[Closed] Trek Session 29er proto revealed

Super interesting, will be fun to see if any 29ers turn up for the the first race of the World Cup. Maybe Bruni to win on a specialized 29er

They'll be bringing back skinsuits and peakless helmets next...

Unless he's playing his cards very close to his chest, Bruni's comments on 29ers would suggest not.

Righto,noted

Atherton's have been testing a 29" session since last season end. Averaging 2.5-3 seconds faster over the same track compared to a 27.5" wheel bike.
There is 2 other American brands with 29" wheel dh bikes.
There is a direct to market German bike brand with a 29" dh bike

And fox have made a 29" 40 fork

Social media has lost its shit over this today! You'd think for the most part, they'd all been told that Mountain Biking was about to be banned and they'd all have to take up tiddlywinks in the future!

Only thing that surprises me is how the actual expletive deleted, has it taken this long?!?! I mean I know Intense and a couple of others made a prototype a few years ago, when 67deg HA was slack, rims were max of 23mm wide internal and the most extreme tyre available for a 29er was a WTB Stout, but those days are long gone... The pros have long known what Joe Public feared to be true about slack bikes with long wheelbases and bigger wheels meaning bikes don't go round corners, to be utter crap. So why has it taken the designers this long to cotton on?

In a sport where fractions of a second over a 5 minute run can make or break you, and the industry made a wholesale switch from 26" wheels to 650b as a "standard" overnight cos a small handful of pro Enduro racers reckoned they were as much as a second per minute quicker over a race run, I'm gobsmacked it's taken this long to properly explore the benefits of big wheeled DH Bikes!

[img] [/img]

Hasn't this been a prototype for a fair few years now? Above photo from a thread on here 3 years old. I reckon it looks good but will it ever make production?

Only thing that surprises me is how the actual expletive deleted, has it taken this long?!?!

There is 2 other American brands with 29" wheel dh bikes.

KHS and Intense?

There is a direct to market German bike brand with a 29" dh bike

Well it's not Canyon and unlikely to be Radon, so I'm going for YT (especially considering the Neko link).

Alutech Sennes

https://alutech-cycles.com/Sennes-DH-20-Custom-downhill-bike-29

Ah, didn't realise Alutech was German - maybe not YT then.

🙁

The pros have long known what Joe Public feared to be true about slack bikes with long wheelbases and bigger wheels meaning bikes don't go round corners, to be utter crap. So why has it taken the designers this long to cotton on?

To a point, when you get up into the XXL frames 29r just gets too long for some tracks and places. Was very interesting reading a review years ago about 2 DH bikes one was long stable and worked really well on those big fast tracks, the other was much better in the tight techy tree sections UK courses have had.

There comes a point when you have all the frame in there and then the bigger wheels it gets too big.

Only thing that surprises me is how the actual expletive deleted, has it taken this long?!?!

Meh, we have this discussion at the start of every season for the past few years
Teams have been testing them for a while, it's only been recently mfrs got together decent aggressive 29 trail bikes

Here we go

View this post on Instagram

And a mondraker

Article on pink bike
https://m.pinkbike.com/news/fox-29-dh-fork-mondraker-29er-dh-bike.html

Meh.

Couldn't care less about the kit really, I love watching for amazing racing, awesome skills, drama and big smiles.

Kit size is way down the list.

Anyone who doesn't ride MTBs can't even tell the difference between 26, 27.5 and 29 wheels when looking at them - they just look like bikes. And going fast looks cool.

There are issues with chainstay length when combining big wheels and long travel but as reach has got longer and head angles a bit slacker that longer back end can remain balanced. There's also the issue of bar height but considering 160mm forked 29 enduro bikes work I can't see 40mm more height being an issue for many riders on steep tracks.

There were issues with wheels but that should be ok now. The biggest problem holding them back has been the lack of 29 DH tyres - thank the rise of the big enduro bikes for their recent proliferation.

[url=

View this post on Instagram

at speed[/url] but what wheel size?

The plot thickens as Steve Jones hints that big brands (Trek and SC?) are blocking their racers from riding on 29in for marketing reasons...

https://dirtmountainbike.com/racing-events/wheel-fear-hit-lourdes.html

Lew Buchanan and Katy Winton just won round 2 of the SDA on Slash 29s, (Christo Gallagher won the seniors on his, too). Maybe Trek think it's OK for their enduro pros to win downhill races on 29er enduro bikes? 😆

Inners SDA is just a 1 stage ENDURO though isn't it? Everyone else was ****ed from pedalling DH bikes to the uplift all weekend 😉

Northwind 😆 😆

I didn't do the race so I don't want to unfairly comment on the track without riding it, but yeah probably 😆

(Katy decided to show off by riding up the hill)

Interesting that if it is Trek, they'd rather have Gee scraping into the top 10 on 650b than potentially getting back on the podium on 29in.

Interesting that if it is Trek, they'd rather have Gee scraping into the top 10 on 650b than potentially getting back on the podium on 29in.

I don't think wheel size is holding Gee back tbh.

I'm confused why anyone is confused.

Big brands want people to buy the 27.5" downhill bikes now and then have another latest big thing up their sleeves for next year or the year after to keep sales up. They've always known that 29" would be faster, and can't believe their luck that MTBers are stupid enough to buy the 27.5%" is far better for hills bit 29" is best for XC. Then they change it to 29" is better for everything.

And all the sheep go back to the shop and buy the next big thing.

29" is better for everything.

Exactly what thegeneralist said, the manufactures need to keep something to sell in the future, 29er DH bikes will be it I reckon.

29er DH, then gearboxes, then 29er plus, then launch a new range of fun 26 to complement the fast beast 29er. I think thats about 4-6 years worth.

Horses for courses isn't it. Can imagine 29 would be fast at leogang but other steeper and tighter tracks will suit smaller wheels.

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

I don't think wheel size is holding Gee back tbh.

It's interesting isn't it... I mean, if the issue is that they're worried the 29er won't impress with results, then yeah, in the mens'. But in the womens' they can pretty much assume that if Rachel likes it, and it's reasonably good, it'll win world cups. Specialized were happy to have Mitch Gruffalo mess about on an Enduro in world cups because nobody expected him to do all that well regardless of bike but Gee's an awkward middle ground where he could have exactly as good a season this year and people will still say "because his bike sucks"

But the whole thing just doesn't sound very likely. Why send your pros out testing the bike then say nah don't ride that?

But in the womens' they can pretty much assume that if Rachel likes it, and it's reasonably good, it'll win world cups.

But i'd bet Rachel winning sells less bikes than Gee winning does. Tricky one

Why send your pros out testing the bike then say nah don't ride that?

Because thats the point in testing, to see whether or not there is an advantage to be had

Most likely they're holding back until they have product to sell, which Jonsey rightly points out is a bit frustrating from a racing POV.

But i'd bet Rachel winning sells less bikes than Gee winning does. Tricky one

Does he though? great rider, cracking pro, but would ye really buy a bike cos Gee rides it?.

Rachel must sell bikes, indeed I reckon Katy Winton and T-Mo on Insta have made me actually look at Trek bikes like I never have before.

Bit too much tin foil hat here

Its taken a few years to get 29 wheels to fit into a long travel frame and work out what geo and suspension make them work best

now maybe the impetus hasnt been there because companies are worried 29 wont sell as well, but the fact that there have been (expensive) 29er dh protos floating around for 5 odd years shows they are trying

Does he though? great rider, cracking pro, but would ye really buy a bike cos Gee rides it?.

tbh I was thinking purely DH bikes, which is where the bloke winning will always have a bigger impact imo (probs sexist but pretty sure it's true)

From an overall brand view, then yes I also enjoy looking at photos of Katy rather than ones of Gee

legend - Member

Because thats the point in testing, to see whether or not there is an advantage to be had

If there was no advantage in the testing, nobody'd have to tell their pros not to ride it. (I'm dubious as to whether it's happened at all, but the only time it would happen is if the pro wants to ride the bike)

legend - Member

From an overall brand view, then yes I also enjoy looking at photos of Katy rather than ones of Gee

Trek have been very smart with their support of elite females I think. I don't think it's often as crude as "I will buy that bike because X rider rides it"- but perception of success is valuable and they've had a huge return on that with the women- and probably with a greater chance of success (if you're going to pick one name most likely to win dh races, it won't be a guy, it'll be Rachel Atherton, and while Tracy was still racing it was the same for the EWS) And Katy's a PR/social media dynamo and way more relatable than most pros, that's a big deal.

Seriously though, I was 100% heterosexual til this happened.

[img] [/img]

And now I ride a Trek 29er.

Most likely they're holding back until they have product to sell, which Jonsey rightly points out is a bit frustrating from a racing POV.

Probably this, someone's signed off on a year's worth of carbon Sessions and has to sell them all.

[img] [/img]

[url= http://reviews.mtbr.com/the-santa-cruz-syndicate-v10-29 ]Santa Cruz Syndicate on 29er V10 for Lourdes[/url]!

Cool article, that bike looks ridiculous fast.

FOX gave us a critical piece of the puzzle when they delivered a prototype 40 for us to test on a modified Hightower. Our first test session aboard that Hightower [b]showed consistently faster times on the bigger wheels[/b], we all decided we had to go for it. Then the real work began. We machined a few different sets of links, welded up three aluminum swingarms, and did more testing. [b]As the riders got on terms with the new bikes, they got even faster.[/b]

“Greg practically forced me to try the bike” reveals Loris Vergier. “I tried it once in testing, but went straight back to my original 27.5 inch bike because that’s what felt fastest across the length of the test track. But Greg insisted I give the 29er another shot. So I did, and I felt like it was still slower. The clocks don’t lie though, and I was consistently posting quicker times on the new bike compared to the old—and this was on my local track! That’s when I realized the new bike was deceptively quick.”

#27.5isdead

Note also the sneaky mention in the article that the new 40's have Boost 20mm front hub, as noted was likely in the standards thread.

ah my email must be a minute slower than you guys 🙂

It's still early days for 29-inch wheels in downhill and there will always be "horses for courses." At the end of the day, we want to win races. So if any of our riders feel more comfortable in particular conditions or on certain courses with 27.5" wheels that's what they'll ride.

and your quote continues as...

Greg, Luca, and Loris are riding the new bike in Lourdes on April 30th because that’s what they feel most confident on.

😆

Yes for that course, you cut off the ride what they feel comfortable on so in other places it might come back out. I wouldn't write it off yet and if courses change again - remember this WC season is on well known tracks 27 might come right back.

Good for them, respect is due.

They have to say that stuff about "27 might still be best for some courses" so people don't stop buying their production bikes.

#275isdeadreally

Well of course they would say 27 is available, if the riders said they were certain 26 would get them the win SC would dig one out from a bin out the back. But 29 has proven faster on all the testing they have done, even when it feels slower, even on their home tracks! I just cant see them going back for timed competition.

Would agree with that. The speed they hit even the tighter tracks negates the "slow speed handling" issues that general punters like to talk about

I think it's been on the cards for a while, Neko Mulally was interviewed before the start of the 2016 season, he was saying that he'd gone up a size on his frame (or rather had a longer custom one I suspect) because there weren’t as many corners on WC DH tracks anymore, long straights, big jumps, rock gardens and massive berms so he didn't need such an agile frame - if you're not making tight turns and you're rarely losing much speed there doesn't seem much of an advantage to 27 over 29.

The 'Industry' seems more than capable of supporting two wheel sizes at the moment, I don't suspect anything is deader than it was yesterday. Do people actually still buy DH bike anymore?

#26willmakeacomeback

😉

But Greg insisted I give the 29er another shot. So I did, and I felt like it was still slower.

Yes, yes, that's what I want, to feel slower...

Take my money! 😆

Yes, yes, that's what I want, to feel slower...

Take my money!

If you want to place high why ride a slower bike thats fun?
If you want to have more 'fun' why ride a £8000 bike designed just for speed?

£8000?

I think you're under selling it!

But in reality, your point is 100% correct, there is very little connect in what these guys are looking for, compared to us mere hobbyists, and so we shouldn't be too taken by what they do.

I mean, do you know anyone who only uses 3 brake rotor bolt? me neither.

I just hope they are not to fast . Suppose everyone on 29 ers is 5 seconds faster than everyone on 27.5 what does that do to the sport . If downhill becomes a bit like formula 1 where ultimately the guy with best car wins that would be a shame . Although I guess in a couple of years everyone would be on them .

But 29 has proven faster on all the testing they have done, even when it feels slower,

No beer I agree . I'm never sure it's a great idea when brands sell a bike as having big input from a world class racer . If they sold it as having input from someone who sits halfway down Strava leaderboards and rides most technical sections with a foot on the floor then I'd be interested

Maybe Minaar will finally get a bike that fits him 😆

We all know you're just back on here for another swatch at Gee Northy!

Hang on, have we just found the reason ratty didnt want to race the WC this year? #29aintfun 😆

Can't work out from the article whether Santa Cruz have produced an entirely new frame or just adapted a 27.5 one with new linkages/back end/headset cups.

Can't work out from the article whether Santa Cruz have produced an entirely new frame or j[b]ust adapted a 27.5 one with new linkages/back end/headset cups[/b].

That

I'd say the latter Rorshach.

Hang on, have we just found the reason ratty didnt want to race the WC this year? #29aintfun

[url=

e's just riding around having fun on a 29er Hightower instead :D[/url]

Yes it references a normal V10 main triangle.

So Greg still won't have a bike that fits.

😉

I mean, do you know anyone who only uses 3 brake rotor bolt? me neither.

I did for a while

Stripped the thread in a hub so figured three was as good as five. Never had a problem with it.

chakaping - Member

So Greg still won't have a bike that fits.

Good point 😆 Maybe they could give him an xxxxxl front tringle?

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

We all know you're just back on here for another swatch at Gee Northy!

I'm spent tbh.

Do people actually still buy DH bike anymore?

Yup; still a lot getting sold. There's something quite fun about bashing stuff into submission on a silly bike!

It'll be interesting to see if the smaller riders (Hart, Brosnan etc) follow suit and ride the larger wheels of if they stay on 27.5. There have been loads of rumours about big wheeled DH bikes, so it shouldn't be a huge surprise.

Those dual ply DH tyres must weigh a fair bit.

Re. Hart - There has already been speculation, kind of supported by a photo, of a Mondraker 29in DH bike.

It'll be interesting to see if the smaller riders (Hart, Brosnan etc) follow suit and ride the larger wheels of if they stay on 27.5.

Hart has been testing. The other SC guys are running shorter (190 vs 210) travel, not sure how tall they are?

Also, Hart is apparently about 5ft 10in - so not exactly a pipsqueak.

Liteville did something with different sized wheels depending on frame size a while ago. It does make sense - if you're a big unit (Greg) then why wouldn't you want to run bigger wheels? A smaller rider like Hart or Brosnan might not feel as comfortable on a 29er so maybe they'll stick to 650b. As to what is fastest...I'm pretty sure Gwin will still clean up on his Tues regardless of what others are running.

29in front might make a lot of sense for DH flange.

I rode a 650b rear/29in front trail bike extensively and found it retained most of the advantages of big wheels downhill, only really lagging compared to a full 29er on bumpy flat trails.

chakaping - Member

Also, Hart is apparently about 5ft 10in - so not exactly a pipsqueak.

I'm 5'10, he's a wee bit shorter than me. Maybe 5'8 or 5'9?

mindmap3 - Member

Those dual ply DH tyres must weigh a fair bit.

[img] [/img]

that the production minion DH 2.5s weigh 1265g for a 26er, 1390g for a 650b and 1295g for the 29er?

Course, the pros may well not be using the production models, or even necessary the full dh carcasses

The article says

in order to race a carbon bike at Lourdes, we needed to start manufacturing by mid-January. Nick Anderson, our head engineer, finished the design in early January and sent it to our carbon factory to get the tooling machined. "We're fortunate enough to co-own our own carbon manufacturing facility, which gives us bandwidth to indulge in this kind of project," Nick says. "I don't think it would have been possible without this kind of partnership."

so we shouldn't be too taken by what they (the pro's) do.

Have you met the marketing arm of the bike industry recently?

I predict a rash of 27.5 dh bikes on the various classified forums over the next few months.

I predict a rash of 27.5 dh bikes on the various classified forums over the next few months.

I can't think of anyone I know that actually has a 650b DH bike, they're all still on 26....

Something's not right here. Shouldn't the marketing engineers have forced through 650B+ before moving on to 29ers?

Something's not right here. Shouldn't the marketing engineers have forced through 650B+ before moving on to 29ers?

nope, they do 29er then make the frame clearances higher for 29 or 650b+ so you have to buy a new bike.

'marketing engineers'

Do they design tin foil hats? 😆

Something's not right here. Shouldn't the marketing engineers have forced through 650B+ before moving on to 29ers?

Same frame, maybe that's why the forks are 'boost'.

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

'marketing engineers'

Do they design tin foil hats?

They would do, but they're too busy inventing and justifying new 'standards'