[Closed] 'Trek trains expert (female) technicians': discuss chaps and chapesses!

Facebook differs from Twitter in that with more than 140 characters to play with you can really go to town on being a ringpiece.

One wonders what other under-represented demographic the Trek guys will offer courses for next.

Fiver on ten posts before some muppet with similar views turns up on this thread...

Well it seems a little odd in that it can't be being run as the women would be intimidated in training in a mixed environment given that they will already be very experienced and have more than held their own in a male dominated environment. Would it not be better to look at starting with women without experience but an interest in learning?

I find it's a more American thing to mouth off like that in response to a facebook post. You see it on every post STW makes about electric bikes- you get boltonjohn off here and then thirty or forty Americans saying they'll shoot you if you go near their trails on one. Meanwhile in Britain we accept it and move on.

It's a funny thing, I'm married to an American and she's not like that but the more right wing members of her family are.

Obviously, female targeted technician courses are a good thing. The only person that gives top notch customer service in my LBS is a woman.

RACIST!

CFH- I was thinking that as I typed it 😳

The only person that gives top notch customer service in my LBS is a woman.

[img] [/img]

Facebook not loading for me, probably cos I don't have an account.

And I agonized about how to put that too without it sounding rotten 😳

Couldn't resist, sorry 🙂

Surely after three years wrenching in an integrated workplace women would no longer require segregated training?

Could see the point if this had been targeted at, say unemployed women, mothers returning to the workplace or similar

I'm at a loss to see why trek are doing this, but if it's extra training places being created and suitably qualified men aren't being denied opportunities, I don't see that it really matters.

Maybe there's a perceived demand for it and Trek are responding to that? Do blokes really need to have some sort of philosophical discussion about it in order to justify a reaction whose essence is hard to see as anything more than simply feeling hurt by women doing stuff?

Do blokes really need to have some sort of philosophical discussion about it in order to justify a reaction whose essence is hard to see as anything more than simply feeling hurt by women doing stuff?

I think you'll find it's a woman who kicked this discussion off. 🙂

Would any of you chaps feel uncomfortable on a course with chapesses?

a reaction whose essence is hard to see as anything more than simply feeling hurt by women doing stuff?

I think most on here myself included think it's great that women do stuff, feeling hurt WTF ????. But it just feels odd in this day and age that there's a women only advanced bicycle technicians course.

I don't know nearly enough about Trek's recruitment, its policies, the diversity of its workforce or the demand/need for more women in this area to have an opinion.

However, as a white heterosexual male I think it's great that society became equal when we gave them the vote a century ago. I am rightly threatened by any such scheme which may expose or diminish my privileged position in society. Therefore this is as bad as Hitler. Worse, even.

I did my Velotech course with a couple of lasses. I can't say it made any difference.

[quote=Bez ]Maybe there's a perceived demand for it and Trek are responding to that? Do blokes really need to have some sort of philosophical discussion about it in order to justify a reaction whose essence is hard to see as anything more than simply feeling hurt by women doing stuff?
You managed all of that without using the word "knuckledragger". Well done you.

I think you'll find it's a [b]girl[/b] who kicked this discussion off

😉

Would any of you chaps feel uncomfortable on a course with chapesses?

God no, it would be great. Women are much more fun than blokes.

I guess the idea is to have women only training as they are less likely to feel patronised by sneering / letching males?
Possibly they may feel more comfortable amongst fellow ladies, because men in a workshop type environment can be quite condescending to females?

To be honest, I'm rather disappointed that Trek felt this was necessary. My experience from participating in, say, Forum rides, has been that barriers don't exist in mountain biking and it's a very welcoming activity to all.

Anyone who was at the pedalling ideas discussion a couple of months ago will know it's the disabled and LGBT communities that will be targeted next...

Possibly they may feel more comfortable amongst fellow ladies, because men in a workshop type environment can be quite condescending to females?

But won't they all be of a similar ability which would blow that thought out of the window?

pedalling ideas discussion

Que?

que?

http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/pedalling-ideas-new-cycling-event-in-leeds/

One of the speakers was saying how the two groups were grossly underrepresented in the industry, based on a what comes up when you google images of 'road cycling' 'mountain biking' (pro photos, mainly featuring men) 'lgbt cycling' and 'disability cycling' (amateur pics)

Good god, whatever next, letting women drive cars?!

If they are working at a good level in an obviously male dominated environment I can't see the need for segregated training courses.

Quite the opposite in fact a mixed gender group often has a better dynamic as the presence of opposite sex often temper the more testosterone / oestrogen fueled behaviours (unless it's a bunch of under sexed teenagers), that's certainly the case with our mixed group rides.

Well it seems a little odd in that it can't be being run as the women would be intimidated in training in a mixed environment given that they will already be very experienced and have more than held their own in a male dominated environment. Would it not be better to look at starting with women without experience but an interest in learning?

this is what I'd have thought. In fact I'd be quite sure there's a demand for that!

Either way, it doesn't really matter - if the course does well then it proves that there's a demand for it, and fair play to Trek for spotting that and doing something about it. If there is no demand then they'll stop the course and the special snowflakes of facebook can sleep easy once again.

I can see why a female only course would appeal to some women, mainly because some men are dicks.
Some of the Facebook posts kinda prove this.

To be honest, I'm rather disappointed that Trek felt this was necessary. My experience from participating in, say, Forum rides, has been that barriers don't exist in mountain biking and it's a very welcoming activity to all.

I think it's different in America. My ex gf now lives in the US and is constantly amazed at the attitude of male cyclists towards her over there, eg one example, she recently bought a new fairly high end cross bike and the salesman said he would change the SPDs to flats as they are "very difficult to get in and out of" , despite knowing she is a highly experienced cyclist and assuring him she's used them for many years. It's been a fairly constant stream along these lines, they are generally amazed she can ride as well as and better than most of them and has a clue what she is talking about, but they still manage to be massively condescending about it. She is quite looking forward to returning to the UK!

I think you'll find it's a woman who kicked this discussion off.

Touché 😉 (although to be fair the Facebook responses were from men, so it rather depends what you define as the kick off) and in any case walking on about the discussion probably renders me hoist by some sort of meta-petard anyway.

I just tend to think, it's a thing for women, does anyone need to bother saying much about it at all? What needs to be discussed is the misogynistic responses to it, which is exactly what the original post was doing.

I just tend to think, it's a thing for women, does anyone need to bother saying much about it at all? What needs to be discussed is the misogynistic responses to it, which is exactly what the original post was doing.

exactly, and this is why we now have brexit and trump 🙁

walking -> waffling, doh

My experience from participating in, say, Forum rides, has been that barriers don't exist in mountain biking and it's a very welcoming activity to all.

As a sport/leisure activity - might be different as employment...? Unfortunately, the bike shops I worked in BITD wouldn't have been that friendly to a female employee. It was shameful really.

I'm struggling to see how Treks move is harmful - not sure how it can hurt women in the industry or men. Seems a bit of a non-issue to me.

I'm at a loss to see why trek are doing thi

They are of the opinion it wi sell them more bikes.

I'm struggling to see how Treks move is harmful - not sure how it can hurt women in the industry or men. Seems a bit if a non-issue time.

It could be seen as harmful to some (perpetuating the idea that women need special treatment or that the 'industry' has a problem with hostility to women, as per your example). It should be that case that TREK make sure their courses are not places where they need to hold separate classes to resolves those issues, and indeed that's the case, they are promoting this course to try and entice women to attend who may normally not. Why would they not? perhaps because those women grew up where they did not always receive or feel they received equal or non-sexist treatment.

Of course im sure majority of women would know any mixed gender courses like this (ran by a reputable company) would not be places where they should be uncomfortable, but you cant change how people unconsciously feel. Im sure I would be treated fairly and equally in a training course where women are traditionally the primary employee, but id still feel apprehensive if it was in a subject I wasn't particularly confident going into it.

So a private company offers training to women in a female only environment so they know there's no chance of blokes being dicks. Then a bunch of blokes respond by being dicks. Well done chaps, great way of proving a point.

Doesn't the article say it [i][b]promoted[/b][/i] the course more to women, not that the course was open [b][i]only[/b][/i] for women. Prepared to be wrong.

So a private company offers training to women in a female only environment so they know there's no chance of blokes being dicks. Then a bunch of blokes respond by being dicks. Well done chaps, great way of proving a point.

😆

The internet would be a wonderful thing if it wasn't for all the people on it.

So a private company offers training to women in a female only environment so they know there's no chance of blokes being dicks.

Hence, why I think it is a good idea.

As always, it's white middle class men who are the ones getting offended about such things (and looking on the FB post, it's a bunch of Trump and God loving, gun toting morons....).

I helped run a workshop of around 15 mechanics for a while. We had some great, super keen women mechanics too. Unfortunately, most bike shops seem to have a very 'bro' mentality which can be off-putting. It also never ceased to surprise me how sexist and ignorant customers could be. Some just wouldn't even believe that the woman offering to help them was a competent mechanic and would ask to speak to someone else! So, if Trek want to market one course towards women (but not be 'women only' if people actually read the bloody information provided on the FB page, not that I'd care if it was women only), then all power to them.

As already said, seems a bit odd given they've most likely already proved they can hold their own in a mixed sex environment.'

Having only had female bosses and female teams in the last 10 years I still struggle to appreciate the whole 'sexism at work ' thing. Can't beleive it still exists in this day and age (although I'm sure it does!)

So, if Trek want to market one course towards women (but not be 'women only' if people actually read the bloody information provided on the FB page, not that I'd care if it was women only), then all power to them.

Very much this

I used to run a women only workshop night at one of the shops I used to work for
I always found that the class would start right back at the very beginning with things like how do I get my back wheel in and out, how do I do a puncture etc
This would never be the case with men in the room the women would just keep quiet ,obviously you had women in the room that had come to learn more advanced stuff but they wouldn't mind doing that stuff again
The reason I started it was because of endless amounts of women who would just assume they wouldn't be able to fix it themselves even though they Manage to be things like doctors and what have yer
Why do they assume this ?

So, if Trek want to market one course towards women (but not be 'women only' if people actually read the bloody information provided on the FB page, not that I'd care if it was women only), then all power to them.

Exactly!

total non story, trek offer training to women in a male dominated industry so a bunch of male yanks try to score equality points by saying its sexist somehow. more PC BOLLOCKS

However, as a white heterosexual male I think it's great that society became equal when we gave them the vote a century ago. I am rightly threatened by any such scheme which may expose or diminish my privileged position in society. Therefore this is as bad as Hitler. Worse, even.

Nailed it 😉

If Trek have decided to run them and there are more women doing the courses now then before there was a need for it, bit hard for some people to get but the western world is still 100% white male dominated.

As a bloke I have no issues what so ever with this.

so a bunch of male yanks try to score equality points by saying its sexist somehow. more PC BOLLOCKS

So a private company offers training to women in a female only environment so they know there's no chance of blokes being dicks. Then a bunch of blokes respond by being dicks. Well done chaps, great way of proving a point.

Agreed

Cynical brain says Trek were probably well aware that some idiots would get in a strop about it on FB, thus ensuring it would get wider reporting in the cycling media than it might otherwise have got. Trek then get to score more points as a women-friendly brand - marketing win!

I'm not a huge fan of Trek, having been shafted by the UK operation over a frame warranty claim.

But while I'm unlikely to buy a new Trek again, they do deserve credit for trying to push the cycling advocacy agenda in the US - realising that the industry needs to help grow its market.

So I'm inclined to think they're probably doing this for the right reasons.

Talia Kemp needs to go on a H&S course next, that hair is just waiting to get caught in something spinny and causing an accident

I'm a man.

How can I possibly speak for what women want?

If a company offer a product and women then buy it (whether that's bikes, training or whatever) then that's a good thing, imo - there was a demand for that product.

I do think that cycling is dominated by white men in this country and if initiatives like this help women to join either as workers in the industry or just as individuals who go out and enjoy riding a bike then what's not to like?

All this bollocks about 'it's discriminating against men' is just a smokescreen for misogyny and that whole Milo type invective, imo.

cinnamon_girl - Member
My experience from participating ... has been that barriers don't exist in mountain biking and it's a very welcoming activity to all.

Yes that's why Mrs Kilo consistently finds blokes who see it as some sort of a challenge if she overtakes or even tries to overtake them on a trail 😉
I organised a ladies only mtb training session for my cycling club a few years ago and a mixed session at the same time, had no problem filling the ladies session so maybe there is a need for more training options in traditionally male environments to be available.

Trek’s course for women is about taking steps to create more opportunities for women in the bike industry, which in turn should make the industry a more attractive place for women to work – [b]creating a cycle which corrects the gender imbalance[/b]

*applause*

I don't get it. If you have to be 'experienced' in the first place to get on the course, then surely you have already overcome any sexism in the industry?

A shallow attempt for a company to look like they are doing a good thing, without actually tackling the issue (if there is an issue that needs tackling?)

As already said, seems a bit odd given they've most likely already proved they can hold their own in a mixed sex environment.

If it works well for those it's being offered to, then it's good, and nothing else matters at all basically. As far as the course itself goes, at least. I think broadly speaking, everyone else can **** off.

But that's only half the conversation, the other half is the "what does it say about the industry" and "what does the response say about people". They're obviously connected, but it's 2 separate issues

FunkyDunc - Member

I don't get it. If you have to be 'experienced' in the first place to get on the course, then surely you have already overcome any sexism in the industry?

Not really. Maybe you've not experienced it personally, or you don't find it an issue, or maybe you have but have overcome it so far but that doesn't mean it's stopped being an issue- you're overcoming it every day but it's still something you have to deal with. Maybe having to overcome it to get as far as you are, is what stops you going further. Maybe it's not something that you overcome and then move past, like jumping over a fence, maybe it's that lots of things you do involves jumping over a fence while other people don't have to.

"If you have to be 'experienced' in the first place to get on the course, then surely you have already overcome any sexism in the industry?"

You know disadvantage isn't like a wall that once you've climbed you're free from it? Even the most successful people still need help and still face problems because of their background/circumstances. Most successful people from disadvantaged backgrounds remain the exception.

The accepted methods to reduce inequality is to identify the problems that stop people achieving things and deal with them. In the bike industry this might not be just about women, it could also be things like giving maths lessons to staff who aren't academic or developing clothing ranges that allow you to ride wearing full body cover or taking the Athena Swann approach to employment e.g. promoting family friendly working hours. Fundamentally you'll find these things benefit the whole company because you have better staff retention, satisfaction etc.

Seriously, if you think the bike industry is inclusive, pick up a copy of MBR and find me someone who isn't a white male.

The reason I started it was because of endless amounts of women who would just assume they wouldn't be able to fix it themselves even though they Manage to be things like doctors and what have yer
Why do they assume this ?

Good point and wish I could answer! I have no shame in admitting that I'm mechanically inept and furthermore have zero interest in learning how to fix a bike. Soz to the sisterhood. 😀

Edit: just to add that segregating really does seem a backward step in the 21st century. That makes me sad.

Seriously, if you think the bike industry is inclusive, pick up a copy of MBR and find me someone who isn't a white male.

A wonderful quote from 8 years ago when Obama was elected. A news reporter asked an older black woman if she felt it was great news that a black man was elected president.
Her answer - It will be great when it's not news.

I have no shame in admitting that I'm mechanically inept and furthermore have zero interest in learning how to fix a bike. Soz to the sisterhood.

I have no issue with the concept of this; but with my, admittedly limited, experiences of women, I have a few concerns: are women strong enough to be able to torque up the big bolts correctly? What about fitting tyres onto my carbon rims? I'd hate to return to the shop to collect my bike (which cost over a hundred man-hours) and find a woman going at my wheels with a pair of metal tyre levers.
Shock setup? That's all worked out in percentages of sag, which could be tricky for them to calculate?
I think mixed sex bike shops would probably work best; let the man do the spannering (something you don't want to get wrong considering the bike is going to be ridden aggressively at a trail centre) and have the woman run the cafe and "front of house."
You'd get a well "spannered" bike along with great coffee and cakes whilst you wait. Ideally there'd be a TV showing cycling films, or an Xbox, as I'm never comfortable chatting to a woman.

😀

You need to get out more davidtaylforth!

The reason I started it was because of endless amounts of women who would just assume they wouldn't be able to fix it themselves even though they Manage to be things like doctors and what have yer
Why do they assume this ?

IMO many women have had the idea that they can't/shouldn't be doing mechanical things reinforced everywhere they look since they were very small. I'd like to think figures like teachers and parents explicitly telling girls that stuff like that isn't for them is pretty much a thing of the past now, but that message is basically implicit in society so it's not surprising if some of it sinks in.

I am all for a bit of positive outreach to encourage under represented groups into different career paths. Trek creating those opportunities for their top qualification sends a message down the whole employment tree.

Funny thing is there are discussions taking place about getting more men into teaching, and encouraging boys to be more academic as they are currently being outperformed by the girls. The traditional benefiters of past discrimination could soon find roles reversed.

Davidtaylforth comedian - strikes again. 😀

Talia Kemp needs to go on a H&S course next, that hair is just waiting to get caught in something spinny and causing an accident

yeah and her safety specs aren't going to do any good half way down her nose.

One of my wife's female friends is a mechanic at halfords, she says she constantly gets idiot blokes ignoring her or asking to speak to the mechanic as they assume she couldn't possibly do that job.

As a news item this looks like one of those things blown out of all proportion by social media bellendry.

Perhaps participants of both sexes, when booking said courses, should agree to not be disrespectful of others and that failure to adhere would mean removal from course with no refund of fee. Instructor's decision would be final and not open to discussion.

Presumably they will only work in LBS's where all the mechanics are female so they can cope.

All sounds alot pathetic to me

Been going on for years, move on
[img] [/img]

cinnamon_girl - Member
Perhaps participants of both sexes, when booking said courses, should agree to not be disrespectful of others and that failure to adhere would mean removal from course with no refund of fee. Instructor's decision would be final and not open to discussion.

Is the instructor male or female though?

Male obvs, c'mon there is a limit!

Could someone with facebook (I don't) clarify something factual for me - from reading the STW article the FB extracts seem to be saying that the courses are open to all, but they are proactively promoting them to women.

But there's loads of comments in here about "women only" courses - just on a point of fact which is it?

Is the instructor male or female though?

They could wear a scary costume, mask and wig? Just to lighten the proceedings of course and allowing participants to bond and protect each other?

edlong - Member

Could someone with facebook (I don't) clarify something factual for me - from reading the STW article the FB extracts seem to be saying that the courses are open to all, but they are proactively promoting them to women.

I understood that as "the tech courses are open to all, but some of the specific courses are women-only", but I'm not sure if I picked that up from Trek or from one of the responses.

Come on, its there in a nutshell suit. Last line below, 'Tag your favorite to spread the love'. Really? Some girls - sorry companies will do anything for a click these days. Politically correct social networking is exploiting women for there sex, its a disgrace, boycott TREK!

[img][URL= http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg118/nickfitt1/Capture.pn g" target="_blank">http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg118/nickfitt1/Capture.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL][/img]

WTF are you talking about?

Im taking the piss about the fact that Trek appears to be demonstrating its a fair employer by urging women into a predominantly male environment. Then puts something stupid and in my view sexually demeaning like 'tag your favourite and share the love'. Maybe Im over thinking it.