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Garmin Connect tells me that my "training*" is lacking in High Aerobic activity.
A bit of Googling suggests some riding at fairly tight power zones (eg 2x 20 mins @ 80-85% of FTP) would help.
For me, 80-85% FTP represents 230W +/- 7 watts and I find it impossible to maintain power in such a tightly defined band outside. I've got some decent hills locally which I could use for training but the grade varies too much to keep a near-constant power output and any flat(er) roads have too many junctions/stop signs/traffic lights
So:
(a) is it really necessary to keep inside those bands for the duration of the segment or is an approximation sufficient?
(b) do you manage to keep inside tightly defined power/heart rate zones? If so, how?? (What sort of roads do you find best?)
[The best route I have locally (least junctions and sufficiently hilly/long enough for 20 mins constant high effort) has grades fluctuations from about 4% to short ramps of about 15% and on those ramps I'm putting out over 330W just to maintain forward momentum at a really slow cadence - so well outside target range...🤷]
* I don't race or do "events", hence the quotation marks as it doesn't really matter but I'm trying to maintain all-round riding fitness...
I don’t know the answers but I do have an opinion so of course I’m going to state it like fact 😀
a. An approximation will be fine
b. On a smart trainer
I'm relatively new to power outdoors w some Favero pedals. There is 0 chance that I can hold a steady power outside, but it is useful(ish) for estimating effort, and the data feeds into TR's AI model.
I think if you have a Garmin head unit you can customise some of your data fields to show average power over a 3, 5, 10 second interval and maybe longer. That might be a better way to manage your power if outside.
But if you need to manage the effort, you could just use your HR zones to decide how hard to go (an)aerobically. HR is steadier over time where power can change from pedal stroke to stroke and even within a pedal stroke. HR also seems to be a better way to track physiological effort as it changes with how you're feeling, whereas power is power and doesn't reflect if you're having an off day
If you want to do the consistency thing then indoor erg sessions on a trainer are the way to go..
I do a mix of outdoor and indoor intervals. I used to race but these days I just do it because I enjoy them and I like being generally fit. Here's my experience.
(a) is it really necessary to keep inside those bands for the duration of the segment or is an approximation sufficient?
It makes a bit of difference if I can keep it tighter to power targets but most of the befefit comes from just getting on the bike and doing the intervals.
(b) do you manage to keep inside tightly defined power/heart rate zones? If so, how?? (What sort of roads do you find best?)
Hills are for sure the best even in the gradient isn't super steady. Once I've used a hill a few times I get to know how the gradient varies and can usually keep somewhere within the targets. I'll tend to aim for the higher end of the range to give a bit of wiggle room. It probably took me a few months of outdoor intervals to really get the hang of things but for a lot of sessions now I can more or less go by feel much of the time.
Of course, doing the intervals on a smart trainer in ERG mode is the easiest way to do it and also means less time riding to the hill etc etc.
Of course, doing the intervals on a smart trainer in ERG mode is the easiest way to do it and also means less time riding to the hill etc etc.
Agreed but I'm flexible enough with time that I can afford to wait for a good weather window (at the moment!) so I'm putting off using my turbo until the weather turns really shitty.
If I use HR instead of power to judge effort, what percent of max HR is equivalent of "high aerobic" (presumably Z4 whereas Anaerobic is Z5??). Would this satisfy the Garmin algorithm?
Is it fun?
Of any type?
Hmm. I’ve never used heart rate for that kind of interval apart from the occasional sense check if I’m not feeling great.
I’d personally rather just use RPE as a guide. If you’re aiming for longer efforts then aim to feel 😬 but not 😫 by the end of the first effort but allow yourself a bit more 😫 towards end of the session. If you finish an interval feeling 💀then either cool it off a bit for the next interval or even call it a day.
I wouldn't immediately think of 80-85% of FTP as being "high aerobic." That's sweetspot ballpark.
To me, "high aerobic" would be VO2 zone 5 efforts, 120% FTP if 4min intervals which could drop towards 110% FTP for 8min intervals {supposed to be more benefit from 8min than 4min}.
~3mins minimum between each interval.
Using your heart rate instead, you need an idea of your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate, https://intervals.icu/ (donate-ware stat nerd site) uses 98% of your highest 20min average to estimate LTHR. Like FTP, it's dynamic and loses accuracy if not regularly tested every ~6 weeks.
Lot easier to do on a turbo than outdoors, but for me it's more fun outside, trying to get up local ~260+ foot hills as quick as I can. Used to be on a normal bike, recently on ebike.
Yeah, my Strava is linked to Intervals.icu as I use that to monitor my fitness & fatigue.
Anyway, ChatGPT (!) has given me some guidance as suggests:
Option 1: Tempo Ride (Z3)
60–90 min at 75–85% FTP (215–245 W)
Feels “steady but strong,” like a brisk solo ride
Option 2: Sweet Spot Intervals
3 × 15 min at 88–92% FTP (250–260 W)
5 min easy between each
Option 3: Over/Unders
4 × 8 min: alternate 2 min at 95% FTP (270 W) / 2 min at 85% FTP (240 W)
Builds threshold endurance fast
Even one of these per week (about 45–75 min of sustained Z3–Z4 work) will make Garmin’s high aerobic shortage message disappear after a few training cycles.
So, if I can find a local, not-so-steep climb of around 15 mins with no junctions, I'll aim for the Sweet Spot intervals...
On the other hand, the weather turns shit soon so I may be on my turbo anyway....
Use average lap power?
AI;DR
Awesome site btw, thank you!
The only bad thing about this thread is reminding me I should probably do an FTP test before I am too far into the winter turbo season.
Sweetspot intervals are highly effective, but it will take some practice if you're doing them outside.
Use normalized 3 second power and normalized lap power and focus on how hard you're pushing the pedals - don't try and force a number on the Garmin. i.e. the first skill to develop is just riding at a constant intensity, then use the Garmin to check yourself when going up inclines/hills. You really need to find a route that doesn't have 15% ramps!! That's just not going to work, up or down. More major roads are usually best, can be out on back on the same road, can be a short loop that you ride 6 times. Local TT courses are usually very good (all left turns or roundabouts). Don't worry if you're stopping or slowing for junctions a few times, it's never going to be perfect. More important not to go over FTP I would say, something like 80%-95% FTP is a good range to aim for initially - that's tempo and sweetspot. (Sweetspot is upper tempo/lower threshold). Once you've done a few weeks/months training, you will find you have no problem separating out tempo from sweespot from threshold, but it will take a bit of time to develop the skill. One final thing - when you start an interval, press lap only once you are up to the correct intensity, otherwise Garmin will mess up the lap NP and you'll be trying to chase it up.
Simple: reinstate the STW zwift time-trial team(s) and do that every week. I've never been so fit (admittedly it's the closest to training I've ever come)
Personally i found 3-4 x 7 mins to be just as good if not better training for threshold whilst being much more practicable to incorporate into something like a long commute.
The 20+min intervals outdoors are more useful for mental training/technique, hitting the numbers while dealing with varying gradients, changing gears etc. Good simulation for real world pedalling technique, breakaways/bridging in races etc but not necesserally the best for raw aerobic development.
So for example I was averaging 350W for a constant effort on a trainer i'd still be happy with 320W average for a lap of Richmond park, the 10% loss accounts for the lumpy effort handling the gradients. The former is still better aerobic threshold training but the latter probably is better sharpening for real world racing.
TBH this is what smart trainers are for, I find it hard to enjoy a ride where I’m trying to hold consistent power/effort for any period, that includes commuting.
A Smart trainer (that measures power) pop some headphones on for an hour or so, a couple of evenings a week and you’re done.
Its far less effort/faff then trying to find the right gradient of local road to hold 220w for 10 minutes at a time, while dodging Range, Rovers at sunset.
But also don’t get super hung up on the numbers, it’s just trying to get you accustomed to sweet spot efforts (that varies by individual)…
power meters are for telling you to go easier. For zone 2, ride on the inner ring if you’re on 2x. Keeps the power down as you spin. For zone 4, I go racing. Last week I did a 100 miles across Mallorca and back mainly in zone 2 and mainly on the inside ring. When I climbed the two cols, I still rode to a power (220-240W), below threshold. Just find a decent flattish loop and stay on the inside ring and spin. Then spin some more on the hills.
Good info here!
For smart trainer sessions I’d recommend switching off ERG and learning to pace longer SS intervals…helps pass the time!
Be conservative with your FTP, far too many people get caught up in trying to generate the highest number possible but it’s counterproductive
For zone 4, I go racing.
That was the only way I could ever find to build fitness quickly. This was in the pre-power meter days (although I did used to use a HRM) but realistically to get anywhere near "fast" (for me!) I had to do early season crits. The first 2 or 3 I'd be blowing out my arse. The second batch of 2 or 3 I'd be in the bunch and by 5-6 weeks in, I'd be able to work on the front, chase, initiate breakaways etc.
Could always tell in thse early races who'd spent the winter sitting on rollers looking at a garage door and who'd been racing CX. The former could barely turn corners for the first couple of weeks, the latter were honed to perfection already. And in the middle were people like me who'd sort of ridden through winter but not as much or as fast as normal.
As mentioned, trying to find roads with the right sort of conditions, gradient etc free of traffic and junctions was a total pain - much easier to just smash around a circuit for an hour. I was lucky in that there were 3 circuits local to me back then.
(a) is it really necessary to keep inside those bands for the duration of the segment or is an approximation sufficient?
Apparently there's quite a lot of evidence suggesting that training to RPE - Rate of Perceived Exertion - is as effective as using a power meter and, in some ways better, in that you can adjust effort to suit conditions / your state of recovery in a way that training purely to power can't. Eg: if it's super hot a target power of say 300w is harder to sustain than at lower temperatures, whereas RPE will sort of mean you can adjust your perceived effort in context, if that makes sense.
My experience of training pre-power meter / smart turbo, was that from VO2 Max and upwards, it's more about going really bloody hard than hitting an exact number, but I am very much not a coach.
For an impromptu session, you can always head out and batter yourself on every short rise/hill then recover between / race between signs or lamp posts etc, though obviously it depends on your local terrain.
it's more about going really bloody hard than hitting an exact number, but I am very much not a coach.
It's straightforward to go out really bloody hard and get Anaerobic points. And it's easy to go easy and get Low Aerobic points, but I'm mystified about what I should be doing for High Aerobic points (past VO2 sessions haven't added point to the High Aerobic total 🤷)
Though I'm somewhat skeptical of Garmin's algorithm because these numbers seem to be randomly generated - after my last turbo session using Garmin's own Training app), the only change to these numbers was my Low Aerobic points went down (from 1401 to 1324)!
It's straightforward to go out really bloody hard and get Anaerobic points. And it's easy to go easy and get Low Aerobic points, but I'm mystified about what I should be doing for High Aerobic points (past VO2 sessions haven't added point to the High Aerobic total
)
Find a hill that's than around 30 seconds plus and go sustainably really bloody hard, but not 100% flat out, roll down, turn round and repeat about six times, five minutes recovery and do another set and then one more and don't get too het up about Garmin would be my take. A classic VO2 Max session is 30/30 where you hammer a gentle climb for 30 seconds, recover for 30 and repeat around six times flat out from a rolling start. It's not a full-out 100% sprint, but it's not far off. Or longer. The main thing is that you're above threshold, so it's not something that feels like a remotely sustainable pace, but it's not a 100% all-out sprint, if that makes sense. I'd guess 8/10 as opposed to 10/10, though by the end of an interval session you'll be trashed... You can do longer VO2 intervals too, but I think they're even worse tbh, ymmv.
I guess the advantage of power is that it takes any subjectivity out of the equation. Maybe see if you can find a way of doing some VO2 intervals based on power then extrapolate that over to RPE. Fwiw, it's a really unpleasant experience and hurts lots. Worse than a sprint ime because it's more sustained, so you're more aware of the pain 🙂