Seems like there are proposals to turn Golfie into a bike park. Personally I think this is one of the stupidest ideas I have ever heard of in my life, it would not be sustainable and I reckon all the handbuilt trails would be trashed in under a year if there was a large jump in traffic.
Obviously you could upgrade the trails and build new man-made trails as such, but commercialisation sort of loses what makes golfie such a great place to ride IMO. Would be much better to develop the DH side of Inners further and turn that into a bike park.
Would be much better to develop the DH side of Inners further and turn that into a bike park.
Was saying exactly that to a couple of mates this afternoon while chatting at the top fireroad.
The bottom of the field where Nationals finished in in the 90s is perfect for a visitor centre, facilities and a car park and the top half is perfect for a jump park with a pumptrack. and the top fireroad (uplift road) is prime to be extended to the top of plora craig (as was already looked into 25yrs ago)
Just for me, what's the difference between a bike park and a trail centre?
ust for me, what’s the difference between a bike park and a trail centre
The riders are better at a bike park, the vehicles are better at a trail centre
a bikepark just for Colin?
A baron heather/gorse strewn boggy wilderness with one guy a bivy bag and an ugly bike with a steering wheel for handlebars
Bike park riders pay to ride
Trail centre riders pay for parking
so that makes perfect sense Colp
The problem with adding infrastructure to Inners is the car park is on the river flood plain. A small cafe up the slope from the car park is planned by Adrenalin Uplift though. They're looking to do that soon and it's not related to this Golfie stuff.
Are there really going to be the numbers using it to support the installation, running and maintenance of a chair lift?
https://www.trailforks.com/region/caberston/ridelogstats/
Seems like there are proposals to turn Golfie into a bike park. Personally I think this is one of the stupidest ideas I have ever heard of in my life, it would not be sustainable and I reckon all the handbuilt trails would be trashed in under a year if there was a large jump in traffic.
**Stats Disclaimer**
Trailforks is seeing an upturn is user base at the moment but...
It's getting that level of attention and the number of riders seems to be jumping up, potentially using the hillside to good effect would help spread the load, build more sustainable trail and leave the steep loose for those who still want it.
There were 3 folk riding there yesterday stat boy
I'm sure you think that means something, no idea what that is though, were you watching from the 19th?
Trailforks is seeing an upturn is user base at the moment but…
It’s getting that level of attention and the number of riders seems to be jumping up, potentially using the hillside to good effect would help spread the load, build more sustainable trail and leave the steep loose for those who still want it.
True but you just need to look at the large jump in traffic at the dh side when adrenalin uplift started operating to get an idea of the implications. The trails at golfie are much more fragile however and would struggle with sustained traffic, as an example look at what happened to New York New York after being used as a stage for two enduro races last year, trail got completely trashed.
You may also end up with a scenario where newbies end up going down trails which are way beyond their abilities and ending up having an accident (Seems to be a common occurrence at glentress these days).
a bikepark just for Colin?
A baron heather/gorse strewn boggy wilderness with one guy a bivy bag and an ugly bike with a steering wheel for handlebars
Genuine LOLs.
Make it so #1!!
Trailforks is seeing an upturn is user base at the moment but…
It’s getting that level of attention and the number of riders seems to be jumping up, potentially using the hillside to good effect would help spread the load, build more sustainable trail and leave the steep loose for those who still want it.
Have a look at the stats for the Inners DH side, the stats look the same in jump. Almost a 100% increase since 2017.
There is a new manmade track or 2 planned in the proposal to provide some relief to existing trails. Alongside a full time trail building team for maintenance/development.
Considering that all the local trail builders seem to be onboard with the idea then it should be great.
I reckon all the handbuilt trails would be trashed in under a year if there was a large jump in traffic
my guess would be that the existing trails would be made more robust. If it were my local spot my fear would be that the trails unsuitable for a bike park would be closed.
Colp - astute and funny.
Sounds good. Golfie has some steep stuff though, which presumably is harder to keep in good shape with a lot of traffic?
I guess it would depend on where the uplift is as to how much traffic. I've no idea whether a chairlift is realistic but if that was on the Inners side then that's where folks would go I guess. Until we all have e bikes that is...
How do Scottish access laws affect this? With no law of trespass then surely you could just turn up, pedal up and ride the trails as normal?
How do Scottish access laws affect this? With no law of trespass then surely you could just turn up, pedal up and ride the trails as normal?
There are exceptions for land allocated for a certain purpose that has charged access. It might be a fight trying to establish it if the ramblers/dog walkers/other cyclists object though.
Didn't the access laws get covered in the bpw thread? Ie how do golf courses manage to charge.
Where are the planning to head for funding?
The charge would be for the lift access on the hill and parking rather than using the trails.
.
The charge would be for the lift access on the hill and parking rather than using the trails.
In which case, what's the difference between a bike park and a trail centre again?
In which case, what’s the difference between a bike park and a trail centre again?
The name?
The charge would be for the lift access on the hill and parking rather than using the trails.
Nope, need to pay for BPW whether you use the uplift or not.
Nope, need to pay for BPW whether you use the uplift or not.
Yeah, hence my question really. If this is to create Bike Park Scotland along the lines of the Welsh model then access laws come into play. Or is it just a more fashionable name for a trail centre?
Nope, need to pay for BPW whether you use the uplift or not.
I think the point here though is that Scottish Outdoor Access Code applies which, in theory, gives you an automatic right of access to ride. Although, as others have said, maintained trails designed for a specific purpose are likely to be exempt.
The main places where access rights do not apply are:
- land developed and in use for recreation and where the
exercise of access rights would interfere with such use;
Bike Park = Trail centre. Same thing, the first one is just a different name to make the likes of "Park rats" pony up for trails like the rest of the population while still managing to maintain the level of internalised smug that their ego demands.
As said above, golf courses manage it.
Personally, I'd prefer to see it somewhere else, but that's a purely selfish point of view, as Inners is a shit drive from here. 🙂
franksinatra - you've highlighted the right part of the legislation and that shows exemptions are possible. However, exempting new areas can lead to a legal battle. I guess it depends on whether anyone feels like objecting, but there is a presumption against removing access rights.
As said above, golf courses manage it.
Really? I've walked, ridden run and skied through a few - perfectly legally.
Bike Park = Trail centre. Same thing, the first one is just a different name to make the likes of “Park rats” pony up for trails like the rest of the population while still managing to maintain the level of internalised smug that their ego demands.
Or, the other type of folk that want to turn up somewhere, have stuff built for them, and never lift a mattock in their life, and pay nowt for the privilege.
I'm happy to pay for quality trails (and spend a fair few days a year building/maintaining), that are well maintained, and evolve/expand as is required. Not really sure Caberston is the right place for that though.
A couple of questions which may have been addressed at the event which would be good to know the answer to.
Where is the money coming from to maintain and build?
How is the purchase going to be funded?
With Brexit looming, the door to European Funding is about to slam shut. Bike Park Wales was match funded with ERDF money. The headline build figure was £1.8 million but then there are the ongoing running, build and maintenance costs to consider.
Keen to see the business plan for the venture to cast my accountant's eye over it.
Sanny
Really? I’ve walked, ridden run and skied through a few – perfectly legally.
How about ski fields? I understood if you're ski touring (and not paid for a lift ticket) you're allowed to cross the ski field but not really ok to use the groomed pistes, unless you need to cross them.
How about ski fields? I understood if you’re ski touring (and not paid for a lift ticket) you’re allowed to cross the ski field but not really ok to use the groomed pistes, unless you need to cross them.
Like taking your own clubs to a golf course?
That would be Rule 1.
Don't be a dick
Nope, need to pay for BPW whether you use the uplift or not.
That’s wales though. Given the current free access and current trails I don’t think they would be able to stop that
Bike park? Commercial operation which owns and runs the area and sets access rules and payments to use. Nothing to do with ego just a differentiation on how it's operated.
For instance bpw new development entirely by the operator = charge for all access.
Whistler bike park no charge for ride up access but lift access costs. Also some definitions of cover and bike patrol "within" the park.
Trail centre public space?
Given the current free access and current trails I don’t think they would be able to stop that
Yep, but golf courses manage it, and as Colin rightly says, rule 1. The only reason I can run through Royal Troon or Old Prestwick is beacuse there are recognised ROW's through them, I can't run on the fairways for obvious safety reasons. This wouldn't be too hard an argument to apply to a forest to be honest.
The question of paying to access the trails was asked at the meeting, and the answer given by the consultant blokey was free access but pay for use of lift, cafe, parking only..
Like taking your own clubs to a golf course?
That would be Rule 1.
Don’t be a dick
My thinking is there is a difference between simply crossing land that's used for a specific purpose and using facilities without paying. On a golf course this difference is obvious, but for a bike park it may not be so. I think the solution here will be you just pay for a lift pass, if you choose to ride up the fire road then you can use the the trails for free.
There is a much better location for a lift accessed bike park. Hillend.
In which case, what’s the difference between a bike park and a trail centre again?
Swinley is a Bike Park, Glentress is a Trail Center.
As a visitor to the area (currently planning our next lads trip) i love the vibe off The Tweed valley area, I would hate it to turn into a BPW style thing. We absolutely adored the Golfie trails, in fact could spend weeks riding them. It would be nice to see more investment in the outlying infrastructure (better places to eat, drink and socialise) But I love the charm of the place.
Swinley is a Bike Park, Glentress is a Trail Center.
I've never been to and have no idea what is at Swinley so that tells me nothing 🙂
I’ve never been to and have no idea what is at Swinley so that tells me nothing 🙂
Good job there were no other explanations there too...
Agree with the post that better rider facilities are needed for the whole inners area, like a ride hub for parking and changing/showers/bike wash, an overall plan for the town makes sense really with developments being coordinated.
Good job there were no other explanations there too…
OK cleverclogs, what's the difference?
It would be nice to see more investment in the outlying infrastructure (better places to eat, drink and socialise)
If enough people eat drink and socialise, there'll be more places opening up to eat drink and socialise.
I think adding a cafe etc. to Golfie would be a bad idea as the local cafes/chippies already in the area will lose out. There's a good one a the bottom of Feed the Pony for instance, great cake/rolls/service, and with good MTBer suitable seating in one section!
I'm not sure about uplift, I assume the hill suits a chairlift better than Inners does?
Yeah thanks for the lesson in basic supply and demand Phil 😉. My point is that as a visitor to the area, that’s the only thing I’d like to see change. But appreciate that the business has to be sustainable at least for the majority of the year. The idea of a BPw style setup, if that is indeed a consideration (I have not looked for plans) is not particularly a good thing in my book. But that’s me being selfish, BPW really isn’t my thing I just love the hand cut trails up there. The inners uplift stuff is great but give me the golfie everytime
toungue in cheek comments aside. If pushed for a definition, I'd say
Bike Park: Uplift (doesn't matter how) and mostly DH oriented trails
Trail Centre: more XC-ish trails (big circle in the woods), no uplift.
It'd be interesting to see if the whole Aimup idea was done as a feasibility study now, with the increasing numbers and capability of ebikes, how the numbers would stack up.
I agree re the whole Tweed valley vibe, it's a great place to ride, facilities don't bother me, there's plenty places to eat etc.
with the increasing numbers and capability of ebikes
They're still very few and far between in the tweed valley. especially at the Golfie. There's definitely an odd mental barrier riders have about using one. I find it really weird from riders who have always ownd multiple bikes of a similar value. It's def a Tweed Valley #lifestyle thing aswell. give it time though and when a few more influential local riders start regualarly using them the fashion following wannabees'll all want one too.
Would be much better to develop the DH side of Inners further and turn that into a bike park.
My understanding is that the Inners land is not owned by the Forestry Commission but it's leased from the local landowner. There is a reluctance to invest in Inners facilities when the landowner could end the lease. This is why FC are more supportive of other forests in the area that they actually own.
Just something I heard from someone "in" on the situation.
Would be interested to see what locals riders think, particularly those that build the trails at the Golfie, is the organisation / individuals that are putting forward the plans the key trail builders or have full support from them or are they just cashing in on the hard work done by others?
Also as a venue is it not a tad steep for a multi purpose bike park? It’s the popularity of BPW it’s mass appeal in that it offer something for all abilities, were as the Golfie is significantly more full on and beyond quite a lot of riders ability, they would have to put some serious traverses in to bring the trail gradient down.
something for all abilities
Plenty provision the valley for this, I don't think this needs any consideration.
I would assume that the present style of Golfie trails (steep/unarmoured) is known to be unsuitable for heavy use. The hill itself currently makes it self-selecting as to the type and number of riders that can access it. That would definitely have to change under the weight of a bikepark development.
Of course, the Tweed is nothing if not blessed with many other areas people can ride and get intimate with their back tyre!
@scotroutes posted it on page 1. As per my understanding a bike park is owned and managed as a single park where access can be controlled. Etc. Bpw is a perfect example, whistler is similar but allows pedal up access for free. My old local at maydena tas was one where the owner built all the trails hence able to charge for entry regardless of uplift.
Nobeerinthefridge - that would assume that riders that don’t like / can’t coupe with steep Golfie / Inners DH trails don’t like the benefits of an uplift service. Seems a bit elitist.
I would assume that the present style of Golfie trails (steep/unarmoured) is known to be unsuitable for heavy use. The hill itself currently makes it self-selecting as to the type and number of riders that can access it. That would definitely have to change under the weight of a bikepark development.
Exactly. The terrain at golfie is naturally steep and would be very difficult to create a blue or red flow trail (flat white is the closest, but still quite steep in spots).
Inners makes more sense, forest is large enough with a varied terrain that means all types of trails can be built there in addition to the current trails, with both flow trails and steep tech being possible.
Seems a bit elitist.
and?
What's wrong with that? (assuming whoever is profiting can manage with the lower numbers more technical riding will bring)
GT/Inners trail centres are only a few minutes away to cater for novice riders
I don't suppose there's a OED definition to fall back onto but,
Trail Centre, which I think is fairly unique to the UK term usually generally refers to a building rather than a network of trails, but we usually see it the other way around). You pay to park (but not always) there's usually a cafe, bit of an info desk sometimes, and trails for horse riders, walkers, riders, bird watches, trails for school groups etc. The trails aren't always the responsibility of the centre and can be built and maintained by local government and are generally free to use by anyone.
Bike Parks, not by definition, but usually offer an uplift. Generally privately owned and it's pay to play on private land (or land leased to the park by local government) Because of this there's more liability on the operators and you'll need to sign a waiver usually (even if it's not rigidly enforced).
BPW muddy the water a bit, not by their own fault, but Bike Parks are still rare in the UK and were more so when they first opened, so the likes of MBR / MBUK couldn't really run a "best bike parks in the UK" if there was only 3 of them or whatever pretty much tucked away in the furtherest corners of the UK so they'd often find themselves in articles about "best trails centres in the UK" even though they'd often politely say things like "we don't consider ourselves a Trail Centre, but thanks". As would places like Brechfa and Cwm Rhaeadr which aren't Trail Centres either, which you'd discover to your peril if you ever turned up expecting to find a bike shop, showers, cafe etc, coz there ain't any.
Nobeerinthefridge
Plenty provision the valley for this, I don’t think this needs any consideration.
Same can be said of Whistler, but xc trails will be quiet while the bike park is always busy.
Uplift always leads to people trying stuff they’re not capable of because it’s so easy to access. See this all the time in ski resorts on a Friday afternoon where someone won’t go home without doing a black and has to slide down the entire run sideways.
Nobeerinthefridge – that would assume that riders that don’t like / can’t coupe with steep Golfie / Inners DH trails don’t like the benefits of an uplift service. Seems a bit elitist.
Not everyone can do everything, or wants to do everything. How many beginners go on the uplift at Inners as it is? I can't ever recall seeing one.
No but plenty go to BPW it’s this intended to be a bike park or are we talking about something along the lines of revolution?
Wasn't talking about anything along the lines of any other place. Nevermind places in Wales.
Why ruin a great riding area to end up with a hill full of Dave Jevnveys?
**** knows, never been to Revolution.
Very true beer, but to make something like this pay, you’d need a pretty big footfall. Would also be a lot more widely advertised and promoted than the Inners uplift is. IMO this would lead to families who’ve ridden GT also being tempted to head up the golfie. You need to either build suitable trails for them or they won’t come back.
Current xc trail ratings won’t help, as people who’ve done the GT black May think that’s what a black dh trail will be like.
you’d need a pretty big footfall
Gordo runs 4 buses over at the uplift, and has 6 in total, I'd say the footfall is there at present.
Current xc trail ratings won’t help, as people who’ve done the GT black May think that’s what a black dh trail will be like.
Isn't that what the orange designation is meant to be for, coupled with a big ARE YOU SURE YOU WON'T KILL YOURSELF ON THIS? sign at the entrance?
Current xc trail ratings won’t help, as people who’ve done the GT black May think that’s what a black dh trail will be like.
These are all problems that other parks worked out a long time ago.
The best indicator is a great big scary looking qualifier at the start. Other places use this in conjunction with the 3 orange dot grading system.
People aren't perhaps as stupid as you might fear either, very few will send a 10m double blind just because the sign at the start was a familiar colour.
Adrenalin uplift supports 64 riders a day. I suspect proposed plans would need a lot more than that to make it viable.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s good in principle, just worry about sustainability. You just need to look around at the numerous trail centres without facilities.
No it hasn't, you just need to look at the jump park at Gt to understand why the trail marking system doesn't work.
Having orange markings doesn't stop people from going down trails well beyond their abilities.
Why do you think there is always an ambulance being called to the buzzards nest nearly every week?
Why ruin a great riding area to end up with a hill full of Dave Jevnveys?
I agree so why push for a Bike Park, why not just get an uplift service in there like at inners and put more money back into trail building / repair to coupe with the any increased traffic.
NoBeer. Revs is great but it's run from one point in the car park at the bottom up one steep uplift road with all tracks starting pretty close to the drop off point at thv top. FA like Caberston
I agree so why push for a Bike Park, why not just get an uplift service in there like at inners
I've no interest in either happening. Sorry. Was that not clear?
Having orange markings doesn’t stop people from going down trails well beyond their abilities.
all that stuff can be rolled though.
"I’ve no interest in either happening. Sorry. Was that not clear?"
As a local and selfish ****, I completely agree.
all that stuff can be rolled though.
as can pretty much every trail at Caberston. especially now the place is full of SPAZA lines
Lol!
I’ve never been to and have no idea what is at Swinley so that tells me nothing 🙂
You're not missing out, it's the one place both you and Geex could visit and both hate. GMBN (or one of the other similar youtube channels) visited the place and referred to it as a bike park in order to make their "road trip" appeal more to the key 9-13yr old market. Despite Swinley having about 50m of elevation the joke has stuck.
As would places like Brechfa and Cwm Rhaeadr which aren’t Trail Centres either, which you’d discover to your peril if you ever turned up expecting to find a bike shop, showers, cafe etc, coz there ain’t any.
Those are definitely "trail centers" though, just without a cafe. And TBH I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually been to a trail center cafe (and it was mediocre). There's a shed halfway round Brechfa that does a decent bacon sandwich though!
For the really pedantic, if it calls itself a trail center it's a trail center, if it calls itself a bike park it's a bike park.
as can pretty much every trail at Caberston. especially now the place is full of SPAZA lines
I'm trying to look past the obvious and give you the benefit of the doubt that you're referring to lines that can only be found by purchasing the information from an informal convenience store in a South African township?
FCS own the land that Traquair Forest is on. They don't own the car park though and pay a fairly large amount of money to lease it.
FCS never invested in Innerleithen because AimUp was to take it all over through a community transfer. Ultimately, neither the funding nor a private sector provider came forward, so that project stalled.
Some additional points of clarification:
Caberston has more height gain that Traquair - around 75m. According to the consultant last night, that is absolutely required.
They already have a draft for newly build "flow" trails. Including a blue from top to bottom.
The overall proposal includes a MTB Innovation Centre. Current preferred location is Caerlee Mill in town. The proposal must get both - neither will proceed if only one is approved/funded.
Main funding is bid is via the Borderlands Growth Deal - so both Scottish and UK Governments.
Charging is for the lift. If you ride in, fill your boots.
On the Whistler point - there are more riders use the valley trails than the bike park. Figures presented last night, from memory it was something like 58/42 in favour of valley trails.
Anything else? Just ask.
My thoughts:
In favour of it happening:
1) FCS would probably be quite keen to dispose of golfie, it must be their biggest insurance liability, it generates no revenue and will require more fes management input/expenditure than is desirable, and they might be able to offload it for more than a normal disposal. Or it might be some kind of lease thing.
2) Private sector input makes it more favourable than proposals just relying on public money so riders can basically have a fatty on an uplift between runs and not have to pedal.
3) It might allow FES/whatever it's called next when it become a government agency, to limit unofficial trails built in other tweed valley forests, reducing their liability and costs.
Against it happening:
1) I can see major planning obstacles in relation to other stakeholders. The road is not really suitable for an increase in traffic and i think this would be a planning obstacle. There's not many other access options that don't go very close to other private property.
2) I can't see the golf course being happy with the increase in traffic through their course (they have to wait until the road is clear to play through) or the general increase in traffic around their land, unless they are receiving revenue somehow too.
3) The existing trails aren't really going to hold up to higher traffic unless they are rebuilt. With rose tinted specs on, this might be a shame as it's one of the highlights of tweed valley riding as it is now.
There's issues with the existing DH side, as has been said the car park is not FC land and floods every year, but it seems to me that is the more logical side to develop like this.
