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Well I've just booked flights to do Torino-Nice at the back end of August. A little bit scared.
I'm resident on the edge of the Peak District, so used to a fair amount of climbing, but relatively short, relatively steep. Not a couple of hours on the same ascent. Whilst I've MTBed in the Alps (last trip was Stoneking Rally which had a fair amount of climbing), I've never done any road cols, so don't have a feel for what its like. I'm doing it over 7 days, so ~100k per day, which sounds fine, but every day is well over 2k of up; a couple are over 3k.
So what's the best way to prepare for it? I have no interest in indoor training - whatever it is needs to be outdoors in the real world.
..and while we're at it - whats thoughts on gearing? I'll be taking my gravelbike; currently on 38(oval) and 10-42 which deals with everything locally, no matter the gradient. I've got a 10-46 I can stick on, at the expense of bigger gaps in the cassette. I'm creditcard touring, rather than camp/bivvying so while I will be carrying "stuff" it'll be towards the lighter end of the spectrum.
Thoughts and ideas?
Thanks...
Great stuff ..
Climbing - if you can ride short steep UK stuff well you can ride longer steadier stuff, it's just a Q of pace. I think 2000-3000m road days in the UK can feel harder just because of the gradients. If I was going to train for that kind of road and gravel climbing in the Alps I'd do hill reps or 5x 4-5 min intervals at threshold to get my FTP up, that will raise output at all effort levels inc steady climbing.
Gearing - make sure you can keep a steady pace, that's about it. Don't discount the effect of altitude, but you'll have experienced that before. I have but I often forget how hard it can make things.
I'd put the bigger cassette on the back - if you're mainly going very up or very down, then gaps in the middle won't bother you. In the meantime, if it's there, you don't have to use the bottom, but if it's not, you can't.
As you’ve only got 5 or 6 weeks to train you probably haven’t got time to make any massive improvements, especially if indoor stuff is out of the question. Look at how much food and fluids you’re going to need to get in each day to be ready for the next and that means loading the week before.
riding wise I’d do some overgeared efforts on you’re normal rides, so 1 or 2 gears harder than is comfortable on climbs and some standing climbing too so you can stretch the back and legs a bit. But if you’ve done stone king, back to back 2-3000m days on road shouldn’t be too difficult I would say.
I'd definitely fit the wider range cassette, especially if you have little idea of how you will do up sustained climbs of 2 hours. Better to have easier gears and not need them, rather than the opposite.
Get some hilly rides in similar in elevation to your planned trip days, whether that's hill reps, or covering more distance to link up many UK hills. But taper at least the last week before your trip, so you don't arrive with dead legs!
Bigger cassette for sure.
A mate told me Froggatt Edge was the right gradient for long steady climbs in Europe. I like Via Gellia from Cromford up to wherever - it's only 3% average but depending which direction you go you can make it 5-7 miles. Quite a nice quiet road early on a weekend morning.
Find out where the longest climb/most vert/steepest grade/longest time duration climb on your route is, and replicate "locally" by riding up a smaller version multiple times?
Eg if you can predict your biggest climb is gonna take 2hrs (use Komoot for estimates), then go and find a 30 minute climb locally and ride it four times back-to-back...that will give you a reasonable idea of where your fitness is (and your pacing)
Look at the segments/climbs on veloviewer, work out how they compare in steepness to what you're used to.
Work out if your gearing suits
Then go and pick some local climbs and do reps......one session a week and build up # of reps every one or two weeks. Do some endurance rides alongside that.
You can't replicate what you're getting there, so you have to build a model that gives you similar stress.
Went to the alps as a virgin a couple of years ago. ...did regular reps on Ditchling Beacon, made it to 8 reps before the trip, and it set me up for Croix de Fer and AdH
Fit the bigger casette and use easy gears from the bottom of the climb. Trying to push a gear like on a 200m climb will result in very heavy legs at the top of a 1000m climb with thinner air as you go higher. I doubt specific training will help much but changing your appraoch will. It might be hot - sun protection and drinking enough should be priorities.
I'll buck the trend and say that if you're happy with 10-42 around the Peak, you won't need anything more.
I've not ridden Torino-Nice, but I have ridden a bunch of long climbs in the Alps/Pyrenees. I'm happy with the same gearing as I run for the Peak.
Agree that mindset on long climbs is really important. Hill reps and long rides will help with fitness, but on a climb that long it's very much about settling in and finding a rhythm. Don't go looking for the hurt in the way you might on your local climbs.
I think a 10-42 cassette will be fine for the kinds of climb you're doing as long as you're not carrying much but the bigger cassette won't hurt.
As a regular cyclist it’s more a case of mastering the mental side than being concerned about your physical capabilities - an emphasis on dropping a gear below what you initially feel, reducing the resistance and keeping the cadence up. It might be my physical make up, but I find shifting my position on the saddle back a little, lengthening my legs and engaging gluteus maximus rather than a shortening my legs and using quads, helps maintain a lighter spin over the extended inclines.
Agree that being able to find your rhythm and just sit and spin is what gets you up the big, long hills - attempts to try and muscle your way up them in too big a gear often don’t end well. In most cases, you can’t have too low a gear, particularly when the heat and altitude take their toll. Being able to get out the saddle for a stretch can help by using different muscle groups e.g around hairpins.
To me those are big days out. You will need to climb at a sustainable rate ie no going into the red then recovering as you will be climbing for a while. Low gears and sit and spin your way up.
You are taking me back to the trauma of some of the big climbing days I recently did 🙂
Good luck Jon.
Slight hijack. When are the optimal times of year to do this, especially the more gravelly route. Strikes me that August could be a bit hot. May possibly too snowy.
I am thinking June or late September could be ideal.
Apologies Jon if this adds another worry to you!
Been to French Alps and done stuff like Telegraph&Galibier which I think is nearly 3000m total. I personally find long climbs way easier than doing equivalent climbing in the UK, just settle into a rhythm and tap it out. Don't know if you have power or HR available, but perhaps just try and keep it Z2 all the way up - may feel quite easy at the bottom but the fatigue will creep up on you, and if it doesn't you can give it some welly when you get within striking distance of the top.
Training wise just make all your rides hilly ones and do some core work off the bike.
I had 34:34 as lowest gear which was plenty low enough (French road engineers seem to disallow anything above 10%), I'd say the 38:42 should be sufficient but I guess if you have the option of lower it can't hurt.
I'm resident on the edge of the Peak District,
Go and ride Cat & Fiddle up from the Macc side and Snake Pass from Bamford over to Glossop.
Both are long steady "Alpine" gradients, about the longest climbs you'll get locally.
But agree with the above, the best you can do is keep on top of your nutrition and fluid, maybe a bit of core strength training - you can do a month of planking starting at 20" and building up to 3-4' by the end of the month and that core strength makes a massive difference on long climbs.
French road engineers seem to disallow anything above 10%
Apparently 9% was about as steep as they could drag artillery up in Napoleon's day so many Alpine roads aren't much steeper than that, or that spec influenced other roads in the area. Pyrenees are steeper, perhaps because lower military or Napoleonic influence? idk.
I am thinking June or late September could be ideal.
There's often still snow on the northern unpaved cols in early June but later in June should be ok. September is nice, earlier has lower risk of early snow and cold weather. But the weather patterns are far less predictable than even just 10 years ago - worth thinking on as we consider how to get out to destination rides.
Climbing - if you can ride short steep UK stuff well you can ride longer steadier stuff, it's just a Q of pace
Agree
I'll buck the trend and say that if you're happy with 10-42 around the Peak, you won't need anything more
Also agree. If you're used to shorter (but not that short by UK STDs) climbs and long days then long steady away Alpine stuff is not that hard. I find the descending more challenging psychologically (it just goes on and on and you must concentrate), physically (dodgy shoulder starts hurting and won't stop) and skill wise (lack of, trying to keep up with mates overtaking cars). Not helped by some grey haired Italian shooting past wearing a peaked cap and smoking a fag.
Simon Willis (Always Another Adventure) has a Youtube playlist on the Torino-Nice Might be worth a look.
Been 'training' for this year's etape having also 'trained' for last year's. For context, I am a middle aged solid back marker, not exactly fast. The things I've found useful are:
High torque slow cadence sessions, and also switching cadence.
Long structured sessions outside, eg 2x45 mins in high zone 3 over a 4 hour ride.
Fatigued sessions, eg long rides with 2x4 short max hill reps at the end
The last 2 really help, I find now I'm way stronger further into long rides, in fact it probably takes me a couple of hours to get going.
Plus consuming a ridiculous amount of carbs while riding
But the main thing is consistency, getting the right load I can maintain week by week.
Thanks all.
Cross training wise, I do an Olympic weightlifting session once a week, try and fit a cardio based circuit session in too. Core strength is pretty good.
The heat is a worry for sure. June was out for me as an option because of work and it’s always touch and go as to whether the higher cols are open (I was there working on Stoneking last summer and they’d only just opened the Angel). I’m mtbing in the Queyras middle of Sept, so late August it is… I don’t “mind” the heat (all things are relative) but I’m a bugger for not drinking much when I’m riding, which is a problem. Just utterly uninterested in tepid water, and I never feel thirsty as such, even if I’m absolutely dripping.
Laps of The Snake are on the list. I’d forgotten about Cat&Fiddle, although it’s a reasonable ride just to get to Buxton and back. Abney and Millers Dale are my go to local ish long/steady climbs.
I rode (gravel) to the coast and back over the weekend. 100 (pretty flat) miles each way, couple of hours doze on the beach in the middle. Weary afterwards, but more down to the lack of sleep. Legs and back were fine which is good. Biggest thing was how much harder work the bike felt with bivvy kit and 2 full bottles on - completely killed it’s “zip”.
I find alpine riding mainly a question of pace (assuming a basically fit cyclist). Altitude and heat will make it feel harder but if you make sure you stay below YOUR red line and are cycling fit, use lower gears and keep twiddling. Don't go for big geared out of the seat efforts, just be patient. You won't bully yourself up a big alpine climb, you'll hit your limit say at 8% then it'll ramp up to 12%-15% for a few hundred meters and you're walking as there's no opportunity to recover.
I live on the edge of the Fens so limited opportunity for hill training here. During pre trip training, I usually use big gear out of the seat efforts on the short sharp hills in the Rutland Alps and substitute long hills with fast(er) distance (100 mile plus) days. I also run which really, really helps the cardio. I ride with two others and we're all about the same cycling standard. I'm the only one who runs and it's notable whenever the road goes up.
Low gears and patience are your friends but don't forget hydration and nutrition. And, if the weather is horrible in the valley, stay off the Cols. It's deeply unpleasant up there dressed for summer in a howling gale when it's tipping down. We did the Route de Grande Alpes last summer and had a couple of bad weather days at altitude. They were nasty bordering on dangerous.
The Dutch have a saying ,the wind is our mountain. Done 5 Etspe du Tours, do long hilly bike rides and most important last hill into the windif possible.
They don't do carbon road triples anymore that and a reasonably close ratio block was my choice. Had a lot of sneers in the pens but always gave the insluters a smile as I passed them on the climbs.
Another tip most hairpins flatten out slightly, go up a gear or two and then back down. Amazingly how many people you pass on the climbs just changing gears.
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They don't do carbon road triples anymore that and a reasonably close ratio block was my choice. Had a lot of sneers in the pens
Back in the 90s when I was in the alps we Brits were the only ones on doubles (mind you that was 2x6, 52/42, 11-24). All the sensible French were on triples.
Thing is our French roadie triples back then had a 34 granny ring. 🙂
I used 34/39/52 with 12-27. 102nd on the 1997 Etape du Tour with that. One of the nice things about having gears lower than you need is a better chain line. Bottom gear rarely runs as well as second.
If you don't like tepid water try tepid diluted apple juice or somthing you do like.
Someone suggested getting out the saddle now and then. Try clicking up two gears as you get up and back down two gears as you sit down.
Thing is our French roadie triples back then had a 34 granny ring. 🙂
I used 34/39/52 with 12-27. 102nd on the 1997 Etape du Tour with that. One of the nice things about having gears lower than you need is a better chain line. Bottom gear rarely runs as well as second.
If you don't like tepid water try tepid diluted apple juice or somthing you do like.
Someone suggested getting out the saddle now and then. Try clicking up two gears as you get up and back down two gears as you sit down.
I ride 50/34 and 11-42 when lightweight road touring/bikepacking. That's staying in accom not camping.
The bit quoted about using slightly higher gears out of tge saddle is spot on. If you don't, you'll spin too fast and run out of puff/redline - unless you're a Pogača wannabe.
Go and ride Cat & Fiddle up from the Macc side and Snake Pass from Bamford over to Glossop.
Both are long steady "Alpine" gradients, about the longest climbs you'll get locally.
Holme Moss is good from the Glossop side as well, maybe. Drop down to the other side then turn round and come back over maybe. Or loop it with the Strines Road which is deceptively climby in a gradual sort of way. Easy to combine with the Snake and usually quite quiet. I'm sure you know this, but the A57 is quite unpleasant and intermittently dangerous on summer weekends in particular though not as bad as the Woodhead with its thundering artics.
Aside from gearing, on this route your tyres / volume and pressure can make more difference on the first climb, and some others.
Just built a bike with a triple.. I like it. Shame they stopped making them.
The bit quoted about using slightly higher gears out of tge saddle is spot on. If you don't, you'll spin too fast and run out of puff/redline - unless you're a Pogača wannabe.
Er, this isn't exactly a revelation, is it? Next we'll be reminding people to change down for steeper gradients or you'll spin too slowly and fall over 🙄
The bit quoted about using slightly higher gears out of tge saddle is spot on. If you don't, you'll spin too fast and run out of puff/redline - unless you're a Pogača wannabe.
Er, this isn't exactly a revelation, is it? Next we'll be reminding people to change down for steeper gradients or you'll spin too slowly and fall over 🙄
Bad dog!
OK but it is opposite here as there's no recovery once you're in the red. Fair point tho; don't eat yellow snow etc 🙃
The bit quoted about using slightly higher gears out of tge saddle is spot on. If you don't, you'll spin too fast and run out of puff/redline - unless you're a Pogača wannabe.
Er, this isn't exactly a revelation, is it? Next we'll be reminding people to change down for steeper gradients or you'll spin too slowly and fall over 🙄
Bad dog!
OK but it is opposite here as there's no recovery once you're in the red. Fair point tho; don't eat yellow snow etc 🙃
Bad dog!
OK but it is opposite here as there's no recovery once you're in the red. Fair point tho; don't eat yellow snow etc
I think I've absorbed grump from our teething puppy 🙁 Around 20kg of grizzly wirehaired pointer with a new found taste for the dining room table. Most of my waking hours are spent providing him with alternative chew targets, mostly unmentionable parts of random animals, but also frozen carrots and bananas, yak cheese chews, frozen, soaked rope toys, random solidified roots, bits of olive wood, the garden furniture, next door's west highland terrier etc. But, of course, he prefers the dining room table.
Sorry, a bit of a random diversion. My advice: don't take a teething GWP on tour with you, ever. If you must, pack the air-dried left-overs from a small abbatoir and drip feed as you go.
ps: my take on actual training would be to simply do a lot of long, undulating local Peak District rides at a steady sub-threshold pace incorporating as many long-ish climbs as you can to keep the climbing mechanics lubricated. You're not going to be riding big alpine climbs above threshold unless you want to explode horribly, so it's mostly about general endurance, having gears you can turn over for a long time - not the same as being able to survive, I did the Whitton twice on a compact with 11-27 cassette and survived, but I'd have enjoyed it more with a lower gear, though I appreciate that it's different from the Alps - and fuelling.
I'd set a reminder to drink on your head unit to flash up, say, every 20 or 30 minutes and actually take notice of it and obey. The one thing you can't really do much about in advance is high altitude, which I know I feel subtly from somewhere below 2000m and really notice above 2000m. I know from mountaineering that for me it doesn't really kick in properly until 3000m or so, but straight in, but on a bike, it's a bit more obvious because you tend to be working harder and often go straight into it without any acclimatisation.
Everyone seems to do altitude differently depending on genetics and fitness, while better than not fitness, can only do so much.
Just back from the Dolomites where I was doing 4000m days consecutively (on road). I'm fit for 50 but certainly don't do that amount of ascent regularly (once a year if that). My advice, given that training won't make any difference at this stage, is to start climbs much more slowly than feels normal. An hour later you'll be thankful (and still climbing). Eat frequently, replace electrolytes, stretch at the end of the day, rest. My gravel bike has 36 at the back but a double at the front (so 30T) and is fine for most gradients.
I find the descents much tougher - being alert, managing speed, staying in one position etc. Again, nothing to practise 30+ minute descents on in the UK.
Just back from the Dolomites where I was doing 4000m days consecutively (on road). I'm fit for 50 but certainly don't do that amount of ascent regularly (once a year if that). My advice, given that training won't make any difference at this stage, is to start climbs much more slowly than feels normal. An hour later you'll be thankful (and still climbing). Eat frequently, replace electrolytes, stretch at the end of the day, rest. My gravel bike has 36 at the back but a double at the front (so 30T) and is fine for most gradients.
I find the descents much tougher - being alert, managing speed, staying in one position etc. Again, nothing to practise 30+ minute descents on in the UK.
You could train this way ,I had 2 weeks loaded up with camping gear before the event then a few days off before the start. A lot of cyclists try too hard at the start, it's all about saving energy don't pedal down fast and brake hard into the hairpins. Pick a cyclist who passes you on the descent who makes it look easy and sit behind following the line he or she takes.
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