My favourite thing about my eMTB is probably no longer having to push up climbs that are too steep. Not that the gradient is usually too steep, just that it is when combined with mildly rocky terrain for the wheels to bash into and over.
I have such a climb on one of my rides, about 350m over 3km. On a normal bike it goes something like this - pedal for 5 minutes blowing out of my arse and sweating pints, stop for a break/drink, repeat that a couple of times until I get 3/4 of the way, then do the same again for the final steeper bit only now I'm pushing the bike. This takes about 45 minutes.
On my lite eMTB in eco (100W) I'll pedal it in 25 minutes with maybe a drink on the move. It's still 1st gear hard work, but it's at sensible cadence (around 70) rather than a grind, and I'm still sweating but not dripping into my glasses or sticking my jersey to my back.
I'm wondering if either of those is better for my fitness, strength, or endurance. I think I know the latter one is better for my knees.
Of course this climb doesn't happen in isolation, and being less exhausted I usually extend the ride rather than go home early. But I was thinking about just this climb. Not that have any focus on training - I enjoy it more without the struggle anyway.
I'm wondering if either of those is better for my fitness, strength, or endurance.
Yes, using a non-powered bike will win each of these every time. Don’t kid yourself that you are doing more on the ebike, you’re maybe doing a few more miles, but you are not putting in the same sort of effort overall.
Running 5 miles, or walking 10 miles? You could be knackered after doing both, but the running is the one that will help your fitness and strength, the slower walking is worth doing, but does not improve your fitness anywhere near as much as doing the running.
100w of support is a lot
it sounds like when you ride unaided, you push to your limit, hi heart rates, heavy breathing, muscle fatigue... basically a high hr zone workout, while on the ebike you are likely to be in a lower zone, effectively training a different type of fitness, potentially more endurance rather than short duration high output.
Put these foolish ambitions to rest, mate. The whole point of an ebike is you don't need to worry about this stuff - you can just smile, ride, and embrace senescence.
Senescence - awesome use of the word. Just the right amount of insult too
There was a post recently on one of the weekend ride threads from someone who swapped back from their eeb to a non-powered bike and found their fitness had disappeared. I think the only way to achieve exactly the same training load from an eeb is to work as hard on it, which i suspect very few people do.
Probably an easier way to do zone 2 type stuff if you live somewhere hilly, though. And maybe by increasing the volume of riding - getting out 5 times a week as opposed to going out once and spending the next couple of days in pain.
You're basically doing intervals on the bike, 5 minute maximal efforts, rest and repeat. Loo at any training plan for running or cycling and they'll tell you that intervals are a great fitness builder.
With the eBike you're going for longer but at a much lower effort level. Not in itself a bad thing, but certainly less stressful and so less beneficial to the body.
If you can get away with wearing trousers and a jacket on a eeb ride then you are not working hard. Ultimately you will never work as hard as the battery and motor is doing a fair bit for you. 100w is probably about half the average output of most riders over a ride. so how can you expect to compare
id say 100w is 2/3rds my average moving power 🤣 and i don't consider myself to be the worst climber
My take on this as someone who has owned an eeb for quite a few years but now hardly rides it.
Your fitness will progress much quicker/higher if you ride/push the manual bike.
Even putting as much effort in on mine as I normally do on my manual bike (which is how I ride it) I don't get the same workout*
To me I feel knackered in a different way on the eeber to my manual.
Eeber feels like I've been on a high cadence flat road ride so I'm tired but not smashed for a few hours after.
Manual and I feel smashed.
This is riding around five days a week, week in week out.
That's not to say I don't like ebikes.
When I take mine out I generally love it and it makes a change from a manual bike but these days It's only used if.
1. I'm really done in from riding manual bikes.
2. Everyone else in the ride group is eebing.
3. I'm hanging out my arse after a night on the piss.
*According to my Garmin figures
Not enough detail to draw many conclusions IMO, but both could help your fitness in different ways, one pushing your FTP/VO2 and one pushing your endurance.
It's possible to push your FTP/VO2 while using maximum turbo mode on an eeb, where you're getting ~250W assist up an incline. It's easier to judge if you did that by having HRM and/or power data.
Yea, I'd agree with the consensus on this one, both that 100W is a massive amount of power, and that there might be some sweet spot* training impact from it if you were careful and targeted it.
But the thing about sweet spot training is you're supposed to do it regularly, e.g. 2x20min in a ride and then 4 x week, the idea is you're not pushing yourself hard enough to fatigue, but doing just enough to get a training benefit, and can therefore make larger gains by doing more training.
I'd like an E-bike sometimes, but I know full well it would kill my fitness. I don't have enough time to ride a normal bike enough to get as fit as I'd like, let alone add dead miles to it! I think If I got one I would have to get some powermeter pedals to keep me honest.
*Z3; harder than normal just cruising along in Z2, but not painful like threshold work.
2 different types of training with different outcomes. Ideally you’d want a combination of long steady low/mid intensity rides coupled with some short and hard interval training.
eBikes are great fun but I'm afraid you're delusional if you think it's a magic hack to increased fitness 🤪
I see this "100W" thing differently.
With the extra weight of the ebike, 100W isn't that much really. Do some specific training, get back on your proper bike and you might get much closer to riding the whole thing.
I totally agree with others: a mixture of riding and pushing will be a much better workout than the ebike. Might not be as much fun though!
I'm another one that hasn't used their ebike much in over 18 months. I should sell it really (Orbea Rise if anyone's interested!).
With the extra weight of the ebike, 100W isn't that much really.
lol. If all the motor does is overcome the weight of the bike, then what would be the point 🤣
Never had a power meter so can only draw on Zwift experience, but 100W is huge. 150W = cruise all day. 250W (approx my FTP) realistically less than an hour (and would be destroyed). 350W I can do for a few minutes.
How much does your ebike weigh?
It would have to be at least your body weight to make that much difference
On my lightweight e-bike, on any kind of an incline, 100W is sort of the minimum support. My bike gives something like 80% assist in eco mode, so if the bike is giving me 100W, then I’m putting out at least that.
im exactly a year into owning my e-bike, and my fitness hasn’t suffered. But that’s only because I’m riding so much more than I did without the e-bike. I ride more often, and I’m riding 2-3 times the distance. But used ‘normally’ I’ve no doubt that riding an e-bike for approx. The same number of hours per week as your previous normal bike is bound to reduce your fitness. That seems like common sense to me - unless you’re absolutely pinning it on your e-bike and pushing just as hard as you did on your normal bike. But that doesn’t sound like the experience of most riders I know.
The other issue is, as I get older (I’m 57) I am starting to see it as a benefit to be able to reduce my max heart rate, which was hitting 200 on my normal bike. Now I can manage that using the assistance mode, and nowadays it’s normally around 160 or very occasionally 170.
the other thing, which admittedly is not related to the OP’s question, is the enjoyment factor. I’ve never had so many grins per mile as in the last year. I’ve never enjoyed winter riding so much. I’ve never hooned down so many singletrack in my life as I’ve done this last year. I’ve always loved techy climbs, but never as much as I do now.
With the extra weight of the ebike, 100W isn't that much really.
It's massive.
And the extra weight is about 5kg.
yup, as above
i scanned a recent Strava segment which was a 20 minute climb i did, Strava reckons i was averaging 105w (estimate) that was enough to a give me a 150 avg / 180 max Heart rate. Rider and bike equalling about 95KG
So 100w easily cancels out the extra 8kg of bike
An average rider of say 75Kg would only need around another 30w to compensate for an 8Kg increase.
Using the Wattbike at the gym a few years ago, I was humbled to discover that what felt like a decent Z3 effort to me was only about 130w. I ride a lot and I'm reasonably fit FWIW.
Having another 100w on top of that would be a massive benefit, but I can imagine I'd slip back a bit on my effort and might not fully appreciate how much the motor was putting in.
Interesting one this. Got my first ebike in November. Hadn’t done much riding of any sort for a couple of years due to hip issues
Ive done roughly 800miles on it since Nov which is way more than I would have done on non e-bikes over the same period.
Ive lost 3kg weight and now on my road bike I’m fitter than I was 5/6yrs ago before my hip issues.
My heart rate can work just as much on the ebike, and it’s much more of a full body workout than non e-bikes.
maybe as above the fatigue doesn’t last for as long and no aches/pains
Best bit is it’s definitely more fun on the emtb !
Ive done roughly 800miles on it since Nov which is way more than I would have done on non e-bikes over the same period.
Ive lost 3kg weight and now on my road bike I’m fitter than I was 5/6yrs ago before my hip issues.
You've lost weight and got fitter by being more active than you were previously? Is anyone surprised by this? 😀
Using the Wattbike at the gym a few years ago, I was humbled to discover that what felt like a decent Z3 effort to me was only about 130w. I ride a lot and I'm reasonably fit FWIW.
If you want to feel even worse, then remember that world class threshold power is roughly 250W more than that (~400W).
Pogacar, Pidcock, Saggan and WVA are literally riding everywhere as if they're on a full fat e-bike in turbo, all the time, with the limiters switched off. In fact when you account for them probably having better endurance than us as well they could probably beat us on e-bikes (with limiters off) because we'd be too knackered to pedal it even in turbo before they tired, and even if you could make the battery last that long. Then remember that at least 3 of those are decent MTB'ers as well and would probably beat you down the hill as well.......
I'm wondering if either of those is better for my fitness, strength, or endurance. I think I know the latter one is better for my knees.
I think the thing where people like to fantasise that e-bikes might be better for their fitness than non-assisted bikes is one of those weird fantasies roughly akin to the thing where tabloid hacks love the idea that you can get super fit doing five minutes of tabata intervals a week or that exercise is actually bad for you.
Ime e-mtbs are fantastic for recovery rides or, if you have an app that'll do it - blevo for the earlier Spesh ones does - using a mode where the bike adjusts power to keep your HR in a certain zone.
Thanks for the thoughts.
As I said, I don't think I mind which is better, I do what I enjoy, so just a question of interest.
I'm not sure how accurate the power meter on my eBike is, but I also have a HR monitoring watch which is roughly accurate, so one day if I remember I might try the climb twice with and without assist to see what Garmin stats tell me from all that data.
An average rider of say 75Kg would only need around another 30w to compensate for an 8Kg increase.
Interesting. The bike is about 4kg heavier. I could do with losing 4kg off myself, and on a short ride the hip pack I guess is about 4kg lighter than my rucksack.
If you want to feel even worse, then remember that world class threshold power is roughly 250W more than that (~400W).
Pogacar, Pidcock, Saggan and WVA are literally riding everywhere as if they're on a full fat e-bike in turbo, all the time, with the limiters switched off.
FF eBike would be way more surely. I can do 280W working hard, eco on my light eMTB is 100W, turbo is 300W.
100W for me on my eeb is effectively ~0.9W/Kg boost uphill.
For someone 21Kg lighter than me at 75Kg, that 100W is almost a 1.1W/Kg boost.
There was a post recently on one of the weekend ride threads from someone who swapped back from their eeb to a non-powered bike and found their fitness had disappeared. I think the only way to achieve exactly the same training load from an eeb is to work as hard on it, which i suspect very few people do.
That was probably me. To be fair, I'm going through an unfit in general stage, can't really blame the ebike. Even on the ebike, this time last year in eco I was using 12.5-15%, at the moment it's 20-25%
Last year, I forced myself to take the normal bike out once a week, then rebuilt the ebike, so it was off the road for a few weeks and my fitness definitely improved a lot. I then kept a mix of using both.
Ironically, I them had some health issues (TIA) and rather than staying fit, let it all slip.
I've always maintained, that you can get a good workout on an ebike, but it's mostly anaerobic. Keeping the legs up to cycling standard requires a normal bike
Is anyone surprised by this? 😀
Yep I get your point . However I wouldn’t have exercised half as much on a non ebike, therefore it has got me fitter than a non ebike would 😂
How do you measure psychological wellbeing too? The ebike enables me to do distances / rides that I’ve not done since my early 20’s and get up stuff not possible on a non assisted bike.
Stick some consistent strength work into your weekly routine on top of the e-cycling I'd guess might help. All-body to help with the extra weight of the eeb. Not neglecting single leg exercises for balance.
SL type e-bikes are definitely closer to normal riding than full fat. OP doesn’t say what bike they have but on my Levo SL in eco, the power may be set to 100w but the assistance multiplier is only 0.5. To get the full 100w available in eco I’d need to put out 200w.
The places I take the e-bike, I would struggle to ride the climbs. Pushing a lot is a good workout for hill walking but not cycling. Good for general aerobic fitness but not cycling specific fitness. With the SL I can ride all the climbs but still feel like I’m working. I also do 50% more riding than I could manage unassisted. I can also tell it’s still an aerobic workout, as I’m diabetic and can track my blood glucose while riding. Not had it long enough to see if my overall fitness declines though. It definitely did when I had the full power bike, that’s why I sold it two years ago.
I think it's all quite nuanced, as things generally are when people talk about 'fitness'. You can clearly use an e-bike to work on various elements of conditioning, eg: if you live somewhere hilly - puts hand up - and want to be able to ride zone 2 consistently, but still get outside. Or for super easy recovery rides. Or, if you're focussed enough, for, maybe cadence drills etc.
In the OP's original example, it's pretty obvious that spending more time climbing on a manual bike versus half the time on an assisted one, is going to mean you're doing more work unassisted, unless you're absolutely battering yourself on an e-bike. Subjectively, I think it's harder to do that because whereas when you ease off on a normal bike, it's very obvious, on the e-bike, everything's a lot more 'soft edged' in terms of pedalling effort.
All that aside, consistency trumps a lot of stuff with fitness, so if an e-bike means you're riding more and more regularly, then that's going to develop your general base and low level endurance more effectively than sporadic death rides on a normal bike. I guess there's a world where you can do your easy miles on an assisted bike then layer the top-end stuff on top using a leg-powered one for more intense efforts.
Not sure how many people do that in the real world, but I've certainly come across folk who ride e-mtbs off road, but keep fitness up using gravel bike elsewhere. Real world case: I battered myself indoors for an hour yesterday, 25˚C, threshold/VO2 Max stuff, today I want to go easy, so will either take the e-mtb and grab some scenery / tech at a low level of effort or flattish stuff on a gravel bike.
And if your main concern is enjoyment coupled with a general, amorphous 'fitness' thing, then just ride, assisted or not I guess 🙂
Normal bike will get you fitter. It'll just be harder for a while if you're new to the sport.
Normal bike will get you fitter. It'll just be harder for a while if you're new to the sport
As per my last post, it depends on exactly what you mean by 'fitter'. Is a world class 100m runner 'fitter' than an elite marathon runner?
Is a world class 100m runner 'fitter' than an elite marathon runner?
Yes of one of them is using an engine to help them finish the race.
There must be an opportunity for an ebike to be a great training tool. If we take the OPs climb then the ebike would allow for structured intervals by checking the support level between high for recovery, low support or off for high intensity efforts.
Would you pedal uphill on an ebike with the motor off? I have, to annoy my brother in law. People do intervals on bikes that don’t move don’t they
There must be an opportunity for an ebike to be a great training tool. If we take the OPs climb then the ebike would allow for structured intervals by checking the support level between high for recovery, low support or off for high intensity efforts.
Would you pedal uphill on an ebike with the motor off? I have, to annoy my brother in law. People do intervals on bikes that don’t move don’t they
That's the thing. I guess what it comes down to is how many people are ever actually likely to do that. I suspect it's self-regulating in the sense that most people who are focussed enough on training to include structured intervals in their riding in the first place, are arguably more likely to do them on a conventional bike.
TLDR: yes, you can obviously do all that stuff - and recovery rides are fab on an e-bike too - but how likely are most e-mtbers to do it? And if it's possible, but doesn't happen, then so what? It's a bit like saying you can train anaerobic power on a cargo bike. Why would you when there are other, better adapted, tools for the job?
This is a typical local ride for me at current fitness levels.
If I was at peak (for me) fitness, I'd make myself work harder on the ebike though
Manual against eeber.
First two are manual.
Eeber seems great for recovery rides.
Not so great for getting fitter.
I'd say "training effect" is probably much of a muchness you're expending less effort to get back up the hill, but you're doing it ~40% quicker with some leccy assistance, presumably that results in a couple of extra runs(?) over and above what you'd do with out the EEB, so the volume of work is probably about the same for a bit more ground covered.
Net result is probably that you burn about the same amount of calories, you're maybe spending a bit less time going anaerobic with your heart at an elevated rate, but the volume of work is roughly equivalent...
The best way to build endurance is by putting in the time riding, which you are doing, If you're really worried about strength training, supplement your riding with some additional targeted lifting exercises perhaps?
I guess the real question should be, what are you actually "training" for?
so the volume of work is probably about the same for a bit more ground covered.
Net result is probably that you burn about the same amount of calories,
yeah.... Nope, not even slightly 😀
yeah.... Nope, not even slightly 😀
You reckon?
I'm not an EEEb Fan or owner, but going off the time it's taking the OP to get up the hill assisted Vs unassisted, in my view just mean he's knocking ~40% off his individual climbing efforts, but doing more of them as a result, plus all the other riding effort in between climbs.
I'm openly a bit "Anti-EMTB" but I'm not going to sit here and tell anyone that they're not exercising, I understand that climbing on an EEEB isn't an effort free task, my point was simply that (as posted in the OP) he's getting up a 45min climb in 25mins, that's a substantial time saving and therefore expending less effort per ascent, but doing more of those efforts on a day out. This is of course the big selling point for lots of people with EEEBs and I get it.
It's worth noting that descending isn't an effort free activity either, I bet your HR for a run down a hill is probably higher than it would be descending or even riding on the flat on a road bike...
But like I asked, what is the OP training for? riding an EEEB up and down a hill all day is not bad for you, but if you're using it as training for playing tennis, it's probably not very well targeted. as noted above, probably a good recovery activity.
yeah.... Nope, not even slightly 😀
You reckon?
Based upon owning a Rise for a year and in truth using it not that much, but more than i should have, the difference is HUGE.
You (or I) go out for 2-3 hours and barely break sweat, the HR sits in Z2 mostly and the only effort comes when you really have to (or downhills). Even on the climbs at places like FoD you (or I anyway) are barely using the legs...
The only place i really noticed the efforts was at Climachx trail near Dyfi, but still it was night and day compared to the effort needed to climb it manually.
I'm sure i'm not the only one, i went into it with "nah this won't affect my......" but honestly it did. It's taken months to get back any sort of 'punch' in the legs and especially the HR. There were times i'd go 'longer' on the Eeb than i would on the manual, but it was at a fraction of the effort so i'm still convinced that the overall work rate was still a lot lower.
Don't get me wrong here, i love an Ebike and think for what you can do on them in terms of speed/laps/whatever they're remarkable. But i think if you go back to a manual you'll quickly find out what you've lost.
Is anyone surprised by this? 😀
Yep I get your point . However I wouldn’t have exercised half as much on a non ebike, therefore it has got me fitter than a non ebike would 😂
How do you measure psychological wellbeing too? The ebike enables me to do distances / rides that I’ve not done since my early 20’s and get up stuff not possible on a non assisted bike.
I was being quite facetious, but your post reminded of something from years ago. I was doing a sports coaching course at the same time as a friend. He was telling all of our clubmates that specificity in training was the important thing - want to train for MTB xc then do MTB xc, or related. I was more into telling people to be as active as possible - don't use the car, walk everywhere, take the bike whenever possible. Anything is better than nothing if nothing means not being active. That's effectively what the ebike is for plenty of people and it's a good thing. And any time on any bike will be good for mental health.
Net result is probably that you burn about the same amount of calories
That may well be the case but believe me I've ridden both exclusively for periods of time and riding just an eeber definitely doesn't make me fitter.
I'm also getting a much better range on the eeber now I only ride it once in a while.
The same can't be said for the other way around.🤣
presumably that results in a couple of extra runs(?) over and above what you'd do with out the EEB, so the volume of work is probably about the same for a bit more ground covered.
Yes, on this particular day I did something like 500m (1/2) extra ascent and 10km (1/3rd) extra distance. This was through sessioning a bit at the end in turbo to try some suspension settings, but usually it's by adding extra bits to the ride and doing them in eco.
I guess the real question should be, what are you actually "training" for?
Nothing deliberate, could do with 4kg of fat off my bodyweight though.
Impromptu experiment this last weekend - forgot to charge my range extender. Only realised at the start of the STW issue 67 classic ride - a big loop of Cross Fell and High Cup Nick with two big climbs.
So I had 360Wh in my TQ SL eMTB to last me 62km and 1500m. On a normal bike I wouldn't contemplate more than 45km and 1200m, less if the climbing was concentrated or weather was hot. It seemed do-able and my plan actually worked, running out of battery right near the end.
Assistance off for anything I can ride sustainably with my own power. Eco for anything steep and long I can't continuously keep doing and would wear me out. Normal for any short very steep or bumpy climbs. No turbo; if normal doesn't do it then I push, and this was very rare. Set some rough goals for how much battery I needed to have at some key points (bottom and top of first big climb, bottom of second/last big climb), kept an eye on it but not worrying or obsessively so.
The TQ isn't noticeably any harder to pedal without assistance than a normal bike. It does feel like pedaling through treacle if you turn it off mid-ride, but that's just because you become accustomed to the assistance.
How good training effect, I don't know or really care. I got some enjoyment out of the challenge, felt properly tired at the end but not totally exhausted, and my legs still feel it now two days later.
Lately my riding mate and me gave noticed that my legs are getting there as is my capacity to pedal, it's taken ages for it to come back but thanks to binning the ebike I can now actually pedal again.
Imo even though you think you're working, you're not working enough.
Others may vary, but for me, the only way I want an ebike is if I'm never going back to manual
even though you think you're working, you're not working enough.
This is my experience.
I stopped riding my Rise for a few months. I'd been thinking about spending more time on a normal bike anyway but the push was the chainstay cracking and having to wait for the replacement to arrive.
I'd ridden the ebike almost exclusively for ~3 years. Always ended every ride knackered. Focused on working hard in eco and doing long rides, it felt like i was keeping myself fit.
First ride on my HT around Surrey Hills I was done after 12 miles/1500'. It took a few months to get any sort of real fitness back.
Got to the point were I was comfortable doing 20/25 miles in the Peak District with 3500' of climbing and felt like i could still manage another climb. Managed a couple of days out on big hills in Wales and felt really good. Still nowhere near where where my fitness was before the ebike came along but felt like a decent improvement. Every ride felt a little bit easier and like I was gaining something rather than just mooching and having fun.
I'm seriously thinking about selling it and buying a short travel FS trail bike. The only thing stopping me is knowing that if I sell the ebike now, buying another one would be off the cards for the foreseeable future.
I like having it so I can go off and do big days out that I wouldn't manage on a normal bike, but having it has definitely made me unfit.
I like having it so I can go off and do big days out that I wouldn't manage on a normal bike, but having it has definitely made me unfit.
Likewise.
I'm considering intentionally leaving it off more in future.
I'm glad I chose an SL as it lets me explore options like this.
When I was much fitter, I only had a very quick go on a Raleigh hybrid ebike at Longleat back in '19, so I couldn't say if it was possible to get threshold+ training benefit back then.
But since buying one a few months ago, there are a good handful or so rides where I've done threshold+ intervals up to ~13mins long while using turbo 250W assist, where my heart rate has been in the ballpark of my estimated Lactate Threshold Heart Rate and beyond (~150-155bpm, used to be ~170bpm in '22).
I'm not entirely sure what my estimated FTP is these days, because I've not tried (but have been tempted to) fitting my 4iiii power meter off the road bike onto the ebike, plus while I've done a bit of turbo again recently I've not calibrated my Saris H3 for a while and I'm pretty sure calibration goes whacky through those heatwaves. I'd guess 180-200W on a good day, which then risks PEM... Far lower than 310-320W in '22.
The crazy weight I was back around Xmas is slowly coming off, now down to a fraction over 94Kg, when I was ~80Kg in '22. Without assistance, at 95Kg on my 9Kg road bike, it doesn't take much of a gradient on the South Downs hills I love, to send me north of 200W in easiest 34/34 gear... A gear I used to reserve for ~20% gradients and z1/2 climbs!
I've never ridden an e-bike but here's my observations about "fitness"...
I use a turbo trainer in winter and concentrate almost exclusively on shorter, harder sessions (as I can't bear to be in a turbo for more than 45 mins), so mostly sweet spot, over/unders and max effort intervals (z2 stuff is done outside).
Around end of March, I pack the turbo away and don't do any specific "training" though I do a mix of hard/short road riding and longer gravel rides ie generally, I'm not doing anything which specifically "targets" max heart rate.
I am, undoubtedly, "fittest"* at the end of winter when I pack the turbo away. So, my conclusion is that unless you are maxing your heart rate for reasonable periods of times multiple times per week, then you won't be training at maximum efficiency.
Now, you can probably max your heart rate on an e-bike but can you maintain that max/very high heart rate for a decent period of time on an e-bike. Probably, possibly, but it's more likely that the average rider would achieve that on a non e-bike....
* Fittest as generally recognized as having a better FTP (ie Watts per kilo, so higher power rather than better endurance)
