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If they walk in asking for something specific, like black inners with PTFE coating, is reasonable to assume the customer knows exactly what they want for a specific reason... Telling them otherwise will only serve to annoy.Tricky one this. Having been on the other side of the counter (not bike shops) you do get people insisting they want something that you know they really don't (e.g. a windproof for standing around in the rain) but you can only go so far in making suggestions.
I've also been the customer wondering why, after telling somebody what I'm after, I'm listening to them tell me why I really want something else instead of helping me out.
I guess it's a skill telling someone who knows what they're talking about and is making an informed decision from 'that guy'.
Really not that difficult imo. If I ask for apples don't tell me I should have oranges. Tell me you have no apples, but you have some lovely oranges if I'm interested. If I say no thanks then wish me a good day and tell me that you hope to see me soon.
If I just ask for some fruit then offer me whatever you like. If I say no thanks then wish me a good day and tell me that you hope to see me soon.
If I say I need a little help (and I often do in the LBS where I don't mind paying a little more for the instant delivery) then take me through a process that identifies my needs and offers me a solution. If I say no thanks then wish me a good day and tell me that you hope to see me soon.
I know that you want my money, but this way you will get more of it in the long run...
A (slightly) off-topic question for those here who work in bike shops.
Is there a rapid distribution system for bike parts in the same way that motor dealerships have? If I've a problem with my car, I'll ring up the garage saying "x has gone wrong", their response is along the lines of "what model and year is it? I'll order the bits, bring it in tomorrow morning". This often applies to dealerships as well - they simply don't carry the stock of all the parts they need for every model - the cost and space required would be prohibitive. So you get the "motor factors" who do the intermediate stocking and distribution.
Similarly a bike shop, especially a smaller one, can't afford to have every single component in stock there are just too many.
Really not that difficult imo. If I ask for apples don't tell me I should have oranges. Tell me you have no apples, but you have some lovely oranges if I'm interested. If I say no thanks then wish me a good day and tell me that you hope to see me soon.
I would expect a good LBS to say "sorry, we don't stock apples because oranges are much better in our experience, but if you really want apples, even though they're worse and cost more, we can order some in for you".
No, is the simple answer. There are lots of distributors, from very small one-man companies importing obscure parts to big ones like Madison and Fishers handling Shimano and SRAM. Some distributors, like all the big ones, are very quick, usually getting parts to a shop next day, others are slower, and of course the distributors can run out.
There are two problems:
- Unless the order is big enough, the shop has to pay postage. Order one rear mech, and that's your profit gone - and that's assuming the customer is happy to pay RRP. So shops often bunch up orders until they have enough to get carriage paid.
- Bike parts change all the time, and there's a massive range of them - often it's hard to find parts for things more than a few years old, especially if they're obscure. Band-on MTB mech, anyone?
I only use LBS for stuff I don't have time or patience for. They are very helpful, happy for you to take in stuff off CRC and ask them to fit. Free plug for Picton Cycles. I dont expect them to stock everything there a shop not a warehouse.
Ta for that.
Hadn't considered the cost of carriage, not sure how the motor industry handles it unless there are regular deliveries to the area so it's not a big issue. Possibly when the system was set up and not every garage bought in to it then there would have been a cost passed on. Understandable to pool all the orders on say a weekly basis.
That's the problem with changing "standards" 🙄
The motor industry has far less of a problem with RRP - want to go buy car parts online? Sure, knock yourself out, you'll still likely need a garage to fit them and they won't want to fit parts they haven't supplied.
Your only choice unless you're a serious home tinkerer is to take your car to the garage and pay whatever they ask.
For the LBS, it's difficult when your customers can often get parts faster and cheaper from CRC than you can through the official distributors.
I know what you mean - when getting my HT built up I could get a Reverb cheaper on-line than the LBS could at trade! The LBS was up-front about it though, he said as much before I placed my order and that he'd fit it.
For the LBS, it's difficult when your customers can often get parts faster and cheaper from CRC than you can through the official distributors.
Could the LBS use CRC instead?
Buying one cable is hardly supporting your LBS is it ! Sounds like the sort of item a shop would be well advised to buy in as required (which is the business model many many different businesses have been using for years).
As an aside how much does such a cable cost ? I can't imagine the shop,would be making more than £2 on it and if it's a rarely bought item it makes zero sense to have it in stock
@ransos That might depend on the contracts they have with their suppliers: you want to sell our bikes then you get the component lines through us not a third party. Tied pubs work like this, the landlord has to get spirits and the like from the brewery rather than the local cash and carry.
Could the LBS use CRC instead?
Some are going that way - or only fit parts brought in by the customer. I do it sometimes for bike builds, when people want parts which I don't have a distributor account for.
Doesn't really make for a sensible, forward-thinking bike industry model, though, when the local shops have to buy stuff which is grey imported by an internet retailer.
Really, the problem isn't the price for most customers (i.e. normal people, not STWers), it's availability. Like with the car analogy, if it was possible for bike shops to quickly get any spare next day with low hassle and no postage cost, it'd help a lot. I think Madison are going that way with Shimano spares.
docgeoffyjones - Member
All I wanted was a black PTFE coated gear cable
I wouldn't even bother going to a shop for that stuff.
http://www.uberbikecomponents.com/view-product/Uberbike-MTBRoad-PTFE-Slick-Stainless-Inner-Wire-Gear
Some are going that way - or only fit parts brought in by the customer. I do it sometimes for bike builds, when people want parts which I don't have a distributor account for.Doesn't really make for a sensible, forward-thinking bike industry model, though, when the local shops have to buy stuff which is grey imported by an internet retailer.
Thanks. I agree it's not very sensible, just wondered, that's all. I could imagine Merlin, CRC et al setting up trade accounts...
Crc etc, business model is not designed for allowing trade accounts, they wouldn't make sufficient margin.
They bulk buy stuff cheap/end of line/O.E and work on selling volume at the lowest price possible as quickly as possible.
CRC own Hotlines, the trade distributor.
Sure, knock yourself out, you'll still likely need a garage to fit them and they won't want to fit parts they haven't supplied.
My old local garage used to quite frequently tell me to go and get bits from the local scrappie for them to fit in order to save us money. It's one of the reasons I was so loyal to them (when I lived near there).
CRC own Hotlines, the trade distributor.
Yes I know, but they don't sell everything that's listed on CRC at trade though them do they.
Buying one cable is hardly supporting your LBS is it! Sounds like the sort of item a shop would be well advised to buy in as required
Fair point, perhaps we're starting to learn the consequence of too much internet shopping, the dreaded scenario of 'not having an LBS nearby when you need something in a hurry' is starting to manifest itself, albeit more as a scenario of 'don't expect much selection or interesting/niche stuff in your LBS'
Pretty sure they already do Ben? The 52Y 9804 type of part number spares were all post-free when I worked there.I think Madison are going that way with Shimano spares.
One thing that I simply won't buy on-line are shoes. Bad fitting shoes are just a no-go. I do it with walking boots, running shoes, climbing shoes and biking shoes. I know Wiggle have their returns service but it's simply much, much easier and better to head to an LBS and try several models on. You can't even trust one manufacturer/model as they change so much from year to year.
'don't expect much selection or interesting/niche stuff in your LBS'
I really miss the cabinets of trick bits
Yes I know, but they don't sell everything that's listed on CRC at trade though them do they.
I was replying more to ransos than you 😉
Pretty sure they already do Ben?
May well do - I've got an OEM account with them for Alfine stuff only really, so never got into that side of it.
Workshop stuff (hangers,spokes etc) are post free from Madison.I can't think of anyone else who does post free for orders under £100 (at trade).
On small items (like a cable) postage will be more than any profit margin (at RRP).
😳I was replying more to ransos than you
it amazes me shops dont seem to keep stock of mech hangers for the bikes they sell, surely the first thing you do when you put your order in for new bike stock is to get a few hangers in that match. If you sell one order a replacement to keep stock up, until the point you arnt going to sell that type of hanger anymore.
And tell them youve been sure to get stock of that item in, as you are a good caring shop/staff, so when they break it you are first port of call. Less than£20 shop outlay over 5/6 (or more!) bike sales to help generate future business.
Even better, sell a spare hanger to the person buying the bike at time of purchase, an easy few £ profit, something i have never seen a shop do!
I actually got two spare hangers in the box with my last internet order of a bike........
-You'll need a spare hanger for your new bike
=Why what's wrong with it?
-Well nothing but they get bent or broken.
=On a brand new £2k bike?...they should'nt.
-It's a sacrificial part to save your mech.They are only £20.
=Well seeing as I've just spent £2k and you say they always break and it's 'only' £20 you should 'throw one in free' like the pedals you just gave me.
-But...well....I've already discounted the bike to match <insert online retailer> and free pedals.....................*sigh ok then.
Doesn't really make for a sensible, forward-thinking bike industry model, though, when the local shops have to buy stuff which is grey imported by an internet retailer.
What @ben and @13thfloor says. We as a society are being very short sighted by allowing the Internet model to take over, not only do we lose the shops which provide employment and business taxes we lose their expertease and the convenience of being able to pick up something we need same day. Small shops are one of my soap box issues, we've seen it with food where we now buy lower quality produce from supermarkets at the lowest possible price at companies who lay low wages vs higher quality products locally sourced from businesses run by owners.
Ben's point on cars is well made, my car costs less to service than the bike but then again the car isn't dragged though sh1t all winter and smashed into stuff through incompetence.
FWIW, out of the couple of dozen LBSs I've had to suffer over the 30 years since I started racing, there are only half a dozen, maybe less that I'd say actually had any expertise in bicycle tech. Most of them quote verbatim from advertising spiel, and that passes as expertise, unless you've got access to the same advertising material.
And of those only two have had mechanics I'd trust to do a good job. Rather than doing the job as quickly as possible to the minimum standard allowable.
That's why I've got an almost fully equipped workshop at home and plan far enough ahead so that a broken part *almost* never stops a ride.
TBH, even a snapped frame wouldn't hurt that much. I have spares.
Well seeing as I've just spent £2k and you say they always break and it's 'only' £20 you should 'throw one in free'
I got a spare mech hanger for free with my bike as standard (Specialized).
Well there is a reason to buy a Specialized then 😉
-You'll need a spare hanger for your new bike
=Why what's wrong with it?
-Well nothing but they get bent or broken.
=On a brand new £2k bike?...they should'nt.
-It's a sacrificial part to save your mech.They are only £20.
=Well seeing as I've just spent £2k and you say they always break and it's 'only' £20 you should 'throw one in free' like the pedals you just gave me.
-But...well....I've already discounted the bike to match <insert online retailer> and free pedals.....................*sigh ok then.
I think that falls under the earlier posts of staff not understanding the type of customer. Someone like that should be strung along as much as they try to string you...
'oh im afraid pedals dont come with the bike as you need them to match your special shoes, oh you dont have shoes? step this way sir... and of course should you crash we have all the key items in stock to get you back on your way quickly for only a minimal outlay.
STATO - Memberit amazes me shops dont seem to keep stock of mech hangers for the bikes they sell
Mech hangers being what they are, they'd probably need an extension to store all the variants.
Northwind, think you missed the point Sato was making "for the bikes THEY SELL" would you go into a Giant shop expecting for them to have a hanger for a Santa cruz?
I agree with Sato, a shop should back up what they sell with spares, thats why I have hangers for Cotic, Kinesis and just about to order over £100 of hangers for Lapierre!!
Santo, Rosschach has a very good point, tyring to sell them a spare when they just spent a load of moeny on a new bike, is going to be hard, and you might be seen as "stringing" customer along...
I have giveing hangers away with new bikes/frame builds, but they tend to be customer who race or do a lot of events, and tell them to put them in the kit back, even if they can't fit it themself someone should be able to help.
Northwind, think you missed the point Sato was making "for the bikes THEY SELL" would you go into a Giant shop expecting for them to have a hanger for a Santa cruz?
It's a tricky one, I agree it would seem sensible and good service to stock a hanger for every bike they sell, but when I worked for a relatively large chain of stores, maintaining (and managing!) the stock of mech hangers we did have was hard enough, they all start to look the same after sitting in a drawer for 2 years and the label falling off etc. etc. We did have a fairly large stock of maybe 4-5 brands and god knows how many actual models so perhaps we brought it upon ourselves!
One of the few components on a mountainbike that nobody has attempted to 'standardise', probably because there's no money in it 🙄
Yeah i was kind of meaning the key bike sales, not every bike on the market or even every bike they sell.
If they are sellling rockhoppers every day they should damn well have at least 1 hanger. I know some that dont...
But also if youve sold 4 Orange Five's in a month, wouldnt you consider having at least 1 hanger in stock? Those customers obviously chose the shop for a reason, so having a hanger in stock has to be worth the financial risk (<£20) to maintain/build that customers opinion of the shop. You could even email those customers to say, 'hey customer, thanks for purchasing, just so you know we've now got hangers/bearings/whatever in stock to support you in future, and can get all your other spares in xx days with notice, hope to see you soon' etc.
Obviously this doesnt work for everything, its a business decision on level of risk vs reward, but things like hangers (or common bearing kits) can be seen as consumable to a certain level, so you can pay to have these things in stock so the customer comes back to you (where they got the bike) over another shop, as they know you have the parts in stock and they know they are valued.
Yes most things can be got overnight these days, but that can sometimes leave you missing the opportunity of creating 'value' for you shop in the eyes of the customers.
As 13thfloormonk states, you do risk having too many, all the wrong type, and for big chains its probably not a concern as they will just write it off. MTB rob sounds like he is taking that financial risk to build his shop reputation; profit wise i can imagine it will probably only really break even on the hangers themselves, with lots of spares in drawers, but i can easily imagine it will result in additional spend when his customers know they can come to him to get what they want straight away, rather than order on-line and wait for delivery.
I wouldn't even bother going to a shop for that stuff.http://www.uberbikecomponents.com/view-product/Uberbike-MTBRoad-PTFE-Slick-Stainless-Inner-Wire-Gear
I read on a forum that the black ones are bad. But thank you for your help
But also if you've sold 4 Orange Five's in a month, wouldn't you consider having at least 1 hanger in stock? Those customers obviously chose the shop for a reason, so having a hanger in stock has to be worth the financial risk (<£20) to maintain/build that customers opinion of the shop.
As an example, for my 2011 Orange 5 there are 3 separate hanger options: QR, Maxle and a Direct Mount Maxle! Quickly gets out of hand. Doesn't help that the manufacturers use so many different designs of them across their ranges. I can understand slightly for F/S frames but surely a standard design across a range of HT's is possible?
Nobeerinthefridge
Something goes a wrong at Halfords you really can "take it further".
Dear oh dear
Terribly sorry if I offended your lbs sensibilities.
And don't call me dear.
Hunni.
I read on a forum that the black ones are bad. But thank you for your help
my personal experience is the opposite, found the silver ones to be worse
I run a workshop in a giant brand store and we also carry hangers for popular brands like Specialized, trek, cannondale.
We service lots of road bikes so its good business to be able to sort a customer with a tarmac, domane or super six evo, as well as someone with a TCR or propel
We get these from Madison as they distribute Wheels Manufacturing in the UK.
We can get any hanger that is in stock, next day postage free, not a problem.
Regarding cables, we carry boxes of genuine shimano inners in the workshop along with shimano sp41, SLR and m-sys outer.
We also carry retail packs of shimano gear and brake from basic stainless to coated ultegra and dura ace; the 11 speed feels much smoother with the new coated inner brake and gear cables.we carry single shimano packs of coated inner gear cable.
It's not a lot of stock but means we can get workshop jobs done quickly and satisfy walk in customer who wants to fit at home.
We'll always offer technical advice if customer is unsure, but never patronise!
Went into an LBS instead of the nearby Evans or ordering online. Wanted mudguards - they didn't have the size I wanted but offered to get them in. Guy went on Madison (I think - or maybe someone else) website and ordered them. Fired up the card reader: £29 instead of the £22 on the shelf. I bought them anyway (because that's more or less the Internet price and I cbf going online again...but that's the last thing I'll be buying from those sneaky gits.
A guy I work with went in a LBS to get some shock oil to service his forks, shop owner refused him saying he wouldn't be able to do the job himself and his only option was to bring them in so the shop could service them properly. Not 100% on the guys name but I think it rhymes with Ted Gammon........
Went into an LBS instead of the nearby Evans or ordering online. Wanted mudguards - they didn't have the size I wanted but offered to get them in. Guy went on Madison (I think - or maybe someone else) website and ordered them. Fired up the card reader: £29 instead of the £22 on the shelf. I bought them anyway (because that's more or less the Internet price and I cbf going online again...but that's the last thing I'll be buying from those sneaky gits.
so you saw the trade price and expected to pay that?
I think he meant that the sizes the shop had in stock were £22 but not the size he wanted. Of course, there could be any number of reasons for that....
On the subject of cables... It soubds like youre all relying on oldwives tales and tea leaves.
Shirley, the surface quality (e.g. profile, roughness, rust) and orientation of the individual wire filaments are more important to the sliding performance of a good inner cable than the coating? It's a hard metal sliding against a polymer surface. Any roughness will cut up the inner surface of the outer tube and effectively increase the force required to initiate movement and to pull the cable?
So, a low friction coating (e.g. PTFE) on a decent cable and decent outer should be great?
So, a low friction coating (e.g. PTFE) on a decent cable and decent outer should be great?
If the coating stays in place, if it comes off the you have problems if it starts to clog the outer and attract dirt.
So is the coating quality the problem, or the the quality of the substrate?
The problem is it's tricky to get a coating to stay on something that flexes.
All Shimano is post free from Madison, not just spares as used to be the case. So a shop could order a mech or whatever and usually get it the next day at no extra cost.
so you saw the trade price and expected to pay that?
No, as I said, I saw the retail price of £22 on the shelf and expected to pay that. When it turned out to be £29 (retail) for the same product in a different size, he didn't tell me. When asked why it was more, he was dismissive and evasive (ie he had known of the price difference). It didn't fill me with confidence so I won't be back.
So, a low friction coating (e.g. PTFE) on a decent cable and decent outer should be great?If the coating stays in place, if it comes off the you have problems if it starts to clog the outer and attract dirt.
That's the problem we find (in our LBS), although I'll happily sell a customer a PTFE-coated cable if that's what he or she wants and we've got them in stock. PTFE coating and / or Sil-Tec are fantastically slick when they're new, but the problem comes once they start wearing. Usually the coating flakes or fluffs up, and in both cases this creates extra debris between the inner cable and the lining of the outer, which means more friction, which means duff shifting.
Good quality smooth stainless steel cables, oiled when fitted, are what we generally use in the workshop unless we're asked for anything else. We find that they last longest, are most resilient to abuse and stay reliable for longer. Many of our customers are commuters and they tend to be the type of rider that puts in the most miles and expects the most from equipment they're often reluctant to pay a lot for. So we've learned lots about the reliability and durability of parts.
HTH!