[Closed] UK Designed first steel hardtail conundrum...

If you cant decide for yourself, just buy the one in your preferred colour. It really wont matter.

Why steel?

In the finest traditions of STW, I'll recommend something that's not in your remit at all- Carbon 456 can be had for £250 just now. People bang on about the feel of steel, truth is heavy steel frames tend not to have much of that- too much metal in them to be springy and lively. Whereas with the string and glue, you get something more like what people seem to expect from steel, at the expense of looking horrible. Also miles lighter, and more flexible- takes more fork options, more options of messing around with the geometry should you choose... Wouldn't recommend it at £500 I think but at half that, yeah.

YMMV of course 😉

Any of them will do the job nicely.

Will throw my 2p worth in though, and give a vote for the Genesis. I've got one, I've had a go on most of the others too. The Genesis feels the best allrounder IMO. Suits the kinds of trails you plan on riding mostly very well.

Northwind does make a good point about steel. It's not always what it's cracked up to be. Steel as a material has properties that suit it better to some applications than others, but they're not always apparent, due to a frame's design quite often. The Genesis definitely "feels" the most classically steel of the bunch. That's not to say it immediately makes it amazing, most of the reason it rides so well is the geometry, but in comparison the 456's and the PA's I've had a go on have felt heavier and less lively by comparison.

Another vote for the Genesis - I can't fault mine and it does everything I want it to do - I tried a 456 and it felt like a bus in comparison. I'm 6'4" and the 20 1/2" frame suits me perfectly

This makes me feel old 😕 When I started there [b]was[/b] only steel hardtails! It was a big thing when ally frames appeared, never mind full suss!

From your list (and IME) 456, or PA.

No experience of genesis and would choose a blue pig (mk1) over the piglet.

This makes me feel old When I started there was only steel hardtails! It was a big thing when ally frames appeared, never mind full suss!

I/You/We ARE old!

I got my first Mountain Bike in 1990, but started riding offroad and actually getting into it in 1994. Ally hardtails were something to be desired indeed, I remember lusting after both an Orange E2 and a Ozone Oxygen in an MBUK grouptest. They weren't far off Ti frame prices!

Funny how things change...

The PA is the best bike on your list. By a country mile.

I'd buy another today if Mike made a 29er....

Hey! Mike! Build a 29er.

Rather than a 456, then I would choose the ragley as it's a later step down the line in Brant's evolution as a bike designer, or why not the 456 evo?

When I started, 1987, you could hardly buy a frame.

Not on your list but...... [url= http://www.ukbikesdepot.com/m15b0s717p5232/SARACEN_Kili_Flyer_Cro-Mo_Mens_Mountain_Bike_Frame_2011-_Aqua ]uk designed, some say uk built, filet brazed......[/url] 🙂

Why UK designed?

No-one mentioned Pipedream Sirius. Thought I'd mention it as I had one, so obviously it's the best.

But seriously... They do make nice frames.

That Kili Flyer is lovely and an absurdly good deal to boot; if I could afford a new frame that would certainly be on my list.

I'd second the Pipedream frames, I've got a Sirius and the Scions are a good option too (essentially the same without the sliding dropouts).

Another one not on your list,but it should be
[url= http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5038/7001494180_6677ab0a66_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5038/7001494180_6677ab0a66_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/stue1/7001494180/ ]stantonslackline620[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/stue1/ ]StuE1[/url], on Flickr

http://dirt.mpora.com/news/2012-dirt-100-stanton-bikes-slackline.html

No Orange P7 on the list? A glaring omission! Far better than an on one IMHO. They're fantastic frames!

Those Stanton's look bloody gorgeous too

I would buy full sus. If you'd asked about buying a full sus, I'd have suggested you buy a hardtail.

Why British designed? If you'd asked for a foreign brand suggestion, I'd have said go for British, it's more patriotic.

Steel? Why steel, why not a ti/carbon hybrid custom build? If you'd asked about that, I'd have suggested steel.

Off the peg? Why not go custom? Unless you're asking about custom, in which case I'd definitely consider just buying off the peg.

A particular model? No, there's no difference between any of them, bar colour. Unless you're asking if they're all the same, in which case the answer is NO, they are massively different, colour is just the start of it.

And while I'm here, how about some gratuitous 'back in the day's stuff about how I started riding back in the mid-80s on a custom Chas Rourke frame with drops. My, how things have changed. But actually they've stayed the same. Endlessly...

So, to sum up: whatever you ask about, you need something else. No matter how long you've been riding bikes, I've been doing it for longer, and with more nicheness. Bikes are all the same and it's mostly about riding them, but choosing the right one is crucial. Always buy something with Evo in the name because it's better and whatever Brant designed most recently is bestest.

Have you considered a custom carbon/ti fusion hybrid, rigid, 650B Niner as a more practical alternative?

:-/

I've had my genesis for just over a week and I like it a lot.
After sending out numerous emails to stockist on the website c and n cycles in redhill were the only shop that offered any kind of decent discount. They don't hold any stock from what i could see but they had the bike ready for collection within 24 hours.
I'm 6'2" and got the 20.5 it fits great.

ps: And failing that, the Stanton Slackline, which is a bit like a unicorn in that people claim that it exists, but no-one actually owns one. Or has ridden one. Or seen a review of one. So it must be ace. 😉

And you omitted the bike I own from your list too, a glaring, absurd, omission that could cost you your sanity.

^ 😆 ^

OP, not all the frames [b]YOU[/b] liked come in 19" size, but that'd be a good compromise. 20" if you want to get the most from pedaling, 18" if you want to chuck the bike about a bit.

I would buy full sus. If you'd asked about buying a full sus, I'd have suggested you buy a hardtail.

Why British designed? If you'd asked for a foreign brand suggestion, I'd have said go for British, it's more patriotic.

Steel? Why steel, why not a ti/carbon hybrid custom build? If you'd asked about that, I'd have suggested steel.

Off the peg? Why not go custom? Unless you're asking about custom, in which case I'd definitely consider just buying off the peg.

A particular model? No, there's no difference between any of them, bar colour. Unless you're asking if they're all the same, in which case the answer is NO, they are massively different, colour is just the start of it.

And while I'm here, how about some gratuitous 'back in the day's stuff about how I started riding back in the mid-80s on a custom Chas Rourke frame with drops. My, how things have changed. But actually they've stayed the same. Endlessly...

So, to sum up: whatever you ask about, you need something else. No matter how long you've been riding bikes, I've been doing it for longer, and with more nicheness. Bikes are all the same and it's mostly about riding them, but choosing the right one is crucial. Always buy something with Evo in the name because it's better and whatever Brant designed most recently is bestest.

Have you considered a custom carbon/ti fusion hybrid, rigid, 650B Niner as a more practical alternative?

:-/

That's the best post I have read for a while on here. Though to admit it the Giant the folks on here suggested for me has been a sound bike.

http://www.stantonbikes.com/

Prince Albert Classic - limited edition of the standard bike in 853 steel
Cotic Soul

I've just built up a BFe (frame available at discounted price from Cotic) as my first steel hardtail, designed for playtime fun so strong enough for bigger jumps it's actually my XC bike and has taken me up and down everything I'm capable of running 150/120 adjustable forks. It's been a massive success and I'm delighted with it. Generally you pay a bit more for a Cotic but it's worth t for the design and the quality. Get a test ride (eg 18bikes in Peaks for Soul or BikeBrechfa for BFe...)

Your 26 wheeled options should definitely feature a Soul ... given your height your "outside the box" options should include a Solaris 29er

There is a world of choice out there and certainly more than one good option for you, have fun ...

ps: And failing that, the Stanton Slackline, which is a bit like a unicorn in that people claim that it exists, but no-one actually owns one. Or has ridden one. Or seen a review of one. So it must be ace.

And you omitted the bike I own from your list too, a glaring, absurd, omission that could cost you your sanity.

HA HA HA Heads over to Stanton site to find every model bar one "coming soon" .

Amazing, thanks guys, loads more response than I expected. BadlyWiredDog, that post was poetry.

I've considered the carbon 456 but it seems to get mixed reviews, some saying they are epically stiff and uncomfortable... Still an option but desperately trying to whittle it down.

The reason for UK designed steel is that I have to start somewhere and I want a bike pretty damn soon so I gotta keep the field fairly narrow.

The Saracen actually looks bloody amazing, I had completely forgotten about that. It's caused me a bit of a problem!

Looks like the Genesis is getting some big thumbs up, its moving up the list.

Doesnt sound like there's too much love for the OnOne's out there. In these cash strapped times it's very difficult not to go with their frankly astonishing deals though!

Something tells me the Piglet would be too slack to climb brilliantly? Or am I wrong?

Oh and I think I will leave 29ers until bike number 5.

Cheers,
H

the on ones are great - they're just a bit too vanilla for the tryhards 😉

Wouldn't want a 456 evo as they have gone all round slack at both ends. Hoping the Piglet will be more upright. However I would sell my nan for one of those original 456s in Beefy Brown with those 80s style decals, just because they look so lovely and brown definitely matches my clothing and personality. Bastards, they sold out about 2 weeks before I had the money for this bike too...

H

PRINCE ALBERT

But then you are quite tall and If I was you i'd be getting an inbred 29er.

Sorry, I left the lap-top lying around and my cat got onto it. That's cats for you, nasty little critters...

PA is a great frame
quality hard wearing paint finish also

Another for BFe here. Built mine with adjustable travel forks and use it for everything ideal for chucking around the lakes and dales.

Doesnt sound like there's too much love for the OnOne's out there.

I've a 456 Summer Season (pic you say? Ok then)

[img] [/img]

Absolutely nothing wrong with them. Really solid despite being 20" and rides great. No problems jumping, going uphill or along or downwards. I'm not recommending it over the others on your list as i've not ridden them.

As a symbol of your cycling credentials there are [i]better[/i] bikes out there, but for smiles per pound???

lovely.

can someone PLEASE sell me a 20" 456 frame in Beefy Brown???

That is all.
H

Id say either the genesis, its a lovely frame, i loved mine till i sold it. Its light, has a bit of the steel 'springiness' and is just fun to ride.

Or maybe the prince albert if you want something a bit stronger. The on ones just dont feel as good from riding my friends bikes.

Or as suggested, the 456 carbon. Thats probably what i would buy

Hazzer, how's about a second hander and get it powder coated? The paint ain't great on them tbh, and steel is the easiest/safest to blast and coat.

What about a steel 29er- Cotic Solaris?

[img] [/img]

slainte 🙂 rob

oh poo bum.

you're all a bunch of bastards.

H

Wouldn't want a 456 evo as they have gone all round slack at both ends. Hoping the Piglet will be more upright.

456 Evo Geometry based on [b]fully extended 150mm fork[/b] as opposed to Piglet geometry which is sagged 120mm fork.

Full info on 456 Evo Geometry here:-

http://www.shedfire.com/tag/456evo/

hazzeryoda - Member

I've considered the carbon 456 but it seems to get mixed reviews, some saying they are epically stiff and uncomfortable...

You want to ignore that one, I can only assume Guy Kesteven was high.

The Saracen actually looks bloody amazing, I had completely forgotten about that. It's caused me a bit of a problem!

bullheart - Member

The PA is the best bike on your list. By a country mile.

I'd buy another today if Mike made a 29er....

Hey! Mike! Build a 29er.

Can I hold you to that? 😉

Mike,

If you build a 29er I'll tear your arm off to get at it*

Just for the record, if you are experimenting in this department I'd love to be a test-pilot.

(*but I'd sew it back on and buy you some flowers as an apology)

Loved my new Solaris this weekend B-)

what about a Sanderson Life? mines with Fox floats love it for XC, short blasts or all day sessions

Sanderson you say?
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7032/6777821517_daaa0e8bde.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7032/6777821517_daaa0e8bde.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/6777821517/ ]Sanderson Breath[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/matt_outandabout/ ]matt_outandabout[/url], on Flickr
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7051/7003528586_c6c1d8818b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7051/7003528586_c6c1d8818b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/7003528586/ ]IMGP2578[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/matt_outandabout/ ]matt_outandabout[/url], on Flickr

Bullheart, the Prince Albert 29'er exists on paper. I'll probably get a couple of samples ordered once the Prince Albert Classic frames are on the water (early next month).

I'm local, I'm lovely and I'm ready to ride it to destruction!

brant - Member
Wouldn't want a 456 evo as they have gone all round slack at both ends. Hoping the Piglet will be more upright.
456 Evo Geometry based on fully extended 150mm fork as opposed to Piglet geometry which is sagged 120mm fork.
Full info on 456 Evo Geometry here:-

Ok, fair call. Interested now! How would you say the ride compares to the piglet? I know the piglet is optimised for 120mm which sounds great. I also like the fact the seat angle steepens with larger frames, surely a plus for climbing for us with gangly proportions?

Also, in case anyone is interested, I have just bought an SLX 10sp group and SLX dics brakeset for the princely sum of £350 from www.bike-components.de well chuffed!

H

 

Looking at the on one website why not just get an inbred. A cheap as chips starting point with forks to 120 mm.

You gave the answer yourself its a starting point. It'll probaly be perfect.

If its not you'll loose about £40? selling it on

That won't be true on a posher frame will it

How about Canadian designed and aluminium. I'm buying on the strength it's geometry is more Brit than Canadian*, and it's a lot lighter than steel bikes.

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/before-i-hit-the-buy-button-is-there-anything-better-which-hardcore-hardtail

*back when all this was fields british bikes tended to be lower BB's and steeper head angles, and canadian bikes were very slack with high BB's (compare the original DMR trailstar or Saracen Zen (69deg head angles and 11.5" BB's) against something like a Cove stiffee (13.1" BB and 66deg HA).

Mike......I have a PA Mk1. All lovely in pink. I'd love to try a big pink 29ery one as well......

PA - bombproof, comfy all-day-rider, and nice paint too.
I use mine for all day in the saddle XC epics, but it was equally at home ragging around the Stile Cop DH tracks 2 weeks ago.

Another vote for Sanderson. The Life is the best of the 5/6 i've had. Runs well with 120mm.

Mike,
I'd also be interested in a 29er PA

Right, still nowhere near the decision! Now wondering about 29ers seeing as I'm tall. Singular swifts look LOVELY!!!

A mate has just bought the Sarcen Zen 2 - Ok it's not steel, but its uk designed, with pretty good spec. He got it for 570 delivered from [url= http://www.singletrackbikes.co.uk/m1b73s2p2485/SARACEN_Zen_2_2011 ]Dave at singletrackbikes.co.uk[/url].