[Closed] Tubeless - NO NO NO

Could you let us know what rims, tires and pressure you where running?

crap tyres, rim too narrow, pressure too low, rider too fat, MTFU ...etc. 😉

HTH

Incompetence rather than equipment failure - I reckon

Not sure of the exact pressure, but a little give under thumb pressure, about what i run on my other tube'd bike.

The rims are Mavic 819 tubeless rims
with Panaracer XC Fire tyres

I might be on the heavy side (92kg), but as mentioned, never had this issue running tube'd tyres.

Not a tubeless problem, obviously the way it has been setup!!!!!!!!!

TUBELESS IS AMAZING.

sounds like an issue like the tyre was'nt running parallel all the way round the tyre (wasnt seated evenly) or just running it too low

i had tubeless (proper ust - 819's) for 2 years and in those 2 years, do you know how many punctures/tyre rips/pinch flats i had???

you got it!

0!!

makes it even worse as the 819's are absolutly superb, i doubt you will find a better set of UST rims that work FULL TIME. Seriously my good man dont blame the rims, something setup wise was wrong 🙂

I'd take a puncture over the crash I had any day.

+1 for tubeless but as I found out yesterday a 4-5mm slash in the tread is not good 🙁

so would i, but id also assume automatically it was something i'd done wrong in the first place 🙂

819's dont just fail like that, there is a reason behind it, and its nothing to do with the rims 🙂

foxyrider - tubeless repair kit - CRC 3.99 - weldtite, just the jobby for that exact problem 🙂

its because you're using XC fires. they are too slack on the rim to be run tubeless.

If you had been using any other tyre like maxxis, bontrager, schwalbe etc etc it would have been fine (regardless of them being UST or not, which panaracer aren't)

Tubeless rocks!!!!
Only had one "burp" in 12 months now....

I've managed to do something similar with 819s and Nevegals but only when the pressure was too low (20psi - I'm about 70kg).

If they weren't a UST version of the Panaracers then it's your own fault - normal Panaracers are notorious for having slack beads and being unsuitable for running tubeless.

Last year I had a blow out at speed on my front tyre, tube came out and wrapped itself around my disc and the tyre rolled off - not had that happen since going tubeless, hope that helps you make up your mind :p

its because you're using XC fires. they are too slack on the rim to be run tubeless.

If you had been using any other tyre like maxxis, bontrager, schwalbe etc etc it would have been fine (regardless of them being UST or not, which panaracer aren't)

Are you sure about that? I've got UST Panaracer Fire XCs on my bike - [url= http://www.panaracer.com/products/mtb/detail_fire_ust.html ]linky[/url].

Andy

They can burp. It's normally caused by running too low pressures. Most commonly with me it's caused by a slow puncture (not sealing usually 'cos the sealant needs topped up) which drops the pressure over a ride until it burps.

If you hit tubeless at the wrong angle they can fail horribly. They also pinch flat just the same if you have not got enough pressure (<35). Speaking from experience.

Bat1 - Member
Tubeless rocks!!!!
Only had one "burp" in 12 months now....

now what happens when that 1 burp is at a critical moment?

And yes the Panaracers were the tubeless kind : /

thought i'd share my experience with others, i'll not bother next time.

Sealant that I have used (Stans) seems useless as well for anything bigger than 1mm. It only works for holes not pinch flats or rock cuts.I had plenty of sealant and got a 2mm pinch flat that just would not seal. I like the tubeless set up but I think the main thing is run your tyres with the correct pressure be it tubeless or tubes.

Mine have burped in the past - sounds like bad timing on your part. I'm told Panaracer tyres aren't great tubeless. I'd guess the slow puncture/dropping pressure theory?

thought i'd share my experience with others, i'll not bother next time.

Don't be put off by seemingly aggressive replies - some folk here are a bit defensive. Hope you're OK. Sounds like you've lost confidence in the tubeless thing - biggest advantage is on a rear tyre though, which won't ambush you in the same way.

You might want to actually state in your first post that you WERE using UST rims and tyres, that way people won't jump to conclusions (which they love to on here!).

You just had too low pressure for your weight, thata all. A proper UST set-up is great IMO.

I switched from 819s to Stans rims partly because of this issue. I found that a combination of smaller burps during a ride could lower the pressure of my front tyre to the point that a hard corner or off camber landing would cause a big loss of air, which on 2 occasions ended up in crashes when the tyre folded.

Keep an eye on your pressures or switch to a Stans rim, they are far superior for tubeless setups!

I always trot this out - but I did the Mega last year with the rear 719 ghetto tubeless - not a problem all week and I weigh 16.5 stone ish.

I also have an 819 and the Flows I use now are better imo - non-tubeless tyres went up easily with no rim strip and just a track pump.

Don't let the clique of STW get to you, there's a lot of people who have the confidence simply because they haven't had a failure yet themselves!

It does sound like the pressure was a little too low though. If you don't know the numbers then you may have been getting away with it for a while!

Admittedly, this might not be a noticeable problem with tubes tyres, but at the sort of pressure where you get burping, you would be getting frequent pinch flats anyway, so maybe the pressure was lower than you thought. Slow unsealed puncture? Running sealant?

Were the tyres Fire XC UST? How old, and have the bead stretched significantly since you first installed them?

I'd second the comments about tubeless being really good but I'd also second the comments about not letting the STW Tubeless Mafia get to you.

Probably those people that have never had a problem are either a)not that heavy, b) not that fast, c)still running super high pressures or d) a combination of all three.

I've run tubeless for almost four years now and I'd say that I've had about 80% success.

The problems I've encountered are like yours; cornering fast as a heavy rider on hardpack surfaces can cause tyres to burp and they can subsequently roll off the rim or pinch flat.

Some rime/tyre combos are materially better than others. I find Flow rims, stans rim strips and Maxxis wire beaded tyres to be the best; more or less 100% reliable.

Running kevlar beaded tyres makes the tyre less sturdy in hard cornering and more likely to come off is you get landing squint etc.

Oh no ! I best go and get some tubes fitted to my car,van,and pickup ,as well as my 3 mtb's immediately then,I wish some one would of told me earlier how cr@p this new fangled 'tubeless malarkey' is....... 😉

did a lap of kirroughtree on sat with 9psi up front .... just get some mans tires - panaracer are shite (coming from a fan of fire mud pro 1.8s - all i use in winter) they are still shite the only tire ive ever punctured with a stick !

Never had any issue with UST in 7 years. Just get bored waiting around for people to replace or repair tubes.

I ripped my first tyre yesterday, it went down rather rapidly, it would have done so if it'd had a tube in it. I would have also had more punctures in the intervening period, wouldn't have been able to run such low pressures, and my wheels would have weighed more.

For me, tubeless is awesome.

[i]Hope this helps someone make their mind up about tubeless.[/i]

Yep, I''m now going to ditch the tubeless I've been using for the last 4 years. After ZERO "burps" and about 4 punctures I've had ENOUGH 😆

Cheers Dizy - I repaired with with a big inner tube patch 🙂

Xckeith don't be a nob. He didn't say you should do that at all. And anyway when did you last have to fit car tyres yourself and fill them with latex solution... 🙄

+xckeith

I had the same thought.

T/L technology works, and works well - but like all things it needs to be maintained - whether this is tyre pressure, sealant level and/or tyre condition.

A front wheel puncture with a tube will have you off far easier than a T/S front wheel puncture, as the tube is more likely to lose air instantly,

Tubeless is getting to be a bit of a religious issue.

So yeah, it's your fault, you're a class A windowlicker, you must have put it all together wrong, and it's people like you that give tubeless a bad name.

And of course, tubeless is rubbish, I don't see why anyone would use it, the consequences of failure are too grim to think about.

😕

Just got back from a week in Spain and my first attempt at tubeless.
I am using DT Swiss 420SL rims and on the front a Spesh Purgatory 2.2 tyre.

I had the issue that the OP mentions on two occasions and put it down to probably a combination of set-up/lack of experience with tubeless and perhaps tyres that aren't ideal.

The first incident was riding across some angled rock on a fairly simple trail that I'd ridden without issues several times before. One second all was well and the next, the bike just slid out from under me and before I knew it I lying on the ground with a very sore thigh. Once i picked myself up it became clear that my front tyre was almost flat and I assume the camber of the rock had caused the tyre to separate from the rim.

The second was on the road cycling through Granada - busy roundabout and a bloke cuts me up. I braked hard and the front tyre just let go and I went down again. Once I got going again, the front tyre was almost flat and required pumping up as soon as I was clear of the roundabout.

The front tyre is very loose on the rim, which I guess doesn't help.

On the plus side, last years 2+ punctures per day turned into zero punctures through the course of the week and it was a lot more thorny & overgrown than when we normally go in May.
I did pick up several thorns and had to inflate the tyres back up to pressure every now & again, but it was 10x better than previous years frustrations.....

On sunday while riding around cannock, my tubed wheel had a major failure. Banking on a corner quite fast, the tube got a snakebite and deflated really quickly. This meant i lost traction and the front slide out. I landed really hard on the back side of my hips, and it really bloody hurt : /

If i had tubeless in i'm pretty sure i would have got around the corner no problems.

Live and learn. Hope this helps someone make their mind up about tubeless.

Me again Sunday: Hit the sidewall on a huge rock going down a fast off road descent (huge bang) I thought Oh dear, continuted thinking the worst and I'd have to stop but No! slight sractch in the rim and scuffed wall but with a tube I'd have gone down. Now I know you can get external tyre repair kits makes it even sweeter 🙂

Maxray,I didn't say he did say that.just making a point.Technology moves on,when bicycling started,they used solid tyres,don't s'pose they got many punctures either.
each to their own,try something,give it a fair crack,if you don't like it,fine,don't do it.
for what it's worth,I've been tubeless for years,I like to run 20psi front and rear(wtb lt 2.55/29),I need all the grip/traction/comfort I can get,I get less punctures,have 'burped at least twice in 4 or 5 years,had maybe two punctures that didn't self seal,ripped a gash in the main tread area of a maxxis swamp thing caused by a booby trapped puddle filled with broken bottles !,but I doubt a tube would of helped with that one.and yes,I always carry a tube,a few chain links,a cleat screw,a multi tool,and a pump,and have used all of them either for myself or to help others.

I'm possibly being a bit of a spaz here but could someone explain how on earth is it possible to get a pinch flat running tubeless?? What exactly are you pinching?

conti + shimano combo - never had a single issue in 2 years. one flint-induced flat.

tried stans skinny rims and maxxis on a 29er a few weeks ago, 3 burps in a 3 hour ride.

20 psi with no pinch punctures? Ok maybe you can run with that but I can't.

Scottidog - No idea, the whole reason imo running tubless is so you can run low pressures without the fear of pich flatting.

Can't pinch flat if there is no tube, all you would be pinching is air!

Used tubeless for a while now, burped a wheel once (alpine descent, dropped off a switchback with wheel at 90 degree, burped, sealed itself, just had to pump it up a wee bit). Had numerous punctures that reseal themselves and quite frankly I would not go back to tubes.

I would say try it again but make sure you have enough pressure as it sounds like you didn;t. If they were newly put on its common for the pressure to drop for the first few rides until they get sealed properly.

It is dead easy to get pinch punctures with tubeless. I have done it lots of times.

It is dead easy to get pinch punctures with tubeless. I have done it lots of times.

Go on then, explain how that's possible?

You land heavily on the tyre if it does not have enough pressure and it nips the sides of the tyre.

You can pinch through the tyre, happened to me twice on proper UST tyres when an old, leaky valve was causing the pressure to drop gradually over a couple of rides.

Again though, new valve, checking pressure occasionally: no problems.

I continue to be surprised at those who think you can't pinch-flat on tubeless. The mind boggles.

Instead of pinching the inner tube inside the tyre, you pinch the tyre itself between the rim and the ground.

That said, it's not something that's ever happened to me, but then I do ride with higher pressure than a lot of the people on this thread (though lower than I would with tubes...)

I'm still not convinced. A pinch flat is when the tire nicks the tube. With tubeless this does not happen.

Are people meaning the tyre is getting pinched by the rim and hence the tyre is puncturing?

I am with grum on this...

Tubeless is good but not that good. If I was doing serious downhill I would rather have a good thick downhill tube and thick tyre. I always carry a spare tube

+1 for 819 rims they are bomb proof and mine have never had probs, Panaracer Fire XC UST too. I actually ran mine with NO sealant for ages as well. went on easy and lost minimal pressure over a week. That's pretty much my default setup

this thread should really be entitled...

"TOO LOW PRESSURE IN TYRES - NO NO NO"

When UST first came out the idea of sealant didn't exist, I ran UST tyres for about 3 years before I put any sealant in. I got one puncture in a Wildgripper, and 2 in Panaracer Trail Blasters, my only foray into Panaracers I must admit.

Pinch flats with tubes are caused by the RIM and the ground cutting the tube. Same thing is possible with tubeless except somewhat less likely I would guess, because the tyre is harder rubber and reinforced with tough canvas.

I smacked my rear wheel into a kerb the other day, tyre started going down. I was on my way to meet someone, so I stopped and pumped it up rather than fit a tube - twice in about 5 minutes.. then it stayed up - magic.

As for not sealing holes greater than 1mm - I rode over some glass once and put quite a cut in the tyre, probably 3mm or so. Sealant sprayed everywhere as I rode but it got less and less, and then sealed. I was astonished tbh. Unfortunately it happened again the following day (in a different place) and there wasn't enough sealant left 🙂

Oh and it says on Stan's site not to use Panaracer tyres, cos the beads are too slack.

This was a UST Panaracer, and to be fair there are plenty of tyres which can be very slack! Schwalbe are the only ones to be really consistent IME.

You'd have to be a right fatty to pinch flat through a side wall, and if you manage that then there really is no hope if you're running tubes...

Even as a confirmed tubeless Evangelical I know they aren’t perfect, there isn’t really a totally bullet proof way of doing pneumatic tyres, from my own experience (which is realy all anyone can rely on I suppose) I’ve found them to be better than Tubes, but you can still hole/slash a tyre or if the pressure gets too low they can roll/burp, tubeless is probably a slightly more maintenance intensive and perhaps costly way to keep you tyres up, but out on the trail I’ve had fewer issues with flat’s than I did when using tubes…

I would say to the OP give it another try, perhaps look for a different tyre and consider a dab more sealant (Better to have too much than too little)…
The failure you described could have a number of possible root causes, and it would be foolish to try and guess exactly what caused it or to suggest a tube would/wouldn’t suffer a similar fate.

At the end of the day I suppose removing a tube seems a bit counter intuitive to many and I can appreciate why, Failures will happen with both methods of tyre inflation, from what I’ve found less often with UST but that is only my experience, others may differ…

I’m a bit saddened by the UST converts who instantly jump on someone who doesn’t get on with UST, it is a bit unhelpful, disagree politely and then move on…

supinerider - Member
I've managed to do something similar with 819s and Nevegals but only when the pressure was too low (20psi - I'm about 70kg).

I've got less than 20psi in a mountain king 2.4 on my front XT rim, I weigh 84kg + kit!! Never any issues off road, but I take it carefull on grippier tarmac/concrete surfaces.

I was with the STW massive for 1 year and run tubless on Mavic 819

I did love them.....

But

2 punctures that were too big for the sealent to seal....
1 x slash while riding Torridon
Few burps but final straw was on Fort William DH course and High Roller LUST tyre burped and came off the front rim while horsing down a top section rock garden and caused me some pain.

Back to tubes for me!

Few burps but final straw was on Fort William DH course and High Roller LUST tyre burped and came off the front rim while horsing down a top section rock garden and caused me some pain.

Isn't that just because you were using the wrong tyres? LUST are not meant to be very tough are they - and you were riding a very rocky DH course. 😕

It IS possible to pinch a tyre much like a tube. Just far, far less common. Lots of people run too little pressure in their tubeless for the way they ride, you get very used to the durability and take it for granted and end up ramming rocks that you wouldn't go near if you had tubes in. The other thing of course is that if you do this sort of thing, you'll whack your rims a lot more.

Kbrembo wrote, "Few burps but final straw was on Fort William DH course and High Roller LUST tyre burped and came off the front rim while horsing down a top section rock garden and caused me some pain."

Oh come on feller, that's just poor equipment choice and I think you probably know it. If you want something that'll stand up to hard use on a DH course don't use something with "light" in the name. (that said I got on fine on off beat with standard nevegals run "ghetto" on Stans rims, but perhaps I wasn't horsing. If I was, I'd have fitted a more appropriate tyre)

Pressures depend on tyres. I run about 30-35 psi on the Patriot with wide Sun Singletrack rims and Kenda Nevagal tyres. On the 5 with Mavic 317s and Conti Speedking 2.3s I need about 45psi to stop them squiding around in corners.

coopersport1 - Member
+1 for 819 rims they are bomb proof and mine have never had probs, Panaracer Fire XC UST too. I actually ran mine with NO sealant for ages as well. went on easy and lost minimal pressure over a week. That's pretty much my default setup

this was on the bike you sold me:D

Grum..Northwind

From Maxxis website ref Highroller LUST

"The High Roller's tread design translates well to all mountain bike disciplines, including downhill, cross country, and freeride."

My main objective was the red run at Fort William so I wasn't changing tyres for a couple of runs of the DH

I am not being critical of LUST tyres but burps/tears/punctures can and do happen with any tubless tyre.

Just my experience and opinion.

Made me giggle^^^

"The High Roller's [u]tread design[/u] translates well to all mountain bike disciplines, including downhill, cross country, and freeride."

"The High Roller's tread design translates well to all mountain bike disciplines, including downhill, cross country, and freeride."

Yup, but there's more to the tyre than the tread pattern obviously, that's their standard blurb for all versions of the highroller. Would you take the 2.7 Supertacky XC riding? It's got the same description for that too.

I'm not saying you should have changed the tyres, I'm saying you should accept that if you use a tyre outside its design envelope you can't be too surprised if it goes wrong, and blaming tubeless for that doesn't make much sense. I took that risk myself using the Nevegals for the same job and it worked out but if it hadn't I'd just have accepted that my gamble didn't work out.

If only I'd known I could have saved myself some weight on the Mega and used LUST High Rollers instead of the Dual Ply Super Tacky 2.5s I did use. 😉

same thing happenned to me but with a tube, high roller on the front with X317 rim, had a slow puncture and knew it was a bit flat but ignored it, went round a corner a bit fast and bam, kerblamo! the tyre rolled off the rim. Hurt my knees. So it ain't just tubeless, it's any baggy tyres!

Woe betide anyone that dares to question tubeless tyres...

You're either thick or put them on wrong...

"Woe betide anyone that dares to question tubeless tyres...

You're either thick or put them on wrong."

Yip 😳

Ok now I am on Minnion 2.5 and 2.35 duel ply 60a with tubes and they will be getting used for all my riding which includes XC/AM..etc etc.

"I'm not saying you should have changed the tyres, I'm saying you should accept that if you use a tyre outside its design envelope you can't be too surprised if it goes wrong, and blaming tubeless for that doesn't make much sense."
Never "blamed" tubeless just stating a fact

"grum
If only I'd known I could have saved myself some weight on the Mega and used LUST High Rollers instead of the Dual Ply Super Tacky 2.5s I did use. "

Did I ever mention weight? or the mega?

As I said I really liked tubless and run them for a year but now gone back to tubes.

Ok end of this thread for me... Sorry for stating my experience of tubless

Chill out - are we not allowed to disagree with you?

We just pointed out that using a lightweight tyre for 'horsing down' one of the world's harshest DH tracks then having it fail, and saying that was the deciding factor in giving up on tubeless is a little silly.

The reason I mentioned the Mega is because that's another thing which is meant to be harsh on tyres, so I selected appropriate ones for the job.

But that's the point - dare to question tubeless on here and you may as well have called Jesus a c**t in a packed cathedral...

It doesn't suit everyone.

Not really - some people like it, some don't - but the fact that some people use it absolutely hassle free and others seem to have loads of problems suggests user error.

Surf-Mat - Member

"But that's the point - dare to question tubeless on here and you may as well have called Jesus a c**t in a packed cathedral..."

Nah, don't think that's true, there's legit criticisms and there's daft ones. And "my lightweight tubeless tyre didn't do very well on a world cup downhill course" is a daft one. Following it up with the quote from the Maxxis website just drives that home.

The people who insist it's always lighter or that it'll never puncture me annoy me just as much but they're not featuring much in this thread. Hopefully someone'll come along with a bmx tube ghetto conversion on an XC bike and claim it's lighter than an XC tube in a minute, then compare with an incredibly heavy cheap tube to back that up, then I can tear them to bits 😉

IS it normal to be able to mount real UST tyres by hand. I mean without reverting to tyre levers / spoon handles etc. I bought a NN Allgrounder and it was almost impossible to get on and off and absolutly refused to seal ( with WUL) up onto the rim.
I have a set of Conti Vert UST and they are just about mountable by hand without resorting to violence. Abit of WUL on the rim ( crossmax ) and a few pumps with a track pump and they inflate easily.
The set of RR also refuse to pop up onto the rim and are really tight on the rim, they too need tools to mount then sit in the belly of the rim and refuse to seal and pop up onto the rim.

to the OP , maybe try braking before you wang it into a corner too fast, you are asking the tyre to brake and turn at the same time.
cars and motor bikes should be slowed before the corner to the speed you carry to the apex, mountain bikes are more or less the same

Northwind.....

I live in the highlands and mtb 3-4 times a week and always do a weekend run-golspie,laggan,cairngorms,Torridon,etc.

Now calling me daft for turning back to tubes is an insult.

I was just stating my experiences with tubless.

Puncture at Golspie,rip in Torridon and a few burps. Some of the guys I cycle with have also had burps/punctures with tubless. Point is they are not perfect for all riders.

Next time you are up north give me a shout and we can talk tyres while we cycle.

I don't think it's exclusively a tubeless problem. I think slow pressure loss is what causes a lot of pinch/rolloff failures, whether it's a value problem of a small thorn puncture that doesn't seal. You don't notice the slow loss of pressure when you're hooning along until you hit a rock or corner and it just goes.

The only time I've burped a good tubeless setup is in a crash when I landed sideways on the front wheel and it pushed the tyre off the rim - BURP!

Northwind - fair comments!

Kbrembo - Member

"Now calling me daft for turning back to tubes is an insult."

It would be, but I've not done that.

Calling you daft for your comments on the LUST highroller however, I did do, and I don't think you can argue with it. Your attempt to defend it with the quote from the Maxxis website was if anything dafter. But by all means go on the offensive 😉