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My car was recently written off and I will use money to buy some bike upgrades. (Gone into co car so don't need the cash) and want to make the bike pretty bling and perform better.
What are the best wheels for all round riding, long distance, uplift days etc
Should have some change to sort the suspension too... not planning to do anything sensible with the windfall!
Carbon, with a lifetime crash replacement warranty.
If I had no limit it'd be zipp 3zero moto rims, on an onyx vesper silent rear hub. Mmmmmm. 😎
Depends on the budget, if you're not going above about £500 then I'd stick to DT Swiss
I have some nice carbon wheels- very light, stronger than most wheels, weren't too terribly expensive. But I also have a second set of still fairly nice alu wheels with tougher tyres on for uplifts, foreign trips etc, when I'm going to be bashing things harder and more often. The ultimate wheels are more wheels, for me!
If
Front and rear bontrager carbon in the sale. Old school 23mm rims for XC goodness for < £450 boost hubs though. Got a pair on my Cotic Cascade
https://flic.kr/p/2nrrsjE
I’ve not had carbon wheels - I think they have fairly mixed opinions on them. So good, some bad.
For an all rounder that has a good strength to weight ratio it’s hard to look past a DT Dwiss XM481 rim for me. Touch wood I’ve not damaged one in 4.5 years of using them (in 27.5 and 29er). Nice to build with too.
Then put them on whatever your choice of hubs are. For bling and with unlimited money I’d probably get some i9 Hydras.
In the real world I’d go Hope Pro 4 or DT Swiss 240 or 350 (depending on budget).
Budget...?
If they absolutely 100% have to be carbon, and you've got the funds, then either Crank Brothers Synthesis or the Zipp 3Zero Moto. Anything else too stiff, unforgiving, or simply no lighter or better than decent alloy rims.
Personally just go for your hubs of choice, and pick a nice rim and spokes, and build them yourself... That or some high end Mavic wheels to suit... Say what you like about their proprietary parts, lack of backup and difficulty of getting hold of spare parts... Mavic's ride quality is always second to none in my experience. 👍🏻
Budget?! I dunno, got 3.5k to spend on upgrades so thinking:
2K on wheels
1.2k on forks
300 on bling parts (bar stem etc)
Heard nice things about crank bros, or maybe SC reserve?
Newmen Evolutuon A 30.
Lighter than anything mentioned above, carbon included, tough, well made, near silent
I would say some DT 240 hubs, with some light spokes on a DT rim of your choice.
Carbon are pointless IMO. Most ride worse than alloy wheels & don’t actually weigh much less now. And they break, a lot, in my experience.
This is from someone with a set of 240’s on some WeAreOne Factions with Aerolite spokes.
Budget?! I dunno, got 3.5k to spend on upgrades so thinking:
2K on wheels
1.2k on forks
300 on bling parts (bar stem etc)Heard nice things about crank bros, or maybe SC reserve?
What's your current parts that are fitted? And no rear shock?
Xrc1200s
Or
Tune hubs, berd spokes, Newmen or ax lightness rims?
Carbon, with a lifetime crash replacement warranty.
So long as they're not DTSwiss with their " but you hit a rock" warranty.
What are the best wheels for all round riding, long distance, uplift days etc
Is this 1 or 2 Sets you are planning on buying? Use case 2 & 3 seem polar opposite in terms of requirements.
1240 grams & only £2200
i29 rims
Personally I'd send my forks & shock off for a service and custom tune & buy a 1500g or less DT Swiss wheelset.
Budget?! I dunno, got 3.5k to spend on upgrades so thinking:
2K on wheels
1.2k on forks
300 on bling parts (bar stem etc)
Far be it for me to tell you how to spend your money, but as per Hob Nob's advice above, beyond about £5-600 on a pair of wheels (probably DT 350 or 240 hubs on your choice of their rims), it is barely even a law of diminishing returns in terms of performance, but more of a game of trail centre car park bragging rights! Carbon rims are in most cases, an expensive way of making your bike worse to ride. There's very few carbon rims that actually ride well, and those that do are crazy money and still don't offer any real performance benefit over decent alloy rims.
Forks wise... Absolutely buy the best you can afford, and also get them custom tuned to you and your requirements too... Same applies for the rear shock. These things, good tyres, brakes with great modulation and getting all your contact points just so, will make all the difference to the ride.
You don't say what your bike or spec is currently so hard to say exactly how far I'd go, but I'd say there's better things to spend an extra £1500 on than blingy wheels.
Thanks qwerty they look great. Will see if they can meet the 'trail' element I need.
DTSwiss XMC1200 with Berd spokes.
1250g, all mountain/enduro capable.
Always think it's pretty interesting that a lot of the anti-carbon comments have polarised to unquantifiables. Honestly can't tell the slightest difference between my two main wheelsets- my EX511s and my Lightbicycles- in use other than the weight. I'd put actual money on a pepsi taste test. Both were built by me with the same spokes on the same hubs and occasionally run with the same tyres.
Wheels are a system thing, it's not that often that we change just one thing. I changed an alu roval rim for a LB carbon one, and more recently I changed a DT carbon rim for an EX471, but even then they both went from factory wheelbuilds to diy by me wheelbuilds so it's not directly equivalent. And both alu and carbon were broken in much the same way, by tanning them off a rock 😉
But, I do agree with the diminishing returns thing. And the bigger thing about wheels feeling different is that it's not money related, or even an absolute, you could spend a fortune on a set of wheels and have them be very very stiff, or, very compliant, regardless of material and you could like or dislike either or not care.
But any wheel can break.
i have been running Zipp 3Zero Moto wheels for 18 months or so, thrown everything at them and in that time i have broken just one spoke... otherwise they have been bomb proof. They are more of an Enduro wheel, so a bit heavier than some, but make up for it by being excellent.
Crank Bros Synthesis are also very good and come with industry9 hubs.
2K will get you either of the above.
If you want alloy, the new Stans wheels with M-Pulse hubs sound like a good bet.
Zipp 3Zero Moto
Those £2000 wheels weigh more than my perfectly serviceable £300 Hunt Trail Wide's...
+1 for mboy & hobnob's comments here
Wheels are one of the worst examples of diminishing returns.
As mentioned above, pick some nice hubs of your choice, get DT XM481 rims (or maybe the Newmen wheels), and you'll never look back.
Plenty of more useful places to spunk the rest of that wad.
Tell us what spec your bike is now?
Sixth Element carbons on hubs of your choice.. I've got 2 sets on my bikes and my better half has as well, along with 3 of my friends. They are really really strong. A serial wheel destroyer in the alps hasn't managed to break on yet. (Last time he broke a wheel he bought a DT Swiss wheel at way too much and destroyed it on the next run..)
IF you do break one, which I did on at 40mph on a firetrack liaison in Les Arcs this year, no questions asked replacement. (for reference, I hit a huge rock in the middle of the track, wheel cracked but didn't kill me. Universal opinion of the group was I'd have needed heli lift if it had been alloy.)
Ultimate?
Probably Zipp 3 motos because Im focussed on stability and composure in rough natural trails.
I wonder what an alu version of the wide, flat concept would be like or even if its viable from an engineering perspective?
What are the best wheels for all round riding, long distance, uplift days etc
FOr your 2k budget you could get some super bling Santa Cruz Reserve rims on i9 hydra hubs...
I too don't get the "carbon is crap" logic...
My hunt trail wides were awful for any aggressive riding - soft and spongy...
My carbon wheels (sc reserves) are stiff and direct, and light... they fmade the bike feel better tbh!
DrP
I too don’t get the “carbon is crap” logic…
I had Roval carbon on my Spesh and while the front was OK and mostly trouble free, the rear would not keep straight, wouldn't keep tension and puled a couple of spokes (maybe the same one twice) even after I stripped it, and re-laced with brand new spokes and nipples. Granted it's a sample of one, but I'm not aware that Roval have a bad rep for their carbon wheels? I'm not in hurry to get another set.
agree with all the carbon rim haters - not worth the money, more fragile, worse ride.
Have to disagree on the generic "carbon wheels ride worse than aluminium" argument... 10 years ago, absolutely, now though? Much less so.
I've recently gone from some Hunt XC Wide Alloy wheels to their new Proven Carbon Race XC's and the difference is instantly notable. They're not much lighter (about 130g) but straight away I noticed a difference. They are far more compliant over the rough stuff, yet the bike now feels so much more precise than it did before. I can hold a line far better and actually had to add a click of rebound damping as they felt that lively compared to before. Yes the new wheels are wider (30mm vs 25mm) so not identical rim spec, but all the same, I am super, super impressed with them. Bargain for the price as well with a lifetime crash replacement scheme.
I've had some Reserve wheels for 3.5 years now and some Light Bicycle carbon wheels for a few years before that. If my bike disappeared and I had a pile of cash to replace it, I'd struggle to justify buying the Reserve rims again. I like how they ride and I like how tough they are. I've broken one front in exceptional circumstances and one rear in questionable circumstances and had them both replaced under the lifetime warranty. I truly believe I would have got through a lot more alloy rims in this time period. But at £650 a rim now vs say £99ish for your choice of Alloy DT Swiss rim, it's difficult to justify the carbon. With limited money I'd spend it elsewhere. If money was truly no concern, I'd still pick the Reserves over anything alloy.
My EXT ERA forks on the other hand would get the cash splashed on them again in a heartbeat.
If I had no limit it’d be zipp 3zero moto rims, on an onyx vesper silent rear hub. Mmmmmm. 😎
Unmute, and turn the volume right up, can just about hear them. £575 retail though.
DTSwiss XMC1200 with Berd spokes.
1250g, all mountain/enduro capable.
So long as you have €300 spare each time you hit a rock and break.
I too don’t get the “carbon is crap” logic…
My hunt trail wides were awful for any aggressive riding – soft and spongy…
My carbon wheels (sc reserves) are stiff and direct, and light… they fmade the bike feel better tbh!
That's the thing... You're at the end of the scale that buys into the "stiffer=better" mantra... Just like a lot of people who aren't pushing their equipment to the envelope day in day out (neither am I to be fair, but I work with people who do).
I know that looking at what the pro's run on their bikes has traditionally been a contentious issue, a pro paid to run something because of contractual issues can be misleading. But in this day and age, where for some time the top riders have had a lot more say over the parts they run on their own bikes (to the point of running non-sponsor correct parts, often blacked out at times), you'll see almost entirely the top guys run alloy wheels from one of 2 possibly 3 brands with a reputation for providing strong but forgiving wheels, despite the plethora of more expensive carbon wheels on the market.
Probably Zipp 3 motos because Im focussed on stability and composure in rough natural trails.
I wonder what an alu version of the wide, flat concept would be like or even if its viable from an engineering perspective?
I get it, and I too have wondered similarly. The thing is, because of the natural properties of the aluminium alloys used in modern rims and the profiles that they use, you'll find a typical alloy rim from the likes of DT Swiss exhibits enough flex and forgiveness as to render the single wall construction of something like the Zipp Moto's largely redundant when using a more forgiving material. Seriously... Which is why, given I have been offered both at manufacturers own cost prices (forget trade prices!), I still choose to run alloy rims myself. I have ridden most of the previous generation carbon rims and was left hugely underwhelmed, I know the current crop are better than they were, but at the same time the Alloy rim market received a significant shot up the backside and for a fraction of the cost still... 👍🏻
The current crop of high end alloy rims are pretty revolutionary, to the point we'd all be shouting about this new wonder material if we'd just discovered them! You can run a 500g 29er alloy rim that's as strong as a 600g+ 26" rim from 15 years ago, is only 30g heavier than the equivalent carbon rim but 1/4 of the price, more forgiving and easier to build too...
For those who don't get it... Stiffer DOES NOT equal better... It's about finding the right stifness/strength/weight ratio for the job in hand. Unless you're a 1990's 4X racer (modern 4X races are typically run on quite bumpy courses, to the point where suspension travel and larger wheel diamters are becoming more important than gate speed), a stiffer wheel does not automatically equal a better wheel...
I’ve recently gone from some Hunt XC Wide Alloy wheels to their new Proven Carbon Race XC’s and the difference is instantly notable. They’re not much lighter (about 130g) but straight away I noticed a difference. They are far more compliant over the rough stuff, yet the bike now feels so much more precise than it did before. I can hold a line far better and actually had to add a click of rebound damping as they felt that lively compared to before. Yes the new wheels are wider (30mm vs 25mm) so not identical rim spec, but all the same, I am super, super impressed with them.
I work with athletes sponsored by above said brand that will tell you differently... It all depends on the agenda that any company is trying to push at the time. Don't get me wrong, the Proven wheels are some of the better carbon wheels on the market, but Hunt's own alloy XC wheels are more forgiving like for like. Other factors will have been at play... Tyre pressures, terrain, use of any inserts, weather conditions etc... There's so many variables... NOT to mention of course the rim width argument that again, wider does not necessarily equal better... And then you have the onslaught of tyre inserts too, where again the "bigger = better" mantra has been pushed ad infinitum!
I know and understand that I'm in a rarefied position, working as I do for a major brand in the industry, several of the UK's (and some of the world's) top riders rely on me for my insight at times, and I spend plenty of time with industry stalwarts and Joe Public alike... I don't profess to know everything, but I do know that working with those I do, I don't need to have even ridden the products myself to feel confident in saying I'm many thousands of miles or months/years ahead of Joe Public on internet forums in terms of their own research, as to what actually works and what doesn't at the cutting edge of the sport...
Which is why, confidently, I can say most of the top guys are running good quality alloy rims (or wheelsets, with flex designed in mind such as Mavic with their lower spoke counts) that are often narrower than the perceived wisdom (the DH boys are ALL on 25mm internal rims pretty much for good reason), usually running either the smallest available inserts or often none at all (the larger the tyre insert, the less the tye pressure can be used as a tuning tool, just like jamming your fork full of volume tokens!), and often at higher than fashionable tyre pressures... But that's the best thing about Elite level racers, they have little time for fashion, and only care for what works and gets them results! 👍🏻
For what it's worth... Though I've not ridden either (though have had the opportunity, but my health and personal circumstances have conspired against me in the last year and a bit), I am still very confident to put the Zipp 3Zero moto and the Crank Brothers Synthesis carbon wheels head and shoulders above their competition, purely from a design point of view... Similarly I know people who have raved about the excellent warranty from Santa Cruz with their Reserve rims and yet still given up on them because though the warranty has been excellent, they need to be able to rely on a set of wheels to finish a race weekend rather than leaving them in the lurch... An alloy DT Swiss EX471 or EX511 might not finish a race weekend in the same shape as it started, but they're FAR more likely to be able to complete it than most alloy rims from a collective experience... 👍🏻
As always, YMMV and you're free to vote with your feet and be someone else's BETA tester by all means...
An alloy DT Swiss EX471 or EX511 might not finish a race weekend in the same shape as it started, but they’re FAR more likely to be able to complete it than most alloy rims from a collective experience… 👍🏻
Too late to edit the original post... But after my first day back at work in 5 weeks post lump removal surgery, I've had a couple of drinks to celebrate... Anyway...
I meant "FAR more likely to be able to complete it than most CARBON rims" not alloy of course... Apologies.
DrP said:
My hunt trail wides were awful for any aggressive riding – soft and spongy…
mboy said:
For those who don’t get it… Stiffer DOES NOT equal better… It’s about finding the right stifness/strength/weight ratio for the job in hand.
I'm no pro and I'm not racing, consequently I have my bike setup so it's a very safe & confident ride, lot's of sag and quite slow rebound. Enduro-rated tyres (lots of rocks & roots) and I've always run forgiving (and previously low spoke count) wheels. I'm also prepared to accept them needing 'maintenance' from my ham-fisted abilities.
I am though from a motorbike background, and there also ran my bikes soft & forgiving.
I'm lucky enough to have a pair of Enve M70 rims on Chris King ISO hubs, and while they aren't the lightest things in the world (in my experience) they have been absolutely bulletproof. They were originally on my hardtail and have spent the last 18months on my rigid trail bike, so they've taken a good hammering through some fairly poor line choices and too low pressures, and they are still straight as you like and spin perfectly.
Yes expensive, no doubt about that, but if you go second hand, they are available for under £1k and while that might not be 'value' compared to Hunt or even Hope Hoops they do everything so damn well that I think it's justifiable.
another persons views on wheels.... (albeit for a slightly different application. Racing rather than trail riding)
Wheel stiffness makes such a difference to ride quality, and from experience, grip levels.
On my Spur, I chop between two wheel sets. The WA1 carbon wheels come in at 1450g & even at that weight, are bloody stiff. On dry summers day, riding flow style trails, they feel bloody great, the bike zips along & snaps out of corners like nothing I’ve ever ridden before, but venture off to steep, rough, proper off piste style trails, with nasty off camber sections, the bike becomes a right handful to hold lines & feels far more nervous than it should do. Right now as we transition to winter, the wheel stiffness is definitely not a good thing either when trying to find (any) grip.
The second set of wheels is basically the same, but with a set of DT XM421 rims. They weigh about 100g more in total & so far, have actually needed less attention than the WA1 wheelset in terms of keeping them true. They feel softer, the bike feels less lively on flow trails (not actually any slower) and it significantly tones down the nervous feel of the bike on the steeper, rougher stuff.
As a result, I generally run the alloy rimmed wheels for 9 months of the year, as the bike is better for it.
On my bigger bikes, it’s alloy only for similar reasons. I still have in the garage roof annex a graveyard of DT, Enve, LB & i9 carbon rims to remind me, carbon wheels are not a good idea. By comparison, a set of XM481’s I built up in 2017 have only just had a new rear rim (cracking round eyelets) after a huge amount of use & abuse.
another persons views on wheels….
Interesting video. I've seen a couple of his previous vids and struggled to stay engaged TBH, but he gives some good insights there.
I'm mismatching my front and rear rims quite often these days.
Usually an EX511 or EX471 on the rear and a less-stiff E13 TRS on the front (got them cheap ages ago but they're pretty good).
the Berd Hawk 27 must be pretty close to the ultimate trail wheel.
1340g, approved for xc to enduro, lifetime crash replacement on the rim, i9 hydra hubs and berd spokes.
not sure what they cost, but if i crashed my car i’d love to replace it with a pair.
my I9 hubs on WR1 carbon union rims are coming upto 3 years old this year, only just replaced the bearings in the hub shell, two years of furlough riding pretty much everyday in the height of pandemic, numerous peak district smashing - never touched a thing on them, not even had to retension a spoke
rims are still totally intact (marks etc and come with lifetime warranty so dont care) and they are bloody good light stiff wheels - i can highly highly recommend them as i do give wheels a good bashing, to have these almost 3 years and not touched is pretty much amazing for me - dear yes but totally worth it
Which I9 hubs? I quite liek the idea behind the Hydra.
yep hydra's they've been incredible - i cant fault them at all, hands down the best hub out back ive ever used, the engagement is silly - they are totally reliable, and the rear bearings lasted 2.5 years without touching them - literally just swapped them out, all pawls and springs etc still fine, freehub bearings are still smooth - ive just bought the bearing press tools as i see ill own these for a long time - they are fantastic wheels - the guys at creation cycles built mine up and its easily the best wheel build ive ever had, whether thats down to them or the quality of the spokes/rims etc i have no idea but to not even have to true a wheel in 3 years abuse is some going for me