TrainerRoad - STW approved sessions

I don't think TrainerRoad would make it easy to transfer workouts to a Garmin, mainly because that would make it easy for people to nab and swap them and then avoid paying the subscription.

Fair point, guess I'll take the time to build one in Connect when I prefer to ride outdoors...just for the purposes of sticking closely to the plan.

Last Sunday I managed to complete my first TrainerRoad workout actually on the road, actually made it quite fun to train with a planned power session whilst riding through the countryside.

Fitted a 4iiii PM to CdF and a decent iPhone holder, then wearing a HRM I could run TR. I could even run Strava in the background so I could track the mileage/course when it all uploaded in Strava and Connect.

Largest challenge was to keep constant power output with the ever changing road conditions, certainly was shifting gears much more than a normal road ride but I guess with a few more TR road sessions I'll find a balance.

Can't be arsed to check now, but if I remember rightly, the mid volume just adds some low intensity stuff. I take that to mean 'the two quality workouts are the meat of the week, the rest is up to you',

Largest challenge was to keep constant power output with the ever changing road conditions, certainly was shifting gears much more than a normal road ride but I guess with a few more TR road sessions I'll find a balance.

I've found that the easiest way is to ride a harder gear, however this can change the nature of your cadence / muscular force requirements of the workout.

I noted my power was on average lower than the target when I tried to stay on target, so now I aim for about 15w over which gets me close to the average required watts for the interval.

Newby question. My Elite Direto came with a free month on Trainerroad so going to give it a few months to see how I get on.

Does using a low volume plan when combined with outdoors and Zwift sessions along with weights and running seem like a good way to go?

2-3 hrs of weights
4-5 hrs of running (half of which is one run)

I always use a low volume plan, leaves room for club/cafe rides etc to pad out the TSS

Yeh, I've been mulling it over this morning and it makes the most sense to go low volume.

Assuming there's no issues running apps simultaneously, e.g. Zwift and Trainerroad? Only one would be set to sync with Strava which is the central storage point for workouts!

I could do that via two devices if needed, Zwift on iPad and Trainerroad on the phone.

I run Trainerroad on my iPhone and let it control my trainer. Then I run Zwift through my PC and let it discover my Power data but not control the trainer obviously. Provides a bit of visual stimulation and captures my (albeit Zwift) miles.

Welp, back on this after a long damp summer of not riding my bike enough.

How many dark chocolate digestives will my FTP test result make me want to eat?

17

[quote=shortbread_fanylion ]17

Coincidentally that's also my target power!

It's meant to be! 🙂

Just finished the first four weeks of Sustained Power Build (Mid Volume) and was pleased to add 15w back on to my ftp 🙂

I guess that means this week is going to hurt a lot 😆

I actually found the TR protocol for the 20minute test gave me a worse paced test than I used to get with Rubber Glove. That said, I didn't perhaps go quite hard enough in the five min effort 😀
You've got to be pretty brave to nail that one flat out with the 20min block looming large on the horizon 😆

Oh god that was horrible. Thought I was going ok in the 5 min effort (coming in 3W under target) but then when I started the test I watched my target slipping away.

As always 10-15 minutes was the absolute worst but I made it through with fairly reasonable pacing after looking at the data.

I think that shortbread has put the evil on me with his magic numbers. I came out with a 17W loss on my FTP since I last tested in January.

Not best pleased with the numbers but I know they'll go back up if I put the work in!

Must be the night for it, I did the 8 minute test...thought it may be easier to pace over a shorter time, then switch to the 20 minute tests once base/endurance is finished. May be overthinking it though.

Anyway, unsurprisingly down on my mid-season outdoor test...but about 10% up on this time last year (3w out from my estimate!)

Grim though, roll on 6 weeks...

Surely the 20 minute test would be better from an endurance point of view? Also, I always thought that you should pick one test method and stick to it since different tests will give you different results.

Surely the 20 minute test would be better from an endurance point of view?

Yes, but wondering if I’m more likely to perform the 20 minute better after 12 weeks of muscular endurance...before the build period.

Surely then you'd be better off staying with the 20 minute test the whole year so that you can compare efforts from before and after the base/build blocks?

In my mind there's more value in doing a test that is repeatable and comparable to the other tests that you do than doing a one off that gives you good numbers but that you can't repeat. (not that that's what you're doing)

I thought about not even testing before the training and setting my ftp off of my old one. I'm glad I didn't though as the workouts would have been impossible!
As it was, knowing all the intervals were anchored to my correct FTP gave me the confidence to finish them all.

I find the first one feels like "crumbs, this is serious!" The middle one like "right I'm done, but I'll try one more" and the last one "Wahoo! I'm a training god to get through that lot!" 😆

Here's a related question.

On Friday I'm off to TorqFitness where I'll meet my coach and we'll do all sorts of testing, including a 20min test. That test will be done on a Wattbike. Seeing as my ftp - when measured at home - varies by about 12% indoors vs outdoors, how will I use the derived number accurately at home?

Apologies if the answer is " ask your coach" 😀

I don't think you can without knowing how close your power meter and the wattbike are to each other anyway?

My personal view on the indoor/outdoor/uphill ftp thing is that your ftp is what it is but the percentage of it you can realise in a given environment will vary. How important it is to close that gap is up to you but what ultimately matters is your performance on race day so as long as the plan you are following is lifting all your figures (i.e. Indoor and out) and not making you a one trick pony then don't worry about it.

http://blog.trainerroad.com/does-ftp-change-when-climbing/

Surely then you'd be better off staying with the 20 minute test the whole year so that you can compare efforts from before and after the base/build blocks?

In my mind there's more value in doing a test that is repeatable and comparable to the other tests that you do than doing a one off that gives you good numbers but that you can't repeat. (not that that's what you're doing)

Tend to agree tbh, I followed the TrainerRoad plan and noticed sweetspot bases 1 & 2 start with the 8 minute test while the build period (sustained power) uses 20 minutes.

As I said I may be overthinking it, have just noted in the foot notes it adds to use either.

There are a couple of articles on which test to use:
[url= http://blog.trainerroad.com/ask-chad-8-minute-test-vs-20-minute-test/ ]Ask Chad[/url]

[url= https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201794984-20-Minute-vs-8-Minute-FTP-Test ]TR support page[/url]

Interesitngly they also suggest choose 20min v 8min based on your discipline. So for most of us racing cx and xco the 8 min test is better, but if you are into marathons i gues the 20min test.

I have to do one next week as its definately getting to turbo time.

On Friday I'm off to TorqFitness where I'll meet my coach and we'll do all sorts of testing, including a 20min test. That test will be done on a Wattbike.

1. congrats on biting the bullet - you won't be disappointed

2. I'm surprised - I've always done the test outside with them - 30minutes up the local hill which goes on forever! Nearest I've ever come to throwing up, truly hideous...

How many dark chocolate digestives will my FTP test result make me want to eat?

More likely how many dark chocolate digestives will reappear after/during your FTP test 😳

Hi Adsh - how’s your health - improved?

Well as you will know, that was horrendous. I was told yesterday they’ve reverted to the wattbike after a fasted awakening as it produces more consistent results.

Well, I’ve learned so much my head is spinning. After an initial discussion we performed the LT testing. The good news there is that I’m apparantly very fit and have a strong aerobic engine. Then theres a sprint test within which I’ve always suspected I’m strong but got a number in excess of 1200w.

As usual for me, my FTP test was sickening and painful but smooth via a negative split. Coach was impressed with my consitency and both of us less so with my actual FTP. He remarked that he believes I’m capable of exceeding my current league resuts (18th Vet Eastern this year) without too much (relative) difficulty.

With that and the education, we think we’ve found the missing piece of the puzzle in my training and riding and next week I’ll have a plan developed to address that for next March. In additon my Carb and water habits were crap, ultimately meaning I’m pretty much riding Carb depleted most of the time which of course is affecting my performance. My plan will be shown to me monthly, to account for my varied - travelling salesman - lifestyle but also my psychology, in that making sure I don’t lose focus on the immediate.

With appropriate training in the right zones - which changed a lot, I’ve been undertraining - I’m told a significant improvement is possible.

So, we are targeting Marathons and regional races next year, and I’ve been asked to consider nationals for 2019, with a view to picking a target national placing in 2020.

Adsh has said this in this thread or another - but I’m amazed at the difference this will make. The only issue now is time and discipline that I have to commit to racing by changing elements of my lifestyle a bit.

A brilliant day with a long drive at the end but if anyone - like me - has taken up racing and wants to find some paths to improvement I can thoroughly recommended it, its a real game changer for me.

I'm back to health and am pretty much back up to speed training.

That sounds very positive. Glad you're a different age band!

Interesting stuff Kryton, would love to hear more about it as you go along so keep us informed 🙂

Curious as to why your zones were too low if you were disappointed with your ftp?? You retested not so long ago and saw a good improvement didn't you?

Torq use lactate measuring for Z2 so if you've got a very good aerobic base you may inadvertently be training in Z1 if you use the traditional FTP based method.

Yes - exactly that ^^ was happening.

So its measurement of my lactate profile which is determining my new training zones not just my FTP. FTP of course is the power you can put out for an hour, whilst LT threshold determines whether you are cycling Aerobic or Anerobic.

For me personally I'm not very powerful but I'm very Aerobically fit. So my training will seeking to push my Aerobic zone - upper end of zone 2 - upward pushing everything else with it - e.g. "raising the floor" is a better strategy for me as I already have a high roof.

Then the nutrition element will seek to ensure my glycogen stores remain available to me throughout the race.

FWIW I'll be riding a Z2 lunch ride tomorrow about 40w higher than previously, and my 20 min "sweet spot" sessions are within a hairs breadth of my FTP rather than the 85% some trainer road sessions have, plus I'll be training 2-3 days back to back to develop greater stamina.

Of course, the evidence of any success will be found out next March. Nice to think I can reach 18th Regional whilst training in Z1 😉

Ah cool. That all makes sense. I wonder how close Friels zones would have put you as his Z2 has always been criticised as being too high.

I guess that's a flaw with TR's FTP scaled plans- you end up with their power curve 😀

Another good reason for choosing Sweetspot Base over and above their traditional base too perhaps.

FWIW I'll be riding a Z2 lunch ride tomorrow about 40w higher than previously, and my 20 min "sweet spot" sessions are within a hairs breadth of my FTP rather than the 85% some trainer road sessions have, plus I'll be training 2-3 days back to back to develop greater stamina.

Now you will understand how I could get so tired on Z2

Enjoy the Z4 - 4x15minutes ? The perfect combination of intensity and duration to be true agony. It's a very effective session.

Sounds a bit like Sundays treat which was Juneau -1.
4x18 @ 88-92%

I did it outside which was tricky and they ended up being a little harder- you need a lot of room to fit 18 minutes in without stopping 😆

Now you will understand how I could get so tired on Z2

Yes, and I also criticised you for eating Gels during a ride/turbo session of which I'm now enlightened so I humbly apologise!

Enjoy the Z4 - 4x15minutes ?

This looks pretty good...

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/ftp-is-dead-the-sufferfest-launches-4dp-training-51020/

Been saying this for a while and I'm surprised that TR or Zwift haven't implemented something similar yet for scaling workouts.

there are guys who are really good at sprints who can put down big watts but struggle with long efforts,

*waves*

It will be interesting to see if it generates workouts that are fundamentally different than those based off of FTP in practice though.

Regardless of the hole in your powercurve, a periodised plan will still spend the bulk of its time trying to raise your FTP. The shorter power durations are the icing on the cake and should be specific to your event surely?

If the 4d assessment tells me my 30s power is lacking but my favourite races finish with a 3min charge to the line then what use has it been??

Will watch with interest but seems like the Sufferfest hunting for a niche.

It's interesting but I'm wondering about the incremental gain for the average user.

I'm the opposite of Kryton in that in general I can sustain long efforts but my short power is poor. I struggle with TrainerRoad sessions that are all about short power and quite often don't successfully complete the workout.

So let's say TR then scales those workouts for me down a bit so I can complete them.. Apart from the psychological satisfaction of completing workouts what's the performance advantage of (for example) completing 15 x 135% vs 13x140%

Would there also be much performance gain if my sweet spots are not quite sweet enough?

Having written this and thinking about it I'm not sure what the average user actually is on TR / Zwift in terms of where they sit for fitness / expectations. I know some quite fast people who have decided it's "good enough" for the price that they don't need a coach and others who have come to the opposite conclusion.

f the 4d assessment tells me my 30s power is lacking but my favourite races finish with a 3min charge to the line then what use has it been??

I've not looked into the specifics... but 🙂 I'd assume that the 4D assessment isn't going to tell you that anything is lacking as such. For your example, you'd pick sessions or a plan that are relevant to your goals/event then it'd tune the intervals to your specific characteristics.

Apart from the psychological satisfaction of completing workouts what's the performance advantage of (for example) completing 15 x 135% vs 13x140%

I guess the opposite example probably better illustrates it, someone who achieves the 15 @ 140% and isn't pushed as hard as they need to be as they are much stronger at short duration intervals than you are. For that person the profile would make the workout harder so relatively they are working as hard as you.

Are they actually tailoring the workouts to individual needs, or just saying do "this group" of workouts to improve your weaknesses?

Cough, [i]Hunter/Allen[/i] cough...

Not that revolutionary, i think anyone with more than a passing interest in self coaching and targetting typical xc/cx/crit races is already measuring 5s, 1min and 5min powers and comparing themselves to the chart of shame.

Also, anyone else wondering where they found a 160kg test subject from?!

Going to start turboing again. Haven't done an FTP test since January so I theoretically need to do one... however I'm not that rested and I wont actually be rested till after christmas as its mid cx season. So do I go for my january reading or do an ftp test unrested and accept I might want to ramp it up a few percent when training... I think I know the answer 🙁

Also, anyone else wondering where they found a 160kg test subject from?!

Having just returned from the USA i'd guess there.

Wow! Dr Andrew Coggan losing the plot with Sufferfest over on Slowtwitch!! 😮

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Sufferfest_4DP_P6456277/

So, I've 2hrs of dedicated consistent watts Z2 tomorrow with 40km winds to contend with. This has "turbo" written all over it, by omg the boredom.

What do people do, just watch a movie or something?

just watch a movie or something

Yup. Though tend to prefer a box set of something as the time seems to go a bit quicker. Or maybe a CX race on youtube.

Wow! Dr Andrew Coggan losing the plot with Sufferfest over on Slowtwitch!!

I struggle with long sentences... but he is right, obviously it's nothing new, which is why it's slightly surprising that more sites that build plans for you don't consider it. They take the prescriptive approach rather than the descriptive. Basically what Coggan says here...

Despite my efforts, many (including Sufferfest, at least up until now) have naively and mistakenly used my system to PRESCRIBE training, often via "canned" programs/workouts that don't entail direct input from a coach/direct interaction with the athlete.

Though I guess if you're serious about training you probably either know this or have a coach that knows this, and tailor your sessions accordingly.

Now Training Peaks are distancing themselves from Dr Coggan!

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/new-training-methodologies-road-ahead/

Yup. Though tend to prefer a box set of something as the time seems to go a bit quicker

I forgot to think about a DVD when I ordered my Zwift laptop ffs...

Can i do two hrs at z2 looking ar Zwift? I know the road ride will be erratic.

and the new 4DP training methodology from our [b]partners[/b]

thats when i stopped reading

Kryton, nothing to stop you creating a Zwift workout at the exact power you wish to ride. Then choose a nice scenic route but engage workout mode and let ERG control your power. Your avatar will be going slower up the hills and veritably whizzing down them but you get the best of both worlds 🙂

(Or using a suitable TR endurance ride in ERG mode and letting Zwift see your power)

@Kryton, XC races on YouTube if you can find one you haven't seen, by the time you add some pre-amble and podium presentation it usually come to 2hrs.

Terrible time of year to be starting chipping away at the mental reserves though - only so many indoor z2 rides a man can take in a season.

Kryton, nothing to stop you creating a Zwift workout at the exact power you wish to ride.

I can download my workout as .zwo and upload to Zwift for the exact criteria.

only so many indoor z2 rides a man can take in a season.

Luckily this is the last one for the next few months. It going to be windy down South tomorrow but if its not too bad i will go out rather than sit on the patio for 2 hours.

XC races on YouTube if you can find one you haven't seen, by the time you add some pre-amble and podium presentation it usually come to 2hrs

Thanks

Do other people fear doing an FTP test? I dislike the idea of resting for 3 or 4 days (in preparation for the test) and I also know it's gonna hurt. I always put it off. Is this normal behaviour?

Is this normal behaviour?

Yes!

Managed 90mins of Z2 outdoors total 2:20 ride time. So hard to stay in the zone in this gusty weather. The last few miles was so slow due to the headwind that I was on the verge of falling off balance.

Need another 30 mins so thats a 1/2 turbo Z2 later this evening, giving me a chance to play with my new Zwift setup.

Yes, I get nervous beforehand. Especially the one before last when I knew it was going to be a reduction. I think that makes pacing harder.

I think it's wise to do them more frequently so you start to normalise them a bit.

I think TR helps too because 20mins at Threshold is far nicer than many of the workouts 😀

On the Podcast, Nate often talks about those rides where you wonder if your PM is incorrectly calibrated. Tonight was one of those.

Did Picket Guard and it felt very manageable for a set of under/overs. I was actually able to recover 8-10bpm during the unders and my HR barely tickled Threshold until the very last over.

So fingers crossed, my FTP has gone up even more.

I'm switching from week 8 of Sustained Power Build to the final week of the Criterium specialty plan before my race next Saturday.

My FTP test to set the level of training for Sweetspot Base 1 won't be until the 07th Nov but I'm quietly confident that Coach Chad will have given me +30w in 9 weeks.

Very pleased with that 🙂

Sounds good, well done! I'm planning to get back into it shortly, from a protracted period of inactivity. Rather looking forward to feeling fit again, and losing a bit of lard!

Thanks!
I started off on MyFitnessPal for the first week but couldn't stick to a deficit. I ditched it in favour of eating whatever I fancied. My appetite hasn't increased with the workload though so I've still lost 6lb which is a nice bonus.

As I mentioned to MrBlobby, I'm a little concerned that the TSS drop when I switch to Sweetspot Base will mean I'll struggle to maintain my gains but I'm planning on adding in a Zwift race each week too so will see how that goes for a month.

Do you absolutely need to hang on to your gains in FTP if you are successfully growing your base though? I guess it depends on the timing of your goals.

Your plan does sound sensible though - if you can do the required work to develop your base but keep doing some top end stuff to maintain that, then it's a win win.

That's a good question. My hunch is that the sheer volume of Sweetspot I'll be doing will keep hold of it anyway. The Zwift race should keep enough top end for any Winter Crits I manage to do.

Everything I can find in their archives of podcasts/blogs implies that TSS is more useful for measuring progression relative to last and next week's workouts rather than the different phases. Hence why the TSS drop when you move to Specialty doesn't matter as you're now working on the icing whilst maintaining the cake rather than baking a bigger cake.

Mmmmm..... cake 😀

For the next 2 weeks im on a TSS of 780 😯

This week will be 544 in 7h15 mins and it's as much as I have the energy for really.

Even the High Volume version of Sustained Power Build doesn't go above 650 😮

Respect for tackling that 8)

I’ve taken average TSS for the last 12 months, added 10% and let Training Peaks prescribe the weekly requirement.

Following Sweetspot Base low volume, then padding out the shortfall with a midweek endurance/speed skills session and a weekend club run to keep things interesting. Later in base will start adding force reps etc. after the cafe run.

None of this takes any winter racing into consideration though, tbh I’d probably just train through unless it was something I was specifically targeting...or add some VO2 stuff and sprints somewhere which I guess you’ll be doing with Zwift.

[i]I think it's wise to do them more frequently (FTP test) so you start to normalise them a bit.[/i]

You're right. Did FTP test this morning and having reflected on the previous couple of tests where I blew up way too early, I changed my tactic and managed to produced an increased FTP I'm happy with and know reflects my fitness. Only a little bit of vomit along the way. 😀 Don't feel so intimidated about them now that I can see it's all about technique.

Out of interest, how much does everyones summer and winter TSS vary by? In summer I was averaging between 700 and 850 TSS a week but now switching to turbo/short intervals over winter I’m lucky to hit 600 a week even though I’m riding 6 days a week.

Hi all. I have had a search around but cannot seem to find an answer - is it possible to complete TrainerRoad sessions with a heart rate monitor alone?

For example if I wanted to do a couple of sessions a week outdoors without the ability to measure virtual power, can I still follow the workouts or are they all power based intervals?

For example if I wanted to do a couple of sessions a week outdoors without the ability to measure virtual power, can I still follow the workouts or are they all power based intervals?

Edit: Above obviously applies to any power based interval, not just TR workouts

My FTP test to set the level of training for Sweetspot Base 1 won't be until the 07th Nov but I'm quietly confident that Coach Chad will have given me +30w in 9 weeks.

Got bored of rest week and may be heading to Hillingdon with Nath on Monday so I jumped ahead and did my Sweetspot Base FTP test today.

Finished up on 340w dead for 323ftp. So Sustained Power Build lifted me from 296 to 323 in 8 weeks and my highest of the year.
I think that's a nice positive way to start Sweetspot Base 🙂

I dusted off my trainer last week. Started Sweet Spot Base LV1 and FTP came out at a whopping 1.86w/kg. I suspect it'll be somewhere close to what Chris Froome is putting out at the end of the 6 weeks. If it's not I want my money back.

I have zero doubt it will be mate- that's how much TR Coolaid im drinking these days 😆

CH you back on TR then? What about the Zwifting?

I might give TR a go again this winter, though my subscription has lapsed. Just starting to ride regularly again after too long a break with only sporadic riding. A bit distressing to feel so tired and weak on the bike with seemingly zero endurance, but a couple of weeks of daily riding should have it all feeling more normal again.

MrBlobby- done little but TR for 9 weeks. I do them on Zwift so it feels like I've been somewhere 😆

Im letting my TR sub lapse, but only becuase im coached now and the software we are using downloads sessions in Zwift format.

Having said that ive spent most of the time so far hanging over the bars staring at the floor in desparation.

4 weeks of sweetspot and with watching my diet a little more closely I’ve already dropped 1.5Kg...any adjustments in FTP to be determined in a fortnight, but certainly feel like I’ve noticed some improvements.

Could just be psychological due to the return to structured training?

Just looking at the cyclocross speciality plan.. I'm sure they've made the time for the mid volume longer.

Anyway, had an easy week so far since racing Sunday so planning an FTP test tomorrow then about a month of the cx plan while our season is still ongoing. I tried the ftp tst a couple of weeks ago and had to bail specatularly, if i've maintained ftp since when I tested last in January I'll be happy but am expecting a drop

ferrals - Member

Just looking at the cyclocross speciality plan.. I'm sure they've made the time for the mid volume longer.

Anyway, had an easy week so far since racing Sunday so planning an FTP test tomorrow then about a month of the cx plan while our season is still ongoing. I tried the ftp tst a couple of weeks ago and had to bail specatularly, if i've maintained ftp since when I tested last in January I'll be happy but am expecting a drop

Last year I was managing the Tuesday and Thursday TR CX sessions and either doing the wednesday session, or if fatigued a 1/2 hour spin or a 20 minute jog.

This year I'm not recovering as fast (too tired from work/baby!) so not sure I could do that with racing, up till now I've been still riding outside and doing a steady easy-moderate effort ride tues and some form of hard intervals on thurs, before openers sat, racing sun.

However I'm not racing this w/e or next and I won't do well at the race at the end of Nov (its always a grass crit) so am willing to be sub optimal for that in order to be as fit as I can be ready for the regional champs (assuming ours happen then which is still up in the air).