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think turbo drift is largely responsible
At MSP levels of power I'd also not be surprised if there was quite a lot of wheel slip on the roller. Power meter if serious is the answer.
He's 3.2w/kg. Hardly huge, thats less than me and I'm the least powerful rider I know - just being factual not willy waving...
Though it's easier to lose kg than it is to gain watts.
So now it's time to reduce the recovery interval
First intervals block is hideous. Personally I would up the power and keep the interval.
My winter never had the volume of Z2 from previous years but kept some intensity. As a result I'm about 15-20W up on FTP but my foundations may be a bit shaky. Plan is to do a couple of weeks Z2 training camp closer to A event mid May.
Managed 91% of my 20minute FTP over my 3x 20mins Z4. 700TSS week.
Nice work adsh. What's the A event? Something marathonish?
Re recovery, I had to push this up to 5 mins, which is too long really. I'll try 4 mins now then I might try upping the power, but for me I think reducing the recovery further is the way to go.
Absolute power is the name of the game in a lot of situations, though - particularly at the amateur level. You would murder a crit at 400W+ if you had the skills to sit in, crushing the 4.5W/Kg merchants, bitter tears of defeat cascading down their pointy cheekbones.Kryton57 - MemberLarge numbers there MSP
He's 3.2w/kg. Hardly huge, thats less than me and I'm the least powerful rider I know - just being factual not willy waving...
Or a dry cyclocross track with good technique, you would do some damage with 400W threshold at your disposal. Admittedly, MSP would prob need a tractor to tow him out of a muddy course.
Please post more, at 3.56w/kg myself i could use the advice 😀
In the UK absolute power is the name of the game in most situations. I'd love another 100W even if it meant a small reduction in W/Kg.
Although even with another 100W i'd still get crushed by MSP on the flat 😥
Was the Gorrick 100 but as that's not on I hope it will be Erlestoke 100 - 6hr. If that doesn't happen I'm stuffed and will try to get some miles in for a quick SDW or something.
Coming towards the end of sweet spot base 1, been riding the recovery week outside just to HR. Can't remember how my legs should feel at the end of it but definately still feeling training in my legs. Don't know if I should back off even more tomorrow?
A general recovery/training question. I don’t often get sore legs, tired yes, but not sore. This week my legs have been feeling very hot/burning at rest and a bit achey but not tired. What’s the difference/cause? Its more the heat I’m curious about. My training hasn’t changed, power and HR data still the same/good/hitting the right watts, sleep and diet the same/normal, I’m in my second week of this block, the hot feeling started on Tuesday after a split session (9 vo2 efforts in the morning, weights in the evening) and the heat is much worse after a 2.5 hour tempo ride yesterday. Shouldn’t be overtrained as I’m coached (coach on holiday hence asking on here) and follow a 3 week on 1 week off schedule with structure.
Hydration?
Are you coming off base and doing more intervals? That sounds like quite a training load in 2days.
No, been doing intervals since November, this is a fairly typical week so it shouldn’t be any different, slightly higher TSS yesterday because I was outside instead of turbo but then the heat started on Tuesday and TSS/IF was same as usual. Aside from the heat, I feel great, and I’m usually very good at knowing when I’ve had enough or need an unplanned rest day having been coached for nearly 6 years. Dehydration might be it though.
This may be a general question rather than a TR question, but is anyone else struggling to lose weight?
I'm about to go into my first race 2lbs over race weight. I'm not panicking as this year my racing starts a month earlier. I'm thinking/hoping this is becuase of reduced volume due to winter weather despite the intensity as I've now come to the end of SS base / build x 2 / speciality intervals since September.
With calories in I've been a bet less diligent than I should but on a weekly basis my net average is hitting my 2000 per day goal.
Lack of volume or just the physiological winter adaptation...?
I haven't lost any this week, and I've had a very strong week, good sessions, and disciplined eating. don't stress about 2 lbs. it will go in good time.
got to say I am loving TrainerRoad this year. using it with a Wattbike at the work gym, and the improvement from a turbo is incredible. finished all the sessions I've done this year, which for me is a big improvement. looking forward to racing this year now, after taking a year out last year.
It's still winter!
For me there's many more things than weight that make more difference. 2lb could be increased muscle. When I start to do hill repeats I get motivation to lose weight but now I want to be fed to do hard intervals and gain power
DGOAB - burning legs sounds a bit scary, and possibly inflammatory. Not a doctor, physiologist or coach but if I was getting the same sensations I'd be cautious with it and either stick to low-zone training or even take a couple of days complete rest.
Kryton - I always have the same thing as you this time of year. If you're less than 1kg over your target weight and it's still winter then you're probably on the right track.
Well I decided to stick to the plan last night despite the burning legs. No idea what is going on, but hit my 5min threshold-vo2 efforts spot on, no lactic acid build up or pain during the efforts and hardly breathing hard at all. Post session legs hurt to foam roller (don't normally) but felt better after riding. Very odd but not complaining.
Kryton, yes I'm struggling with dropping a little too. Having ditched 1-2 turbo session mid week in favour of riding outside that is beginning to help.
@Kryton,
For me, my weight never shifts much more than a couple of kg anyway, but never actually comes down to 'race weight' until I start to get in some longer interval sessions (3x20@SS, 2x20@LT) combined with the weekend rides getting a little longer.
Of course that may or may not be training related, could be seasonal as those sessions always start around the same time of year.
I wouldn't worry about it too much, as from what you've posted your training and numbers have gone quite well over the winter.
My ftp didn't go up, my hill climbing and vo2max medals in TR improved, and this happened:
Eye bleach alert...
Gonna have to follow you to see that as your accounts private.
Back on the bike after 10 days running including a cross country race whilst I was in the UK.
Felt pretty good but I'm finding the 90 minute sessions damn hard to do at 100%.
Its a pic of my quads, which seems to have developed extremely well. Ill spare you...
Re weight, im inclined to agree then. I think once the longer 3000cal weekend rides kick in ill be able to shift the last bit.
As the default training whinge thread... annoyingly poor week here, not enough volume even for an easier week. Kids being home for half term and them and mrs B being full of cold, and rather a busy spell at work, have all disrupted my routine. Even had to cut short last nights ride with a light charging fail that had me riding the last half hour home to the light of my iPhone torch!
Back on it with a vengance next week 😈
Oh and Kryton, get the razor out and sort out those legs!
The 6x7 makes much more sense at 20min power rather than FTP. Makes it a very similar session to MrBlobby's 4x8 which I can confirm is brutal
Taken me a while to get my head around the 4x8 sessions. Think hard sessions are a real mental game and you can often be beaten by them before you even start. Got the recovery down to 4 minutes and I was almost tempted to have a crack at a 5th interval today!
Got this week and next of 4x8, then it'll be longer outdoor race pace efforts.
Got Lamarck on the schedule tomorrow, 4 * 10 at bang on FTP with 2 minutes recovery. IF of 0.92, nice.
Agree that mentally I find these sessions way harder than the VO2 max ones. Ooh well just knuckle down and get it done.
Starting to firm up the races now for April and May which is helping with the motivation, as is the ever increasing amount of daylight over here.
What you up to now Chef, more XC?
Yup, back on the bike after a short flirtation with running last year.
Couple of marathon distance events early on and if they go to plan then i'll commit to the national series with an aim of placing top 10 in vets 40.
4th week of my 6x7. Same power, lower HR and less pain. Need to retest and recalibrate post rest week. Thought I would have to flunk the last session but beyond aches was power once I got going. Ate like a pig so really couldn't face failure.
TR's sweetspot base II seems a bit of a misnomer - plenty of those sessions (e.g. Lamarck) are v hard.The Swedish Chef - MemberGot Lamarck on the schedule tomorrow, 4 * 10 at bang on FTP with 2 minutes recovery. IF of 0.92, nice.
Agree that mentally I find these sessions way harder than the VO2 max ones. Ooh well just knuckle down and get it done.
It's all good stuff, but I like sweetspot sessions because I can do them whenever, even if I'm feeling tired or out of sorts, without it being a big deal. Doubt I'd get through Lamarck if I wasn't feeling good beforehand.
adsh, be interesting to hear what happens when you re-test.
I've likely made some progress, having failed at the first 7 attempts at this session I'm now managing them just above target power with the right length of recovery. Hopefully this translates to overall gains and not just session specific! Some of it is certainly getting comfortable with the intensity again after a winter of much plodding.
I think this is going to be my last cycle of these 8 min sessions. I'm tempted to do a round or two of 5 min based sessions next (something like 6 x 5 @ 110%) before a move to longer, more specific, race pace efforts.
If I can ever recover!Supposed to do 90minutes tempo tonight. 2 large slices of toast later and I'm on here with my eyelids drooping. Must not nap......
I did Errickson this morning, as part of the sweetspot base plan.
as with the last two workouts my HR hasn't got up to sweetspot range, until I whacked it up to 110%.
as such, still feeling good, so going to go and do gendarmes 30 now. some nice short sweet VO2 max efforts....
If I can ever recover!Supposed to do 90minutes tempo tonight. 2 large slices of toast later and I'm on here with my eyelids drooping. Must not nap.....
Recovery is tricky when doing those sorts of sessions. When not doing the hard session I'm pretty much only doing z1 or z2. Don't do much at all in z3 or z4. Even bumping up the hours a bit I've had to take a hit on weekly TSS (I'm on about 600 off 12 hrs.)
(Though I did have quite a FTP setting hike early Jan that's taken a while to get use to, 700 TSS suddenly became 600 TSS 😐 )
gendarmes 30
Have fun warton, that session is anathema to me!
Well I made it through Lamarck but had to dig deep mentally.
30 minute spin tomorrow than back at it Saturday before a week of trying to make the best of it in hotel gyms halfway across the world.
gendarmes 30
Have fun warton, that session is anathema to me!
Didn't actually find it that hard. I think I need another FTP tbh.
wrong thread
Well I couldn't face a proper session so did 2hrs on the rollers to Danny Howard alternating Z2/3 according to tracks.
Didn't actually find it that hard. I think I need another FTP tbh.
Could just be the problem with a workout that bases your 30 second effort capacity on an estimate of your 60 minute max based on a fairly uncontrolled 20 minute (or 2x 8 minute) max field test effort. Or you need to do another test 🙂
Massive motivation struggles here. Cracked on Huffaker on Tuesday, was within a whisker of cracking on Donner last night. Riding outside over the w/e and then having a taper week (not that I've really be training enough to taper) before race next sunday. Am hopin race will kick my motivation into gear. If not I'm giving TR a rest till autumn and jsut doing what i can outside. Any suggestions of other similar simplistic training plans (HR only) that I can use outside? IF not I'll make a note of the rough form of the TR plans and replicate that as best I can
Ride outdoors! Spend a few days unstructured just riding for the fun of it.
Both those look tough sessions, especially if tired and not up for it.
Any riding is better than no riding. If TR saps your motivation to the extent you don't want to ride then do another sort of ride instead.
Things to try - Strava hill smash fest, hill repeats, ride out for as long and fast as you can then have to ride back.
My current motivator is SS - it's a hoot.
Definitely head outside.
I'm doing the low volume plans as it leaves me the chance to get out on the bike a rip it up once or twice a week to keep my head and technical skills in shape.
I'd be fitter doing the mid volume plan but I know that I'd never be motivated enough so this seems like the best compromise.
Both those look tough sessions, especially if tired and not up for it.
It's funny, I always think the sweet spot base plans are 'easy' but actually there's a fair amount of stress hidden in there.
Outside riding it is for a while - but maybe not today, it's rank outside!
Just did Truuli as a loosener for tomorrows race. It felt too easy but with that im off plan, only repeating the last few weeks of build or speciality including a long ride at the weekend, deferring to outdoors where possible between monthly races. .
Mid week TT or from April-July XC races will replace the turbo.
Whoop.
East Vidette.
Just ugh!
Deerhorn - Another sweetspot / Over-under type workout that was surprisingly tough.
Yup, over and unders are hard work, more so than simply keeping at one power level, still I think they work well and much better replicate actual XC racing.
In China on business at the moment and trying to perform sessions on random hotel gym bikes, with varying success.
First fail of the season. Rest week after hard 3 week block that's left it's mark with cramping at night and some DOMS. My rest weeks have one interval session. Aimed to do 3x20minutes high sweetspot this morning, not feeling it while warming up so modified to one 20minute FTP effort. At 10minutes power drained away (and I had eaten beforehand) and I warmed down. S'pose it's good I'm empty but I hate failure.
Doesn't sound like real failure to me. 20 minutes at FTP isn't really resting, is it? May not be a high volume, but if you're that fatigued from the last three weeks then that does mean you've really been putting the effort in. Maybe lower intensity maintenance for the week would be more effective.
For a bit of sanity regarding this, its worth reading the first 20 pages of Friels book again. It address age, ability motivation and experience. Its a good reminder of the expectations we have of ourselves, our age and experience and how that effects us.
After bemoaning my weekend race results and on Tuesday struggling through a 5x 6mins @ 105% effort, its pretty obvious i was tired with 4 months training in my legs, 48hrs from a race effort and am only 3 years - still physiologically developing says Friel - into racing, pitting myself in that state against people who know far better and have more experience that I. Common sense says that a 45yo who started serious racing and training at 42 is way behind the curve of someone training and racing for the last 20 years in the same category.
Ive reset my profiled "low ability high motivation tendancy to anxiously overtrain" mental goals from "being the best i can at every race" to "trying to imorove my performance every year".
Cest la vie.
on a similar note, I've reser sims even further to just enjoying myself this year as I don't have time to train and (I now realise) am not getting enough sleep to recover properly. Even though I'm not as fit, part of me wonders if I'll do better as I don't feel any self-made pressure.
With that said - Bird, smashed!
Well done! I was going to do a session this evening, but I feel tired so I'm going to drink wine instead.
Spent the last 8 days in China using TrainerRoad on my Android phone. It's been reading my Ant+ HR strap and I'm able to use the hotel gym bikes that have power to match my plan!
Managed to string together a couple of good sessions as well as a number of 45 minute recovery rides. Much better than I'd expected.
One more hotel night to go then I can look at kicking off a build block when I'm back home.
I did Morgan 30 to supplement week 4 of sweetspot base, on Thursday evening.
my god it was tough, managed to get through it though
So the plan calls for 1:30 of Kaweah (5x10 mins at 95% of ftp with 5 minutes rest). I don't have time for 1hour 30 so am looking for an hour.
Choices I can find are Marion (3x12 with 5 minute rest) or Rogers (4x7 with 7 minutes at 50% ftp for recovery).
Much of a muchness? Any others people might recommend?
Lamarck or Darwin would be close.
I kicked off short power build this week and managed Grassy Ridge tonight.
Darwin - 4x10 with 3 minutes inbetween.. ouch or Lamarck - 4x10@FTP with 2 minutes inbetween. 😯 Sometime ignorance is bliss. Wish I hadn't asked....
Lamarck's a bugger.
Did Gould tonight. Oufff!
So I just did a search for the word "plateau" in the TR Blog, which revealed 2 pieces of insight I'd not put into practise before:
A) If you can't complete a sub threshold workout, dont move on to the next workout. Do it again until you can. Otherwise you are continully working up to harder workouts, wont complete them and wont progress. Just repeat, complete, and progress at a slower rate.
B) For VO2max steadily lower the intensity but not below 110% FTP, and do it again. Now continue the vo2max components plan at the reduction you can - just - complete, becuase everyones VO2max levels are different.
http://blog.trainerroad.com/how-to-break-through-a-fitness-plateau/
Unfortnately that mean Shortoff +1 again for me on Monday. I always struggle with vo2max over about 2mins.
Has anyone previously completed sweet spot Base and able to share hoe it affected their fitness later on?
Currently near beginning of the 2nd 6 week block and the intensity is much higher than what I've been used to doing previous years so concerned I'll be tired once I get to the build phases!
@Jase. Roughly how old are you?
Depending on age rest becomes ever more important and so the TrainerRoad rest weeks should be taking it easy and not an excuse to ride hard the rest of the time.
I've always found the programs are well designed and so if you follow them fairly faithfully then shouldn't get to tired and a lot fitter. It's when try to add in other fun stuff as well that risk of over doing it appears.
The build phases are eight weeks long but have a rest week in the middle.
Darwin ended up being my choice for the evening and it was reasonably grim.
@ jase
The last week of SS base is a recovery week, so you should go into the build phase, which starts with an FTP test, quite well rested. That's the theory.
I assume that you're doing the low volume plan?
Are you doing anything else like gym work, football, normal riding that is causing excess fatigue?
I found the 90 minutes sessions hard in the second block, and there is a subtle move towards higher intensity VO2max work in that plan too.
I've done their SS base a few times now and do feel that that by concentrating on the specific aspects of base fitness I can then move on to the more VO2max work and really push myself.
Good work there sweaman2 😀
I'm 43, doing the high volume but as soon as clocks change will switch to riding outside so won't actually complete Base 2.
Bit of a general question...
New to TR and I'm currently in week 5 of General Build - Low Volume (didn't do a base plan as I figured I had a reasonable base for a recreational MTBer already), finding it quite useful and thinking about what to move on to once I finish this 8 weeks.
Not a racer - been riding MTB for 20-odd years though and just looking to build some better structured fitness for general MTBing (trail centres, natural stuff in Wales / Peak / Lakes).
Hopefully, I'll start to get more proper rides in as the weather and light improve, but any suggestions as to a good TR plan to move on to next that will 'fill in the gaps'?
Interesting day today. after racing at the weekend, and finishing the base phase I had an 8 minute test to do today. i was wrecked, but gave it a go, and actually finished it quite well.
jumped from 211 FTP to 247. assuming because I didn't go as hard as i could the first time. I think this build phase is going to be tough though. sticking to low volume this phase, as I will be racing as well.
Nice work there Warton, that's a significant gain in FTP, be interesting to know how hard you find the sessions now in comparison to your previous plan
@colournoise , the TR podcast, (excellent listen), advice would be to say do low volume base. Its not traditional base and is hard work based on sweet spot intervals. As you're not racing then these sessions would give you the most benefit. Else marathon XC plan or rolling road race seem good general plans for long days on the bike.
just about completed with the 20minute power accelerator (archived plan). which is the best 'base' for me over the winter months.
I definately felt stronger this weekend; 4 days of welsh hills. 😀
20 minute test on sunday. what workout(s) for thursday/ friday to prep for the test. Thinking sphinx or lamarck. Any thoughts?
Lamarck and Sphinx are too tough for a pre-ftp test workout to my mind. I'd be looking for something more sweetspot; less prep and more rest 🙂
@swedishchef, yeah looked at some of the numbers i need to hit for the first V02 max session on Thursday, and they are 'interesting' 🙂
The Swedish Chef - Member
@colournoise , the TR podcast, (excellent listen), advice would be to say do low volume base. Its not traditional base and is hard work based on sweet spot intervals. As you're not racing then these sessions would give you the most benefit. Else marathon XC plan or rolling road race seem good general plans for long days on the bike.
Cheers. Will look at those.
Currently on an enforced week off TR thanks to bashing my knee stupidly hard climbing into the van yesterday and it coming up like a egg. Now very stiff and sore (bending it enough to get over the top of a pedal stroke is deeply unpleasant in a that's-doing-more-damage-than-good way) so I think best to lay off pedalling completely for a few days.
TR releasesd a big update on their plans earlier this week.
Build seems to have got quite a makeover.
http://blog.trainerroad.com/training-plans-update-newly-revised-build-plans/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+trainerroad+%28TrainerRoad+Blog%29
If you're on the build plan then you'll need to stop that plan and start the new one.
First 3 interval clock session. Much pain. Gaps are getting of the bike (in order, stretching, get gel for later and nearly puking)
[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3698/33530707636_9e3fc4a91e_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3698/33530707636_9e3fc4a91e_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/T5ZDbU ]Clock[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/68424083@N07/ ][/url], on Flickr
Clock session?
15s, 30s, 1min, 2mins, 3mins,2 mins,1 min, 30s, 15s flat out hard as with 1minute rest between each effort. 5mins recovery and repeat x2.
😯
Could I ask an for an opinion(s) please?
After a crap race on Sunday I fell ill which probably explains my lack of performance. I believe it was/is a stomach bug - very achey, elevated HR by 10BPM and running slightly hot Monday and yesterday with the shits. I feel much better today.
Me being me, I'm worried about loss of performance/training but have kept away from a bike / turbo so far. I feel OK today. I have Battle on the Beach Sunday - result slightly irrelevant more for craic - so my thoughts are to do a good VO2Max session tonight (Pigsah) and a 30 min race start intervals (Dorr) Friday - but should I have another day off the bike and miss one of those?
My next set of racing is Scott MTB on 9th April - so I can get a week of intervals and a week taper in before then, then a race on the 29th, with a mix of training and mid week 1hr races before the next Scott MTB on 28th May - what I'm saying here is that I have plenty of time and relevant effort to get back up to speed...?
I would do nothing till Friday/Sat personally. I spent most of last cx season dragging out a virus by not resting when i started to feel better.
Spend the next couple of days rebuilding your hydration and energy stores
You have forced yourself into a taper - hurray!
If Battle on the Beach is a serious event for you then a couple of 10 minute z4/5 intervals tonight a couple of 10minute tempo intervals on Friday and Saturday a gentle bimble on the race bike to check set up with a couple of 2minute threshold efforts followed by a can of coke or carb drink
You did your time in the winter, now don't screw it up
I spent most of last cx season dragging out a virus by not resting when i started to feel better.
I want to avoid that, the serious racing is just in front of me.
You did your time in the winter, now don't screw it up
I didn't have a good winter (flat FTP) but still yes, I'm learning slowly 🙂 Although I had a bad race Sunday I equalled last years result, and the prior week was 5 places up. Probably carrying a virus, getting a poor start and equalling last year can't be a bad sign
If Battle on the Beach is a serious event for you
Not really, but red mist and all that and if I don't do better than the 75th Vet I got last year I won't deal with it well mentally, although I appreciate thats a mentality I need to tone down for my own Sanity.
I noted in mt forum history this time last year I posted a "Is Racing without podiums worth it" type thread, whereby I explain much the same issues I've experienced over the last 2 weeks, a year ago. So there's a pattern - I obviously come off 4/5 months of winter turbo in a slightly fragile state and probably need more rest/taper than I am applying at the end of the plans to avoid mental and physical issues.
30 minutes easy tonight, nothing more. If you've been ill and raced then you'll almost certainly still battling through this despite feeling better.
If OK then a sweet spot session tomorrow.
Race as planned.
IMO