TrainerRoad - STW approved sessions

Sufferfest Angels is supposed to target climbing, certainly didn't do me any harm in getting ready for the Alps last year.

I did a sweet spot session earlier (Carson) where it recommends raising the front wheel to simulate a slight gradient.

Add in a hill rep session away from the trainer once a week too?

Yeah I've done ISLAGIATT (it did and it wasn't), The Hunted and The Long Scream so far this week, I've got Angels but couldn't face it tonight. Only get to do an outdoors ride once a week so gradually recceing the route - Wrynose this weekend...

The trainerroad "own brand" workouts seem to just be a list in no particular order with no clue as to what they're for.

Other than that niggle I've been really impressed with the Trainerroad package and the Sufferfest compatibility.

Any others similar to Scylla...but maybe a bit longer/hurtier?

The only other one I've tried is Emerson. Slightly shorter intervals but more of them. I liked it.

[i]Quick edit: Done Palisade too, which is like Emerson but with short under and long over instead of long under and short over.[/i]

Did Kaweah today, a pretty straightforward 5x10 at around FTP. Wanted something with a decent amount of time at FTP, with intervals of around that duration, and quite a bit of recovery. This fitted the bill nicely.

Anyone doing the Tour of Sufferlandria starting tomorrow? Not even going to attempt it here, not in the right place physically and don't have enough time!

Anyone doing the Tour of Sufferlandria starting tomorrow? Not even going to attempt it here, not in the right place physically and don't have enough time!

Would it be wrong to use the Tour of Sufferlandia as my introduction back onto the turbo after a month off? I guess it probably is but it still sounds like it might be a worthy challenge.

Only you can answer that question 😉 Probably not too bad but to finish the week I'd probably knock the intensity down a bit to start with and see how I got on. I'm not that use to doing sufferfests though and find the quick changes of pace hard to deal with at this time of year.

Edit: it's probably more of a challenge than it initially appears. There was a thread on it here last year. Compared to the number of people who start doing it, the number that actually finish the week having done all the sufferfests is actually quite low.

Still feeling shakey after a session of 10 reps 60 seconds with 3 min reco. Working to 30-40 seconds and hanging on for the last 20 at as close to the same effort as possible.

Feels much tougher than typical longer 3-5 min reps, AND 30 sec reps. I guess it's making the body do somehting it's not supposed to do; work anaerobically for longer than 30 seconds. I always did find 400m athletics one of the hardest events!

Tips for post-session recovery? I've just been sitting sipping a glass of milk, should I try protein?

Cheers mrblobby will give those a try.

I'm committed to 3 more Saturday races starting tomorrow, I'd have liked to have done Sufferlandria but maybe next time...

First go on Carson for a while, quite a nice short set of sweetspotish intervals. Getting the TT bike on the turbo was long overdue and thought this would be a good place to start. Blimey it was hard making power in the TT position, only got about half way though, going to have to knock it back a bit and build up slowly to re-adapt. Still good have a starting point!

Haze, how did the races go?

I've been using it now for a couple of weeks, almost exclusively using Sufferfest videos. The Blender and ISLAGIATT are where my strengths lie and subsequently they weren't so bad. I found Angels quite difficult and The Hunted agonisingly hard. The ramp ups above threshold while you are already at 100% are tough but I can cope ok, its the drop back down that nails me every time and trying to regain 100% effort.

Wanted to Introduce some anaerobic work once every 7-10 days now that CX season is over, to avoid "training myself slow". What better way than revolver. Recovery from anaerobic work is my weakest part of my game so its ideal. Brutal though.

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/705864-Sufferfest-Revolver

Well, I've managed to complete both Sweet Spot base programmes and will do another 8 minute test later this week.

I've started to really enjoy going on the turbo because of Trainerroad - it appeals to my geeky side that loves graphs and data. I even enjoy the pain it inflicts... I think I might be a bit mad!

I've definitely either maintained my fitness from the summer or improved it and hopefully that will be continued into the spring and next summer.

And the best bit about it is that my bike-hating boyfriend has seen the improvements and has started going on the turbo with trainerroad too, in an attempt to get fit enough to join me on outdoor rides. I've used the workout creator to design some short workouts to get him into it and used to being on the bike.

Great that is thread is still alive.

My PowerTap has broken so I'll be using virtual power tonight so I'll be interested to see how it compares.

Be interesting to see what you think. I think I need to be going a bit faster to do the same power over the course of the workout, possibly the turbo warming up, so that wouldn't be reflected in the virtual power (interestingly when trainer road ask for speed to power curves for a trainer they do ask for the trainer to be properly warmed up so guess it does make a difference.) Also find the virtual power isn't as quick to track effort, probably a turbo flywheel thing.

Going to be doing a lot more virtual power work now as I've for the TT bike setup on a second turbo alongside my turbo bike (and a set of rollers!) Planned to use virtual power with the trainer relay to view it on my garmin. Just want to do some long steady stuff to re-adapt to the TT bike. Though with blobby jr no 2 due any day now my turbo time is likely to be seriously curtailed!

Well that was interesting.

Tonight, due to my PowerTap failing, I set up my Garmin cadence/speed sensor and used the virtual power functionality in TrainerRoad.

As an experiment to get a good baseline I repeated a session that I've done a couple of times before to see how virtual power matched up against "real" power measurement.

I'm using the Elite Arion rollers with resistance.

I've been using the middle resistance level, (1) for all my sessions, so kept that consistent. Having done a little Google research it seemed that for my rollers and weight, (73kg), I needed to increase the wheel measurement on my Garmin from 1025mm to 1416mm , although why this needs to be done on the head unit when TrainerRoad reads directly from the sensor I'm not sure.

Anyway having done my session I can conclude that its pretty close, I guess its over estimating by 5%, which is pretty damn good.

Today's session with virtual power:
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/734226-Progressively-Gray

Same session with PowerTap:
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/561172-Progressively-Gray

One thing I will say is that the new feature to transmit the data back to the head unit, (Garmin 500 in my case), is excellent, this way I get all my power data recorded and can then analysis it as before.

Thumbs up 😆

Speaking about the turbo warming up, I thought this was an interesting overlay from Strava showing how long my turbo (cycleops fluid 2) takes to stabilise.

[url= http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2880/12464930614_4b639b68e8.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2880/12464930614_4b639b68e8.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/36927256@N00/12464930614/ ]Untitled[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/36927256@N00/ ]monkey****er[/url], on Flickr

You can see it's pretty much getting to the end of a 10 minute interval before it's warmed up.

The trainerroad "own brand" workouts seem to just be a list in no particular order with no clue as to what they're for.

Other than that niggle I've been really impressed with the Trainerroad package and the Sufferfest compatibility.

I don't think anyone has addressed this in the thread yet... If you go to "workouts" on the Trainerroad site then you can pick a session by zone/ duration/ intensity/ interval length/ etc. [url= http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts ]http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts[/url]

One thing I will say is that the new feature to transmit the data back to the head unit, (Garmin 500 in my case), is excellent, this way I get all my power data recorded and can then analysis it as before.

Do you need to tick any boxes or activate anything new since the installation of the update to get power recorded by a Garmin head unit? This is indeed be a nice feature to keep everything recorded in one place

Do you need to tick any boxes or activate anything new since the installation of the update to get power recorded by a Garmin head unit?

TrainerRoad Software: Devices -> Enable TrainerRelay
Garmin: Settings -> Bike -> then add an ANT+ power meter

You do know you can also export TCX files with all the power info contained directly from the trainerroad app or from the web site when you view a workout...? You can then load this into whatever analysis tool you use.

Don't quite understand why you would need to use the relay for this purpose. More useful for me when it's easier to look at the head unit than the screen.

You do know you can also export TCX files with all the power info contained directly from the trainerroad app or from the web site when you view a workout...?

No I didn't although I never needed to before my PowerTap broke.

Yes I find staring at the head unit easier than the screen, despite streaming various CX/XC races, odd, but there you go.

No, didn't ever consider the various export options in TR so thanks for pointing that out. Currently I export everything from the Garmin head unit on to Garmin Connect and then keep track of the power data in TR separately. No real reason to take this approach other than habit and not thinking about it before

I've just changed from virtual power to powertap. Is there a way to collect the power data from both methods on a single run?

Hi, just a quick question about the HR and virtual power malarky (which I admit I don't fully understand yet). My red HR line always seems to be above the yellow power line and blue graph (example [url= http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/731372-Thunder ]here[/url] ) This didn't bother me until I noticed that other people's workouts all seem to have the HR line well below. Does this mean I have the FTP (don't really understand that either 🙂 ) set too low/high, or something else, or am I just really unfit?

I think ftp too low would explain it but if that's the figure you get after the threshold tests then that's right as far as I know.

As your ftp rises then the yellow line will overtake the red.

Its more to do with the graph scale, the target power output is 133 on the intervals and 107 on the rests, as TrainerRoad uses one scale and places your heart rate on it, then naturally your HR graph will be above the power as you're working at around 145 BPM.

Watts/kg seems low, but only you can know if you're working hard enough.

Cheers, I'll have another go at the tests at the weekend and see what it tells me. I'm not convinced I did the initial setup very well tbh.

Bleurgh. 8 minute tests are [b][i]hard[/i][/b]!

FTP up from 183 to 195 though, which is 3.26W/kg. I've no idea if this is in any way accurate, but it certainly feels like I'm improving (if nothing else, it's training me to be good at 8 minute tests!).

Has anyone got any suggestions for what to do now I've done the sweetspot base programmes? There are no XC MTB specific training programmes, so I was thinking of doing the low volume cyclocross one, starting from the second base week (week 4). The ultimate aim is to try and beat a few of the boys at the regional short course XC series, starting in April.

whats the go to low intensity/recovery session?

just got over strep throat, been off 2 weeks, did high mileage in January, nothing in Feb apart from a 20 min FTP test (310) and 25 miles on the tallboy yesterday, looking for something to ease me back in

Dirty Rider, anything like Birch, Black, Colosseum, Baxter is a nicely varied, easy "Endurance" ride which should get the legs spinning again but not be too taxing on the brain or body. Maybe then some Sweetspot later in the week such as Peavine or Slide Mountain to get the legs working slightly harder but again without being too taxing? Not sure what others would recommend???

The Swedish Chef, out of curiosity, what was the rationale for "Progressively Grey"? Was it as a bridge towards Grey or other LT work/ bridge to VO2 Max stuff?

thanks DanW

The Swedish Chef, out of curiosity, what was the rationale for "Progressively Grey"? Was it as a bridge towards Grey or other LT work/ bridge to VO2 Max stuff?

It was a bridge to the more VO2 Max stuff I'm moving towards now. Things like 5*4 off 2 working on low cadance strength.

Thanks Swedish Chef, I thought that might be the case. Always interesting to see how people progress between blocks of slightly different sessions and I think I'm starting to get a grasp of the fundamentals of putting together a decent program which is a step in the right direction 😀

Working my way back through the thread the "[url= http://biketechreview.com/index.php/performance/supply/53-stripped-down ]Stripped Down[/url]" article on page 1 linked by Tom Thumb and Mr Blobby makes for good reading after tinkering on my own and experimenting for a few months. The idea of "raise the left and fill the right" is not exactly a mind blowing concept but some of the ideas on how you get there and make the most of your time was quite interesting in that article. One of the main things I have gained since signing up to Trainerroad is starting to think a lot more about what I am doing and why and where it then leads in the coming weeks. Again not mind blowing and completely common sense, but TR is a great tool to help actually achieve decent structure and make the most of the limited time I have free mid week. Thumbs up for TR 😀

Did the 20 minute test at the weekend, good fun and nice and hard. I'm not new to rollers but I'm looking to add some more structure to my training.

Started the 20-minute accelerator plan last night with Crag. I found it very hard at my tested FTP, hoping it was either an off day, or down to the fact that I'd changed from a nice light race tyre to an old scruffer to save wearing out the nice ones.

Also, has anyone else had issues with TR stopping and getting stuck? After the first 4 minute interval, my iTunes playlist starting stuttering and TR locked up for a few minutes. Seemed to recover but a bit stuttery for the whole rest of the session. Running on a Core i5 Macbook Pro, so shouldn't be having too much difficulty.

Looking forward to Palmer tonight 🙂

Can anyone recomend a good "i've missed tonights night ride and need a replacement" session? Just something unstructured and with random sized intervals, but with enough work to leave you knackered?

I'm too unfit for 'training' to be of much benifit, butt can't go out on the bike and do 'base' traing either 🙁

For those talking about the turbo warming up... I hadn't realised / thought about this before - does it affect anything during the time it takes to warm it up/stablise? I've just got a power meter so I predict even more evil in my training plan now. 😕

When using virtual power on trainer road it would get easier throughout the session or interval as a the fluid warms up and loses viscocity. Not something that effects magnetic/electric brake trainers.

If you're using a strain guage type power meter it's irrelavent as you'll just speed up through the interval/session to compensate. The power meter itself will be affected by heat, but it should compensate for that.

Did my first ever TR session today, loving the specificity the app gives you. Hangover this morning so needed a blowout, what better time to start a program with the 8 min test eh?

So, how good/bad is an FTP of 183 and LTHR of 151? I've never trained with virtual or any power before.

link to the workout?

Knowing that you ride a lot and race a bit... that FTP is rather low and something isn't set up properly. What does that give you for watts/kg? Worth having a look at [url= http://cyclingtips.com.au/2009/07/just-how-good-are-these-guys/ ]this chart[/url], gives a good idea of where you might be (or want to be!)

So, how good/bad is an FTP of 183

Sorry, only used a proper power meter so can't help set up your virtual thingy - repeatability if far more important than accuracy though imo.

Here you - I have only ridden two short firm races. I'm more comfortable with slow and steady. You can see I was dying on the intervals:

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/770915-8-Minute-Test

mrblobby - Member
Knowing that you ride a lot and race a bit... that FTP is rather low and something isn't set up properly. What does that give you for watts/kg? Worth having a look at this chart, gives a good idea of where you might be (or want to be!)

Oh. 😳

I wonder wether the dips - I had issues with my shorts, yes really - where I slowed/stopped have reduced the average. I wonder whether I should do it again without stopping to get a more accurate FTP or continue with this.

It estimates the FTP as a percentage of the average power over both intervals (there's an explanation in the FAQ.) So you really need to go full gas over both intervals for their entire duration to get a decent estimate. If you paused or eased off during these intervals then your estimate will be lower than it should be.

Hmmm. I did. And on the second I spent ages ramping up as I misunderstood the meaning of the white dot (I thought I was supposed to follow it).

I could do it again Tuesday I guess

Were you ready to puke by the end of the last one and so stuffed riding a proper bike in a straight line might have been a mission, and super desperate to stop for the last 4mins of each set that only will power kept you going? If not, you have more left. It really has to be one of the worst physical experiences of your life if you have properly tested yourself. Consistent output is key and experience will give you the knowledge to know how hard to push early on and the confidence to know it is possible to keep going when every natural instinct tells you to stop.

Btw - your privacy settings means no one else can open the link you posted.

I changed my privacy, it should be visible.

On reflection, I did feel pretty sick, was struggling with eyes shut, teeth clenched, and in the second one trying to keep the Turbo still and was dizzy after the workout. I did have to sit down after, no I couldn't have ridden a bike.

Obviously I'm just rubbish. Ah well that's what this thing is here to improve. Having a look through others 8 mins though there's plenty worse than me.

You do need to do a few of them I reckon to get to the point where you are getting a good result. Mostly as pacing is really important. Once you've done a few you'll be better able to judge your effort. I think you've done some TT work so you should be pretty good at pacing anyway. And yes, if you're shoes aren't covered in vomit at the end then you've not gone hard enough 🙂

Edit: oh and I wouldn't read too much into comparisons based on anything other than properly calibrated power meters. Virtual power is good for training though provided you keep everything consistent.

Appreciate that Me Blobby. I haven't ever done a road TT Btw. Years of social MTb, 2 years of road, 1 with a club this is my first year road racing. 1 crit and 1 Xc race done to date.

More worried the next 10 weeks is based on the correct calculations so that I will actually improve.

I did my first proper 8 min test back in November and thought I'd gone as hard as I could (I even did a practice test a few days prior so that I could get used to it). After 6 weeks of doing a couple of sessions a week and getting used to the whole turbo thing, my FTP jumped from 146 to 183 - and I'm sure it wasn't all fitness!

I definitely think there's a learning curve (I've just done my 4th 8 min test and my FTP went up to 195 - a much smaller jump).

Kryton, a few issues which mean things aren't as bad as you might think they are 😀

1) The test doesn’t reflect your true FTP for your current set up.

Lots of reasons for this! You said you were hungover and didn’t ride constantly for the 8 min tests. Big problems in calculating your true FTP! As Legolam says it is also incredibly hard to gauge how hard to ride on your first couple of goes at the test as well. You almost need to be conditioned to doing the test well before you start to get a true reflection of your overall “fitness” on the bike.

2) TR Virtual power may not reflect power recorded in other situations (e.g. racing outside).

TR vitual power should match up nicely with SRM or Powertap or similar but the values recorded depend on too many variables. I’d imagine they have calibrated everything to be reasonably close numbers-wise when using a road bike and tyre for example but using a 2 inch MTB tyre at 40PSI with the roller of the trainer cranked right in might have very different resistance and underestimate the power you are generating. Quite an extreme example but as most people have said throughout the thread, the purpose of TR virtual power isn’t to give you exact numbers in all situations but to give you a percentage to train too which is repeatable between sessions. Basically don’t change anything on the set up ever and compare yourself to yourself rather than comparing to others.

Also, even if using a SRM or similar on the turbo, most people tend to record a higher FTP when racing than during quite an artificial test indoors on a turbo. The feeling of riding the turbo and riding indoors being harder than a ride outside is well documented for a whole host of reasons. Also, big differences documented in riding against yourself vs riding against others in a racing situation. Again, not a bad thing necessarily as the job of the 8 min test is to set out how hard your other turbo sessions should be.

3) Even if all of the above were a true reflection of your FTP in terms of the numbers you get out, then the scale you are comparing to (Mr Blobby’s Cogan link) is a bit misleading IMO.

The Sorenson example in the link puts his FTP just under 6W/kg which according to the Table is a bottom end Pro- certainly not the case! I feel the labeling of the categories isn’t quite accurate and especially doesn’t translate well to MTB. The racing categories in the US also don’t directly relate to the categories people race in, in the UK too as far as I’m aware. I’d have thought an FTP of around 6 is a top level Pro-Tour roadie, mid to upper 5’s is Conti-Pro, low 5’s domestic pro/ competitive at Nationals, upper 4’s good national level amateur etc. We could all argue about these categories but basically my feeling is the Cogan table overestimates FTP for a given ability level and especially for MTB. I wouldn’t beat yourself up if the Table says you are just “moderate” 😀

Some more interesting reading would be [url= http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=95816 ]here on Weightweenies[/url]. There’s a top National level Canadian MTB racer with an FTP of 4.7W/kg, US domestic road pro with an FTP of 5.6W/kg, Danish domestic road pro with an FTP of 3.9W/kg so you can see it is pretty variable and hard to assign a number to a racing ability.

I’d love to know the FTP of a top UK National XC racer or Endurance racer and I would imagine they aren’t anywhere near as high as the Cogan descriptions for road racing categories in the US. Anyone know these or have rough figures?

Numbers from Emil Lindgren for his 2012 season.

Pro Giant XC rider, top 15 in WC races, his 5min all in FTP is roughly 6.5W/kg:

Weight: racing 62-63. Offseason about 65-66.
Lenght:173cm
VO2 max/kg/min: 84 (65,5 kg) 5min all in intervall.
VO2 max/min: 5,5
Average Wattage 5min all in: 420
Anaerobic threshold: about 180bpm

FTP is the maximal steady state power over an hour so a 5 minute power of 6.5W/kg is quite low, no? Roughly 5-5.5W/kg FTP if you extrapolate using a typical power curve???

Quite a way off a TDF challenger expected to have an FTP (hour) of 6.5-6.6 W/kg (6.8W/kg FTP generally considered "above human")and around the region of the Lanterne Rouge according to the article linked by Mr Blobby. So "World Class" has very different definitions in MTB and road. Not surprising given the huge money and support differences not to mention technical requirements between the two.

Roughly 5-5.5W/kg FTP if you extrapolate using a typical power curve???

Yeah I'd guess so.

Be interesting to see Nino Schurter ride the Tour of Switzerland/Romandie this year with the GreenEdge team, we'll get a nice comparison with roadie pro's. However looking at Jean-Christophe Perraud's, (a TDF pro), excellent but not winning rides on the WC circuit, it’s certainly not all about FTP values in MTB

It’s certainly not all about FTP values in MTB

I agree. Far too many differences to stick a road pro straight in a WC MTB and expect instant success.

Schurter on the road... equally unsure how that will go but MTBers seem to make the transition to road better than the other way around. Interesting either way!

Thanks for the pro MTB numbers too- hopefully it reassures Kryton that an off form 8 minute test when hungover isn't a barrier to MTB glory 😆

Thanks for the pro MTB numbers too- hopefully it reassures Kryton that an off form 8 minute test when hungover isn't a barrier to MTB glory

Indeed, thanks DanW for taking the time. I'll continue with what was recorded as a base. Over the next 10 weeks four of the weekend intervals from weeks 6-10 will be replaced with crits with my main event target fir week 10 so I will be tested / pushed before my next 8 week test.

Just FYI really, my first crit at the beginning of this month over 1:05 was an average of 240w albeit estimated by strava :-). For those of you that know hog hill you'll know the hill will have contributed.

Wouldn't pay too much attention to FTP/kg IMO, mine looks lovely according the "graph" but I'm still getting spanked by by boys with 2 stone on me, no good being able to climb when you've been dropped on the way to it haha! I'd exchange a few moar Watts for a few kg!

[img] ?w=640[/img]

Some old Watts produced at VO2 Max for some of the Rabo guys. Doesn't mean much in isolation but interesting none the less.

is it only the 8 / 20 minute tests that suggest an adjustment to FTP?

Yes I think it is dirtyrider.

Monstered myself tonight as my virtual power isn't quite in line with my where my PowerTap was. Pleasantly destroyed.

Unpleasantly destroyed by a 3 week old miss blobby jr here. Doing the occasional Black to keep the legs spinning, really can't manage much more. It pains me to watch fitness ebb away.

Got the hang of / am focussed on maintaining power during the interval levels now, often hitting 100%. Just doing Langille this week - 3 x 10 mins at 95-99ftp for FTP increase.

Although I do feel I'm working during the workout, I'm find this easier than expected. I appreciate that the 3 x 3 mins at 130% FTP don't start until next week and 6 x 2 mins at 140% FTP until week 7 or so. 😯

is it only the 8 / 20 minute tests that suggest an adjustment to FTP?

Strictly speaking, no, since it is possible to infer a 60 minute maximal effort from shorter efforts of any duration against a "typical" power curve. Raising the power you can sustain for shorter durations will increase the power you can sustain for longer durations (i.e. FTP, when talking about your 60 minute power). How accurate any of these are or how they relate to your actual FTP though is the main issue. The 8 minute and 20 minute testing protocols are the most widely used and accepted though so are best to stick to.

Some good points raised about it [url= http://blog.trainerroad.com/ask-chad-8-minute-test-vs-20-minute-test/ ]here[/url] on TR. In my mind the 8 minute test is better since there is shorter suffering but the blog raises the interesting point that most people just can't go hard enough in 8 minutes to actually reflect their FTP using the accepted calculations. Kind of a lack of conditioning and mental approach to the 8 min test for most people I guess.

For people who have tried both the 8 and 20 minute tests, do you find the two approaches yield consistent FTP estimates (in theory they should!)

There is also a big difference between just warming up and doing an 8 minute interval and doing the entire 8 minute testing protocol which has more to than just going hard for 8 minutes. The testing protocol aims to do more than just record your fresh 8 minute power and take some calculations from that.

So Trainerroad have announced on Facebook that they are close to releasing a MTB training plan. Frankly, it can't come soon enough for me - the cyclocross training plan is killing me!

Tomorrows session (help!)

[img] [/img]

which ones that? did black the other day, quite boring

Looks fun 🙂

Just trying to keep things ticking over here for the next few weeks until a bit less tired. Did Spruce Knob the other day, 90 minutes with 2x30 at 85% FTP, quite enjoyed it.

Dirty rider, black is a bit dull (been doing it a lot recently.) Quite handy for a recovery/easy day though and easy enough to watch some telly over. Birch is much the same but only 45 mins!

did 121 miles on 11/3/14 - 80 on road, switched to MTB for 30 then 11 home on the road bike, 121 in total, 9 hours in the saddle, (MTB miles were slow, usual Tuesday night group) - rolled 10 miles to the LBS today,

Mrs at work 3 out of the next 4 days, 14 hour shifts, no chance of getting out, 3 hours after the kids go to bed (don't have any Sufferfest, in 0.5Mb hell this week)

thinking some sort of recovery/light tomorrow, all in Friday, Saturday off, light sunday and back out on the road/trail Monday

recommended sessions?

I've got a rare weekend off racing and was looking forward to some long rides and chaingangs....instead my coach has put in a 20min FTP test. 👿 🙄 I guess its going to be a very grim 20mins....

So now I'm concerned about the 8. Min FTP test.

Last night I did Givens - 6 x 110 - 130% 3min internals. I'm at week 3. Whilst I wouldn't have described the hardest ones as easy, and they did demand a lot of focus and felt hard, I certainly wasn't overstretched and have nothing but mere distant reminder in my legs this morning.

Now whilst the rest periods are much easier than I ever did in the tctp, I'm wondering if this is set too easy for me. What's others experience of givens - should I have been puking?

Output was 248 watts @ 37kph measured by virtual power at 130% FTP.

just done Lazy Mountain, recovery ride,

found it hard to ride at such a low wattage with a decent cadence, FTP is 310, Tacx Satori on Level 5

20 minutes at 170, had to be in 39/25

any tips?

A "recovery ride" will never be particularly engaging. I'd use something like Birch, Black, Colosseum, Baxter or Perkins depending on the length you want to ride. They are nicely varied in terms of small changes in intensity for short "intervals" so are far more engaging. If they mean going harder than you wish then bump down the % to the zone you'd rather ride in. Alternatively, a ride like the one you did but with 5x 30-60s single leg drills at the start and maybe some medium hard (perhaps 130% FTP) 10s efforts at high cadence at the end can be nice to wake the legs up for the next few days of riding. Anything to help the legs get going again but give the mind something to focus on really.

MTB Training Plans gone live

again, thanks for the tips DanW - appreciated

So now I'm concerned about the 8. Min FTP test.

Last night I did Givens - 6 x 110 - 130% 3min internals. I'm at week 3. Whilst I wouldn't have described the hardest ones as easy, and they did demand a lot of focus and felt hard, I certainly wasn't overstretched and have nothing but mere distant reminder in my legs this morning.

Now whilst the rest periods are much easier than I ever did in the tctp, I'm wondering if this is set too easy for me. What's others experience of givens - should I have been puking?

I'm a recreational rider and have never tested my FTP, followed a structured training plan or trained indoors (rollers for me), but this is how I've progressed over the last 6 weeks or so:

25/1 > 8min test > 234w
26/1 > Carson > felt too easy, so decided to do 8 min test again

** Started Sweet Spot Intermediate Base II **

28/1 > 8 min test > 263w (yeaaah baby...who's The Daddy now?!)
30/1 > Lamarck > 'failed' final interval 4 of 4 (target 263, actual 243) 😳 😀

I was disappointed not to complete the workout on target, but felt that the failure was psychological rather than physical (not being used to prolonged efforts at FTP with nothing but an increasingly slow countdown timer to focus on!) so resolved to leave the FTP where it was and continue with the plan.

Next 6 workouts completed on target, so I've been manually adjusting my FTP while continuing with the sweet spot plan:

9/2 > FTP from 263 to 270
11/2 > 270 to 275
14/2 > 275 to 280
2/3 > 280 to 290
6/3 > 290 to 300

All workouts completed at or above target until Powell (4 sets of 3x3-minute VO2max repeats @ 110-125%FTP), the final workout in the Sweet Spot plan and my first at 300w...I packed it in at 60 minutes into a 90 min workout, after the firs 2 sets.

Again, I'm not going to reduce the FTP just yet (I've since completed Lamarck @ 300w) but I'll go back to Powell a bit more determined and fueled up properly, as much for the psychological boost as the physical.

As I say, a moving feast! If you think the workouts are too easy, then up your FTP 5 points at a time until you hit a limit...then have another go at that limit.

As for throwing up, I don't think that should be a goal! 😉
Givens doesn't look overly tough, not many intervals and plenty of rest between.
Powell has been the toughest for me, forgetting the attempt I failed @ 300 FTP, I completed it at 280 and during the final set of intervals I was starting to get light headed and see stars...nothing mental but enough of a signal that I was near my limit.

Lamarck is a good indicator as to whether your FTP is there, or thereabouts; 4x10 mins @ 100% FTP with 2 mins rest between.

Anyway, thanks for the thread folks, lots of good info and inspiration and TrainerRoad itself has been a revelation in terms of getting me motivated to train indoors while the weather was shite. Only wish I'd started in Nov instead of Jan!

As another recreational rider, I have to echo rusty's comments- the first ftp test was a mock exam in hindsight, no idea how to pace myself, or any way to gauge my abilities.
Things are a bit different now 🙂

"Training with power" has been a real revelation- looking at any given workout I know that using perceived effort/heartrate I'd having been backing off in the later stages, and justifying it by looking at the hr graphs. Moving to power means that I can no longer excuse easing up- it's helping with mental toughness, as well as fitness.

One other thing- I started out on virtual power- it's tricky to keep the setup identical from session to session especially if you actually ride the bike- tyre pressure and tightening down the roller make too big a difference to the effort required, so I ended up going the Powertap route. A bit of a shock- I had to drop my ftp by 12% to keep making the numbers, I guess due to virtual power inaccuracies, but at least I know that I'm consistent from session to session now. It was a big investment- I'd much rather have spent the money on some bling for the mtb, but I reckon that it's worth it in terms of fitness.

9/2 > FTP from 263 to 270
11/2 > 270 to 275
14/2 > 275 to 280
2/3 > 280 to 290
6/3 > 290 to 300

that looks like too much too quick to me. no expert though and maybe you started low....

that looks like too much too quick to me. no expert though and [b]maybe you started low[/b]....

Each of those 5-10w increases came after one or two workouts where I was able to meet or exceed the target, so it seemed fair enough to bump my FTP by a few watts.

Here you go > [url= http://www.trainerroad.com/career/missyclamps ]missyclamps[/url]

FTP up 10% having not tested for 8 weeks. Pretty happy with that. Partly a result of starting to focus a bit more on what I'm doing on the bike throughout the week (i.e. early gains expected with being new to having decent structure), partly knowing more what to expect from the test, partly lots of other things. Nevertheless I'd rather go up than down.

how do people mix the training plans with actual riding?

started the MTB High Volume, FTP 310, good base fitness

however did the 1st 2 sessions, then went for a ride on day 3, much longer/harder than the planned session, had 2 rest days and tomorrow i can ride outdoors rather than the planned trainer session, then Friday/Saturday/Sunday I'm indoors with kids as wife at work,

should i ignore the training plan as i cannot actually commit as ill be riding outside when i can, or do i sort of follow it substituting trainer sessions/rides

My view of that is, that during the week while I'm working, or if the weather is really bad at the weekend I can get 2/3 structured sessions in per week in evening or if wfh in lunchtimes.

Then at the weekend I'm either riding a crit/xc race which to me is a substitute for one of the sessions, or a club ride which is equally so in a different way.

This weekend I'll be at CyB, and I've already set my self the expectation that although the rest of the long weekend will be social pace, Saturday's climbs will effectively be O/U's for me - in line with my plan (week 4 Novice racer low volume).

The lack of activity on the thread must be a good indicator that the weather has been better 😀

So to follow on the theme of Dirty Rider's question... assuming more rides will be outside over the Spring and Summer, what would be the one main Turbo session you'd be looking to maintain?

Something LTT or VO2 Max based seems to make sense since these are the hardest to control or maintain for extended periods outside. More Endurance based rides are more easily achieved outside and anaerobic stuff is so short it is easy to fit in to outdoor rides too. Does that sound fair?

Interesting to see Ant White appears to like what appears to be a combined VO2 Max/ LTT session as the go to turbo session which fits with my thinking above.

My usual turbo training session is an hour, it consists of 2 x 5 mins intervals, a 20 minute interval, and then 2 more 5 minute intervals. One leg drills are in-between. The intervals are set at various power levels from a while back, which cause enough suffering to be worthwhile. They kind of mimic the longer climbs that occur in my more important races and try to drive lactic acid tolerance up a bit.