[Closed] UCI Dinosaurs ... more muppetry, Supersapiens ban

Can diabetics not get a TUE for it?

Those who are type 1 can get clearance from the UCI to use the devices

The merits of the devices for non type 1 athletes is a matter of debate

Can diabetics not get a TUE for it?

And if they can't I suspect they will very soon......

Will this be when we discover that 80% of the pros are diabetic asthmatics.

There are all sorts of conditions that fall short of diabetes where a CGM can be useful. What's the reason for the ban? What other monitoring of vitals is banned? Heart rate? Blood oxygen levels via optics, like smart watches do?

Yep I get that TUE will be available... and believe that for non diabetic riders their use will be as frustrating as hell... after a couple of years using libre and following Supersapiens on Facebook, its mostly taught me the human body is amazingly complex and difficult to predict even with this technology!

I just can't understand why its banned... even if you discovered a magic bullet level of blood sugars that turned you into Lance Armstrong maintaing that level mid race would be very hard

Right decision.

Remember how we all moaned that power meters made racing dull as F1, watching one team control every attack by simply riding at 99% and knowing that anyone that jumped them would probably blow up?

Well if your computer can tell you that you're about to bonk then that removes the last little glimmer of hope that something exciting might happen.

May as well just do an FTP test on July the 1st and save us all 4 weeks of TV viewing.

Is the Supersapiens a Libre monitor with different stickers or a completely different system that looks similar?

I did see facebook adverts for this but it appeared to be a Libre, which I'm already using so ended up blocking the adverts as they had no relevance to me.

Found the website, yeah, it appears to be a fancy version of the Libre...the app connects to Garmin, so I'm instantly now wanting to see if I can get similar for Libre to see what it can show.

Unsure why it is worth banning, but I suspect monitoring blood sugar levels to ensure the rider is in top condition for fuelling is maybe going against th UCI's idea of racing being about the humans beating the humans and this is too much of an aid to help the rider know if they are ready to dig in. I'm happy to let them see my data as it will prove inability isn't due to low blood sugar levels!!!

Absolute beast domestiques, or major climbing contenders, drilling themselves to the point of bonking is one of the best things about racing. I'm with the UCI on this one, lets not hook the riders up to a fuel gauge please (legitimate TUES excepted)

As a libre 2 user, having that data streamed to my on-bars device would be as much as a game-changer as having the device itself.

Previously, I would perform a blood test mid-ride (which would take several minutes off the bike). This would give a single reading with no narriative behind it.... Are the sugars going up/down, fast/slow etc. The Libre then added the trend, as it took a reading every 5 minutes, however that requires a manual scanning of the sensor with the device (phone).

Libre 2 now sends me an alert when I break through a defined line (low or high). I then need to scan to get the reading and trend. This is a huge benefit as I can stop bombing/bonking due to a surprise dip in sugar levels.... But its too late (as the low limit is usually set at around 4mmol which is the bottom end of normal). A quick ride through lunch today had no alert, as I didn't go through my set alert-number, but when I scanned I was at 4.1 and dropping fast. Having this data on my bars would be huge in allowing me to take in carbs at the right time to maintain a perfect amount of blood sugar.

For diabetic athletes, this technology is huge. I'm unsure how much it would help a non-diabetic.

Conan..you can get that data on your smar****ch or Garmin now but needs miou miou to link it...DickBarton yep that little watch looks like a godsend for us! I see supersapiens as a testbed for future diabetes tech... as it "isn't " a medical product they can experiment with oddball ideas without regulatory intervention and licensing requirements...

So are the pro peloton all riding round with a phone in their back pocket to make use of this real time data.....

trail_rat
Free Member

So are the pro peloton all riding round with a phone in their back pocket to make use of this real time data…..

... or are the UCI just knocking it on the head before anyone finds a more elegant solution

Could it be that riders could use this technology to evade anti-doping measures? I'm not sure whether blood glucose is used in any of WADA's measures, but apparently you can also potentially engineer the systems (using a different reagent) to detect steroids or other metabolites.

Imagine if athletes could wander round with an EPO-ometer on their arm at all times.

Don't know if it'll make any difference for pro cycling but TT1 and Abbott will be delighted, the ban's going to convince more fat accountants to buy it. Banned by the UCI for performance reasons? Yes please!

I can see it being a really useful tool for high level athletes, but not a gamechanger? Just an additional tool for the rider, trainers, dieticians etc. Fuelling's always been part of the game but is anyone really going to look at a screen and go "oh my blood sugar's high enough to go faster"? (or equally "my blood sugar's a bit high, better not take any food/flat coke/whatever to keep the insulin production down"?)

Froome talks on this from 14:20

says something about getting near the end of the ride, not sure how much you've got left, and the glucose monitor tells you yes, you have enough to go for that last effort.

So yeah, does take away a bit more randomness from the equation which I don't like. But then I'd ban radios as new fangled.

For diabetic athletes, this technology is huge. I’m unsure how much it would help a non-diabetic.

If it's the tipping point between getting diabetic Joe Blogs away from his desk and going for a lunchtime run without fear of passing out then great.

But at some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say sport isn't fair. What about diabetics, asthmatics, fat people, short people, tall people, gingers that can't spend long in the sun. At what point do you stop trying to level people up and just accept that some people didn't win the physiology lottery and get put off a sport ot aren't going to win however hard they try?

i read somewhere that its the Libre 3.
Im with the UCI, racing is all about the drama (insnt all sport?) and if everything is too controlled it removes some of that element.

What about diabetics, asthmatics, fat people, short people, tall people, gingers that can’t spend long in the sun. At what point do you stop trying to level people up and just accept that some people didn’t win the physiology lottery and get put off a sport ot aren’t going to win however hard they try?

What a depressing post. Allowing/enabling diabetics and asthmatics to be involved in a sport, all the way up top, is a great advancement. Do you wear glasses or contact lenses thisisnotaspoon?

thisisnotaspoon
Full Member

If it’s the tipping point between getting diabetic Joe Blogs away from his desk and going for a lunchtime run without fear of passing out then great.

It isn't though. I mean, if it were, it'd essentially be yet another barrier to entry. But no diabetic needs it in order to do basic exercise, it's as simple as that. The cure for "fear of passing out" is long established and it's "check your blood sugar before, and maybe eat some jelly babies"

For people who want to push harder, it's definitely got potential. I could definitely have found it useful when I started riding more seriously and was having to figure out the fuelling on top of everything else. One less thing to worry about, one more tool in the kit.

The benefit gets more nuanced after that. Like, when I've solo'd endurance events I just run my blood sugars a little high. (it's the one performance advantage we get; we can't insulin crash). I'm doing the glentress seven in a team in a couple of weeks, I'll just do the same. For a day, that's fine. But if you do it routinely it's long-term bad for you. People who like road riding for hours on end have a lot to gain by it I think.

What a depressing post. Allowing/enabling diabetics and asthmatics to be involved in a sport, all the way up top, is a great advancement. Do you wear glasses or contact lenses thisisnotaspoon?

No (but I'm guessing if I'd said yes you'd point at that as a double standard and the no will just get a well you dont know what you're talking about).

As I said in my original point, which physiological advantages are on the allowed list and which aren't? Most people, however much they trained would never reach the pro ranks. Whether that's because your born diabetic, or grow to be 6ft tall and can't compete with the 5ft6 climbers sport just isn't supposed to be that fair.

Otherwise I'd quite like Geraints salary and to be transported all over the world to ride my bike, it looks like a fun life!

Most people, however much they trained would never reach the pro ranks.

This is very true. Not sure it's relevant when it comes to diabetics and asthmatics having the use of the tools they use in day to day live denied them in sport though. Or is the thought of someone with either of those traits being far better than you at sport the problem?

Or is the thought of someone with either of those traits being far better than you at sport the problem?

Neither for nor against but while we are throwing spurious deflamitory claims out there to try and make Tina's look bad

I guess you were in favour of pistorious competing against competitors not using blades ?

After all they were just a tool to allow him to be able to live a normal life.

No, I wasn't in favour. But then your proposition that his racing blades were "just a tool to allow him to be able to live a normal life" isn't strictly true, is it.

Well yeah I guess if we are picking holes in it he could have used a wheel chair day to day.

Fairly sure he could have still be within world class times on the track on that.

But yeah good for goose is good for gander

Supersapiens is Libre 2 with a different app. Libre 2 sensor is perfectly capable of continuous reading but is hampered by the regulators as it not a CGM. It measures interstitial glucose which is then calculated into blood glucose. There’s a lag time between blood and interstitial reading, which is improved in Libre 2 but still a number of minutes. Regulators won’t allow “real time” read outs as they’re not real time.
For non diabetic athletic use the lag time is not an issue as you’ll never properly hypo and pass out, plus I don’t think it’s registered as a medical device so isn’t subject to the same regulation.

There are alternatives as mentioned. One is NightRider BluCon, which also works with original Libre and can send readings to their app on mobiles and smar****ches. Separate add on device which sits on top of sensor.

I fancy a "something like this"

I'm a type? fairly skinny fairly hard-exercising middle aged fart but seems I can get my BMs to swing like your neighbours with the pampas grass and my A1c is a bit shit. I'm too busy/lazy/forgetful to properly check them, which means I don't really know how fast they swing or how low/high they can get (or after what, specifically). I figure one of these would compensate for my other failings and let me see what's really going on

... and then I can address that better (I hope)

is hampered by the regulators as it not a CGM. It measures interstitial glucose

All the ‘left in place’ CGMs measure interstitial glucose, not blood glucose, don’t they?

Big difference between Libre2 and Supersapiens will probably be a difference in battery:lifespan ratio I suspect, to enable regular transmission of data, rather than just alert and scan. I’ll go and have a read…

Nope, I was wrong… same battery, same lifespan. Now a I’m very intrigued…

These could be useful for Libre users…

https://www.supersapiens.com/en-GB/products/patch/

Nope, I was wrong… same battery, same lifespan. Now a I’m very intrigued…

Seems like you can only get the Supersapiens app with a sensor pack purchase, it’s not on the App Store like the Librelink. What I wonder is could you buy the one month starter with app and then use prescription Libre 2 sensors afterwards. I’m assuming that there’s something in the firmware stopping you from doing this.
My hope is that Abbott are using this as a test bed with a view to seeking full CGM approval for Libre 3. The technology is there it’s just not type approved, so they can’t provide an app for medical use.

My hope as well. We’ve used the Dexcom before, which transmits levels at regular intervals, but can’t get it on prescription for the boy. It was much more useful than even the Libre2, especially for parents.

https://www.diabettech.com/freestylelibre/diabetes-tech-or-not-diabetes-tech-libre-sense-is-the-question/

@scaredypants I'm assuming you may be diabetic but you aren't sure hence the type? Rather than type 1 or 2...you can buy these on your own so give it a bash and see what it tells you. Better yet, speak to your local diabetic specialist and see if you can trial it.

I'm a T1 Diabetic (28 years in), been using the Libre/MiaoMiao/Xdrip/Garmin setup for a couple of years, for enduro racing, crit racing, TT etc, as well as general control. It's brilliant. A proper gamechanger.

I see the "sporting" arguments about this vs the entertainment of watching people blow up attempting one last surge for glory, against the trickle down benefits of tighter garmin/libre integration.
What worries me though is the almost comic amount of single use plastic waste generated by each sensor. The applicator is huge, the sensor is plastic, contains a battery and a circuit. Every 2 weeks (well, whisper it, but there is an app that lets you restart some of the sensors for an additional 10-14 days) that's a chunk of planet killing plastic off to landfill.
It's gross really. I'm pretty happy if all the mamils and the pros and the instagrammer self-declared "Type-0s" don't add to that heap of waste as the artic burns and the sea levels rise.

The plastic applicator is something we’re annoyed about. Our used pile is getting pretty big.

If this is 'successful', is it likely that Abbott will start to allow their data to be shared by other systems? Abbott are incredibly unwilling to allow access to any of this data (hence why it doesn't auto-update to Diasend and the like these days)...

I'm thinking if this is possible then it opens up more opportunities for tying in to pump settings/readings and introducing CGM and auto-correct of pump settings (this is the bit that is the concern and understandably so), but it does suggest this could be done and would help improve control as well.

I'm not sure it's in their business interest really, they can own the vertically integrated stack and rent access to "cloud features" they come up with later.

Xdrip+ seems to integrate well for me, my BG shows up in Garmin Connect after rides, as an additional chart alongside HR etc.

The really cool bit of Xdrip+ for me is being able to calibrate the Libre readings with fingerprick tests, which does seem to make it much more accurate. It's been used by people with pumps to "close the loop" I believe too. I can see why Abbott aren't keen on getting that involved with that at the moment, I imagine the regulatory testing required to do that officially would be a real drag.

So yeah, does take away a bit more randomness from the equation which I don’t like. But then I’d ban radios as new fangled.

In some way it needs to be one or the other or all or nothing. Is it a sport or a business?

Most people, however much they trained would never reach the pro ranks.

And the word pro is the relevant one.
UCI especially grand tours is a business... it's got sod all to do with cycling or fitness or the actual athletes on a business level. It is ultimately about who has the most money to pay for equipment, training and support for a few select genetic quirks..

It's a mistake IMHO to connect the two (business and sport)... sadly diabetics and asthmatics and many many others simply don't have the genes for this BUSINESS ... any more than a 5' tall basketball hopeful. There are 1001 other medical conditions .. many probably not even given a name yet that prevent most potentials.

I see the “sporting” arguments about this vs the entertainment of watching people blow up attempting one last surge for glory, against the trickle down benefits of tighter garmin/libre integration.

Whilst someone else carries their magic drink and nutrition, drafts them and blocks other riders the "sporting" part doesn't really apply.

The real issue "for the rest of us" is the trickle down into organisations like (for us) BC.... the majority of the tech is really only most effective with a whole team behind you... including a doctor willing to sign whatever TUE is put in front of them but this is a few people per million.

Meanwhile I think most of us would benefit more from just separating the business from the sport.

I don't buy the argument that using these sensors will necessarily make racing more boring. Power meters have changed the tactics in cycling a bit (and made some of the discourse more boring) but if you think the racings been dull in the last few years then I don't think you've been watching.

I can't think of any races off the top of my head where my abiding memory is of a spectacular bonk - I'm sure there are examples but none spring to mind. I do however think immediately of Froome's Giro win in 2018 - an absolutely thrilling bit of racing made possible with careful fuelling management.

Perhaps better fuelling management in the peloton could mean more people able to make exciting attacks at the end of long races.

It won't be long until it's in every smar****ch, I suspect the UCI are trying to get ahead of it.

Hopefully, it will be more accurate than heart rate monitoring which is awful on my Fenix.

Apple Watch

I would find this data really useful in a race or on a long ride, when I race I race fat adapted and try to spare my glycogen with little top-ups of carbs along the way but try not to raise my blood sugar too, this could help me manage that.

I can’t think of any races off the top of my head where my abiding memory is of a spectacular bonk

Think more local. Some amazing grassroots stuff I've been involved with where a last gasp hail mary effort has exploded spectacularly and hilariously.

It won’t be long until it’s in every smar****ch, I suspect the UCI are trying to get ahead of it

A friend of a friend was looking at trying to measure blood sugar using lasers 10 or so years back. It wasn't going all that well 🙁

I'm still hopeful for a smart tattoo with ink that changes colour with blood sugar. Cake meter/fuel gauge is the dream, but I guess could end up like those bars on the side of Duracell batteries.

There are already glucose monitors that use skin contact only. Building a sensor into bar tape wouldn't be hard, as you can get good contact there. The problem that needs solving with watches is that they are worn too loose to work with current(ly on the market) on the skin technology, but that's being worked on.

EDIT: what an idiot... gloves... gloves.