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All I wanted was a black PTFE coated gear cable:
Shop 1: sucks air through teeth tells me they are really hard to get and advises me that the coating actually increases friction in their experience.
Shop 2: Tells me they only come in silver, then tells me only Sram make them in black. I point out the last ones I brought were Clarks cables he then rudely tells me "we don't stock Clarks" and "there is no call for PTFE coated cables so why would they stock them".
I get that shops cannot stock everything but don't make me feel like I am silly for asking.
Rant over
I get that you'd want PTFE coated cables, but why black?
I think you are being over sensitive.
It is IME a rare product.
Why would you feel the need to support your local bike shop...they are not a charity. If they cannot survive they will disappear like the Dinosaurs.
Funny, last time I popped into LBS for a cable they offered me the coated cable off-the-bat.
As the OP says, you don't expect them to stock everything but they can choose how to deal with that.
I bet they're reeling at the loss of a cable sale!
Cynic-al +1. I've never heard of anyone specifying the colour of their cable inners! Coated... Fine. Black only... Bit weird.
I get it, it's the little attention to detail things that can make you happy. I would say though that ime shop 1 is right, the coating comes off and can clog up the inners.
A lot of people reckon that ptfe cables gum up the outers over time, supposedly the coating comes off. Never had that myself but not convinced they're any better than cheap stainless in decent outer.
Yes, I've never found the coated ones to be any better, and it can flake off.
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That's what you get for your philanthropy.
If they cannot survive they will disappear like the Dinosaurs.
What? & Evolve into birds, can't see that happening myself.
tells me they are really hard to get and advises me that the coating actually increases friction in their experience.
As an LBS mechanic, I'd agree.
I use plain stainless steel in Shimano SP41 outer. There's nothing any better.
"we don't stock Clarks"
You should be glad of that, they obviously know a half decent cable....
and "there is no call for PTFE coated cables so why would they stock them".
I've never been asked for one either, and we don't stock them.
I know to mock is to STW, but OP's got a point - before CRC and the like bike shops stocked all manner of odd little bits and bobs in many various flavours.
Now there's no market for it, people buy online - if I went to my LBS for a cable, it would be pointless looking on the shelves for one, I'd have to ask at the service desk, and accept the ones they use on customer bikes - they might have a fancy set of XTR cables laying about, but mostly you're going to be have one out of the massive box of cables on their desk.
I don't think they stock many bigger parts either, sure if you go in with a knackered crank or snapped brake lever they'll fix it, but they'll order the parts in as/when they need them - there's not point have 20 sets of XT brakes on the shelf, if someone wants to buy a set to take home to fit, they'll buy them online cheaper than they can sell them for.
Plenty of LBSs (mine included) use decent cables, just in workshop packaging not retail packaging. As they probably use 100 times as many in the workshop that makes sense though.
You're right they're not on the shelf, but I'm not convinced they ever were!
In proper bike shops, they're never on the shelf because there's no shelf. You approach the counter where a man in an apron is wiping his hands with an oily rag, explain your requirements, and he finds the part you need* from one of the boxes behind him or under the counter.
At least that's what it's like in my shop 😉
*Note, the part you need might or might not be the part you asked for.
lol
In proper bike shops, they're never on the shelf because there's no shelf. You approach the counter where a man in an apron is wiping his hands with an oily rag, explain your requirements, and he finds the part you need* from one of the boxes behind him or under the counter.
That was me 35 yrs ago, absolutely nothing out front, the local toe rags would just nick everything. we must have had 100+ boxes with stuff in them. It probably took newbies a year or two to learn where everything was.
I do not understand how a non stick compound can become sticky and clog up cables. That means that spraying WD40 or GT85 on them is also a bad idea?
I want a black one because I like black ones I think they look better than silver I would of said this if either of them had not BSd me.
My point is handle the request better don't make me feel silly, then I would come in again and buy more stuff.
@the-muffin-man: I to doubt they are reeling at the loss of a cable sale but why do you think they sell cheap spares like cables in the first place?
I dont think Shimano do black PTFE coated cables. XTR were the last ones I found in black. The current PTFE coated ones are clear.
Is PTFE vegan? That's the real issue!1
In proper bike shops, they're never on the shelf because there's no shelf. You approach the counter where a man in an apron is wiping his hands with an oily rag, explain your requirements, and he finds the part you need* from one of the boxes behind him or under the counter.
Brings to mind Bucks in Ipswich bitd. Maybe two bikes on display in the windows and a shop wide, glass fronted counter two pace into the building. A proper bike shop.
Got told by my LBS that they no longer did gear cable off the reel and would only sell me an Dura Ace cable set for £25. Also wouldn't lend me a spoke wrench for 5 mins so I could fit the spokes I'd just bought as my front wheel was dangerous. Ended up walking home. I don't go in there so much now.
I've had a response similar to that from an electrical supplier making me feel very small. I left immediately and have never bought anything from them again.
The customer is always right (except when they're wrong) but its not good business to ridicule people over something so trivial.
I do not understand how a non stick compound can become sticky and clog up cables. That means that spraying WD40 or GT85 on them is also a bad idea?
When the non stick stuff deteriorates, it sticks.
Still not getting why you are specifying a colour on an item you can't see once fitted...
My local LBS didn't stock the white outer cable I was after, but did phone another local bike shop to see if they did. The other shop did and sold it by the foot.
[i]I've never heard of anyone specifying the colour of their cable inners! [/i]
I guess if you are OCD and have non-full outer cable runs?
Brings to mind Bucks in Ipswich bitd. Maybe two bikes on display in the windows and a shop wide, glass fronted counter two pace into the building. A proper bike shop.
Seconded! a trip to see Graham as a kid with my folks was like going to the sweet shop. A proper treat and proper shop.
I tried to order a new frame from my lbs. The importers, who they have an account with, said no, because they're not a dealer.
I understand that they'd rather I used one of there local dealers, but, I have either none, or bad experiences with those shops.
So I might as well order online and save a hundred quid.
You try to help a good local shop, but some people make it hard work.
That means that spraying WD40 or GT85 on them is also a bad idea?
Yes. Because neither of those products are the correct lube to use on cables. Used as a cleaner? Maybe. Lubrication? No.
HTH?
I want a black one because I like black ones
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Didn't Shimano go from PTFE to polymer 'cos it was betterer?
I use plain stainless steel in Shimano SP41 outer. There's nothing any better.
How do you know there is nothing any better? Or do you just always fit this combination because you have always fitted this combination?
He works in a bike shop....it must be true.
Yes, lbs workers opinions on these matters aren't relevant 🙄
CR still sell XTR gear cable sets but are not as good as the earlier ones, although the cables are black coated. They originals were better than anything , even with water proof boots on the cable ends. Stainless cables don't rust, but they are quite soft compared to coated steel cables and can kink easier.
PFTE is a polymerDidn't Shimano go from PTFE to polymer 'cos it was betterer?
It's only ours that are irrelevant Al....and we work in lbs's too.
How do you know there is nothing any better? Or do you just always fit this combination because you have always fitted this combination?
OK, I'll expand on that.
I've tried lots, (but not all, granted) and lots of different cables - From cheap right through to the £42 Jagwire Pro* kit I've got on my current commuter bike.
Outers - I've used Shimano of varying qualities, Jagwire of varying qualities, SRAM, Bontrager, Clarks....
Inners - Bontrager, Jagwire (Coated, uncoated) Clarks (Stainless and Galvanised) Shimano (Coated, uncoated) and SRAM
*I bought the Jagwire kit for the compassionless brake cables on my CdF (It made no difference to the Shimano SLR it replaced) I did some faffing and swapping with bikes and needed new gear cables on it when I rebuilt it, so I fitted the gear cables too as that was all the inners I had at the time, and they look posh, so why not?
The shipping is NOT as good as the SP41 it replaced on a direct comparison with only the cables changed. I won't waste money on Jagwire kits again.
Inners: I don't think it makes a huge difference TBH. The better ones last longer IME but any good quality SS inner is fine. That said, you have to watch the LENGTH they come in! Bontrager for instance are a bit shorter and might not be long enough for bar end shifters or odd cable routing like, say, a TT bike.
The best inners are the ones Shimano supply with their mid range shifters IME, but the difference is negligible so I just fit any good SS inner on my own bikes.
Outers? I put my money where my mouth is! Under my workbench right now, worth £200 at RRP....
[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5820/22010856468_453f246a8c_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5820/22010856468_453f246a8c_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/zx2oMj ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/ ]Peter Atkin[/url], on Flickr
Is that a good enough answer? 🙂
Transfil Black Snake cable sets are still available from various outlets.........
Good cableset in my experience (and black)
double post - can't even whinge properly
As a mild sidetrack, similar story of LBS letting me down today...
Old road bike needs new BB - will cost me more to buy through LBS, but will save me buying specific tools for a rare job.
Dropped bike off, new BB please, whilst there can you chuck on new gear inner and outers and re-index (I couldn't be arsed). Explained that I use Squirt dry lube, I know chain is worn etc, mechanic I spoke with was fine with this.
Phone call to me saying brake cables and outers need replacing, and new bar tape - I decline, and say I want what I asked for. Repeat of phone call an hour or two later, same response - just do what we agreed on workshop ticket.
Pick bike up - £25 safety check, plus cost of new brake cable and pads, and happy (but worn) dry lubed chain covered in oil. 😐
On explaining I have the brake spares (and bartape) at home waiting to go on, and I refused the £25 random mark up; I paid for the BB, and gear cables and brake pads. They are now (hopefully) cleaning all the $h!t off the chain/cassette, so I can re-lube it...
I'm surprised they didn't try to tell me the latex tubes were punctured and need replacing! But thanks for the crappy valve cap (justifies the £25 I guess).
run full length outers and change the inner cable reasonable frequently. who cares what the cable looks like?
Everyone's experiences are different.
My experience with the Shimano XTR coated black inner wires is that they fracture and break where they travel round a bend or near where they are clamped, far more readily than an ordinary inner wire does, so I don't use them anymore....... and for that reason I wouldn't stock them in a shop.
Every cloud etc....
Brings to mind Bucks in Ipswich bitd
Literally my local bike shop as in 3 minutes walk. Everything in glass fronted drawers in a unit behind the counter. Now a fast food joint. 🙁
scaredypants - Member
[i] Didn't Shimano go from PTFE to polymer 'cos it was betterer? [/i]
PFTE is a polymer
Agreed - but not all polymer is PTFE and I thought they'd stajrted using a non-PTFE polymer and changed the name accordingly
I bought the Jagwire kit for the compassionless brake cables
Yeah, that's all I would buy them for ;O)
In my experience Sram coated inners tend to flake their black coating off. Shimano black coating wears, never seen it flake.
On sti's that rely on a non standard inner cable, no inner will work as well as a Shimano Sil - Tec. They can make the world of difference, sometimes even with sp40/41 end caps and outer casing it's still not possible to get super slick shifting. I've spent money years ago on road gear cable kits recommended by Shimano for my Ultegra's and it still wasn't right. Moved onto Sil-Tec's, problem solved. The road kits (RRP around 34 quid) weren't the exact replacement for the Ultegra's.. I think this was half the battle.
I've been offered Jagwire cables and hydro hose kits free of charge from a Jagwire honcho to try and get my onto them not long after fitting an XTR cable kit on my bike, which was working sweet as a nut 6 months into it's life but I had to refuse as the cable's were working perfectly. I had no reason to remove something for no reason, or giving myself extra work. Grabbing freebies just for the hell of it wasn't going to happen either.
Another thing with Jagwire, they're fitted to so many bikes from new. Straight out the box it's common to find the casing split due to how brittle it is compared to Shimano SP. This can cause extra work for mechanics. Bit of a pain for the workshop and again, more warranty work. You will never find SP casing spit due to how brittle it is out the box.
Like Peter says, beware of some of the cheaper brands as they often come in something like 1900 or 2000mm lengths which can sometimes be a bit short for some routing. Yet another workshop mare when your boss is paying you to fit internal cables through a frame.. only to find it won't reach the flippin mech once you get there.
Is that a good enough answer?
what does it have to do with you being an LBS mechanic. I have used many different sets of cables and I once did a weeks work experience in a bike shop. Black PTFE coated are the best. FACT
Best for?
[quote=docgeoffyjones ]I once did a weeks work experience in a bike shop.That's it then. I bow before your experience.
No longer use lb shops to be honest. Unless it's a warranty thing.
Got a bit fed up with the poor service and poor work done.
Ironically the only "lbs" I use occasionally is Halfords.
Why? Well, so far the few jobs they've done have been fine. Fitting headset cups/ cutting steerer tube etc.
Biggest reason is this however. If something goes wrong there is always a manager at the store to complain to. The manager will also be aware that he has his own area/regional manager above him etc etc.
Something goes a wrong at Halfords you really can "take it further".
Something goes wrong at your true "lbs" and the shop owner says "tough".... What can you do? Small claims court at best I suppose.
So mad as it seems, Halfords is my lbs for the jobs I don't want to do/ can't do/ not got the tools for, stuff. Even the occasional spare if even crc or Amazon prime isn't fast enough.
what does it have to do with you being an LBS mechanic
No pleasing you is there? Wrong time of the month is it? 😛
In short, how do you think I get to try so many brands of cable? I've worked in 3 shops, all used different brands..... Get it now? 🙂
Martinxyz - I'd not noticed my spelling mistake there, oops! 🙂
Black inner shows up better in transparent outer 😉
I remember when everyone on here used to ride singlespeeds.
FWIW I either use shimano or Jagwire. Shimano if I just want black outer, Jagwire if I want a colour.
I have never noticed a difference beyond new stuff works beetter than worn out stuff.
There is a certain breed of LBS worker who seems to delight in patronising customers and telling them what they really want in a condescending way, often talking bollocks in the process. Seen it quite a few times, even in well-regarded bike shops.
There is a certain breed of LBS worker who seems to delight in patronising customers and telling them what they really want in a condescending way, often talking bollocks in the process.
Thank Allah it's not like that around here.
Do people post about how Sainsbury's/Tesco don't stock their favoured type of apple/yoghurt?
I once went into my LBS to ask if they had a tandem rear mech cable for my Big Dummy as the existing cable had just snapped. They told me they did not stock tandem gear cables, as there was very little demand for them.
As this was intuitively true, I went home and ordered several from a mail-order place. They only had black ones, funnily enough. I don't think the coating broke down, but I'm not saying it never happens.
🙂
No pleasing you is there? Wrong time of the month is it?
In short, how do you think I get to try so many brands of cable? I've worked in 3 shops, all used different brands..... Get it now?
Fitting lots of cables to other people’s bikes is not testing something. Fair play you have fitted lots of different ones to your bike, I have fitted lots to my bikes too. The point I am making is your opinion is irrelevant of you being a bike shop mechanic.
My original post had little to do with a technical specification more about how it upsets me when people who work in bike shops treat people who don't work in bike shops, or customers as they are known, like they know nothing and are more interested in showing off there own knowledge......I just wish one of this sort of LBS mechanics would post of this thread to help make my point........
only if they make me feel bad for asking by trying to ram there knowledge of apples down my throat.Do people post about how Sainsbury's/Tesco don't stock their favoured type of apple/yoghurt?
I just wish one of this sort of LBS mechanics would post of this thread to help make my point........
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There is a certain breed of LBS worker who seems to delight in patronising customers and telling them what they really want in a condescending way, often talking bollocks in the process. Seen it quite a few times, even in well-regarded bike shops.
Chapeau. Remember that Surly ode to bike mechanic which basically flipped the typical customer off?
LBS staff/mechanics just sell what they're told to, that is their job after all.
I'd consider the opinion of the owner of an independent bike shop or business, you know - the one who actually makes the decisions but a hired spanner monkey, naaah - just hands and feet no matter what they might like to think 😆
Something goes a wrong at Halfords you really can "take it further".
Dear oh dear.
My original post had little to do with a technical specification more about how it upsets me when people who work in bike shops treat people who don't work in bike shops, or customers as they are known, like they know nothing and are more interested in showing off there own knowledge.....
You mean "their".
I just wish one of this sort of LBS mechanics would post of this thread to help make my point........
Oops.
Fair enough OP. Would annoy me too.
Thank Allah it's not like that around here.
Do people post about how Sainsbury's/Tesco don't stock their favoured type of apple/yoghurt?
They might post if they were told that the flavour didn't exist, and anyway isn't tasty, and they should enjoy x flavour more instead!
Do people post about how Sainsbury's/Tesco don't stock their favoured type of apple/yoghurt?
No. But if that person walked into a specialist yoghurt shop and was told they didn't and then the specialist yoghurt shop, being a specialist, did bugger all to help, and then he was made to feel crap for even asking - they might.
There is a certain breed of LBS worker who seems to delight in patronising customers and telling them what they really want in a condescending way
This. Lots of it being evidenced on this thread too.
The customer has asked for black cables. He's gone to a bike shop to get or source black cables. He's gone away thinking his local bike shop won't help him and I guess will go online. Cue one unhappy customer, one immediate lost sale for the bike shop and no doubt many future sales they could have had had they established the relationship with him and tried to help him out.
What if he'd asked for white-wall tiles? Purple anodised spokes? Maybe it's the look he's going for on the bike
"I'd like some white walled tyres please"
"ooh you don't want those"
"I do actually"
"No, you want these ones. I've fitted them to a million different things and worked in lots of places and have put lots of tyres on things. You want these
"I don't. I want white walled tyres"
Actually - typing that back, it reminds me of conversations I've had in Kwik Fit.
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Di2 anyone? 🙄
Okay, kidding aside, there's always a fine line between patronising someone and honestly helping them with the benefit of experience. Would you really want a LBS that just took your money and didn't tell you if you were buying the wrong thing?
Depends if by "wrong" you mean completely unsuitable for what they need or in your opinion not the best choice but would do the job.
Without demeaning the trade too much, it is only bicycles after all - quite the opposiste of rocket science
I want a black one because I like black ones I think they look better than silver
LBSbod: We don't have them in stock. Would you like me to see where I can get them?
Doc: Yeah that'd be great cheers
LBSbod: Ok, we can get them in a couple of days. Anything else you want?
Doc: ooh yeah. I need some white wall tyres and purple anodised nipples.
LBSbod: I haven't got those either but I can put them on the same order. Do you want them fitting?
Doc: Yeah great!
LBSbod: Great.
Exactly, if a customer walks in and just asks for brake cables, that would warrant a bit of advice and guidence.. If they walk in asking for something specific, like black inners with PTFE coating, is reasonable to assume the customer knows exactly what they want for a specific reason... Telling them otherwise will only serve to annoy.
Without demeaning the trade too much, it is only bicycles after all - quite the opposiste of rocket science
No, not offended in the slightest. <sniff>
Bicycles are interesting - yes, they are superficially simple compared to, say, a car (or a space rocket), but the devil is in the detail. Fixing a car is easy - you find the part that doesn't work using a flowchart (or by plugging in a computer), you replace that part. You don't debate the differences between steel brake tubes, alloy brake tubes, teflon-lined brake tubes etc in great detail. Because most of the time your choice is the standard part, or maybe a copy.
From the sound of the above most arent regular customers. I have a good relationship with my LBS. he knows me and understands what and when it's needed. It's a two way street. I also buy from the Internet. The key is being a regular customer. I'm sure it benfits us both
Okay, kidding aside, there's always a fine line between patronising someone and honestly helping them with the benefit of experience. Would you really want a LBS that just took your money and didn't tell you if you were buying the wrong thing?
Well, it partly depends how it's done. I've genuinely seen LBS workers looking/sounding gleeful at the opportunity to show off the fact that they are better informed than the customer. I've also seen said LBS workers come out with stuff I know for a fact to be incorrect. I've seen it more than once (and I don't go in LBS that often).
If they walk in asking for something specific, like black inners with PTFE coating, is reasonable to assume the customer knows exactly what they want for a specific reason...
Maybe that specific reason is that some random person on an internet forum said black cables make you go faster or something 😉
No, not offended in the slightest. <sniff>
I hope not Ben - For what it's worth, your stuff at Kinetics is leaps and bounds beyond the High Street type LBS and I can see how it warrants serious customer discussion.
A bit different to someone who "knows their onions" waffling on about how many metres of gear cable they've fitted in their career 😉
While the reasoning may be off, and the expectation that the LBS hold stock of *everything* is a little off, being made to feel small is just downright rude.
I am giving up on two of my three local LBS's.
Once charges above RRP or only RRP on everything. I wanted a pair of grips, any MTB grips - the only ones in were Peaty lock ons, at £29.99 😯 I needed some disc brake pads, they had, but £21. Cables, £12. Eldest OAb lost his multitool, and was off for a ride the next morning. Only one with chain tool on were £28+ upwards. That is checking and using two bike shops I pass on the way to work - there is one in town that is better value, but did not have stock of gear cable or (any) mtb stem last I tried...
I agree it is difficult, and indeed I live in a wealthy part of the place, so the local LBS cater for that market. We also have an industry that is for ever upping the cost of every last item as 'faster' and 'better'.
At least they do not make me feel small or daft mind - they are very helpful and welcoming. I just struggle with the costs that are soooo high.
Phone call to me saying brake cables and outers need replacing, and new bar tape - I decline, and say I want what I asked for. Repeat of phone call an hour or two later, same response - just do what we agreed on workshop ticket.
This sounds familiar. In my case I hadn't ensured what I asked for had actually been written down though- lesson learned there. I just assumed that telling the guy I didn't want the brake pads changed because I had some new ones waiting at home meant that they wouldn't put new ones on, which they did anyway. I had to insist on few-month-old cables on a road bike that only really goes out in the dry not being changed though.
Given the overall cost of the rest of the work, which was reasonable, it was hard to get too worked up about the extra cost of a set of brake pads but I did leave the shop reminding myself to mimimise the work I get done in bike shops.
Bicycles are interesting - yes, they are superficially simple compared to, say, a car (or a space rocket), but the devil is in the detail. Fixing a car is easy - you find the part that doesn't work using a flowchart (or by plugging in a computer), you replace that part. You don't debate the differences between steel brake tubes, alloy brake tubes, teflon-lined brake tubes etc in great detail. Because most of the time your choice is the standard part, or maybe a copy.
Indeed, the difference between wanting a faster bike and a faster car is one has to get more efficient through all sorts of niggly details, the other has to have a large engine fitted to a small chassis/body. Bikes do suit people who are fundamentally obsessive far better.
(Back on the original topic IME XTR/Dura-Ace cables are the best - although the PTFE doesn't make a massive difference it has never gummed up and they do last slightly longer than mid range ones. That said I had some fully sealed PTFE ones a long while back and they lasted about 3 wet rides before gumming up...)
If they walk in asking for something specific, like black inners with PTFE coating, is reasonable to assume the customer knows exactly what they want for a specific reason... Telling them otherwise will only serve to annoy.
Tricky one this. Having been on the other side of the counter (not bike shops) you do get people insisting they want something that you know they really don't (e.g. a windproof for standing around in the rain) but you can only go so far in making suggestions.
I've also been the customer wondering why, after telling somebody what I'm after, I'm listening to them tell me why I really want something else instead of helping me out.
I guess it's a skill telling someone who knows what they're talking about and is making an informed decision from 'that guy'.