TrainerRoad - STW approved sessions

Yes I'm quite pleased with my new cave, it even has an ensuite :). Just need to finish those damn chocolates first though.

Kryton, nice work, there's lots more to going fast than FTP

Over the last few days ive tried to think about this, based on feelings through proper riding and TR. i think two things have happened; my muscular endurance has definitely improved and my pain barrier has changed. For the latter i realised that i was riding conservatively, subconciously holding back when it "hurt" in case i couldnt finish the race/ride i was on. Now ive moved to Jens territory, whereby i can push through the pain, engage more endurance and use pedal / breathing technique to extend my power / range, then when that section is over carry on as before

Its odd that ive been doing that since September with TR but never before, and now it seems to be second nature on rides and is helping me. I've not turned into Schurter in 4 months, but I've certainly improved in my ability to ride to my limits. And I've still, 3lbs to drop 🙂

Im gagging to race / TT to see how these things work out under stress

Nice one Kryton.
I often find it remarkable how much punishment the body will take if you put your mind to it. 😀

Now ive moved to Jens territory, whereby i can push through the pain, engage more endurance and use pedal / breathing technique to extend my power / range, then when that section is over carry on as before

Good work. Much the same sort of thing here last winter. Did a lot of work and got a lot faster but FTP hadn't gone up by much.

Im gagging to race / TT to see how these things work out under stress

Probably wrong side of London for you but Newbury do an early season club TT on H10/3A late Feb. Was bloody freezing last year. Silly time of year to be out in a skinsuit 🙂

Lol, skinsuit in February.
Castelli thermosuit maybe - not as aero, but i saw some graph from gore promoting windstopper that suggested significant performance gain from regulating body temperature.

Lol, skinsuit in February.

🙂 Actually went ok that day but blimey, standing around for some 10 mins waiting for my start, that was hideous!

Got thinking about 20 min and 8 min tests having done the 20 last night. A max 20 is quite hard to do as you'll almost certainly set off with a pace in mind so from that point the result is somewhat set. If I'd set of 5 watts higher could I have sustained that, maybe, and that would give a different result. Highlights that it is just an approximation.

Anyone do [url= https://cyclingtips.com/2010/01/how-to-do-a-map-ramp-test/ ]MAP ramp tests[/url] instead? I wonder if this produces a more significant number as you basically go to failure so it doesn't depend on guesswork on pacing?

With the increased usage from the smart trainer, even within a month of using it, happy to see some of my levels being raised from when I was in better shape and more commited a few years ago.

5 Second 972 31/01/2014
10 Second 913 31/01/2014
20 Second 768 31/01/2014
30 Second 612 13/02/2013
1 Minute 446 13/02/2013
2 Minute 367 13/02/2013
5 Minute 327 13/02/2013
[b]10 Minute 296 05/01/2017
15 Minute 290 05/01/2017
20 Minute 286 05/01/2017
30 Minute 265 05/01/2017
60 Minute 242 05/01/2017[/b]
90 Minute 213 07/05/2013

When I started with this last month I wasn't even close to this, I was struggling with an FTP of 200 now I am up to 270.

MSP, out of curiosity, what are you using to measure your power?

60 Minute 242

When I started with this last month I wasn't even close to this, I was struggling with an FTP of 200 now I am up to 270.

Not according to your own stats?

If I'd set of 5 watts higher could I have sustained that

The last test I did where my FTP increased was a 20min test whereby I did exactly that. I rode it as a negative split, keeping to power +5w in the first 10, reamping up +10w from 11-15mins, then slowly ramp to all-out in the final 5.

Although I then started this way in 10m TT's (remember I was new to that last year) I actually went faster riding consistently as possible to 120% FTP for the duration.

60 Minute 242
When I started with this last month I wasn't even close to this, I was struggling with an FTP of 200 now I am up to 270.

Not according to your own stats?

When I started with this last month I wasn't even close to this, I was struggling with an FTP of 200 now I am up to 270.

If you've not ridden the turbo in a long time much of this is likely you adapting to riding on the turbo rather than a big bump in fitness. Reckon if you've not used the turbo much it takes a few weeks of consistent riding to make the adaptation and for you to be able to test to the maximum of your potential. Some turbos need more adaptation time than others. Still cool to see the numbers go up though 🙂

Not according to your own stats?

I have been bumping up my FTP in TR according to how I feel dong sufferfest sessions, if I feel I could give more I bump it up a bit for the next session. 270 is the level I currently have it set at. That may not correlate to the science, but it is what I am working to.

MSP, out of curiosity, what are you using to measure your power?

Virtual power from my trainer, I would love to have a power meter, but it isn't the highest priority on my list of shiny things.

On my own looking after the kids last night so took the opportunity for my first turbo session, 2hr beehive whilst watching hateful eight (rubbish). soles of my feet and arse are a bit sore this morning. Think I need to break myself back in.....

Rode Lamarck yesterday (4 x 10 mins at FTP) and felt surprisingly in control all the way through. Think it's about time to retest my FTP.

For Gods sake. Beta Blockers might blunt your performance the Doc said...

Too right. Couldn't get above 120bpm at VO2max w/kg and couldn't maintain the power either, I guess my muscles are starved of oxygen from my heart being limited to 2nd gear...

Once you start using your Neo in Erg mode, all of these problems will go away...

Tried the Neo in erg mode today and felt fine at fairly low power (~200W) but awful at higher powers (>350W). Like riding slowly through treacle. Felt much more like road out of erg mode. Shall have to see what config can be tweaked.

For Gods sake. Beta Blockers might blunt your performance the Doc said...

Time to work on your base!

I've just started using it as part of recovery from a knee injury. Can't put much power through it yet but like the structured nature to help keep my interest. Mind you, even if I could put more power out without knee being painful it wouldn't last long as haven't ridden since a cyclocross race in November! So unfit.

It's a good excuse to listen to some loud rock as well 🙂

mrblobby - Member
Actually went ok that day but blimey, standing around for some 10 mins waiting for my start, that was hideous!

Get some of the outer edge zip tights if you haven't already, not exaggerating when I say they are a game changer for winter racing, can whip them off on the start line with a couple of minutes to go. Means warm up isn't totally futile!

Could I ask you chaps for some advice?

I've had trainerroad for about 6 months and have been doing 1 x session (sometimes a sweetspot or a Sufferfest) during the week and then a regular Saturday morning 50k chaingang with the club.

I've just decided to do the Sweet Spot base plan, which is 3 x sessions per week. Here's the thing - do I just do the two sessions on the turbo then 'count' the 90min session as my chain-gang outdoor ride?

Or do I do the three in the week then THEN the outdoor ride?

For context....it's a quick ride 4 laps of a 10k loop with long flat and then a climb. It's quite 'competitive' shall we say 🙂 and I like to be fresh for it.

I know it's a bit tricky to say, but if any of you have done the same thing it would be god to get advice.

I do the former oafisb - my third or weekend ride is outdoors unless time / weather means I'll do the TR workout.

It helps me to remember that technical skills - regardless of discipline - are training too. Even club rides can be intervals - someone will beast a hill, or you can, or pull a lead out for 5 mins... it's why I put a power meter on my road bike.

Thank you for the insight, Kryton - that seems very sensible.
Did you ever do the base plan?

I do the same, currently in week three of sweet spot base mid volume. The weekday sessions are done on turbo, Saturdays session is done on turbo if weather vile or busy, otherwise mimic the interval length outside. Sundays longer lower intensity ride is almost always done outside. As it gets lighter I start to sub in midweek outside rides for turbo too, again mimicking what tr is saying I should be working on. A bit hit and miss without a power meter (just use HR and perceived effort).

Just dipping in and out of TR but most recent FTP test is finally over 300. Woo hoo. Told wife but she gave me a blank look so you lot will have to do instead. Only problem is I'm riding like gash at the minute outdoors. Ride longer than an hour - don't think so.

It's time for me to take another FTP test as I move from base to build. I use the Tacx T2240, is it possible to get this into a slope mode for the duration of the test?

I'm sure that you can just select slope mode whenever you like in TrainerRoad.

is it possible to get this into a slope mode for the duration of the test?

Like Gray said I'm pretty sure you can just select slope mode. When I did the ftp test I left it in erg mode - it uses this on the warm up and then automagically switches to slope mode for the test intervals.

Hmm, I've been connecting via an iPad and not seen that option anywhere, but will take another look. Thanks.

I've mainly used the Windows version. TrainerRoad support are generally pretty responsive - drop them an email if you can't find it.

Thank you for the insight, Kryton - that seems very sensible.
Did you ever do the base plan?

Sweet spot base, i am time crunched.

Question, will it be a big issue if I switch the Saturday and Sunday rides around (sweet spot base mid vol 1)? Have no time for a long ride on Sunday, but on sat could concievably have a couple of hours riding in the sunshine then do the 1.5hrs sat ride on Sunday

Of course not!

Everything's flexible, and it has to be fun.

There may be more than one reason why I'm not an Olympic champion. 🙂

So how you all getting on with your winter training?

Finding January a bit of a slog here. Having had a pretty decent base phase I'm trying something different for build phase and gone polarised. But that's coincided with me and kids picking up colds. And frosty roads leading to too much turbo doesn't help either. Could do with a week somewhere warm with the bike to kick start my motivation!

Confession time too, I'm mostly zwifting now. Though this does seem to be the default STW thread for training chat 🙂

Found the settings to drop into resistance mode, thanks folks.

FTP test went well (relatively speaking, it was still horrific), now at 310 watts. Let's see how that feels once I start General Build.

Finding January a bit of a slog here

Health issues here also have led to some inconsistent training, although when I do get a whole session in I'm on target and have a dogged determination to get through them. I too want to be out on the bike - the roads were covered in white frost this morning so its not worth the risk - I'm trying to remind myself the heady Spring/Summer/Autumn days arent far away.

With the current cold/cough I'm supposed to be Msrshalling from 7:30am tomorrow with a break to ride a Vets CX race. I thought it'd be a good session. But seeing as next week is actually "rest" week on my speciality plan and I start racing proper on 25th Feb, I'm thinking I shouldn't stand in a field all day but should rest, do some light intervals then hit pt2 of my plan hard up to the race.

I'm planning on ticking over with it - although nothing big as the CX season is a long way off [still going in some places]. Just got a power meter so would be good to get a decent ftp to take on the road for some tests later in the year.

Saying that, managed to bollox the turbo up earlier today by melting the plastic side of the roller. I must have reversed the skewer as the wheel was sitting quite far over - still on the steel but only just. Started an 8 min test and the cadence seemed high for the power output, one of the spin ups at 540W felt like a crazy effort instead of just hard. Then there was a burning smell so I stopped.

[img] [/img]

I might be able to clean it up, but was thinking of getting a new turbo anyhow. Is there a cheap design that doesn't drift (much)? Or do you need to spend some money to get that sort of cadence stability?

Bloody hell! ^^

I've decided to sack off tomorrow. Over the years and through my posts everyone knows I never try to rest when ill. I'm going to this year!

Thought this thread was a bit quiet recently!

Winter training going ok for me. December was rest month, lots of messing around on mtb but no effort to any rides. Started sweet spot base at hte beginning of January. Given that I became a dad two weeks ago, I'm fairly pleased with how I'm managing to stick to plan. Missed the first Sunday ride (was in the maternity ward!) and bailed on a couple, one from tiredness and one from getting called to help with nappies :lol:. Otherwise plugging away and starting to feel the fatigue in hte legs. Switched round this weekends, rode outside yesterday (much shorter than planned) and did Saturdays today. Eclipse was brutal on five hours sleep. Nearly bailed every interval but managed to hang on.

Further to the above turbo issue, thinking of maybe getting a set of rollers to train on instead. I've never used them, so wondering if there are any drawbacks to be aware of [think I recall earlier posts on this thread saying they can be a bit unstable on very heavy efforts?]

Given that I became a dad two weeks ago

Congratulations! Oh and good luck.

was in the maternity ward!

Be careful with that shit, i managed to pull a calf muscle during the process and could i get anyone in a room full of nurses to help? Hurumph!

Oh and congrats ferrals. 🙂

Nice work ferrals 😀

Babies sleep most of the time so set up a baby monitor in front of the turbo and you'll be fine 🙂

Easy week here this week after 3 harder ones. Much needed with a sore throat picked up from the kids. I now also know why they've both been complaining of stomach ache... which made for a couple of worrying moments on last nights long turbo 😳

I probably shouldn't mention the Z word on this thread but did a group ride last night organised by Andrew Talansky. Pretty cool riding up the mountain with the man himself on my wheel 🙂

Good one ferrals. I did Eclipse yesterday as well, found it tough enough despite having a normal amount of sleep and no new baby!

base 1 & 2 done, just starting second week of general build. Official FTP not going up much from before xmas but I had a really bad test last week after the rest week. Just couldn't get going, felt awful and heart rate down about 8 bpm on previous tests, but managed to record the same power despite that - so I guess I may be improving on a good day. I did the first week of the build plan at about 103% with no problems, so I may be getting stronger. Certainly feel pretty good on the bike and sitting just below 4.5 w/kg at the moment, I think my fantasy of getting to 5 w/kg is not going to happen unless I lose 6kg!

@franko, it is a horrible one, I foolishly think all sub threshold sessions will be easy and then get a shock 😥

@gray,kryton,mrblobby, Thanks 8)

ferrals, your post on the other thread about weight got me curious so had a look at the stw team on TR. Your w/kg is ridiculous, good work 8)

Edit... First baby coincided with a running injury for me. Spent a year shell socked, not exercising, eating lots of bad stuff to try and stay awake during the day. Got back on the bike 11kg heavier and my first 8 min TR test came out over 110W less than it is now. You have been warned 😉

Dont believe it for a second! Its virtual power so I have no idea where it is in reality. If it really was that I'd not be sitting in a office at the moment! I also haven't ammended weight for the christmas / newborn eating binge 😳

I'm actually thinking about paying to do a proper fitness test to get a real number for power to weight - a bit sad as it wont be much use but I'd like to know!

edit in response to your edit 😆 - Thats why I'm trying not to stop training at all. We are eating too much instant food and cake/biscuits, but I think thats ok for the first month or so then I'll start eating better again.. I've always struggled with sleeping before races so training sleep deprived will probably pay dividends 😆

ferrals, if you were a bit closer I'd lend you PM for some testing 🙂

Thats why I'm trying not to stop training at all.

It's easily doable, was a bit more motivated with racing when we had our second child, I think I missed a day or two's training 🙂

I've always struggled with sleeping before races so training sleep deprived will probably pay dividends

It would be nice if there was some benefit to this, like there is with fasted training, unfortunately I don't think there is 🙁 Funny reading stuff about not training when tired or with elevated HR, if I didn't do this I'd probably have not trained for a year or two!

but I think thats ok for the first month or so

Lol, you'll learn... you'll be grabbing anything that can be stuffed down in 30 seconds. There are however a lot more "naked" or "raw" snack bars etc about now than I could find 8 years ago, so try to fill your Kitchen cupboard with those every week.

I also found good soups like the Covent Garden soups / Supermarket own versions which pretty good low cal / quick options.

Basically, quality over quantity in the "reach for" stakes...

funny you should mention soup, been living off the Yorkshire provender 'naturally skinny' chicken and veg soup which is really nice, easy and healthy. Sadly been complementing it by lemon drizzle cake and Stilton (not together 😆 )

I've always struggled with sleeping before races so training sleep deprived will probably pay dividends

It would be nice if there was some benefit to this, like there is with fasted training,

Lateral thinking chaps! I definitely benefitted from getting used to operating on next to no sleep. For a while I was 'happily' getting up at 0430 to get some hours in - some days to get in early to work, others to ride the long way in (~4 hours). There's no way I could have done that pre-children. Embrace the sleep deprivation, consider it the new normal, then you'll have some extra hours each day forever!

I'm currently waiting to see my surgeon chap. Ho hum.

Bit of a training update, I’ve been following sweet spot low volume for about 7 weeks now.

I find that this gives me a structured plan for the dark nights on my rollers whilst leaving me fresh enough to for a couple more sessions on the MTB if time/weather permits.

Upped the FTP 7 watts to 4.2w/KG from just before Christmas, so things are moving the right direction.

Racing licence paid for and first race entered in order to create a little extra motivation.

Keep looking at new bikes whilst I've been hunting around for a new one for my eldest son. Some really nice 2017 models out now, way more tempting than 2016 ones were this time last year, odd.

So how you all getting on with your winter training?

Mine never really got started, and has mostly wilted and died. Combination of reasons / excuses including being poorly and having a sore back. Now I have surgery kind of hanging over me at an unknown time with an unknown outcome so it's hard to motivate myself to ride for training's sake (I did think that 'being fit and strong will put me in the best position to get through the surgery well', but now I can't really be arsed). Hmm, that sounds a bit grumpy. I'm not really, just in a bit of an annoying period.

Below par performance again tonight. even after rest week I've got massive pain in my upper legs during vo2max intervals.

The next day, my hips hurt and it's "stiff" to walk - nothing's changed about my setup :-/

Maybe you've got old? HTH 🙂

Recommendations for an hour log recovery session? I just want something to tick over my legs whilst testing out my new TT bike for the first time. Longer intervals at Sweet Spot?

Sweet spot work is not really recovery, but I get your point.

Geiger fits the bill, or Donner if you dial down the FTP by 5-10%

Geiger looks good thanks, I might dial that down a fair bit though as I'm on intervals (old rag) Monday.

Has anyone done an FTP test on TR in erg mode? Reading the blog it sounds like it automatically flips into slope mode during the actual 20min test interval. But it isn't 100% clear. I was going to do rubber glove tonight, but don't fancy pissing around manually switching modes after the interval has started if it doesn't do so.

Found my own answer in the replies to their blog from one of their tech guys, looks like it does as thought...
Hi Stephen,

We've set up Rubber Glove to automatically calculate your FTP/LTHR and display this prompt after the workout just as the TrainerRoad FTP tests do.

Additionally, if you're using an electronic trainer (KICKR, Computrainer, Powerbeam Pro), TR will relinquish control of the trainer during the test interval such that your power isn't limited by ERG mode.

Well I did rubber glove last night, and was feeling really strong so gave it the beans, apparently I should now reset my FTP from 290 to 403. Not sure I will actually be able to keep that level up though.

In a bit of pain today though, went into the canteen at lunchtime sat down with the lads and then suddenly shot straight back up again as everything tensed up and felt like it was going to tear my kneecap off and drag it half way up my thigh.

apparently I should now reset my FTP from 290 to 403

I realise I have nightmares about my weekly threshold intervals.

6 x7 minutes at threshold. I go into it rested, nutrition sorted, use a gel mid session, drink torq and I give it absolutely everything. It's high quality and I dread it. 3 days later I do 3x20m Z4 - same deal.

Sometimes I wish I could just do more but lower quality (ie less painful) sessions.

3x20m Z4

6 x7 minutes at threshold

I'm wondering what's the deal with the gels etc? All mine are done with water and squash in a bottle no more. Perhaps I've missed a trick, but my sustainable weight would be so I'd i stuffed that lot down

I've never bother with a gel when doing TR stuff before, just stick to water. Probably foolish, should have something when over an hour to help maintain form and focus if nothing else.

Week 6 of sweet spot base mid vol 1 here. I've been doing all sessions outside on the cx bike which has been nice - even did an entirely on road session which I actually liked, started thinking I want a road bike 😳 Spent breakfast looking at a Kinesis Aithen Disc 😀

apparently I should now reset my FTP from 290 to 403

😯 x 2

Assume MSP means 303?

I realise I have nightmares about my weekly threshold intervals.
6 x7 minutes at threshold

Only sessions I do above z2 are 4x8 at > 105% FTP here, absolutely dread them. I've not actually had nightmares about them yet but I suspect it's only a matter of time.

I'm wondering what's the deal with the gels etc?

For emergency use only IMO.

Spent breakfast looking at a Kinesis Aithen Disc

Nice 🙂 Thinking about a new frame for the training bike with discs too, nothing quite tickles my fancy for a sensible price though.

Only sessions I do above z2 are 4x8 at > 105% FTP here,

How very lazy 😉 with the exception of 4x15 95% tomorrow on the new TT bike all my intervals have been in the region of 120-165%.

Normality doesn't mean less painful! The 6x7minutes = 42minutes at my 20minute threshold ie it's supposed to be shorter higher intensity.

3x20minutes may be normality but 20minutes at 90% of threshold isn't exactly a walk in the park either.

Gels - I am empty after 20-30minutes, I don't care if it's only mental but it's harder to throw in the towel after I've necked a gel and I feel stronger after it. Also I want to get my stomach used to eating at threshold. I also find a carbohydrate heavy day is a help. I'm not sure I race harder than this 6x7minute session

How very lazy

🙂

6x7minutes = 42minutes at my 20minute threshold

This is a lot harder than it sounds, especially if you have quite a flat power profile.

Gels - I am empty after 20-30minutes, I don't care if it's only mental but it's harder to throw in the towel after I've necked a gel and I feel stronger after it.

This was me. I've cut back on carbs hugely and try and do as much fasted riding as I can now. It's really helped. TBH I think a lot of it is psychological.

What's it helped? Always willing to try something new but I think there's a physiological justification for replenishing carbohydrate at this intensity.

I'm wondering what's the deal with the gels etc? All mine are done with water and squash in a bottle no more. Perhaps I've missed a trick, but my sustainable weight would be so I'd i stuffed that lot down

I do all my SS/LT sessions fully fuelled too. Otherwise you begin to tire around 2/3rds of the way through and A) the quality of the session drops, and B) you dig yourself a bigger hole from a recovery standpoint.

Edit:

Normality doesn't mean less painful! The 6x7minutes = 42minutes at my 20minute threshold ie it's supposed to be shorter higher intensity.

3x20minutes may be normality but 20minutes at 90% of threshold isn't exactly a walk in the park either.

I certainly wasn't trying to say 3x20 @ SS was a walk in the park, cos its really not. Takes quite a psychological effort to hang in there for the last 10 mins.

The 6x7 makes much more sense at 20min power rather than FTP. Makes it a very similar session to MrBlobby's 4x8 which I can confirm is brutal

What's it helped? Always willing to try something new but I think there's a physiological justification for replenishing carbohydrate at this intensity.

I think the theory is that your usually burning a mix of carb and fat. And training in a low carb state encourages use of a greater proportion of fat (of which you have a lot more in reserve) for a given effort. I think the result is you burn less carbs for a given effort and can therefore make more of the limited reserves you've got. I read a few papers on it a while back that had more detail that seemed to make sense to me. And what I've done so far seems to have helped (20 min power is up, finish long rides feeling like I've still got lots in the tank.)

I have however spent some long rides tormented by an emergency cereal bar in my jersey pocket 🙂

I do all my SS/LT sessions fully fuelled too.

Much the same here, though that mostly just involves eating normally and not being fasted, not knocking back gels.

Assume MSP means 303?

No I mean 403, these are the figures from last night

1 Minute 448 09/02/2017
2 Minute 444 09/02/2017
5 Minute 439 09/02/2017
10 Minute 432 09/02/2017
15 Minute 429 09/02/2017
20 Minute 426 09/02/2017
30 Minute 346 09/02/2017

So TR estimated my new ftp from the 20 min block to be 403, but I honestly don't think I could actually hold 403 for an hour. I have never battered myself on the trainer before like I did for that 20 mins, and I think I am better suited to a 20 min interval than I am a 60 min interval, it was also quite a mental effort I was really just hanging onto it for the last 10 mins of the interval fighting with all my will not to let it go and just stop.

You also have to remember I weigh in at 125kg, I am more of an err... power athlete than an average cyclist.

I also wish I had a proper power meter and not just taking readings from the trainer, it is supposed to be pretty accurate, but I have to say it does seem somewhat out of left field. I will have to see how that translates to actually doing training sessions, the problem may be that I can do the hard efforts, but the recoveries are too high to actually recover between intervals. I suspect I will be lowering it.

What is your weight? If you are not a biffer you should be thinking about signing up as a pro soon...

Yeah, I was just editing that in to add some context.

MSP, I'm betting everyone wants to be on your wheel on the flat 🙂

Another thing I did a couple of months ago was to get some pedal extenders. Before that I could feel all the effort was being done by the "teardrop" muscle just above the knee, now it has really shifted into the core of the thigh muscle, I think it has really helped me progress quite quickly.

MSP, I'm betting everyone wants to be on your wheel on the flat

Oh yeah, the bastards never take a turn then, never repay the favour going up hill though.

The 6x7 makes much more sense at 20min power rather than FTP. Makes it a very similar session to MrBlobby's 4x8 which I can confirm is brutal

Coming off a load of winter z2 and tempo it's taken a while to get my head around the effort. I'm now at the end of my 5th week of doing these and this is the first week I've managed all 4 at the target power (both sessions too!) Rather pleased about that 😀 So now it's time to reduce the recovery interval 😕

I also wish I had a proper power meter and not just taking readings from the trainer, it is supposed to be pretty accurate, but I have to say it does seem somewhat out of left field. I will have to see how that translates to actually doing training sessions, the problem may be that I can do the hard efforts, but the recoveries are too high to actually recover between intervals. I suspect I will be lowering it.

Didn't find it a problem at all just training to get some legs under me, but if you want to get more serious then a power meter will eventually be needed. Saying that, some turbo designs are way more stable, so will give you pretty accurate virtual power.

Large numbers there MSP

He's 3.2w/kg. Hardly huge, thats less than me and I'm the least powerful rider I know - just being factual not willy waving...

Interesting what MSP said about his legs though. Before this round of winter training Njee pointed out to me my saddle looked low. I readjusted using the 109% rule with the intent to "fettle" and never did. At then end of my turbo sessions my pains come from within and at the centre/core of my quads as MSP describes, so is that a good thing? My improvement this season has been climbing & sustainable power so is that the impact?