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Spengle, thanks for joining in here. It’s brave for a brand to dive in to the bear pit that bike fora can be!
<--we are all just people at the end of the day, we all make mistakes etc
if we were running the customer facing aspect of the business, we'd own up, take it on the chin, FIX the problems - whatever they are! put processes in place to ensure it con't happen again, then work our asses off to ensure that we deliver the things we said we would.
Re the reputation, if they sort it, release 3 awesome bikes, deliver close to time, then next year most people won't remember!
One of our team had to fly 9 hours to deliver a pair of wheels because we promised the customer they would have them by a certain date, we've all eaten a pile of crap, now we work to ensure we don't need to!
@spengle are you not worried about the potential damage to your brand by association?
@spengle are you not worried about the potential damage to your brand by association?
from what, Sick putting our wheels on their bikes?
90% of our custom comes from continental Europe already.
If a lifetime warranty, 30 day returns, and a sweet IG feed isn't enough to help tip the UK customers over the edge, then we doubt a brand putting our wheels on their bikes will.
Did we mention the lifetime, no questions, warranty already?
Why is no one trying to drag SRAM, Fox or Shimano into this thread for daring to let Sick bolt their parts to a frame?
Spengle (who apparently offer a lifetime, no questions, warranty!) have no more reason for guilt by association, imo.
Why is no one trying to drag SRAM, Fox or Shimano into this thread for daring to let Sick bolt their parts to a frame?
I was only asking as they are another small company. It was a genuine question.
Personally given the utter shit show that Sick have created I wouldn't want anything I did associated with them.
What frames did marino build for sick?
Unless the hells angels are making use of their tattoo parlour I can see Sick getting into difficulties with their CCC club too & that certainly won't be the sort of attention they want.
Wait a minute...someone actually waited over a year for some Spengle wheels?!?
So, all Sick FS bikes are catalogue bikes from China...most of HT are from Merino...So besides choosing the colours on the frames, they really are just a t-shirts, socks and stickers company...!?! really hope people get their money and these guys stop having the limelight (good or bad) on all platforms and actual great small companies replace these idiots. Even if you were to receive a bike, would you actually want to ride it or would it all be tainted...and I wouldn't certainly but second hand.
Naah, they also designed some custom frames.
Very badly.
But don't be too sad about that, 'cos you'll never get hold of one to have to worry about it failing anyway 😀
A disappointing interview from James (editor on pb). I was contacted by him about 2 months ago. Was asked if I'd like to be featured in the article about sick to which I said yes. He asked and I've given him all the details about my experience with them hoping it'll help my case. I even postponed taking legal action giving them a chance not to go down that route.
Lack of communication with James (pb) made me look him up and when checked his fb profile saw a picture with no other then sick gang posing and him beside them. At that moment I felt that I was messed around by sick and it was just another way of gaining time.
Lack of responses to emails sent to James in trying to get some info on the process became even more stressful than dealing with sick. It is like you reach out to a drowning person and the let go.. ah, well...
After reading Hannah's piece on stw wish I would have helped her as she seems to have put a lot of constructive work in this.
I ordered xxl titanium gnarcissist luxe on 23 March 2018. Have been told that at the time there were only 3 of them "in the wild". I recently found out that there are 20+. Someone has received no23 in February 2019. This got me fuming!
So,.. I'm wondering where the f***k that frame is.. They definitely been getting or got delivery of those frames. As my was ordered this long ago it was definitely in that shipment. I've been told it should be with me any day now. This was all more than half a year ago. I saw a picture of the frame that looked exactly like one I ordered at the time it was supposed to be delivered but was told it was not mine.
I believe I'm the longest standing outstanding customer (prove me wrong) that has no frame, no refund, no communication. They have paid 16k on refunds..yet I haven't received one when requested..
.. And they say it's not a scam. You've scammed me.
Did they honestly think that PB interview was going to be their big comeback?
I remember Evil 'set the record straight' a few years ago in similar fashion "it's not our fault, it's those dodgy manufactures" "we're just a couple of normal guys who wanted to make a bike we wanted to ride, not what the industry told us to" "the big guys wanted us to fail" blah blah blah. They managed to survive it, not sure they're any better now than they were 5-6 years ago, I'd hope so.
The attitude stinks though, they're acting like victims of circumstance, but at any time they could have stopped taking orders, retuned money and just admitted they'd been overwhelmed with the response, but they took the money and then tried to muddle through making it work.
Website is still showing as taking preorders. That they don't do.
Wait a minute…someone actually waited over a year for some Spengle wheels?!?
yeah, a few did (and a few very much didn't), we had a bunch wait over 9 months for the initial drop.
But absolutely key was keeping the customer informed of progress along the way - this did have the the side-effect of reminding them that we were slow, but the majority appreciated and waited 👍
All other things aside, this "wanted us to fail" claim seems odd to me.
A big manufacturer isn't going to care about a pissant little startup selling frames and bikes in the order of 10s. I'm sure the board at Specialized were shitting themselves.
Customers aren't going to want a startup to fail if they're doing something new and exciting, quite the opposite.
The only reason anyone would want them to fail is... well... if they need to take a long hard look at their life choices.
All other things aside, this “wanted us to fail” claim seems odd to me.
Nah, I reckon thats just the narrative they've chosen, they've been telling anyone that would listen that everyone wanted them to fail, trying for the 'no hopers done good' bit. they mention it a fair bit on insta.
A bit like when Millwall fans proudly sing 'no one likes us but we don't care'
Edit
not sure they’re [Evil]any better now than they were 5-6 years ago, I’d hope so.
To be fair to Evil, everything I've been hearing about then in the past year or so, both from customers and elsewhere, seems to indicate that they really have got their shit together.
All other things aside, this “wanted us to fail” claim seems odd to me.
The "h8rz gonna h8" narrative.
The “h8rz gonna h8” narrative.
I'm not certain they could expect much else:
https://dirtmountainbike.com/features/sick-bicycle-co-fighting-talk.html
https://dirtmountainbike.com/features/sick-cycles-mountain-bike-menagerie.html
https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/trail-enduro-bikes/titaniumcarbon-sick-releases-blue.html
All by James S when he was at DIRT and who can forget the beauty of this thread:
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/sick-bikes-and-welding/
All other things aside, this “wanted us to fail” claim seems odd to me.
me too, I think it's a cognitive dissonance thing when your "We don't give any of the ****s" attitude is handed back to you with interest by your customers*
*Customers in the sense of not actually being customers...if you see what I mean...
when checked his fb profile saw a picture with no other then sick gang posing and him beside them.
I'm sure that was back in 2017 when they were cool and stuff, and still media darlings. If they were still mates, I'm sure PB would have sent someone else, as that would be a conflict of interest and you'd just end up with a puff piece and get accused of timing publication simply to counter bad press elsewhere on their behalf.
yeah, a few did (and a few very much didn’t), we had a bunch wait over 9 months for the initial drop.
But absolutely key was keeping the customer informed of progress along the way – this did have the the side-effect of reminding them that we were slow, but the majority appreciated and waited
Spengle get it!
It matters less how late your product is, what matters is how you manage customers expectations and how you communicate with them.
I've a frame on order from a UK manufacturer that's running a few months late, it's slightly frustrating but I'm fully aware of the delays as I'm kept regularly informed.
Another friend ordered a bike that was several months late, each step of the way they were informed of the issues affecting delivery. When you buy from small boutique brands late delivery now seems the norm.
Where Sick continue to fail is with their lack of communication, lies when they do, questionable quality, arrogance, their woe is me attitude with barely a hint of sorrow for customers (and now suppliers). They really are undisputed champions of BS bingo and proud wearers of the emperor's new clothes.
well, if nothing else, at least He's admitted (in one of the articles) that he's realised he shouldn't be doing a customer service role...
I must say, Spengle come out of this looking rather excellent. A professional approach and a sense of humour, too.
I must say, Spengle come out of this looking rather excellent. A professional approach and a sense of humour, too.
did we mention the lifetime, no questions-asked, warranty?
and a sense of humour, too
With wheels that look like that, they need one..
I'm joking!! Seems like a fair response and always a good idea to keep customers informed.
I heard Dave Hinde is going to stock Sick*
(*complete made up bs of course 😋 )
always a good idea to keep customers informed
especially if you offer a lifetime, no questions-asked, warranty.
They offer a lifetime, NQA warranty? Well I never... 🕺
If that titanium/carbon bike is called the Have Blue, the next frame they do should be named "Norwegian Blue".
and a sense of humour, too
With wheels that look like that, they need one..
the word you meant was Gin
😂
For me, one of the most surprising things to come out of this thread is that Spengle employs 47 people. That seems awfully high for a company that makes 3 models of rather niche wheels.
Maybe I’m wrong and half of continental Europe is riding around on 3-spoke wheels, but I can’t imagine there’s an enormous amount of volume there to support such a workforce.
No disrespect intended, @spengle btw. I’m just surprised and curious.
Spengle employs 47 people.
sorry, 48 staff, across sites in the UK, Switzerland, Austria, and Slovakia.
We've got some sweet custom machinery in a 65,000 sq ft factory, one of which took 6 months to get through customs as it was made by a firm that makes parts for missiles!
we've got customers in the US, Europe, Africa, Asia, and Australasia, and about to sign a distribution deal in South America.
We support a race team in the UK, a few competitive enduro racers in the US (4th place at Sea Otter a few weeks ago), and have OEM agreements with 3 manufacturers for 2020 (Sick isn't one of them).
No offence taken @pinetree we are small in the grand scheme of things, but make some really cool products that just happen to look a little quirky 🙂
Is this your CEO Spengle?
our CEO on here? I very much doubt he comes to STW - and if he does, I REALLY hope he doesn't read this thread....
🤣🤣🤣
SB can suck a bag of strap-ons for all I care, but don't XCAD specialize in custom Ti frames? So maybe SB designed the frames, then XCAD have decided to sell more un-badged versions?
Anyway, my Gnarpoon T-shirt arrived. Hurrah!
They offer a lifetime, NQA warranty? Well I never
A No Questions Answered warranty?
Designed is such a strong word, especially seeing as the one in Hannah's article appears to be trying to mimic a brompton at the shock mounts, I'm guessing there wasn't an extensive r&d process with prototypes or days spent optimizing it in FEA.
Wouldn't surprise me if xcad just put anything they owned the rights to on aliexpress. And wouldn't surprise me if sick were incompetent enough to not make sure they owned to rights to the design (or maybe it's something more like the Marino situation).
sick were incompetent enough to not make sure they owned to rights to the design
Of course they did. But the rights belong to sick, and they're not allowed to be called sick anymore because that's someone else, so as the rights belong to sick that same someone else now owns the rights...
I've just read the PB article and this thread.
I don't think they malicious or bad guys. But they seem massively naive and pretty incompetent
Tim: It's cool to make cool things. We built small amounts of profit into the titanium frames, which was then swallowed up, again, out of naivety. VAT, import fees, postage, handling, packaging, the courier's handling and packaging, all of this stuff. That's not part of the problem. We were learning to build the business and it was something we hadn't considered.
Really!!?? I know sod all about business - but surely an import led manufacturing business this would be quite important?
I actually ended up feeling a bit sorry for them (not as sorry as for those who have lost money etc.). They sound like a pair of dafties completely out of their depth.
The scariest bit about that quote is
That’s not part of the problem
It really really is, that at this point they still don't see underpricing as a massive problem just goes to illustrate they're complete morons.
I'm not going to name drop, but some guy from a f*cking huge company drove, we met in Chichester. I sat down and I pulled out my folder of problems. They went, "Is this it? This is the problem that you have? This is business."
Sounds like Brant! The 101 bike guru of 'designed in the UK, manufacturerd aboard'.
we met in Chichester
Sounds like Brant!
I can't believe he's ever been that far south 🙂
It really really is, that at this point they still don’t see underpricing as a massive problem just goes to illustrate they’re complete morons.
It does give credence to the theory that the reason for continuing to offer more pre orders is down to needing funds to pay for the last batch.
In any sensible business plan you'd do a kickstarter to build the brand and sell the first batch with minimal risk. Then go to the bank with a business plan, get a loan and start doing production runs and selling at full price with an actually profit margin.
Being on kickstarter and only offering pre orders every few weeks/months does not in hindsight look like a business that had a healthy cashflow.
sorry, 48 staff, across sites in the UK, Switzerland, Austria, and Slovakia.
@spengle
That's pretty interesting, and I'd have said that many staff makes you actually quite the opposite of "small in the grand scheme of things". I work in the bike industry too and know of some very high profile companies (that sell a lot of bikes) who do not have that many people working for 'em.
Is that 48 within Spengle, or 48 within SPC Technologies? Presuming SPC Technologies (company name given on your Impressum) does some kind of plastics/carbon fibre work for industries other than bike..?
I fully understand if there's stuff you can't/don't want to post publicly - Feel free to ignore me!
I can’t believe he’s ever been that far south
I reckon his ears would go pop if he strayed that far away from the land of flat caps and whippets.
Sounds like Brant! The 101 bike guru of ‘designed in the UK, manufacturerd aboard’.
Amazing he hasn't tried to turn this into some kind of massive marketing ploy, giving out consolation prizes for the unlucky losers.
Amazing he hasn’t tried to turn this into some kind of massive marketing ploy, giving out consolation prizes for the unlucky losers.
I’ve had a few chats with Jordan in the last year. Nothing for a while. Nothing formal. And I don’t think I’ve ever been to Chichester.
I reckon his ears would go pop if he strayed that far away from the land of flat caps and whippets.
I did get a job offer from Wiggle once, but that was never going to work.
Being as @spengle have come out of this looking rather great on here, how about they P-up? Come on.....it's a lovey place (usually) and worth the money 🙂
https://singletrackmag.com/subscribe/
And you get a P, which is like a verified twitter tick or something.
I did get a job offer from Wiggle once, but that was never going to work.
When they were still in Portsmouth I'm guessing?
You seem like a nice bloke, you definitely didn't deserve the purgatory that is Pompey!
So this one looks like the Have Blue? Which looked pretty cool. 650b geometronish thing
"https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/new-design-titanium-carbon-mtb-suspension_60688266270.html?spm=a2700.details.maylikehoz.5.2d6456e5XchZ6C"
And this would be a DFA maybe?
Might be worth trying to stay on top of these, partly for people who wanted the bikes and got screwed but also, might tempt folk like me 😉 I just messaged them to see if this is stock they have or if they're just images of bikes they've made, as window dressing, since they do full custom.
(also now wondering if I could get them to make me a new front triangle for my Remedy, with the same back, frame pivots etc but about 50mm longer and 3 degrees slacker 😉 )
I must say, Spengle come out of this looking rather excellent. A professional approach and a sense of humour, too.
Agreed.
And while they are happy to work with sick bikes again, I’ll bet they don’t give them a credit account 😂👍
Might be worth trying to stay on top of these, partly for people who wanted the bikes and got screwed but also, might tempt folk like me
But isn’t it one of those Alibaba frames that’s creased in the STW article?
This whole thing is like a case study in how not to run a startup.
They did a brilliant job at marketing and initial PR, and they found a nice little niche that could have been profitable had they not massively cocked it all up.
There is some weird stuff in the PB article - for instance they claim that the Paypal disputes procedure is slowing down refunds; this is completely false. This only happens when you refuse the refund in the first place (for example, I've only ever had it go that far in my business when I had evidence from a courier that the customer has signed and received an item, yet they were claiming they hadn't - I wasn't prepared to refund them when they were blatantly lying, so let Paypal sort it out). So, presumably, they're letting the Paypal dispute runs its course with each case, rather than refunding, because they don't have sufficient cashflow to refund instantly.
JP
I remember Evil ‘set the record straight’ a few years ago in similar fashion “it’s not our fault, it’s those dodgy manufactures”
Yeah.. I spent some time at that factory around that time. Spoke to the engineers there. 2 sides to every story. Factories make what brands ask for, you work with them and share responsibility.
Customers aren’t going to want a startup to fail if
they’re doing something new and excitingthey’ve paid money for a preorder, quite the opposite.
FTFY.
they’re complete morons
The evidence supports this.
Having a read of one of the other Sick threads and the topic of the 'Industry Flounce' was brought up.
I remember a few years back when the guy who first started bringing Transition Bikes into the UK had a full-on meltdown and flounce. Ah, they were the days.
This Jordan fella seems to think he is carving a path but this 'Edge Lord' attitude, leading to petulance once called out and dribbling into woe-is-me after reality comes knocking has been done many times before and by better.
The t-shirts they sell are quite good though.
Ahhh Graham! To be fair he was one of the first people to bring mountain bikes into the UK full stop. Marin I think in the early 80's?
But yes, he was easily wound up on here and a lot of people pushed buttons. Back in the full on TJ bullying era as well
Yes interesting T-shirts.
Nah the Transition UK guy was called Jamie.
I believe he had his backside kicked by Kyle (the Transition owner) after Jamie decided to contact someone's boss to whinge about comments made about Jamie's pricing policy.
As somebody in the early stages of building bikes there's a lot to learn here and not anything I want to reproduce.
P.S. I dont sell T-shirts
That t-shirt just screams ‘Jerry of the day’.
They should start with an 'Import It' t-shirt first then the 'Send It' one...
They should start with an ‘Import It’ t-shirt first then the ‘Send It’ one…
Judging from what the Peruvian frame builder has said, I think you’d need to begin with a ‘Pay For It’ one.....
Anyone got a link to the Marino side of the story or was this just someone e-mailing him?
Member
As somebody in the early stages of building bikes there’s a lot to learn here and not anything I want to reproduce.
P.S. I dont sell T-shirts
I think it's the perfect business model for you to follow.
I'll come in as a second director, and then we can fund our lavish, jewel-encrusted stem, tat' covered lifestyle with all our ill gotten gains 😉
Anyone got a link to the Marino side of the story or was this just someone e-mailing him?
Ive seen comments and screenshots on Steel Is Real Facebook group and I think the Singletrack Mag one too but can’t see much now. Here is one
Ive seen comments and screenshots on Steel Is Real Facebook group and I think the Singletrack Mag one too but can’t see much now. Here is one
The link you followed may be broken, or the page may have been removed.
There's a screenshot on p15 of the thread. Wonder if the Sick boys have magically found him some money on condition he takes the post down?
@pinetree SPC is the mother company, we have manufacturing and engineering entities in Austria and Slovakia, but all ultimately part of the same group.
We've invested pretty heavily in our technical capabilities including a carbon plotter and assorted machinery, we can produce other items as well (Drone wings?) but our core is the wheel range <--- yes I did say range....
Being as @spengle have come out of this looking rather great on here, how about they P-up? Come on…..it’s a lovey place (usually) and worth the money 🙂
done
the team here are 4 months into a review, so maybe you can read about us, without it being written by us 🙂
And while they are happy to work with sick bikes again, I’ll bet they don’t give them a credit account 😂👍
We are Swiss, we've got the finance side of things on lock!
We are Swiss, we’ve got the finance side of things on lock!
Touché!
Came across all of this business a few days ago when I saw one of their frames for sale on eBay. The whole thing is shocking.
Their Facebook page lists their business address as a tattoo parlour over near Brighton. If it was me waiting for a two grand refund, I'd be inclined to go and hold their tattoo equipment to ransom.
If it was me waiting for a two grand refund, I’d be inclined to go and hold their tattoo equipment to [s] ransom [/s] their testicles
Ftfy
done
Bloody hell, there's folk on here have been freeloading for years you know and there you go, putting them all to shame
From FB via PB
I have waited for a refund from these cancerous polyps on the anus of humanity for months.In the end I took them to court and a CCJ was issued against them.This was also ignored and they are fast running out of time before the court appointed bailiffs turn up to seize their property to pay the debt.ORDER NOTHING FROM THESE LYING,INCOMPETENT CRETINS!!!!
Bonus points for the description in the opening sentence.