[Closed] Tubeless - I'm not sure I understand....

In your situation I'd stick with heavy duty tubes and a bit higher pressure. It's possible to change tyres with the right tyres and a decent track pump I suppose (or a compressor if you have a nice day van) but it's not something I look forward too .. I swap in March and November, between summer and winter tyres, thats all.

Let's be fair though it's not a difficult task to swap between tyres. If you have the fluid already it's not really an issue, 20 min job if that.

Thanks Brassneck. I'll pass in that case.

If you change tyres "a lot" it probably isnt worth the hassle depending on your tyre/rim combo...

but if you have propper UST rims and tyres they are easy to go up with a normal track pump, but youll need new fluid every time.

Whooaaa up there! It is a bit more of a faff, but I think the benefits way out weigh the faff.

I realise this everytime I change tyres and pull thorns (9 last time) out that I didn't even know were there.

Then you've got the ability to run lower pressures without pinch flatting etc... etc...

Edit: you don't need new fluid everytime, just scrape out with the supplied stans scoop and put in a jamjar until needed

ease of swapping depends totally on the tyre and rim combo and the kit you have.

if you have a compressor and teh right rims etc 20mins yes, if you have not then it could be anything from 20 mins to 2hrs swearing and failure

I'm convinced tubeless is an answer to a problem that never existed.

Okay, okay - I concede if you're at world class level/racing competitively maybe it might shave off half a second off your time.

But for anyone else? Not convinced.

Makes me laugh, people on here go on about the hilarity of 650B "making the trail come alive", then go spend 20 minutes trying to change a tyre only to bring a tube with them in case it burps/pops/flat anyway - why? Because it makes the trail come alive.

I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this.

Depends if you like punctures plyphon

Having no tubes is far better than having tyres that are ever so slightly wrong for the situation. Changing tyres for where you ride is taking riding pushbikes too seriously.

For me tubeless isn't about going fast it's about not getting punctures.

tubeless definately feels better to ride on. i`m a luddite and i notice.

it is a right pain in the arse tho.

i've managed to hole/cut every tubless tyre i've run sufficiently to need to put a tube in mid ride at some point. then i`m even more annoyed than a if i get a regular puncture and way more messy

Depends if you like punctures plyphon

hate em. but equally had two in 4 years.

edit: yeah, I concede on the punctures front too. I can understand that if you ride somewhere with a lot of thorns etc.

But again surely just riding a heavier duty tyre could solve this? I got a few flats on some lightweight Spesh XC tyres, so stuck some bigger, heavier duty "trail" type tyres and that cured that.

tubeless is a faff compared to tubes no question but it ranges from slightly more tricky to major PITA depending on setup and tools (a good compressor negates almost every problem)

How often you flat/change your tyres dictates whether the faff is worthwhile.

I believe you can scoop/syringe the sealant out swap tyres and reuse old sealant (plus add a bit more) and with a compressor or a good tubeless setup it should be a fairly quick job but I just leave the same tyres on year round

edit UST system is a pretty quick change, about the same as tubes with a tight fitting tyre, but you obviously you don't get thorn puncture resistance unless you add sealant aswell

It only takes me a few minutes to swap a tyre, but I have proper tubeless rims, and a compressor. I wouldn't be so keen without the compressor and I wouldn't swap at all if I was using a tubeless bodge.

The sealant's reusable, if I'm changing for just a few days I'll just hang the tyre up with sealant in it, if it's longer I'll sook most of it out with a squeezy bottle and reuse it in the new tyre, and rinse out the old one- wastes a little sealant, but tidier and stops it hardening in the tyre.

Yes tubeless is more of a faff. But, it's faff on your terms, in my case in the garage with the radio on- whereas tubes are less faff to fit, but provide gifts of future faff at inconvenient times when you're up a mountain in the rain, or in the middle of a race.

Changing tyres for where you ride is taking riding pushbikes too seriously

Is it? I mean I ride pretty tame trail centres (Degla, Gisburn) for the post part. But I tend to change tyres if its slopping wet and I'm at Inners. Am I taking myself too seriously?

For me tubeless isn't about going fast it's about not getting punctures

Ah, the Gift of Future Faff. That's what the 4th Wiseman brought baby Jesus wasn't it?

Changing tyres for where you ride is taking riding pushbikes too seriously

I don't mean to be a jerk, honestly:

buy oh the irony.

Its really not a faff if you do it right. UST tyres on UST rims are not any harder to fit than a "normal" tyre and tube combination.

When I first started using tubeless it was like "ZOMG!!! there's no tube in it WOW!" Now I wonder why anyone bothers with tubes in mountain bike tyres.

daft question (because I'm thinking about tubeless for my new wheels (ZTR Crest rims) - do you need tubeless specific tyres - or can any tyres be made to work with the right kit?

It only takes me a few minutes to swap a tyre, but I have proper tubeless rims, and a compressor. I wouldn't be so keen without the compressor and I wouldn't swap at all if I was using a tubeless bodge.

Exactly. It's not too bad with a track pump with UST rims and new tyres, but pop them on and off a few times and the swearing to inflation ratio goes up.

It's great, and I wouldn't be without tubeless (lots of flint and thorns) myself, but it's not for someone who wants to swap tyres on an uplift day for example, it'd just waste good riding time.

Most XC racers I know run two sets of wheels, set up with bald and slightly less bald tyres to cover the season and save faff.

Makes me laugh, people on here go on about [s]the hilarity of 650B "making the trail come alive", then go spend 20 minutes trying to change a tyre[/s] tubeless being a solution in search of a problem only to bring a tube with them in case it [s]burps[/s]/pops/flat anyway - why? Because [s]it makes the trail come alive.[/s] they insist on repeating the same mistake over and over again

FTFY 😉 I ride some trails where you can fix one flat and have another two in the next 100m (thorns). Tubeless has completely done away with this. The only flat I've had in a few years now shredded the tyre, which would have meant the same for a tube anyway. YMMV though.

Swapping tyres takes 15-20mins with a shonky trackpump.

When I moved to tubeless I wasn't sure I understood either. I had more faff with punctures that weren't sealing than when I used tubes. I was splitting sidewalls, tearing off nobbles and basically wasting far more of my precious riding time trying to keep air in my tyres than I ever did when I used tubes. When I changed to some different tyres things improved, but unless you ride in a style/locations where punctures are common I'm still unconvinced there's a huge benefit to going tubeless. Yes, I gather running lower pressure gives you better grip, but not to the extent where I've been bowled over by the improvement.

How does tubeless cause knobbles to come off 😕

if you have a compressor and teh right rims etc 20mins yes, if you have not then it could be anything from 20 mins to 2hrs swearing and failure

I usually find with UST tyre that the first time can be a nightmare, but the second is a lot easier - the bead has stretched a bit, and it seats a lot better. Not sure what happens if you're regularly taking them on and off, though.

I don't change tyres very often, but if the sealant is reasonably fresh it can be re-used. I have a Stan's Injector, which does an excellent job of sucking the sealant up ready to put into the next tyre.

Whenever I do change tyres, I am amazed by the number of thorns in them, surrounded by blobs of air-retaining latex gloop.

Keeping a big bottle of sealant in the garage so you remember to top up tyres in between changes occasionally is worthwhile.

I think tubeless is the least useful of recent innovations, but with a bit of practice I consider it somewhat useful.

🙂

Then you've got the ability to run lower pressures [s]without[/s] with less chance of pinch flatting

Cos when you do it's a whole lot worse having put holes in the tyre sidewall rather than just the tube.

TBH I prefer to fit a set of tyres that suit the bikes main intended use, and not change them unless I really need to...

It's not too hard to change a UST tyre, but there's some faffing obviously, not that tubed tyres are always a smooth operation to change but if I were a serial tyre changer, I'd stick to Tubes.

Is two sets of wheels ridiculous? I have DH wheels with dual ply tacky tyres and a road cassette with a nice short chain and some much lighter wheels with a long range cassette and longer chain. Takes about ten minutes to change over if that.

That's what it would be about for me. Though I should balance that with the fact it takes about 5 mins to repair a puncture / change a tube.

So I had 9 thorns in my tyre last time, 9x5 mins = 40mins, then you have to fix your tubes etc.

Plus as someone pointed out earlier, the faff is done in the warm environment of the garage/shed prior to riding, not on the trail in the rain with your mates waiting for you.

Then you've got the ability to run lower pressures without with less chance of pinch flatting
Cos when you do it's a whole lot worse having put holes in the tyre sidewall rather than just the tube.

Because your tubes completely protect your tyres... don't they?

OP it's a tyre without a tube 😉

I have recently purchased arch rims, and reckon I will go down the tubeless route later in the year.

For the last couple of years I have been using slime tubes, which seem to deal very nicely with the large amount of hawthorn thorns around where I ride. They seem a good compromise to me.

How does tubeless cause knobbles to come off

I wasn't (intentionally) suggesting it does, but when a knobble tears off and leaves a hole in your tyre for air to come out, it's a bit bloomin' frustrating that the sealant doesn't do its one simple job of sealing.

I'm convinced tubeless is an answer to a problem that never existed.

hate em. but equally had two in 4 years.

*also run lighter setups on other bikes, a lot more reliable than tubes were [i]for me[/i] but not bulletproof.

Changing to tubeless stopped my tyre changing habit and made me just get out and ride and not precede every ride with faff.

I don't find tubeless anymore of a faff than tubes. Less in fact, as you are not always fixing them. Plus you get a far better ride, what's not to like.

Anyway, constantly swapping tyres depending on where you ride is really taking things a bit over serious IMHO. If you occasionally want a heavy duty tyre on then you swap and it's not really a faff, just a bit messy but not too bad. If you often swap then you probably better off with a new set of wheels anyway. Heavy duty and light wheels with matching tyres make more sense then just putting heavy duty tyres on light wheels, so I don't know why you suggest it's ridiculous.

Do you need separate wheel sets for different tires (this would obviously be ridiculous,

Need? No. Is it desirable? Yes.

I have a set of heavy duty wheels, cheaper ones that I shove on for uplift days with dual-ply tyres etc. No way I'm taking my expensiverer ones on an uplift day(BPW excluded)

I tried tubeless for a few weeks. I thought it was going ok and then I had a burp going over a tiny innocuous roller at Gawton and this happened to the rear.
[img] [/img]

I stuck a tube in it but carried on with the front one.
One day I was rattling down a descent at Afan when the front burped too and sent me flying into the bushes and rolling along on my nice Flow rim momentarily...
I've given up after that. At least when tubes go it doesn't tend to be quite so instantly and dramatically... 😯

Gotcha, cheers stilltortoise

High roller, how simple is it to change them over?

Took a swampthing off and put a smorgasbord on with a track pump in under 10 minutes a couple of nights ago. I'd probably take longer faffing with a tube.

I'm convinced tubeless is an answer to a problem that never existed.

hate em. but equally had two in 4 years.

Then tubeless is maybe not the answer for you.

My pre-tubeless record for punctures was three in a single descent. All pinchflats on Garburn Pass.
I now run all three MTBs tubeless with dual plys on the rear. Problem solved. 😀

I tried tubeless for a few weeks. I thought it was going ok and then I had a burp going over a tiny innocuous roller at Gawton and this happened to the rear.

just out of curiosity, were the rims pikey ?

for me, one of the best things i changed on the bike going tubeless. never had a problem except one tyre rip on a nobby nic, never burped even after some tasty drops. i do prefer the wider rim though which i think helps.

9x5 mins = 40mins

skeetsgb - Member
I tried tubeless for a few weeks. I thought it was going ok and then I had a burp going over a tiny innocuous roller at Gawton and this happened to the rear.
just out of curiosity, were the rims pikey ?

Stans flow-ex with rim strips. Ardent EXO tyres.

When I think about punctures... I've been almost entirely tubeless, with proper tubeless rims, for about 3 years (wasted some time fannying around with ghetto before that, never again). In that time, I reckon I've had about 10 proper punctures offroad. Half of those were on a ****ing awful pair of Nobby Nic Evos that just couldn't do the job, they went in the bin. One of them, I blew a tyre off the rim, on account of running a 2.5 Nevegal on a Stans olympic at about 5psi on my rigid bike. Worked well most of the time! And another was just a standard flat. Might be some more of those that I've forgotten. Plus assorted "oh tyre has gone soft" which caused minor pumping faff.

But the other 3, were tubes. And considering that maybe 1% of all my riding these days is on tubes, it's a bit telling that 30% of all the flats were on tubes.

id never return to tubes - used to pinch flat nearly every ride, despite running high pressures. switched to tubeless, and a couple of flats in 3 years. one was a side wall rip, the other i just pumped up and carried on.

I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this.

I'm convinced tubeless is an answer to a problem that never existed.

there's never ever been any threads on here asking about specific tyre-rim combos, how to seat them, nor any about ghetto compressors, nor those asking how many days before they stop weeping jiz. 😉

2 flats, 6000km, one fo which makes no sense whatsoever (wheeling bike across some stones from Super Morzine gondola to Zore chair lift and got a 1inch split on the *inside* of the tube.) The other was thru a nobble on a highroller.

My total outlay on tubes since 2008 might just about come to 25% of the cost of 1 Stan's jiz conversion kit.

I might consider UST tyres on UST rims, but that's not specifically to say "I run tubeless", but just a side effect of having such a compatible set of stuff.

But then here in Germany, we have special stones on the single tracks, and mountains are made of special rock that caresses Schwalbe tyres and makes sure they don't puncture.

Definitely a thumbs up for me. It's really scary how quickly time flies as it'll be 10 years in August since I first tried tubeless with a pair of Mavic 823's bought just before an Alps holiday in 2004. I ran a 2.5 High Roller out back, and a soft Schwalbe Al-Mighty up front, and I spent a happy week hitting all the DH trails on my Yeti ASX without a single puncture, despite running slightly lower pressures than usual. I've had so few punctures during the past 10 years I'm sure if I think hard enough I can recall each of them.
For me tubeless has dramatically reduced pinch flats, which were previously a common occurrence unless tyres were run stupidly hard, while allowing me to eek out grip with slightly lower tyre pressures. Changing tyres these days is no more of a faff than fixing or replacing tubes. You do have to hone your tyre changing skills though, which only comes from having the odd PITA experience 🙂

Rather than swapping tyres why not just buy a new bike?

9x5 mins = 40mins 😕

If you look further up he said it actually took him 4mins 26.6secs to change a tube until he edited it...

I know a lot of people despise them but I use Slime tubes as I get a lot of punctures from riding near me, mostly from hawthawn hedges being cut. When I change my tyres I always replace the tube too as there are normally 6 or 7 thorns in each tube, none of which I have noticed as the slime sealed them without even a drop in pressure.

Costs about £8 for a tube and adds a bit of weight but that's the least of my problems.

I went tubeless not long after they first came out, it was crap, went back a few years later and it's been great.

Given how cheep a dose of fluid is relative to tubes you could pour it away and change tyres quicker than with tubes. Or spend 30 seconds scooping 90% of it out and re-using it.

Had tubes in for one ride in the last couple of years (new bike, took it straight out from the shop), got 2 punctures, tubelessed those tyres that evening.

'Ghetto' tubeless is one of those upgrades that's so cheep, easy to do and so effective I do wonder why some people don't bother. It's like hobbling yourself by removing the pedals as pedal bearing maintenance is a faff or you dont want to replace SPD cleats.

Given how cheep a dose of fluid is relative to tubes you could pour it away and change tyres quicker than with tubes

'Ghetto' tubeless is one of those upgrades that's so cheep, easy to do and so effective I do wonder why some people don't bother.

I'm a tubeless fan but I'll not do ghetto again, it just never worked well for me even though others say the exact same methods have worked. I'm happy using non-tubeless tyres but the rims make a big difference imo.

Then you've got the ability to run lower pressures without with less chance of pinch flatting
Cos when you do it's a whole lot worse having put holes in the tyre sidewall rather than just the tube.

Because your tubes completely protect your tyres... don't they?

No, but what I mean is, when you pinch puncture tubeless it's worse because then in 99% of cases the tyre becomes impossible to run tubeless again because the cuts are right on the bead line of the sidewall which means they don't seal and are a bugger to patch.

It's surprising how much the tube does help to protect the tyre sidewall, I've pinch punctured about half a dozen tubeless tyres over the years, but can only remember a couple of times when i've put pinch pucture holes in the sidewall of non-tubless tyres when I've pinch flatted the tube.

I often hear people portraying tubeless as an end to pinch punctures while simultaneously being able to run lower pressures, that has not been my experience, I've been running tubless using UST, TR and normal tyres in varies setups for almost a decade and I'm definitely pro-tubeless but it's a not a magic fix for everything, you can run lower pressures, sometimes (a lot fo the time in fact), but there's still the risk of pinch flats and when it happens its a lot more annoying, and you can't go super low if you're into hard riding without risking burps, but it all depends on how and where you ride.

Over the years, I've pretty much settled on running the same pressures tubed and tubeless but just getting better grip and comfort and [i]reduced [/i]punctures on the tubless ones.

Is there something in particular about how/where you ride that means you either do/don't get loads of punctures thus making tubeless worthwhile? I ride local natural stuff - Caesar's Camp/Tunnel Hill/ranges/Surrey Hills - plus the usual trail centres in Wales, Swinley, and have had two punctures in the last two years. Never thought I run the tyres particularly hard, and I weigh 190lbs so not exactly a featherweight either.

Genuinely wondering why some people puncture so much and others don't? I've thought about tubeless but honestly can't see why it would be an advantage to me.

Genuinely wondering why some people puncture so much and others don't? I've thought about tubeless but honestly can't see why it would be an advantage to me.

Because the variety of riding and riders is massive. It's not just about punctures, tubeless tends to offer more grip and more comfort as well, would that not be an advantage to you?

[i]where[/i] you ride - maybe, if your local patch is really rocky or littered with hawthorns then yes, but to be honest tubeless positives mean it's worthwhile anywhere.

[i]how [/i]you ride - definitely, if your thing is sweeping flowy woodland singletrack then pinch punctures are probably the least of your worries, where as if you're a flinty, pointy rock gully DH rider then its a different game altogether.

Obviously for most of us the reality is a mixture of varied terrain but some people are a lot harder on their bike and tyres than others and it's not just about rider weight, I know some really lightweight guys who absolutely pummel their bikes, equally I know some really big heavy guys who can ride with the finesse of a dainty woodland fairy.

I found tubeless a right faff at first but you get used to all the tricks after a while and it gets a lot easier to set up. The Stans Injector thing is really good if you want to reuse the gunk when swapping tyres, almost zero wastage.

The problem round our way is thorns which kill tubes and flints which cut tyres which tubeless gunk won't heal. Got some Snakeskin RoRo's now though, so we'll see if those help.

I always thought there was only a *slight* difference in ride quality between tubes / tubeless. However, I recently fixed a front wheel flat half way down a steady bumpy hill and was quite surprised with a direct comparison on how much worse the small bump absorbtion is with a tube.

My 2p for what its worth,

tubeless is great [b]if[/b] you get regular punctures, whether from thorns or pinch flats or some other way? If you don't get regular punctures then there is very little point and I wouldn't try and force tubeless onto those people.

If you do decide to move to tubeless, it only makes sense if your rims and tyres are designed to be run as such. The ghetto or non ghetto conversion strips can be very hit and miss (just look at all the tubeless help threads in the past). A UST or Stans rim or similar that is actually designed to be run tubeless is the only way to go.

Using a proper tubeless rim and tyres means there is very little faff compared to fitted a normal tyre. My tubeless tyres are no harder to change than normal ones. Where I would take a few seconds to insert a tube, I now take a few seconds to insert some sealant solution.

The tyres usually inflate without too much bother too. A bit of quick pumping for a few secs to initially get the bead onto the hook and then its fine. Or if you use a high volume pump like my friends pump then just pump as normal.

If I had to regularly huff and puff and use all kinds of compressors etc I wouldn't bother with tubeless either.

I know some really big heavy guys who can ride with the finesse of a dainty woodland fairy.

Isn't that just STW mincecore riding 😆

I went tubeless last Jan and love it. I had no issues getting it set up (Havoc UST wheels with Schawble TR HD's). In fact I was surprised at the lack of swearing and tantrums. I wouldn't go back now but I;m not really a seriel tyre changer; I run HD's most of the time and stick on some dual ply Maxxis tyres for uplift days.

I've never really suffered too badly with punctures - even on my DH bike I'd use XC tubes and still ran lowish pressures. I do think that tubeless feels a bit better though and id saved a bit of weight for me.

Changing tyres for where you ride is taking riding pushbikes too seriously.

People question me for riding Kenda Small block 8s through sloppy winters but even I'm not daft enough to use them for descending at Triscombe or FOD.

I don't ride Small blocks in winter because i'm tubeless but because i'm a cheapskate, also because i've had 2 punctures in the last 5yrs, (both were caused by glass on pavements) i don't feel the need to switch.

€70 for a tubeless conversion kit
or €7 for 2 tubes.
I don't call that "cheep"

£1.99 for a roll of electrical tape, valve from an old tube.

£1 for a dose of stans fluid (buy it by the quart it costs about the same as 6 tubes and fills 20 tyres)

yeah people are on here all the time trying to get tyres with tube to seat and seal, and spending hours over it. then trying agin 3 days later when they've gashed together a ghetto compressor from a coke bottle and pipes

Thats because they're not doing it right, a whole roll of electrical tape only weighs about 30g, just keep adding tape untill it. All of my wheels will go up with a mini pump if needs be.

The only tyres I can't seat are wire bead maxxis dual ply 2.5's. They just wont adopt the same shape as the rim.

My Hans dampf seat on stans flow ex with track pump, so easy I would do it once a week

when you pinch puncture tubeless it's worse because then in 99% of cases the tyre becomes impossible to run tubeless again because the cuts are right on the bead line of the sidewall which means they don't seal and are a bugger to patch

Sticky worms

Patch in side for pinches seems to work.

As for how difficult it is to change tyres, I swapped a UST tyre in a car park in barely 5 minutes with nowt but a track pump and a bit more slime and managed to recycle most of the old goop. OK it was a Tu eless ready tyre and UST rim, which is definitely easier but hardly the compressor powered disaster others are making it out to be.

Why tubeless? It makes a big reduction in thorn and spikey stuff punctures meaning less stoppage time and it is more tolerant of fat knacker with low pressures.

Hans dampf seat on stans flow ex with track pump

My experience too, but I'd not go that far.

I'm a light person, but I used to get flats all the time. Slow punctures, trail side ones, annoying ones picked up while descending, pinch flats, you name it, I've had it. Low lights include turning up for a ride with one tube, finding a slow puncture, repairing it, and puncturing mid-ride and having to turn back.

Since I went tubeless I've had one incident where the tyre started pissing sealant. Would have probably sealed, but guide thought it best to put a tube in. It reseated fine once we were back at base. Same tyre is still running on the bike with no problems. This is in over 2 years of using tubeless.

Oh, and never having to fix the missus' punctures is an added bonus.

I think it's a 'ymmv' thing.

I like the feel of my tubelessed tyres but have had attempts with rims that didn't want to know - older deeper section rims like 321's. I've heard the 'many rounds of tape' but never tried it.

I think the biggest problem is the amount of misinformation. People assume that their experience is universal and gift it to all via the internet and then you end up with some poor kid struggling with unsuitable rims, a loose winding of stans yellow and a valve jammed through it wondering why it won't work and making a mess cos they followed instructions telling them to put the goop in first then mount the tyre. If you're not running UST and compatible beads then there's potential for issues regardless if they happen or not. Bear in mind some tyre/rim combos can be challenging to mount in the first place!

Fwiw, I still have my Asda Smartprice cola bottle bodge and often use it, simply because now I have it, it's easy to use.

There are people I'd never advise to try tubeless just like there are people I'd never recommend a bunch of MTB things to. They're way more than fashion accessories though.

amedias - Member

No, but what I mean is, when you pinch puncture tubeless it's worse because then in 99% of cases the tyre becomes impossible to run tubeless again because the cuts are right on the bead line of the sidewall which means they don't seal and are a bugger to patch.

Standard patch on the inside? I've only done a couple (generally on used tyres) and it's always worked perfectly.

I think the real problem with pinches and tubeless is that normally, if you have tubes, you pinch and you go "bugger" and you add more air next time. But with tubeless, you bang the rim and get away with it and keep going til you have a rim that looks like a saw blade 😆

I used to be one of those riders that would pinch puncture nearly every ride, so tubeless made perfect sense to me.

My Unit came with tubeless ready rims, my Pitch is still on its standard DT Swiss rims with Superstar tape no issues.

Of course I still carry a tube, as do folk that use tubes.

I'd not go back to tubes, the time saved it patching them up every week is worth it, never mind uninterrupted flow on the trails with not having to swap tubes.