UK Drag lift / T Bar - when will it happen?

Cairngorm has a conveyor belt uplift - shared between skiing and biking depending upon season. Seems to be quite a simple thing but I don't know how costs would stack up for a longer uplift.

In any case, more Ebikes surely means the number of riders seeking uplift is diminishing?

Before it burned down for the final time, there were plans to use the T-bar at Sheffield ski village to access some DH trails on the back side.

Hillend dry slope did a thing years ago with that attachment for the bikes and t-bars. Never heard anything more since. Assumed it had never taken off.

I think @scotroutes has nailed it. Ebikes will stop growth in demand for uplift services over coming years. Only hardcore DH racers who don't want ebikes will be interested.

The UK is a small country, and there are a very small number of MTBers. The weather also dictates our bigger hills are only suitable for MTBing for part of the year.

I'm not convinced there are enough people who would pay what would be required to install & maintain the infrastructure to ride the same relatively small trail centre repeatedly. I would love to be proved wrong though 😁

Have used a button lift at Oberammergau with my bike. It’s odd, but works. We’ve a few drag lifts in England where I ski, but the lease on the land prevents us from using them for anything other than snowsports.

Hillend worked well, but I think the skiers, golfers, walkers and possibly the Ranger Service all complained about the bikers accessing the hill using the lift.
I think the complaints meant not enough money was being made so the DH runs were closed. A shame really as it was ok for the time.

Whatever gets considered, it'll cost a fortune to plan, get permission and build and it'll be an eye sore for a long time.

I suspect as mentioned, the demand for this isn't really growing as ebikers are big these days and those who do want/need this hasn't really grown - the places that do existing uplift seem to be servicing the numbers keen on this kind of thing.

I am convinced that in the right situation, a Bike Park fuelled by T-Bar/Poma/Drag style lifts could absolutely clean up.

Don't you kind of need a long, smoothish, straight route directly up a hill (which also has enough elevation and scope for fun trails to be built) without any other obstructions? That right situation is all about geography rather than how viable the imaginary business might be...

The advantage of trucks 'N' trailers is they can adapt to different geographical situations, drag lifts need a specific site, Gondola/chair lifts do require a bit of construction, and not inconsiderable maintenance, stacked up against a couple of transits and trailers I'm not sure which is actually the cheapest option...

I'm fairly certain that lifts are not profitable without snowsports users. Even the ones in Whistler and Morzine only just about break even in summer. Even in winter, it's only a couple of peak weeks that are profitable.

Not sure about the eBike thing, last time I was at BPW there was loads of them using the uplift.

I'd settle for some indoor dirt jumps and we can't even get that.

WRT e-bikes, one day last year, the "fast" group at the White Room covered 8000m vertical. You'd need five or six e-bike batteries to do that.

Also, as far back as I can remember there have been talk of lift served MTB trails in the UK, Innerleithen being the main one 15 years ago, but nobody seems to be able to make the sums add up.

Not sure about the eBike thing, last time I was at BPW there was loads of them using the uplift.

Shhh, they'll come for you.

I’m fairly certain that lifts are not profitable without snowsports users. Even the ones in Whistler and Morzine only just about break even in summer. Even in winter, it’s only a couple of peak weeks that are profitable.

That's what I'm sure of too. The lifts only run for us bikers as it means the local businesses break even or make a small profit over the summer rather than the place be empty. The big money is in the ski season.

An easier solution to implement would be some kinda motor you just bolt onto your fork brace that pulls the bike up an existing fire road. At the top take it off and pop it in a big bucket/on a zip wire back to the bottom of the hill. Some investment in motors/batteries, no need to spend an absolute fortune on a lift

The one in spa works well

I’d settle for some indoor dirt jumps and we can’t even get that.

417 has some

Used a T-bar in Bad Wildbad in the Black Forest in about 2007. It worked OK for a fairly short series of tracks (longer ones available off the funicular).

I would be surprised if skiing there paid the bills, but the bike park wasn’t exactly heaving (or that big) so maybe the lifts were a legacy thing?

I think the biggest drawback in the UK would be the short runs available- being on a drag lift for the height gain at Innerleithen or BPW would be hard, as would maintaining that length of lift and lift track.

WRT e-bikes, one day last year, the “fast” group at the White Room covered 8000m vertical. You’d need five or six e-bike batteries to do that.

That had to be mostly uplift.

Even the ones in Whistler and Morzine only just about break even in summer. Even in winter, it’s only a couple of peak weeks that are profitable.

ISTBC, but didn't Whistler make more money from the summer biking a couple of years back? Not sure if this was just lift passes or the whole accommodation etc. Something todo with the number of  lost skiing days due to the weather as I understand.

Probably completely wrong 🙄

one day last year, the “fast” group at the White Room covered 8000m vertical

In the UK. Think you'd need significant investment in hill for that

I’d settle for existing venues building easier cycle up paths with a full hard packed surface and big wide switchbacks to preserve speed.

I prefer uplifts but starting to balk at the cost so happy to push and cycle up. Not remotely interested in climbing so want it to be as easy as possible.

For example BPW used to allow you to cycle up the same route used by the uplift. I can see why they put a stop to it, but to cycle to the top of the hill now involves an awful lot more faff and effort if you’re not on a motorbicycle.

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trail_rat
Free Member

In the UK. Think you’d need significant investment in hill for that

Perfectly doable at nevis, just that in practice most people just don't want to do 12+ runs, that's into "oops I have worn holes in my flesh" territory on the dh even without crashes.

How long will it take for some braindead to twang one of these things off their bike ripping a kids face off or they get dragged up the hill by their heels getting debowled in the process. There will be high fiving at the LLP as they sue for twelvety billion trillion pounds and get the whole thing shut down because there wasn't a sign saying don't pour hot coffee over your skin or something.

This is the glorious UK we live in. The level of skull is unbelievable and unmatched!

I’d settle for some indoor dirt jumps and we can’t even get that.

The reason they are so rare is commercial landlords (canny as ****) don't want to be left with a building full of earth that needs shifting if the tenants business goes tits up.

sharkattack
Full Member
I’d settle for some indoor dirt jumps and we can’t even get that.

Pretty sure Revolution bike park are planning to build indoor dirt jumps in the near future

We have several possible uplifts already. As well as Fort William & Aviemore - there are The Lecht, Glenshee & Glencoe.

I've done The Lecht & Glenshee and there was hardly ever anybody else using them.

The Lecht didn't run it this year. The cost of running & staffing a chairlift presumably can't be recouped by the odd biker buying a ticket.

E-Bikes will prevent any chance of further development. The battery capacities and range are increasing every year & if that's not enough then you can buy a 2nd battery or range extender.

Hopefully never, I HATE the bloody things when skiing/snowboarding and always struggle to stay attached when getting onto them at the bottom! Can only imagine the carnage if I tried to do that on a bike...

The lifts only run for us bikers as it means the local businesses break even or make a small profit over the summer rather than the place be empty.

There is also the (not insignificant) economic benefit of it allowing businesses to keep some core staff on for the full year, rather than having to recruit and train in the autumn.

Chairlifts are more expensive and intrusive but have the advantage of use by walkers and sightseers too. Widening the market attracts more folk/income to the area. I just don't see the financial case stacking up otherwise. The folk behind the Innerleithen project knew this. 

You'd think if anywhere could do it, BPW would/could. Replace a fleet of Transits that I guess need pretty constant maintenance, maintaining the access road, fuel costs, driver costs etc. But then from what I can remember, to go straight up from the visitor centre at BPW to the top is fairly steep so a drag type lift wouldn't work (or end in absolute carnage)? Guess you still need a fleet of buses and drivers on hand when/if something borks with the lift as well so may as well stick with what you have...

You’d think if anywhere could do it, BPW would/could.

I was about to post this. With the number of people who visit BPW each year, they must have the best business case in the UK if there is one? Chairlift rather than drag lift but they have it here - https://www.bikeparkwales.com/the-master-plan-q-a

We’ve really done our homework on this one and once you look at it in more detail it really isn’t as obvious a move as you might think . First up is cost, it’s been a few years since we looked at this seriously but £6 million will just about get you there and without the kind of visitor numbers a ski resort gets (around 10-20 X BPW numbers) you would never see a return on that investment. In addition to that, closures due to bad weather would be far more frequent.