[Closed] Tram fall cyclists to sue Edinburgh council

Not sure the chap has a case actually. There are quite a few signs around warning cyclists of the tracks.

Yes, but building a dangerous piece of infrastructure & then putting up a sign about about it isn't really how it should be done.

Do signs admonish them of all responsibility? Serious question.

[quote=imnotverygood said]Yes, but building a dangerous piece of infrastructure & then putting up a sign about about it isn't really how it should be done.

This. Bike lane in a tram line ? WTF.

Do signs admonish them of all responsibility? Serious question.

No, they do not.

Its an awful "cycle lane".

falls happen all the time in melbourne.

[img] [/img]

doesn't look good to cross

David Steele, 55, an elite cyclist and engineer who clocks up 7,000 miles a year on his bike, said he was in a lot of pain for six weeks after falling off his bike on 4 January at Haymarket.

If he does so many miles a year he should probably know not to cross tramlines at a shallow angles, even if the signs/road markings advise him to. Still, terrible bit of infrastructure. The bikes lane really needs to re-routed to avoid the situation above.

Less than a 45 degree angle should be avoided but at Haymarket you are forced on to them at a 15 degree angle, its criminal.

yeah, i think this is key, they've designed it in such a way that you're forced to cross at an inherently unsafe angle. Plus, you're also forced to ride between the two tram lines or (as above) between the curb and a tram line.

If he does so many miles a year he should probably know not to cross tramlines

Just ignored the rest of what he said then?

Cycled along some tram lines in Sheffield for the first time this week. I've got to be honest I didn't find it that problematic and I've not exactly got mad skilz. I was crossing tram lines at a shallow angle and just ensured I lifted the front wheel when crossing. This was with 28cc road tyres, not some sort of fat bike.

That being said it was dry and not the most relaxing experience but it does help keep you focused. I can see how in the wet if you're not paying attention it may cause you to come undone.

Not very well thought out infrastructure, if experienced cyclists are being caught out.

P.S.
Curb - the act of limiting or curtailing something.
Kerb - edge of pavement, where it meets the road.

It never ceases to amaze me how spectacularly Edinburgh screwed up with it's tram "network".

Manchester managed to build nearly 7x that amount of tram-line for less than half the cost of Edinburgh's line over the course of 10 years. Edinburgh took 6 years to build 15km and managed to completely balls up any form of integration with any other traffic. I dread to imagine the weapons-grade bellend who thought that a cycle lane down the middle of a tram-line was a good idea...

Just ignored the rest of what he said then?

In true STW style, yup 😉

Another classic train line, road, cycle path interface is outside Portmadoc station where the welsh highland line crosses the road.

A few signs and quite a few falls.

It never ceases to amaze me how spectacularly Edinburgh screwed up with it's tram "network".

IIRC there are some very specific legal tolerances for how far proud of the surrounding road rails are allowed to protrude.

I've only cycled in Edinburgh maybe once or twice with the tram/lane stuff. Round Haymarket Yards is a bit iffy for sure, and it was dry. I don't think forcing the lane to cross at that shallow angle is great, and don't imagine putting up signs warning of this is enough - like putting a rough path alongside a dual carriageway and then saying "you must take care, walkers, this is dangerous stuff".

There is a similar issue with motorcycles. When councils resurface roads, particularly rural roads, they tend to put down a lot of fine gravel and let the traffic bed it in before coming back a few weeks later to finish it off. Along comes a motorbike, with perhaps a one inch square contact point (and significantly higher speeds the bicycles), hits the gravel on a corner and loss of control can occur. Councils don't accept that it's a safety issue and as motorbikes are a minority group they don't give a damn. I doubt this Edinburgh case will get anywhere unfortunately.

I cross the tramlines all the time on my road bike. They are not difficult to cross in any way shape or form. FWIW, the "elite" cyclist is fond of wearing team kit and polka dot jerseys.... 55yr old elite cyclist who cannae bunny hop. Hmmmm CHINNY RECKON.

Hardly a great advert for Edinburgh's get folk on their bike policy though, eh?

Can, or should, the majority of cyclists have to bunny hop or be competent / confident to negotiate them? in all weathers?

However it'll be another year or maybe more before before I'll be there again, so maybe I DGAS.

bigrich - Member
falls happen all the time in melbourne.

but the tram network has been around for over 100 years in melbourne - I'm sure if implemented today a cycle friendly solution would be found 🙄 *

(*but only in some council areas and then VicRoads would then stuff them)

in melbourne most of the tram lines run in the centre of the road and crossing them (even in the wet) is OK - I previously lived in Sheffield and hated riding on sections of tram track that shared the only road space as in the Edinburgh scheme - (Middlewood road through Hillsborough) experienced a couple of near miss incidents that are in the "lucky i got away with that" category

I thought Edinburgh council had sorted the problem with this simple solution available on the council website - so much better than ignoring all the input given at the design stage

[i]"Know your limits. Depending on the situation and your cycling experience, you may prefer to get off your bike at a safe point on the road to continue your journey."[/i] which translates as get off and walk

[url] http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20126/trams/176/tram_safety [/url]

I hope a successful class action will help remind road planners that cyclist safety has to be designed in

To answer your bunny hop question - yes, because that's how you ride over tramlines.

To answer your bunny hop question - yes, because that's how you ride over tramlines.

That picture in the OP says it all. What ****ing idiot decided to include cyclists and trams in the same lane.

Sorry, I think the council needs to rethink.

No, you don't need to learn to bunny hop to ride a bike round Edinburgh. Edinburgh tram line has around a mile at most of tramlines that you may need to ride on compared to a few hundred miles where you don't.

Edinburgh tram line has around a mile at most of tramlines that you may need to ride on compared to a few hundred miles where you don't.

That's even worse!
The solicitor quote in the OP says he's representing "60 clients" who have fallen off their bikes due to the tram lines.

If there is only 1 mile of conflict where cyclists have to cross lines then that's a huge problem. 1 mile of cyclelane/tramline interaction with 60 crashes? That's a problem with route design and integration, not just a couple of idiots who can't ride bikes.

There's only 9 miles of tramline anyway but if there's a 1-mile segment of it which has been the location for all these 60 crashes, that's your problem right there. Shit design.

To be frivolous for a second, this wouldn't be a problem if we all rode fat bikes.

So the answer to the question where can you ride a fat bike other than the beach or on snow now has to include Edinburgh streets.

Maybe if the council bought everyone a nice fat bike the problem would go away.

But yes, the design looks flawed from the two pictures.

There are some dodgy tram line / cycle lane interfaces in Edinburgh for sure.

For those above implying that all that's needed is madder skillz and proper concentration. That's all well and good, except like when I was riding home tonight and you have a horrible dark, wet evening mixed with having buses and taxis to contend with, and stag dos staggering across the roads all over the shop.

You can't cover up something that's dangerous with a couple of warning signs.

My concern is the likely response to counter litigation will be to ban cyclists from cycling along certain stretches of road

Obviously the solution should include ramps so cyclists can jump over the tracks to avoid getting their wheels stuck

How about some north shore installations to allow cyclists to ride safely a few metres above the nasty four wheeled vehicles?

Stewart White, of Thompsons Solicitors Scotland, said "Kerrrrrrrchiiiiiiing!" as £ symbols appeared in his eyes.

The easiest solution is to paint the crossing sections with gritty tar resin stuff (not sure what is called) like they do on some rail crossings in busy places job done! No then have it checked and topped up as part of a routine for the council roads team, boom jobs done.

How is Edinburgh different to Amsterdam? I lived near there for a while and the bikes and trams seemed to play together nicely. I don't recall seeing scores of Dutch rolling around the floor in a daze because of the tramlines. Lots of (mainly) British tourists, yes, but that was caused by something else.

It's down to the fact that lots and lots of people in Edinburgh are more than a bit special.

Tramlines are just a regular hazard, but the bit outside Haymarket is bad design.

The Dutch planners involved at the beginning of the project recommended seperating the bike lanes and the trams, it appears this was ignored by TIE. The Section at Haymarket force cyclists to cross the tramlines at an acute angle, contrary to the advise given to cyclists. Hopefully this legal action will force the council to rethink cycle infrastructure.

Good luck to them; I hope the action is successful.
Edinburgh Council just didn't bother designing safe, effective cycle infrastructure into the tram project. They ignored cyclists, and then tried to bodge a solution at the end of the project. That's unforgivable in the 21st century.
Haymarket is a confusing, dangerous mess and I'm not surprised people are having accidents.
Edinburgh cycling infrastructure is pretty poor overall, and it speaks volumes that the Council didn't even bother doing things properly on their flagship transport project.

Sorry but cycling infrastructure in Edinburgh is exceptionally good by uk standards. It's just that folk are trying to cross wet tram tracks at narrow angles at 20mph without thinking about what might happen.

Stewart White, of Thompsons Solicitors Scotland, said "Kerrrrrrrchiiiiiiing!" as £ symbols appeared in his eyes

Is that a an un diagnosed medical condtion based on many years experience.

It's just that folk are trying to cross wet tram tracks at narrow angles at 20mph without thinking about what might happen.

Slow down to safely pass a hazard are you mental?

Sorry but cycling infrastructure in Edinburgh is exceptionally good by uk standards

wanmankylung - Member
Slow down to safely pass a hazard are you mental?

We all expect car drivers to slow down to match the road conditions and avoid hazards, but not cyclists?

It's down to the fact that lots and lots of people in Edinburgh are more than a bit special.

All joking aside, ^^This.

Don't know if they've changed it since the incidents in question but haymarket you're actually supposed to swerve left into the station then wait at the lights - no-one does that of course, it's shit, but the alternative is to swerve across traffic as it takes of from the lights which isn't always so popular.

The tracks at going up from princes street are probably worse, you need to stay way left then swerve into the road to get over them, sometimes traffic is trying to pass you at that point..

dunno what the solution is though, other than ditch the shitty trams, that would work.

That looks mad. My first reaction was definitely 'learn to ride tram tracks' but when you see the design it's crazy, so good look to them. You are never going to encourage more cyclists if they have to navigate something like that. I had one corner on my way to work with something like that and even though I've been cycling for 30years I went down a couple of times as you can't always unweight the front wheel just right or turn in time because a car is blocking you. In the end I just changed my route to avoid it but you shouldn't need that with new infrastructure.

Hope they succeed

dunno what the solution is though, other than ditch the shitty trams, that would work.

Probably all cycle traffic being diverted onto George Street though that's not perfect at present.

Yeah, crossing the rails at the east end of Princes Street is tricky - you can't take primary position as you are parallel to the track and you have to be very aware of the proximity of traffic from behind.
I know plenty of less confident city cyclists who wouldn't bike along Princes Street and looking at these messy and difficult areas of traffic integration does little to encourage anyone to want to try it.

Sorry but cycling infrastructure in Edinburgh is exceptionally good [b]by uk standards[/b]

We'll have to disagree on this. I find Edinburgh's cycling infrastructure is patchy, disjointed, badly designed and often badly maintained. There's a good example near me where the cycle path has to cross a busy dual carriageway. To get to the other side of the road involves a half kilometre detour crossing 4 exit junctions and 3 different roads, only two of which have pedestrian crossing controls. Coincidentally, this existing problem could actually have been fixed as part of the tram works. The change was requested by the local cycling campaign group, but rejected by the Council.

The Haymarket cycle route involves leaving and rejoining the road, crossing and re-crossing the tram tracks, and features a narrow space between the tram lines and the kerb. I've been cycling and commuting for a long time, and the first time I used it, I found it difficult to work out where I was supposed to be riding. Infrastructure should be designed to remove confusion and risk, and make it easy for cyclists to get from A to B safely and quickly. Haymarket is a complete afterthought, and it's not surprising that people are having accidents.

Way back in autumn 2005, TIE stuck a tram in Princes Street gardens with lots of shiny people there to do consultation / PR on the trams. I had a long conversation with them about the profile of the rails, the implication for bike tyres and the solutions which could be found to minimise the risk.

That included routing, angle of attack and the use of a sort of vulcanised rubber cover for the gap which heavy trams could depress but light bikes wouldn't. I was not the first person to raise the issue as the responses seemed reasonably well informed and assurances about managing risk to bikes were made.

None of that happened.

Those who are saying people are too special maybe fail to understand the junctions involved. Haymarket has lots of inter-lane movement of different traffic types and an off camber bend heading west right on the cycle lane. The rails limit the ability to take the inevitable avoiding action required when a vehicle cuts you up. Riding through it is a problem because traffic doesn't give bikes the space to do it safely.

Probably all cycle traffic being diverted onto George Street though that's not perfect at present.

ignoring how ridiculous the george street arrangement is, it's in between the most challenging sections for bikes anyway

my favourite bit of town centre bike routing is the bit down from the mound where you are encouraged to mount the pavement, ride through tourists then into a single lane of fast moving buses. I would do it anyway, but i'm glad they put little pictures of bikes there too.

No, I definitely do understand the junctions involved. I've been riding through them almost daily for quite a long time. As for the traffic not giving you space thing just take the space.

it's not possible to "just take the space" safely unless you are going 20mph+ which you have already established is a bad idea when dealing with tram tracks

As for the traffic not giving you space thing just take the space

I once left Haymarket Terrace in the back of an ambulance whilst taking the space - entirely down to driver stupidity.

Many people are too scared to take the space - there may be lots of cycle commuters but skill isn't universally high. The infrastructure needs to be good enough for the below average skill or confidence levels, not just the expert. And it isn't.

The expert cyclist did write off £600 of clothing in his tumble. Even dressed head to toe in rapha it must have been some fall to write it all off.

[i]I cross the tramlines all the time on my road bike. They are not difficult to cross in any way shape or form[/i]
I also live in a city with a massive tram infastructure and yes isolated tram tracks are easy enough to bunny hop over but the problem is you share the road with users who do unexpected things that require you to take evasive action quickly sometimes hitting the tracks at the wrong angle and if it's wet or worse cold (the metal ices up quicker than the road) you haven't a chance.

Agree. Cycling through the city, especially in that bus / train station called Princess Street, commands a lot of attention and maneuvering, and is inherently dangerous. The tram tracks are just the icing on the cake. The whole city center road design takes no account of actual bike use.

Also, the trams are nonsense:

8. LUGGAGE

The following items may NOT be taken onto the Company’s trams:

bicycles except if specifically permitted by way of notices along with publication of the applicable conditions on the Company’s website. Folding bicycles which are folded and fully enclosed in a suitable carrying bag will be carried providing there is space available on the tram to do so.

http://edinburghtrams.com/information/conditions-of-carriage

So in places like Portland, the trams can be designed so people can take bikes on them no problem, but Edinburgh is so special, we canny have those horrible contraptions on our lovely new trams.

Given that people successfully sue councils for tripping over broken paving slabs, an accident which you could avoid by simply looking where you are going while carrying out the very basic motor skill of walking, I'd have thought the chance of success here was pretty high. I'd like to see the council say in court, 'this could be easily avoided by either bunny hopping over the tracks or 'making space' in traffic prior to turning your bike at right angles to the traffic flow. Your honour '

No, I definitely do understand the junctions involved. I've been riding through them almost daily for quite a long time. As for the traffic not giving you space thing just take the space.

I'm struggling to come to terms with how awesome you are, can you send me a picture so I can fap one out?

Whatever happened to watching where you're going & taking responsibility for your own actions? Com-pen-say-shun... FFS.

onehundredthidiot - Member

The expert cyclist did write off £600 of clothing in his tumble. Even dressed head to toe in rapha it must have been some fall to write it all off.

£200 for a decent waterproof jacket? £100 for a helmet? £100 for a good pair of tights? £150 for a good set of SPD shoes?

We're already at £550 and none of those prices are top-end, they don't include gloves, glasses, etc. If he'd been wearing Rapha then a ripped pair of tights and a damaged softshell could add up to £440 before anything else.

Not everyone dresses in Aldi specials. 😉

The items don't need to be written off to make a claim. Just a scuff that wasn't his fault, or a small rip maybe....

Whatever happened to watching where you're going & taking responsibility for your own actions? Com-pen-say-shun... FFS.

There's some specific bits that are bad. I'd be really curious to know how many of the falls happened on those, though. All the early stories I saw (and the 2 actual falls I've seen) have been total user error, just wandering into the line for no reason and there seems to be an assumption here that if someone falls on the tram line, it must be because there's a problem.

I think my basic opinion is that yes, a tram line is a hazard to an unskilled cyclist. But the entire world is a hazard to an unskilled cyclist. Til we put childproof locks on them, people will fall off and hurt themselves. A lot of people have a real boner for the trams, some for valid reasons, some for cynical reasons, some for illogical reasons so it's very easy for an anti-tram story to get a lot of attention.

I'm one of the first to sneer at the compensation culture, but the statistics and those pictures clearly show a problem.
This sums it up completely.

The infrastructure needs to be good enough for the below average skill or confidence levels, not just the expert. And it isn't.

The bit immediately in front of Haymarket station heading out of town - both on the road and following the cycle route - is potentially lethal and the council have been negligent in allowing the road design there IMO. This is also part of the NCN and the road markings are part of the problem, rather than a solution.

You can't hold the road AND cross the lines at a safe angle. In simple terms, the road curves gently to the right and the tram lines curve gently to the left across the road so you have to cross both tracks at a dodgy angle in quick succession. I stay hard left then slow and cut right to cross at as much of an angle as possible, don't mind it much on MTB but still gives me jitters in the wet on road tyres. This is a busy stretch of road and there's a lot of buses and taxis. Moving the taxi rank has helped slightly but really the inside lane needs to be given over to cycles with a physical obstacle preventing other traffic from entering the space.

The rest of the tram/ bike infra isn't too bad - you need to be aware of it and it restricts your "swerve space", and take care on crossings. People coming off there is more bad luck, but Haymarket is inherently dangerous and needs sorted. Unless people are prepared to sue the council I don't see this happening.

I don't have an issue with most of the tram tracks, yes they represent a hazard, but I do agree that you need to look out for them. I also accept that there are tram tracks all over the world that seem to be ok for most cyclists. My issue, like Stu, is with Haymarket. There is no doubt that the way the road is set out, along with the way the traffic behaves there, makes it a serious risk. I think NW is right in that just because someone falls off on tram rail that this does not necessarily mean there is a design fault. You have to look at each incident on its merits, and I think it is pretty clear that Haymarket needs a major re-design.

[url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @55.946165,-3.216519,3a,75y,245.42h,76.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_WPIxNEHFN8GewzmpOw_Zw!2e0]Streetview [/url]

Walk yourself out past Haymarket - basically follow the black Mazda - and the tram stop.

You won't be able to use the cut left as the area will be blocked by taxis, delivery vans and people dropping off. Plus the lights don't change for cycles so you can be sitting there for 2-3 mins trying to rejoin the traffic.

See how many times you have to cross tracks and the angles.

Then think about having a bus right behind you, pedestrians going in and out the station, often using the cobbled kerb as a short cut, sometimes stepping into the road. Oh, and it's also dark and raining.

Now tell me it's fine.

Oh, and if you want to go down into Haymarket Yards to join the bike path? FFS. Cross 4 tracks, squeeze in a foot wide lane between kerb and track, another 4 tracks to cross again.

More street view....

https://goo.gl/maps/AyKtY

Good, eh?

😯 blimey. I thought Weymourth was bad enough, but at least nobody forces you to ride between the tracks.

I was in Edinburgh yesterday, one of our guys got the tram from the airport to the centre - he reckoned it took longer than the bus he normally gets...

And pull up a chair and read the comments:

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/tram-fall-cyclists-to-sue-negligent-council-1-3669664

^^^^ Yep gotta feel the cyclist love 🙂

The tram is slower partly due to a round about route and much more expensive than the bus from the airport to the city centre. Even when in open areas away from the road the tram seems to crawl along. When the trams came in the frequency of the airport buses was increased (one every ten minutes I think) which doesn't do much to encourage tram use by airport users.

And if I recall correctly the original plan years ago [i]was[/i] to ban cyclists from Princes Street, so they might revert to that.

Best watch out for the St Petersburg ones too.

Just about to say the same

dudeofdoom - Member

^^^^ Yep gotta feel the cyclist love

We're the only thing the evening news readership hates even more than trams.

"Your wrose tahn [s]hitler[/s] efficient mass transportation!"

Sound like a valid reason to get a fat bike if you ask me.