Trying to get to 4w/kg

Slightly more ambitious, but some good tips/reading:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/project-5-watts-per-kg/

My plan is 2 turbo sessions a week of an hour ea h

I suspect that's not enough riding, even when adding in the outdoors stuff.

I'm in the same boat, although slightly heavier.

The jiggle in my belly indicates I'm probably better off reducing weight than increasing power.

This might be of interest too

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/operation-4w-kg-improved-upper-body-strength/

My plan is 2 turbo sessions a week of an hour ea h – following a Trainer Road plan. I’m swapping the TR weekend ride for a decent mtb tide – usually 600-800m of climbing over 2.5 hours ish so tss according to TR usually exceeds the planned indoor session.

To hit 4w/kg based on a ramp test I need to get to an ftp of 300watts with a weight of 75kgs. I think this might be a bit out of reach with the time I have to put into it but going to give it a go.

This is just a notional target to push on my fitness – there is no race or anything I’m aiming for. I’m 42 now and feel I can push my fitness on as long as I have enough recovery time between sessions.

I'm the same age as you, and at my peak FTP of 279w in September last year, I was 73kg, so tantalising close at 3.82w/kg. From there I went down to 260w, I think from not enough training (3x TR sessions a week) and then a took a break. I'm now going to ride again a few times a week, outdoors and indoors to get my fitness back up to somewhere in the mid 200's before a big Scotland trip at the end of April.

You're at 240w and 76.5kg, so 3.13w/kg.

I can tell you now, 3 sessions a week isn't going to be enough. The gains you're going to see now after a couple of years of training will be smaller and smaller, I went up 10w in 5 months last year. A 5w gain on a test after a 6-8wk block is going to be a good gain.

I may try again for the 4w/kg target this winter when I'm in peak condition (ha!) after a summer of biking, but it'll be hard and I fully expect to have to be doing 4-5 rides a week.

My plan is 2 turbo sessions a week of an hour ea h – following a Trainer Road plan. I’m swapping the TR weekend ride for a decent mtb tide – usually 600-800m of climbing over 2.5 hours ish so tss according to TR usually exceeds the planned indoor session

I'd say you're looking at a minimum of 10 hours of structured on the bike training per week, coupled with correct diet and a lot of recovery, its harder to improve the older you are and at 42 you're already in the realms of maintaining what you've got with smaller increases,. not quite so dramatic ones - that is of course unless you're a good 10kg over weight which I doubt you are with what you say.

My last tested (ramp test thingy) FTP was 281W @ 78kg, so 3.6w/kg and I find that relatively maintainable, if I had the 10 hours per week spare I could maybe add up to 10w and lose say 4kg - where I was in 2018, but in 24hr race shape, thus giving a possible 3.93w/kg, but I ain't got time fo' that shit anymore.

I'm trying to get in a fitness push...having a bit of luck on my side as I'm about 18 kg heavier than I'd like to be, so I'm hoping as the weight comes down, the fitness will 'improve' - I'm not too bothered about figures, but I'm hoping less bulk to shift will make things easier. Started doing some swimming and some strength sessions and getting more time on the bike as well. The diet is a constant work in progress, but the weight is starting to slowly drop, so I'm hoping to see and feel improvements. However, I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near those figures just now and unlikely to be there, but targets are definitely helpful to keep progressing.

This time last year, I was riding approx 7-11.5 hours a week, riding everyday for at least 30mins. I was simply trying to get back some fitness after flu in Oct '21 dropped my FTP to ~200W, from being in the 250-290W ballpark for the previous ~4 years, having started to ride for fitness in Jan '17 at age of 43.

While I had random goals of getting an FTP of 300W+ and 4W/Kg+ from before the pandemic started, I mentally gave up chasing that idea after a rollercoaster of health issues that started in March '20. So I was rather surprised to get very close to 4W/Kg for 20mins a few times in Zwift events that took me 18/19mins last year, without having any idea at the time. Lots of personal bests last summer outdoors and even a few top 10s on hilly segments, despite struggling to get under 80Kg when I was typically 73-78Kg from Aug '17 to Apr '20.

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/tt-tuneup was amazing for a boost in early '20, but the last few weeks are EVIL, do not do an FTP test part way through the plan!

Last year it was increasing amounts of sub 20min sprint races on Zwift, on top of Z1/2 rides. Zwift Insider Tiny Races are great for training repeatability of big efforts after little recovery, four sprints in an hour usually.

Has anyone else got any experience of working towards this sort of thing in their 40’s or older? Any tips etc?

yep, I went from 82 kg and an ftp of about 200 to an ftp of 270 at 66 kg, in about a year, aged 43

the weight loss came mainly from cutting out beer and junk food. Didn’t do any structured training as such, just rode more at a reasonable high intensity

now the bad news..

I was starting from absolute rock bottom. The gains were very quick after about 6 months, but after than didn’t get much else. And I’ve recently started a structured plan and in 4 months I’ve gained about 10 watts total

I’d say, if you are reasonably trained already, there is hee haw chance of you adding 60 watts on to your ftp. If the target is watts per kilo, try losing weight instead. It’s far far easier

I'd step back and think about what you want to do with your 'fitness' and how relevant ftp is to that - could you get more bang for your time buck by working specifically on other areas? What I mean by that is that two people could both have the same ftp, but one of them might be far better at recovering from hard efforts than the other, so in the real world, on a hard mountain bike ride for example, they would be stronger overall.

The example I always cite was a mate who was an iron man triathlete, so really well adapted to sustained, sub-threshold efforts. On the road I struggled to hold his wheel, off road I could kill him just by dragging him over threshold repeatedly, which he simply wasn't used to. I get that there's crossover, but with only two interval sessions a week, you're going to struggle to make big ftp improvements I think, but even more importantly, they might not benefit your actual riding / fitness as much as you imagine.

I got wiped out by long covid for 18 months. A year after getting back on the bike, my ftp isn't far short of what it was before, but my top-end and recovery from those efforts is much reduced, my real world 'fitness' on a mountain bike at least, is much reduced. My plan this spring is to focus on that rather than driving arbitrary ftp increases just because they're there.

Have you tried following one of the programs on Zwift? I did Build Me Up last year with the occasional gym and real ride thrown in and just scraped 4w/kg at 86kgs and an FTP of 349w by the end of it, started out at 320 ish i think - the goal was to get fitter and lose a bit of timber but I don't have the discipline for the diet 🙁

It was good for a few weeks but all high watt + high rpm intervals on training plans quickly became unbearable and often cramp inducing (might need a bike fit)

FTP currently sitting at 311 although not done a 20 minute flat out stint for ages. Mostly doing pace partner rides to get the miles in, have had a few 1hr stints with a 300w avg in the last month. If I wanted to have a go at increasing FTP i'd definitely do that Build Me Up programme again, if I wanted to get to 4w/kg I'd probably go see a hypnotist to stop me chinning the biscuits and crisps but at your weight that doesn't sound like as much of an issue.

He's using trainerroad so equivalent at the very least.

IMO keep doing what you are doing and if you add more make sure it's not high intensity.

If you ramp up and too much more or too much more hard stuff too quickly you'll only end up knocking yourself back again with illness.

4wkg is probably unrealistic this year but possible by next spring but the hard bit is keeping up gaining through summer rather than just going out and enjoying riding in the sun and potentially "losing" fitness.

FTP gains aren't everything though. Intervals give you better recovery between efforts and being able to maintain high power for longer.

Just reading back over my own thread has got me realising I need to get back on the horse - 10 weeks until my big Scotland trip (Inc a week in Torridon where I'm going to need all the fitness I can get!).

I've ordered a new rear mech and cable for my zwift bike to sort the clunky shifting, £22 well spent I think. I was doing TR sessions, low volume 3x a week but was seeing minimal progress/going backwards and got a bit dejected - I find it very easy to lose motivation so I'm going to ramp up my riding from the current once a week to 3-4x a week over the next 2-3 weeks with some group rides/workouts, then I think I might do the 4wk FTP builder on Zwift, it's 7x 1hr workouts a week but I may do it over a slightly longer period.

I think the posts about are probably right in terms of intensity required, 3-4hrs a week isn't enough. I'm "lucky" in that although I'm tall, I'm not carrying any extra weight up top (apart from a slight belly which seems to appear easier and easier if I stop training) so I'm light for my height. I reckon I could get down close to 70kg, but I don't think I'd look good at that weight.

Dropping weight is most definitely easier than gaining watts, you'll need to make sure you're not carrying an ounce of excess bodyweight as well as trying to eek out as many watts as you can.

It took me 12 hours a week of structured training to get to 285W at 65kg, over about 9 months. I had an event to work towards which was the only way I could be motivated to do the work.

This was at 41.

It might have been a bit easier if I hadn't had a massive hole in my heart, unknown at the time. My mates training the same amount and for the same thing got to 300-320W while also being slightly lighter than me.

I agree with most of the advice given above. The average person needs a lot more than 4.5 hours per week to increase cycling fitness to a good level. I would suggest 10 hours a week, not all of that can be high intensity, as you would burn out.

To get to your goal figure (which is a bit arbitrary) you need to lose a bit of fat and increase fitness. Realistic figures are probably 65kg and 260watts FTP. Not sure how easy it would be for you to lose 10kg plus but no doubt it is possible if you have the willpower. It might not be worth it though. It’s up to you.

Just another data point, how tall are you/how are you built.

75 kilos and 190 tall is a whole different kettle of fish to 75 and 165...

Ditto if you are built for weights, cycling. Or pies...

Got to about 4.2w/kg a couple of years ago, but as echoed above it requires a fair commitment to hours on the bike, and hiding the biscuit tin.

I was only about 62kg and did one of the Zwift 12 week plans, to get me to about 260w FTP. I only ever use the 20 minute test, as I find the ramp test tends to give you a figure on the high side, and can be difficult to sustain if used as a base for a training program.

Hardest part is keeping motivated to do the sessions, not being too knackered to ride with your mates, and being careful what you eat.

I'd lost 14kg over the previous three years and tend to yo-yo between 65-61kg, with the odd 68kg at Christmas. So it tends to be a temporary w/kg depending on other factors?

Good luck with it, it's fun when you get a decent level of strength / fitness.

Thanks all - it’s definitely an arbitrary figure with no real aim behind it other than to motivate me on.

I’m 5’9 and stocky ish - longer leg than body. I’ve done a lot of weights over the years on and off - I can dumbell bench press the 25kg dumbbells to give an idea and clean and press about 50kg at the moment.

I didn’t mention I typically do one swim a week of about a mile and probably 2 weight training sessions on top of TR and going out on my bike.

I don’t think I’ll get below 74kgs at best tbh - I had a good go at weight loss either last year or the one before and took a few slightly miserable food months to get to 74.3kgs and I don’t really want to repeat that. 75kgs doesn’t have to cut too many nice things out.

I use the ‘lose it’ app and typically try to work on 1700 net calories a day. So more exercise = more calories but I’m probably in a small deficit at 1700. Intend to weigh a lot of food as it’s very easy to eat more calories than you think and burn less during exercise than you think you do.

Im mostly into mtb so being able to do a strong base amount of watts with the ability to go up to / over threshold in short bursts is broadly where things need to be. The likes of the Cafell climb at Cwmcarn is the thing that beasts me the most I’d say.

TR plan has a long base period of sweet spot - I find higher watt efforts ok for short periods - but it’s the longer intervals that I find hard. Part physical exertion but also mental. Happy to carry on with TR as it plays nicely with just an iPhone / HR strap  and nothing else required.

I took up road riding in a serious vein at the age of 38 (I'd always rode mountain bikes, but with no real focus on fitness). After a few years of just riding around on the road I then started to add in some training, initially with an FTP of 220 watts and weighing about 80kgs. The training was just doing two Sufferfest rides a week (back in the day it was  Angles and one other I don't remember). This was on a dumb trainer, so not really accurate.

As I progressed I started to ride with a team and then decided to get proper coaching. It was incredibly hard work but I ended up with an FTP of 308 and a weight of 67kgs. But I was riding an awful lot and was being really mindful about my diet. I would have been about 42 when this happened. I could have probably advanced my FTP a bit further, but I had a family and a job to balance, A lot of our training was also race specifc, so not just FTP focused - sprints / recovery / sprints.....I hated it. The younger guys seemed able to recover better from multiple sprints than I could.

With racing though, I really struggled to enjoy the riding and the training. This was probably overtraining on my part. But it was insanely hard to maintain the same level of fitness and actually enjoy and have fun being out on the bike. It got to the point where there was no riding to enjoy riding, it was either training or racing. And I was feeling wiped out, properly tired all the time, not just on the bike.

I then took a year out of racing/training and my FTP dropped like a stone while my weight ballooned. At 46 I then decided I wanted to race again, I started training and managed to get my FTP back to 290 and my weight to 70kgs. I wasn't doing real structured training, was doing the STW Zwift Races (both TT and the individual race), plus a couple of long outdoor rides, at least one being a very easy social ride. The first race of the season was booked for the April and then COVID hit  and all racing was cancelled for the year. Afterr that I was completely demotivated and just rode socially - the FTP once again dropped and the weight came back.

I'm training and riding again, but just for the enjoyment of it. My FTP is 235 watts, which is quite poor in my view and my weight is 78kgs, which I'm happy enough with.

If any of the above sounds like a moan, its not. I absolutely loved every moment of every race I was in. Even when I was spat out of the back or when in a solo breakaway and riding at threshold knowing full well I'm doomed - it was really fun.....incredibly hard, but fun. I

(My FTP Tests were carried out at the Athletes Lab in London and also the Sufferfest 4DP test process - generally the 20 minute test, but with hard  efforts before the 20 min test starts)

I did it on 10hrs a week in 2020 for something to do in lockdown, dropping to 73kg.

I remember slimming down that much was horrendous and you have to be careful you can still fuel your cycling, but the plan I had was very hard intervals of increasing time / billet / nothing less that sweet spot for a about 5 months (I started at 3.7wkg).

Probably not something I'd do again TBH.

Got to about 3.8-3.9 over 45min to hour races in turbo this winter. That's based on a 3 or 4 hour ride once a week with a couple of mid week hours and a very short 15min each way commute. Nearer 50 than 45 sadly

If you ramp up and too much more or too much more hard stuff too quickly you’ll only end up knocking yourself back again with illness.

I'm slowly learning this at 43. Applies across all activities, i.e. you need to balance the gym work with the cycling. I'm finding it helpful to slow down the progression, compared to 10 years ago. So I'm programming 21 weeks at a time in the gym, rather than 4, and I've recently started using the adaptive training in TR to try and stop myself pushing too hard.

I use the ‘lose it’ app and typically try to work on 1700 net calories a day. So more exercise = more calories but I’m probably in a small deficit at 1700. Intend to weigh a lot of food as it’s very easy to eat more calories than you think and burn less during exercise than you think you do.

I'd recommend having a look at MacroFactor if you like tracking what you eat. It infers your energy expenditure from what you're eating and what you weigh, which they claim is much more accurate that trying to figure it out based on estimates of calories burned by particular activities.

Yes I'm religiously following the adaptions recommended in TR but also using AI detection for FTP as I can't be bothered doing any "tests". Ramp seemed accurate for me. I'm typically replacing the threshold session with an hard MTB ride and getting the V02 and SS session done each week. Reasonable upward trend on about 4 hours a week. Slowly trying to add a bit more time with the view to be back up to around 7 hours riding a week in Spring and mostly outdoors.

Building back up from a poor year then a round of Covid. Highest I ever got to was 280w and now expecting to be back to 250w when I next "test". Stopped Zwift racing and forced into not starting training too soon so I'm not feeling utterly flogged by this time of the year. Building towards spring rather than holding on.

The adaptive training bit in TR quite often seems to play about with the levels of the next few sessions - to start with it was scaling back the levels but the last week it’s upped the difficulty of them a bit. Seems to be working quite nicely right now. Got a few more tough ones then the week after next is made up of easier endurance thing as a kind of rest week. Then it’s ramp test again and then back on the sweet spot.

Good luck Joe!

I had it as my goal for Jan ‘23. “4.0 by 40.”

In the end, I don’t know how close I got as I didn’t bother testing.

Instead I’ve been working hard on my Z2 to try and go into the summer feeling invincible and then hopefully build the highest peak I’ve ever reached on top of that.

My eFTP got up to 367w last year but at the time I was about 97kg.

It does make me laugh when people say “just ride your bike lots and the weight will fall off”. I did 11800kj last week and ended up a lb heavier 🤣

Or “make sure you fuel the work and the weight will take care of itself”. I tried that last year and put on 10lb on 10hrs cycling a week 🤣🤣

I have gone away from caring about FTP as a metric now too. With longer events (Dirty Reiver and ToC) as my goals, I’m not convinced it’s much use. You certainly don’t need it to structure your training for anything other than 40k TT’s.

I’m focussing on my 2hr power at the moment. In the next few  months I want to reach 120mins @ 300w.  I’ve started building on my 2hr Z2  sessions to get to 120mins @ 271w ( tempo HR) so far, which according to intervals.icu is top 97% of my age group.

My FTP could be 305 or it could be 400 right now- I have no idea  🤷🏻‍♂️

@crosshair - thanks!

I can’t out exercise diet - I so much as look at a calories and I on weight - so have to be relatively careful to lose weight past a certain point. To go below 76kgs I have to be quite strict and train a decent amount.

Other people can drop weight quickly and get really lean - but on the flip side of that if they wanted to put on a load of muscle and strength they’d struggle where I wouldn’t - so it’s swings and roundabouts really.

Then there are the small % of ********** who have the best of both worlds and I hate them 🤣

I'm guessing you're on the sweet spot base/build low volume plan?

You'll definitely need to start adding some extra volume once you get towards the 3.5w/kg mark. Out of interest, even though we're similar weights, we're completely different builds (6ft 3in, skinny, can barely do more than 2-3 pull ups). My peak 5s power was 850w, I'd expect yours to be well over 1000w.

On all my previous ramp test my legs were giving out before my heart rate maxed out, I'd normally hit 180bpm or so. On my latest ramp test after 8 weeks off the bike, I hit 195bpm, which was a new max HR. So for me, training my upper power and bring able to hold that for longer than 30 seconds sees me getting big improvements.

@ta11pau1

Yes I think so - selected enduro and for a 3 hour event in May when I setup the plan. It’s got more than last few plans on sweet spot then ramps up with some more threshold and vo2 max sessions towards the end.

I’m not amazing at pull-ups but improving on them - built wide grip pull ups into my back and biceps weight training session. Also got deadlift / inverted rows / single arm bent over rows and a bicep exercise or two in that session. Plus glute bridges to help build the core.

Tbf if I got to 3.5w/kg that would be the best I’ve ever got to - think 3.39 is the highest so far mid last year.

I got to 4w/kg on three dedicated workouts a week and a bit of Z2 chucked in. Just make sure the turbo sessions are really high quality and you fuel properly. It's definitely doable, just don't expect it to happen quickly.

Consistency is key!

Been there at 4 and a smidge W/kg a few years back for a season. Absolutely none of it involved a turbo at any point. I  am not a small person either: I was between 81-82kg and was ftp-ing at 335 in tt’s. Had a reasonable season but not my best. Restraint rather than omissions are your friends with diet. Remembering to enjoy riding your bike is the other important thing. My best season of results (4th v40 in Welsh cx league, and sub 24 minutes on a road bike on our sporting tt course where 22 minutes is damn fast on a tt bike) couldn’t tell you any of my hr or power because I stopped using either monitors. Remember to enjoy it.

I've also been up to 4w/kg on 3 sessions* per week a couple of times. The first time I set it as a goal and when I achieved it I didn't feel very satisfied by it. The next time was a by-product of hitting some process goals (fuel better, more consistency) and that whole thing was more satisfying.

I sort of agree with crosshair, in that I don't find chasing FTP to be a particularly good way of getting better at riding my bike but I disagree that it's pointless as a metric. I think it's a pretty good way of setting your zones (particularly if you're doing SweetSpot training) and can be a useful marker of progress. I'm quite enjoying the TR progression levels as a way of gamifying the training.

Oh, and if you're using TrainerRoad then the predictive FTP thing is really good in my experience. I really hate FTP testing.

*either on a turbo or following outside. Would throw in the occasional social ride / ride with kids too

I think you could do it Joe (with a significant bump in the hours as has been said) but not with this - there is no race or anything I’m aiming for.

You're talking about a pretty significant increase in threshold power in your early 40s - sooner or later the training is going to feel hard. Talking about the listen to your body, then tell it to STFU and climb on the turbo sort of sessions. 4-is-a-nice-number isn't enough to drive you through this, for most people. You need sharp, personal goals - racing is the obvious source for this but really any externality that can focus your training regime.

Good luck with it if you commit - I think we're all used to seeing casuls dishing out 4 WKg-1 on zwift like it's nothing but it is a pretty serious level in reality. Some inspirational posts above show it is achievable.

I had an FTP of around 315w at around 69 kilos when I was your age… I reckon that was on three turbo sessions in the week and two rides at the weekend (normally a long road ride and a fun mountain bike ride) so a lot more than 4.5 hours - nearer 10. And I could see veins in my stomach as I was light.  But I think I was hitting around 280-290 on about six or seven hours a week later than that. I think you’ll need to do more to hit 4W/kg.

Get a good feel for your FTP, ramp test may get you in the right area but you really need to be able to hold it for 40 minutes straight before using it to set training zones.

I disagree with you @Haze. I've seen a fair few training plans from a variety of coaches but I've never seen 'do 40 mins at FTP to get a feel for your real FTP'.

Pretty sure I couldn’t hold 240w for 40 mins solid. I guess I’m aiming for a ramp test 4w/kg - so perhaps not a true measure vs someone testing with 8 min or 20 min tests. But a good measure as to the progress I’ve made vs a few years ago vs last year vs now I guess.

No race planned because I’m not that bothered (if I do a race it’ll be an enduro where overall fitness across the day and descending skill are more important) about racing per we. It’s more about being fit for mtb / being able to go further / faster in the time I have and making sure I can enjoy myself without feeling like I’m on my arse every time there’s a big climb. I feel I’ve made some progress the last couple of years overall - I’m considerably lighter than I have been (was about 84kgs at the start of 2021) and am able to press along at a better pace uphill / on the flat. Cadence is also a chunk faster on average which feels like it helps - got that burst of power for steeper / tech bits of climbing that I didn’t use to have.

@ianpv- I’m never going to get close to how slim / low body fat you must have been - I just don’t have that kind of physique / metabolism to easily get there and well……I like cake 🤷‍♂️

Perhaps I’ll see how I go on current plan and see when progress plateaus and then revisit what I can fit in / changes that could be made to get moving again?

Point being, if you can’t hold it for 40 minutes it’s likely not accurate…by all means use whatever protocol you choose to get close, but verify it…may be fairly accurate for some but as physiology varies greatly above threshold it’s worth checking the result of a ramp test against what should be an aerobic measure?

Worth a read, 20 minute test but principle is similar…anaerobic contribution…

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-physiology-of-ftp-and-new-testing-protocols/

It’s more about being fit for mtb / being able to go further / faster in the time I have and making sure I can enjoy myself without feeling like I’m on my arse every time there’s a big climb.

This is precisely the reason I started zwifting 18 months ago, having been on a 5 day riding trip to the Lakes which damn near killed me, I swore I'd get my fitness to a level where I wasn't suffering.

On a trip to Dartmoor last autumn, which coincided with me being at my fittest, I was the first up every climb and didn't once feel out of my comfort zone, so I know 3.5w/kg and above is where I need to be.

It makes riding so much more enjoyable not being absolutely ****ed when you get to the top of a climb, and not being the last one up the hill and having people waiting for you.

Sorry Joe, yes consistent testing using the same methods will help you track progress. My point is about setting accurate zones which may help with sustained improvements (amongst other things)…which ultimately we all want!

My experience mirrors ta11pau1's. No longer am I struggling on the ups and barely able to ride after a few hours. Makes it so much more enjoyable. I also like the climbs and being able to fit them properly then recover enough quickly to enjoy the downs is great. Zwift more when restricted to indoors to enjoy the limited time I get outdoors more 😜.

I sort of agree with crosshair, in that I don’t find chasing FTP to be a particularly good way of getting better at riding my bike but I disagree that it’s pointless as a metric. I think it’s a pretty good way of setting your zones

im coached by Torq and that’s exactly how they describe it. My training plans have been associated with the year at hand rather than FTP (apart from the lockdown goal I mentioned earlier) and have varied from 12hr endurance, climbing improvement, vo2max development early season and then specificity to XCM and this year XCO.   Due to a 7 month Covid impact my FTP is low at 3.6wkg as tested early Jan, but I’m now smashing 1min power and long endurance efforts, with a sweet spot/threshold build phase coming next week in advance of racing late March.  I won’t test before those races as it does no good to know what your ftp is is at that point, but I will test afterward to set my training zones for the period before  the next target racing in May.

Re FTP tests, regardless of accuracy etc you can of course measure progress with any version of it as long as you’re consistent with the method and equipment to do so.  However, the only true test of how hard you can ride for an hour is….  A 1 hour FTP test.

Just as an aside any free rides I’ve been doing have been on my Occam this year, with mudguards etc close to a 16kg bike.  I’m interested to know - from next week actually - how I go on my 11kg race bike after this testing the “train heavy, race light” theory.  I’m hoping the dry/cold spell holds up so the trails remain decent.

Nothing wrong with having goals but we’ll all plateau at different levels. Most normal youngish fittish men should probably manage 4W/kg but the bigger (and older) you are the more difficult it gets.

Thanks again all - most of this does come back to having more fun outdoors on bikes - making the most of short bits of time I can train indoors to achieve it. Got a wife who doesn’t understand the need to be out biking for hours at a time plus a young daughter and dog who all need time and attention.

Going to stick to ramp test for consistency - if I get the chance I’ll try and fit in another ad hoc turbo session where possible - even the odd 30 min session. TR suggests appropriate workouts to fit in with your plan if you want to do an additional session I think - so you’re not doing something completely out of step.

Coming back to aims I have a mate who has always just buggered off into the distance every time we’ve got to a hill ever - which I find very annoying.

Since starting turboing I found initially at places like Swinleyni could suddenly hang with him on the short sharp climbs there (except that one steep fireroad up to the hill with trails off at different angles round the top of it).

Last summer I found on longer but less steep climbs he was suddenly struggling where I could keep spinning and just accelerate away from him towards the end (fireroad at Staunton).

It’s stuff like cafell at Cwmcarn / the fireroad climb at Afan Masts etc - where he just stands up and dances away on the pedals. I don’t think I’m ever going to match him on stuff like that - but if I could at least keep him in view that would be nice. He’s consistently a stone lighter than me without trying / thinking about diet / training and he’s riding a lighter / shorter travel bike with less draggy times all the time too.

Would be interesting to go riding with him both on hardtails as his Sonder Transmitter probably isn’t too different to my Marino.

Actually - looking back I’ve not had the best week of turbo due to work etc - only fitted in one hour session. Had to do 2 x 30 min ones - and have swim 70x25min lengths in the pool on Monday and then I’m just on my 2nd weights session of the week today.

Got an hour threshold session tomorrow - not getting out on mtb this weekend as have Eva with me all day today (might take her out on the bmx to the pump track or something) and have to fit new brake pads and discs to the car tomorrow. Hoping to squeeze an evening mtb ride in on Wednesday instead.

You'll always tend to struggle climbing against lighter guys. Watts don't naturally scale with weight, which is why most top roadie/mtb pros are skinny midgets. 220W at 55kg is a very different kettle of fish to 360 at 90!

Of course that doesn't mean you can't get better.

That’s my aim - get closer than I am now and then just rinse him on the downhill. I’m quicker on everything but drops - which are my nemesis for some reason

@joebristol - looks like you've got a lot on your plate, sot it's definitely putting all the 'you need to ride more' comments in perspective. It sounds like you're making some good gains, and as long as you remember to enjoy the process you'll be crushing your pal into dust before too long. Allez!

Most normal youngish fittish men should probably manage 4W/kg

Yikes. 4W/KG is pretty exceptional for anybody isn't it?

He’s consistently a stone lighter than me

Bear in mind the average watts you need more per 1lb weight is 3.    1 stone = 14lb therefore you need to be a constant 42w higher than him just to keep up based on maths only of course.

Based on myself, if me and your friend are equal weight he's riding at 250w up a climb I could keep up - thats my sweet spot power.   But if my weight differential is the same at yours I'd need to ride at 292w which is threshold and isn't far off my 20 minute power, it'd be very hard work and likely at minute 21 I'd need to back off, and it would have a fatigue impact later in the ride.

@stevious - yeah I’m trying to fit a lot in. Just glad I’ve only got 1 child and not the 2 or 3 some mates have - that looks very hard work.

@kryton57 - I’ve literally got no idea what power my mate is putting out - I’d say on the flat spinning pit I must have more power as I can just spin off into the distance at times. But as soon as we go up he’s lighter enough that my (presumed) higher wattage isn’t enough to make up for the added weight I’m carrying.

We’re off to Risca in March I think so I’m aiming to be in the 75’s and hopefully 250w ish ftp - so will see how much closer that gets me. I suspect that weight and around 280W might be enough in most scenarios.

I have found the last few times out that for tech climbing I might have the edge for a bit on technique now - because I can generate decent power through spinning I can stay seated and get a better balance of grip. Where he is standing up and cranking he’s getting rear wheel slip.

Just on bikes he’s on a v3 SC 5010 CC with slx 12 speed / XM481 rims on 350’s / 130mm Pikes etc. I’m on an alloy 2022 Sentinel with 160mm Lyrik Ultimates / XM481 on Hope Pro4 / Xt 12 speed with X1 carbon cranks / Codes / Cascade link with Kitsuma coil shock.

So my bike is probably 4 - 5lbs heavier ish and longer travel / likely a slightly worse pedal platform which doesn’t help my cause.

Yikes. 4W/KG is pretty exceptional for anybody isn’t it?

I've often heard 4w/kg is the cycling equivalent to running a 3hr marathon. Requires some serious training unless you've got amazing genes, you'll be faster than 90/95% of all other cyclists but a pro runner/rider will blow you into the water.

As for 4w/kg Vs the general population Inc cyclists, it must be top 2% compared to everyone else, surely?

Just to clarify what I meant- I definitely agree with Zone based training. I’ve just grown to learn that for me, and my switch to longer events, I’d rather scale everything off of Lt1* rather than Lt2* as it’s actually more relevant more of the time.

Everything I say needs to be caveated against the fact I’m 95kg and there’s just no way to be good at anything other than maybe track cycling at that weight but…

Today was a perfect example of the kind of functional base type fitness I’m after. I wanted to ride with the faster (63miles at 20mph) group but the race bike only has one bottle cage. After weighing it up. I decided to have a huge breakfast and risk it on one 750ml bottle. I rode easy into town and then sat at the back for the first hour or so. Eventually I found myself at the front and I knew the big climb was due in a bit so I decided to put the hurt on the group on the flats and ride at 25mph for a bit 🤣

When we reached the gradual 5min hill, I decided to just go to the front and sag-climb it. I guessed about 350w would do and just held that to the top. And nobody came round me! Then was the fun downhills to Marlborough so I kept drilling it on the front to lift the pace.
Another climb came and went and finally was the wonderful B4000 downhill back to town. There’s one small kicker where I worried about getting dropped so I decided to attack and get a solo break going  🤣 I held 3-320w once I had a gap and climbed the kicker waiting to get swarmed! It never came ! Eventually they caught me but I sprinted back in to 4th wheel and surfed the front of the group all the way back to town.
Then it was another 6 miles home with Rich but I kept going and added on another 25 miles to get to the century.

So 5h25, 4300 calories, 18.3mph to do 100 miles at 18.3mph on one bottle!
That’s the difference prioritising your slow twitch, fat burning muscle fibres makes. Old me that used to train by FTP could have matched all of the fast work I did today no bother, in fact my 2017 power up the climb we did was 4w higher.
But I’d have been shelled after 2, maybe 3 hours.

The most important thing I’ve taken away from all the endless Z2 chatter is that your volume or lack of, is no excuse not to start from the bottom and build your base for 2 or 3 months. Yet everyone is still slightly in denial about it. By all means add progression and soon, that Z2 work will be “tempo” by the old fashioned zones.

It’s not even new really- if you wrote yourself a Joe Friel plan even 20 years ago, you’d still do Z2, progressing into tempo whether you had 6hrs a week to train or 26h.

Yes I’m still high on pre-ride endorphins so forgive my preaching but being time crunched doesn’t mean you can neglect your base 😀

*yes there’s a billion different names for each of these but loosely for me, Lt1 is the Z2 ‘talk test’ and Lt2 is kinda FTP.

Crosshair sorry if I’m preaching to the converted but you can carry more carbs but just using water in that 750 and carrying more gels to wash down with it.

I had 120g of sugar rammed in there and a bag of Haribo 😋

I’ve often heard 4w/kg is the cycling equivalent to running a 3hr marathon.

Comparing running, and especially running a marathon, to cycling is really hard. I know plenty of cyclists with better W/kg numbers than me who can't get close to my marathon time.

I know that the vast majority of cyclists can't currently do 4 for long. I meant if they trained (and if they were under about 40 and a typical cyclist size/shape). Say 280-300W for a 70-75kg bloke. It's reasonably ambitious but I reckon people who make a serious attempt will get close. The vast majority of recreational cyclists aren't trying!

OTOH the only way someone at 95kg is going to get to 4W/kg is by shedding a load of weight. Unless they are pretty exceptional. In which case they are probably already seriously in to some more suitable sport where weight isn't penalised so much.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-time-crunched-cyclist-podcast-by-cts/id1494799053?i=1000597617728

Nice podcast reflecting what I was saying. Base is important regardless of hours- don’t skip it 😀

OP, if you really want to get faster on the bike, drop the swimming and the weights, and use that time (including travel to gym/pool time presumably) for more bike sessions.

Going to stick to ramp test for consistency – if I get the chance I’ll try and fit in another ad hoc turbo session where possible – even the odd 30 min session. TR suggests appropriate workouts to fit in with your plan if you want to do an additional session I think – so you’re not doing something completely out of step.

IMO from a TR perspective I'd stick an endurance session in. You are already doing other stuff on top of the cycling and if you manage 3 harder sessions in a week now even if some are shortened you don't need anymore. I always go with Pettit on my endurance sessions from TR. If you have more time just extend it and up the difficulty to get it back to a similar wattage.

When I tried Mid volume the extra harder session broke me quickly. Also mentally trying to fit in 5 sessions a week around life is tough. I find 3 on low and add Pettit if I'm stuck indoors is much better.

Gym is in my garage so about 1 min to get out the house and going. Swimming pool is literally a 5 min walk tops. So both are pretty good for time taken to get going / back - and I think too much bike without the balance might break my lower back - I need the core strengthening to go with it all. Not aiming for really skinny roadie fitness - more punching up the climbs ready to descend hard (for me anyway - I’m probably middling on downhill skill).

Will bear that in mind on type of workout I could add in - think there are 3 or so endurance workouts that would fit the bill. Don’t want to dent my motivation with over training too quickly.

I've just overdone it by going out into the woods and doing a last loop on my own but the trails are so so so dry and grippy it's hard to resist. "Rest" week next week but Tuesday is probably the last night before it rains so will postpone rest until after that.

#can'tfollowmyownadvice
BUT riding outside in nice weather is the FUN bit.

I’ve just done Mono -2 and found it a bit easy, thinking this week I’m going to do my TR sessions Tuesday and Friday before work and hope to do an evening mtb ride Wednesday. Puts me over the weeks planned tss I imagine, but it’s a rest week the week after so can recover then.

@joebristol Started my own 'work towards 4w/kg' at the start of December. Using a base of a 8500km 2022 but have not been xc racing since 2019 (top 10 overall regional XC series). Plan is to have my first season racing in XC Vets cat for 2023.

Start of December baseline was 268ftp / 86kg - I'm 6ft 2 so there's a decent opportunity to drop some weight. Coincided with having a smart trainer for the first time so started Zwifting at start of December also, has been a godsend for Winter.

As of this week have bought my FTP up from 268w to 297w and dropped 3kgs down to 83kg, pretty pleased with that in 8 weeks. Been working mostly on building up power as the endurance base was already there, however as I get towards end of Feb am then going to focus more on weight loss, I'll be happy to eventually get to 78kg / 305w ftp (I'm realistic that the fast initial power increase is now flattening out so it'll be hard to increase another 8-10w from here) so a smidgen below 4w/kg but I think I can maintain that without too much sacrifice once I'm there.

In terms of time spent on this so far, Ive averaged about 8hrs/ week on Zwift since start of December.

@bennyboy1 thanks.

Sounds like you’re at a way higher place than me and with plenty of turbo dedication!

I think 4-5 hours total bike a week is probably the most I’m going to manage for now.

I did an hour threshold session on Sunday (although I think it was a very mild threshold session and I turned up the resistance for the last ‘over’ to finish) - then popped out on my full suss bike last night for a shake down on it after changing the bearings and rebuilding the XT mech.

Legs felt a bit sluggish to start but got going after about 30 mins. Trainer road rated it as 93 tss which seems fair.

There was some climbing in quite muddy / spinny sort of stuff which was quite hard going - plus that bike is 34lbs ish with a 2.6” Hillbilly on the front and 2.4” Kryptotal on the rear. Felt like a good session to boost a bit of fitness and it was quite fun on some steep ish off piste I haven’t ridden in a while - with a fun bit of flow to finish.

Everything has to be a balance doesn’t it. Consistency is the most important thing, stacking weeks and weeks of workouts on top of each other.
Then volume is probably the next most important. Even sticking an extra 10/15mins onto every warmup and cooldown soon gets you from 5hrs to 7.5 or 8.

After that, I prioritise polarity within the week. Went a little hard today? Keep it easy tomorrow.
Or not feeling those intervals? Back it down to Z2 and swap your hard session over.

I think swapping bikes and disciplines around is a great trick to more volume too. Last week I did Tuesday tempo on the road bike, Thursday byways on the gravel bike, Friday road recovery on the gravel bike, Saturday century on the road bike and Sunday byways on the MTB 🤣
Had it all been zzzz road miles, I’d have likely not done as much.
Likewise with the turbo- use it as sparingly as possible to avoid burnout.

This thread has been a depressing read.

I was starting from absolute rock bottom

That is where I am at right now, probably below 200w. I was 213w at some point last year. Glad to hear it is possible. Although I'm not aiming for a specific number, I just want to be fitter and enjoy riding again.

@stcolin

If you’re coming from not a lot it soon starts to come back - just a month of reasonable riding and you’ll start to feel a lot fitter in the bike. So don’t get down hearted about it - just get out pedalling and get on it!

I had a back injury in June then 5-6 weeks of chest infection and Covid in December / early Jan - yet here I am having shed 1.5kgs ish since then and with what I think will
Be an ftp bump next time I ramp test.

I can feel the progress every time I’m out on my mtb - hills are getting easier (or faster - but not both at the same time).

Yeah don’t get disheartened. This was 2yrs ago almost to the week. Coming back after a year off with two broken fibulas.

Now 170w is middle to top of Z1… 🤣

Update - Ramp test due early next week - confident I’m going to get better than the 240w on the last test - hoping for 250w but we’ll see.

Went to FOD for a quick few hours riding on the weekend just gone and pb’d 5 climbs. One I’d never fully cleared before (climb up from the base fireroad out of Cannop trail centre up to Y2K) I cleared with a little bit to spare.

I’m still around 77kgs - some days above / some below - but I’m still weight training 2-3 times a week and feeling stronger than I have in ages.

Got a 1 hour endurance ride on the turbo tomorrow and hopefully getting out on mtb for a few hours somewhere on the weekend. Ideally FOD again or maybe Cwmcarn / Risca.

If you’re coming from not a lot it soon starts to come back

I just did my first (zwift) race since August '22 and after 8 weeks of Bronchitus/Flu/Infection October to December. It was a bit of a shock although luckily a slow start and I averaged 250w/3.4wkg for 60mins. We've been focusing on short power and I'm comfortable with turns of varying lengths between 4.1wkg-5.2wkg with 3 mins being the longest so thats worked. I was 77.5 and am 74.5.kg now. I tested at 3.6wkg 1st Jan, I'd be confident I'm around 3.8wkg now which for February I'm pleased with. With racing mid-late March, then another Build until late April before the race-taper-race cycle kicks in I may make 4wkg again for 20 min ftp also - but this is hard final bit to get to!

Chin up StColin, it'll come. Consistency is the key.

Well done @joebristol 👏🏻
Great stuff.
Sometimes it’s easy to forget that flying along/up stuff faster for the same effort is the reason we do all this, although I do love a bit of data 📈📊😋 🤣

Interesting above people saying that 4kg/w is exceptional? I'm a chunk above this (it helps being light) but would still class myself as an average middle-aged Dad club rider.

I still get smashed weekly on my club rides by people who are Cat 3/4 racers, finish mid-table in a hill climb, and get my arse handed to me in zwift races/group rides.

I guess I'm trying to say that I think its probably reachable by most folks, if you ride regularly and train a bit? I'm currently ticking over at about 6-8h per week riding (which is more than usual as training for Dirty Reiver)

My biggest tip would be getting out regularly with a decent road club. I thought I was fit, until I went out with some roadies.

I guess I’m trying to say that I think its probably reachable by most folks, if you ride regularly and train a bit?

I think that massively depends upon weight 😀

Interesting above people saying that 4kg/w is exceptional? I’m a chunk above this (it helps being light) but would still class myself as an average middle-aged Dad club rider.

I still get smashed weekly on my club rides by people who are Cat 3/4 racers, finish mid-table in a hill climb, and get my arse handed to me in zwift races/group rides.

I guess I’m trying to say that I think its probably reachable by most folks, if you ride regularly and train a bit? I’m currently ticking over at about 6-8h per week riding (which is more than usual as training for Dirty Reiver)

My biggest tip would be getting out regularly with a decent road club. I thought I was fit, until I went out with some roadies.

Roadies are definitely much fitter on average than a mtb'er unless they're really in to XC racing.

6-8hrs per ain't exactly 'ticking over' now is it 🤣 that's probably 5 or 6 rides a week.

So yeah, if you're a road rider, riding with a club and trying to keep up with faster riders, and ride 4/5/6 times a week, 4w/kg probably isn't too hard.

And being light is a massive advantage. If I was a more normal build I'd have no chance of getting near 4w/kg, it's only because I'm a skinny git that I'm be able to get there.

So yeah, if you’re a road rider, riding with a club and trying to keep up with faster riders, and ride 4/5/6 times a week, 4w/kg probably isn’t too hard.

I dunno about that. I got my 3rd cat last year, won a triathlon, qualified for the gran fondo world champs (blah blah blah - insert more boring mediocre palmares here) and I was only at 3.85w/kg.

Your speed isn't always defined by your w/kg anyway. A triathlete might be ok with a lower w/kg if they are producing more actual watts. But MTBing is heavily skewed towards high w/kg rather than high watts, because there's usually lots of climbing involved.

I thought I was fit, until I went out with some roadies.

I have a mate who is much faster than me on road because he can smash out 280W for an hour constantly. However I can keep up easily on most MTB, except the longer climbs, because I have much greater repeatable peak power so when it's short sharp hills or technical sections I can rely on that.

@benman I did 55 miles with 2300ft climbing at 20.4mph the other day including the warm up. The session was 150mins straight tempo at 267watts. Not sure if that classes me as fit or not but I doubt I’ll ever reach the heady heights of 4.0w/kg.

I think because fat middle aged blokes are the biggest consumer of cycling gear, weight has been massively played down as a factor in performance but in a physics sense I’m doing more work. I’m moving maybe 1/3 more mass through space and time than a light climber.

It’s why I talk in Kj’s, kcals and watts 😀
Because when I start mentioning speed, VAM, w/kg and aerodynamics my cycling stock value plummets 📉📉🤣

Interesting above people saying that 4kg/w is exceptional? I’m a chunk above this (it helps being light) but would still class myself as an average middle-aged Dad club rider.

4W/kg for 1 hour is decent but not exceptional. You need to be starting with a 5 for it to be exceptional. And of course a 6 would make it world class.

NB 90% of your best 20 min power is (most probably) not your FTP...

NB 90% of your best 20 min power is (most probably) not your FTP…

96% here, 4% anaerobic contribution and 3.7W/Kg

4w/Kg would currently put me at 90% and 10% respectively, but I'd be blowing after 7 minutes!

NB 90% of your best 20 min power is (most probably) not your FTP…

I absolutely couldn't hold my ramp test FTP for an hour. Best I've held it for was 30-something mins up Sa Calobra

6-8hrs per ain’t exactly ‘ticking over’ now is it 🤣 that’s probably 5 or 6 rides a week.

A couple of hours zwifting and a Sunday morning club ride. Looking at the Z2 thread on here, seems my volume is pretty low in comparison to some...