Chef, they look hard fun 🙂 Do quite a lot of Kaiser but that's only 3 minute intervals and that's hard.
Monitor again for me. Mostly ignored the instructions though and did some low cadence work. Didn't want to do too much as I should be able to get out for some long morning rides over the next couple of days.
Slide Mountain but pushed on a little for the last 10 minutes to just under FTP to see if I could hold it.
Felt reasonably comfortable again so may try something a little tougher next before deciding whether or not to do another 20 minute test (or maybe just an 8).
Did the 8 minute test the other day, was a total disaster frankly, couldn't sustain anything like sensible power, and was really dropping off at the end of each effort - at levels I've sustained for double the length of time recently! Left FTP more or less as was and will try again soon, definitely felt like an off day!
I should have stayed inside today, went out and done a little loop to check my FTP in the real world. Bloody horrendous, got in freeeeeeezing and the Mrs had to help me get undressed, after my shower I sat on the couch struggling to focus....not so good. Hit my estimated FTP in horrible cold and wet conditions though which is higher than the last time I did a proper one hour test so happy with that as I reckon it could be higher in normal operating conditions! I've now managed to lose all the weight I put on in November, not part of the plan.
Got some rollers on order from the Planet X sale. Looking forward to mixing it up with turbo work. Just wondering if some sessions are better than others on the rollers? Was thinking the longer steadier intervals would be good on the rollers.
What's FTP stand for?
Functional threshold power.
I've done about 1/2 of my workouts on rollers. Do they have a resistance unit? I've found it a struggle to do anything useful on mine above about 400-450W on full resistance (Cycleops alu ones) as cadence gets a bit wild but I'm still on the compact gearing the bike came with. Def worth a try though, I think they're good for the longer interval stuff at FTPish level as you're working your core too. I did my original 8 min test on mine plus a 20 min one I deleted after falling off....ahem....
Functional threshold power or pace (FTP) is the highest mean average power or pace you can maintain for one hour.
Normally you use a 20 minute test to determine your FTP as doing a full 100% hour is simply too hard.
You can then divide your FTP by your body weight to allow you to compare values, as 300 watts is very different for someone who is 100 kg than another who is 75 kg.
Low cadence high power workouts are some what difficult on rollers MrBlobby, otherwise I find everything else is fine.
Did DONNER this morning. I seem to be struggling to maintain the levels required for the period of the intervals. I've had to start knocking it down to 90/95% just to get through the sessions.
Maybe my last FTP test was just a one off good one...
gazhurst, field tests do just give you an approximation and you may need to tweak, but it could just be a rest/tiredness thing.
Did Galena today (3x20 sweetspot). That was hard, mostly due to it being off the back of a few days of high TSS. Engine felt fine but legs were very tired towards the end. Day off tomorrow (or an easy Birch if legs feel ok.)
By what amount have all yall raised your FTP since joining trainer road. Anybody raised it by a considerable amount?.
FTP went up by 20% last year. back down to halfway now. Hoping for another decent change in the next couple of months.
I'm halfway into the 20M power accelerator block, hitting the targets quite well. i'm toying with pushing the power up a few % any thoughts on that?
Mine has gone up considerably in the past year (by about 50%) but I did start off having had almost a two year layoff from any proper training due to injury, so probably not the best example, and I'm not back to pre layoff power but am getting there slowly. If you are fit and well trained then you're not going to make huge rapid gains. If you're new to turbo work too, much of those gains are likely just down to getting more comfortable with pushing yourself harder on the field tests.
Thomthumb, you can try knocking it up via the % thing at the bottom of the window and see how you get on with specific workouts.
Thomthumb, you can try knocking it up via the % thing at the bottom of the window and see how you get on with specific workouts.
Thanks, any thoughts on how much though? i was thinking maybe 5% is too much to start with, but then will i actually notice 3%, but maybe that's the point.
I'd probably only bump it up a percentage or two at a time. I'd only be tweaking on those workouts that are meant to leave you spent after the final interval. You can always bump it up a few percent at the start and knock it down during the workout if you think you're going to have trouble completing the session.
Mrblobby - I hear that. I think my problem is my Turbo (not making intentional excuses). I have the Elite Superchrono with 8 varying resistance levels but that exact turbo isn't listed on TrainerRoad so I have used the closest one to it. The one on TrainerRoad has 5 settings so I set it to 2 but had it on 3 on my turbo.
My first FTP test was 70w lower than my current one because I had the resistance on 1.
It sounds so ridiculous when I type it on here but I know what I mean
I do have a Stages Power Meter on my MTB but as it's 12x142 I'm struggling to bolt it to the Turbo
20 * 45 seconds of 15 today, lovely!
Is that 45s on then 15s off? Looks horrible 🙂 Another Starr King today for me.
Edit: got my new rollers yesterday. From a quick little comedy spin I think it's going to take a bit of practice before I can get any decent work done on them!
sorry off 15. Yes.
Looked like this:
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/595733-Aktivitus-45-15
Didn't program the session quite right so rode each interval at about 10w too low.
Rollers rock, keep at it.
Swedish, have I miss read it or is your max heart rate actually 220, or have you just not adjusted your max setting?
Those are the default ones, my cycling max is around 178.
Will adjust accordingly.
Revisited the FTP test today with the 20 minute test. Rather more successful than the 8 minute test last week. 254w FTP, still a way to go to get back to the halcyon days 🙁
Chef, that looks rank! Think I'll stick with sweet spot stuff for now....
Mr Blobby, careful you don't leave skid marks on the kitchen floor 😀
I felt good on today's club run 😉
[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3721/11780024285_61f7469739.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/36927256@N00/11780024285/ ]Untitled[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/36927256@N00/ ]monkey****er[/url], on Flickr
80rpm, that's quite a gear you must be turning 530/11?!
Impressive eh, no EPO'zzz or nuffin, had one of those thingies like Guy Martin but biggerer.
Scylla today, 2 minutes under then 1 minute over FTP (+/- 5% iirc). 3 blocks, 12 minutes each with 6 minutes recovery between.
Pretty hard going after a couple of days out, sat here now with that lovely leg burn.
Monkeyfudger... watt happened there?! 🙂
Haze, over/under sessions are tough but well worth the effort. Not done Scylla for a while, shall plan it in.
Did 'The Thumb' yesterday....once again I had to knock it down to 90/95% but then I realised my resistance settings on the turbo had slipped and we're wrong. Managed to get it back up to 100% for the last 2 3min VO2 intervals
Doh
Gazhurst... I do like The Thumb, a good session. Always feel like I'm never going to be able to complete it after the first few intervals but then get into a bit of a groove after about half an hour and really enjoy it.
I think my problem is my Turbo (not making intentional excuses). I have the Elite Superchrono with 8 varying resistance levels but that exact turbo isn't listed on TrainerRoad so I have used the closest one to it. The one on TrainerRoad has 5 settings so I set it to 2 but had it on 3 on my turbo.
I was looking at the various trainer settings. Noticed that the Elite PowerMag has 8 settings on TrainerRoad. Wondered if this might be a better match for your trainer? I guess as long as you always pick the same setting of turbo and resistance setting then it's not such a big deal. May not be accurate but at least it will be consistent, which is probably what's important.
Thinking of signing up for the trainer road... seems pretty good.
Just wondering what sort of file it produces?
I have used the Virtual power for my Kurt Kinetic trainer on Golden cheetah before (matches the powertap exactly, just smoother) and can upload the Golden cheetah file up and it produces wattage figures for analysing. I have since moved onto using WKO so would like to be able to upload my trainer road file up to it and get accurate wattage figures for it without always using my powertap
Ultimately i can always just use my powertap wheel and Garmin head unit as well to record it all for that purpose, but changing tyres and wheels about and setting it up takes 10-15 minutes of my life that I would rather spend pedalling furiously of course.
so would like to be able to upload my trainer road file up to it and get accurate wattage figures for it without always using my powertap
You won't. Virtual power gives you a repeatable number, but it won't be comparable to your PowerTap numbers, so fairly meaningless in WKO.
I just use my PowerTap, obviously means tyres don't last as long as they might, but it's not that bad, and means it's genuinely comparable.
What njee20 said.
Though worth having a play with the virtual power and the power tap and seeing what the discrepancy is. May not be too bad depending on what you're trying to do on the turbo. I did try this, it wasn't too far out, but found it quite sensitive to things like tyre pressure and how tightly the roller was up against the rear tyre. In the end I just use the powertap all time (but then I hardly ever use it outdoors so it just stays on my turbo setup.)
I was looking at the various trainer settings. Noticed that the Elite PowerMag has 8 settings on TrainerRoad. Wondered if this might be a better match for your trainer?
I have the same Elite Superchrono trainer as gazhurst and I actually emailed trainerroad about which turbo to choose on the software. They suggested the beta version of the 8 level Elite Powermag would be a better fit.
The Kurt Kinetic has a mapped out power curve that has accurately measured the wattage recorded by my powertap, so yes, it does in this case!
[url= http://www.kurtkinetic.com/powercurve.php ]http://www.kurtkinetic.com/powercurve.php[/url]
As Mr Blobby points out the set up is important. If you measure the roll down, It is definitely on the money in my experience.Unless you are knocking our threshold intervals at 1400 watts 😆
Anyway - can anyone answer my question about the file type? I can't access the Trainer road support desk via my work internet
On the side - I think a lot of people might be struggling so much initially when increasing their FTP setting on TR due to a lot of turbos not having a progressive curve of resistance? So 5% increase in wheel speed at the sensor is actually a lot more than 5% increase in the wattage required to turn that speed perhaps?
Just wondering what sort of file it produces?
Oh and you can dump out your workout from TrainerRoad in TCX format so easy to load into WKO. I do almost exactly this (into TrainingPeaks.)
Edit...
On the side - I think a lot of people might be struggling so much initially when increasing their FTP setting on TR due to a lot of turbos not having a progressive curve of resistance? So 5% increase in wheel speed at the sensor is actually a lot more than 5% increase in the wattage required to turn that speed perhaps?
Would assume this is just because the workouts become harder 🙂
Don't use the virtual power, but would have assumed that the power curves are built up from a discreet set of data points then some interpolation used to determine the intermediate points. Don't know how many discreet data points are used but would hope a fair few in order to make the interpolation less of a guess.
Cheers!
Would be interesting to see a TCX upload to another system from someone who does use the Virtual power.
Would be interesting to see a TCX upload to another system from someone who does use the Virtual power.
I had to do this a couple of times when my powertap had a flat battery. Just looks like any other TCX file with power data. What you expecting to see?
mrblobby - MemberWould be interesting to see a TCX upload to another system from someone who does use the Virtual power.
I had to do this a couple of times when my powertap had a flat battery. Just looks like any other TCX file with power data. What you expecting to see?
Thats what I was hoping to see, thanks 🙂
If I'm getting the gist of what you're asking...in Career, there is a 'button' at the top called 'download'. Click on this and it downloads a file to your computer. Simply upload this into either TrainingPeaks or WKO. It works, I have done it and do do it
I have the same Elite Superchrono trainer as gazhurst and I actually emailed trainerroad about which turbo to choose on the software. They suggested the beta version of the 8 level Elite Powermag would be a better fit.
Awesome. I kept meaning to email them but kept forgetting
I was looking at the various trainer settings. Noticed that the Elite PowerMag has 8 settings on TrainerRoad. Wondered if this might be a better match for your trainer? I guess as long as you always pick the same setting of turbo and resistance setting then it's not such a big deal. May not be accurate but at least it will be consistent, which is probably what's important.
I do have a Stages powermeter on my race bike (mtb) but have been struggling to connect it to the turbo as it's a 12 x 142 rear axle. I have managed to source a Kurt Traxle so that issue is now solved but the Traxle is slightly too wide to fit my turbo. Once I have sorted it, I intend to use the mtb with stages rather than virtual power
Just used Trainer Road for the first time and did the 20 minute FTP test.
To be fair I havent read up much, but I was a little confused.
During the 20 minute section should I being going all out as hard as a can sustain for 20 minutes, or trying to keep my heart rate at the 'target heart rate' suggested. I pretty much kept at the target rate suggested (around 157 bpm) which didnt feel right.
Any advice?
Ta
It's meant to be the max effort you can manage over the 20 minutes, no holding back. Should be no more left in the tank at the end of the 20 mins. You may be better off doing the 8 minute test initially. That's 8 mins as hard as you can, then a bit of a rest, then another 8 mins hard as you can. A percentage of the average of both gives you an FTP estimate. Reckon it's easier to judge what you can sustain for 8 mins rather than 20 mins.
So why does it suggest a target heart rate on the left then?
Would assume that's just based on the default setting for LTHR. If you have an FTP setup then the target for the test will be to achieve that FTP value.
6 *4 minutes off 3 tonight. Completed the session which I failed to do last week, (stopping after 4 intervals).
Just on the edge of utter misery but made it through thanks to yesterday's day off and being fueled by cake from the boss earlier in the day.
Came back to Trainerroad after 2 weeks "off" - one doing the Festive 500, and the other actually off. Managed Cardinal as part of the Sweet Spot Base 2 and didn't feel nearly as bad as I did after I upped my FTP before Christmas.
Slide Mountain again for me, got a little carried away on the last stretch when Media Player spat out some Dead Kennedys!
Felt very good though 8)
Felt very good though
I have never done a turbo session that felt good. All mine are horrible hatefull experience 😉
I did one called McKinley a couple of days ago. Outside it would have been fine, but on a turbo it left me feeling a bit traumatised. On the bright side I think it used 2400kj so should help shift the xmas belly.
Pretty interested in this as a way to make my roller sessions a bit more targeted.
One question is how much difference does what model of roller you select make to the workouts? I've got an old set that look like the Minoura Action Advance rollers ([url] http://www.cyclexpress.co.uk/minaction/?gclid=CKX-usvN7rsCFTHLtAodzwcAqw [/url]) but have no clue what they actually are! (no resistance)
As well as that is it just an ANT+ sensor and USB stick I'd need?
Ta
You need something with resistance (or a power meter) for it to work.
I did Haeckel last night
First time on a new turbo (Elite Novo Force) and using the Stages Powermemter on my race bike.
First thing I noticed was how erratic the power was. If the target was 269, I was reading anything from 230 to 320. Is this right? If so, how do I make it smoother? I had it set to 3sec smoothing
I also realised how difficult it is to ride at the higher end of FTP when using a 1 x 10 set up with a 32t front ring and 11-36 on the back. The session was supposed to be 3x4 intervals of high force targetting a cadence around 60rpm but I found I was doing 110rpm just to get the power in the biggest gear.
Saying that, I thought it was a VO2max session aimed at high cadence....ooops not surprisingly, I struggled AGAIN
Fixed resistance turbos are a generally designed for road wheel size and gearing, so little wheels and little mtb gearing doesn't tend to work well. And power meters do tend to fluctuate a lot more than virtual power if your pedalling isn't that smooth.
Awful session last night. Didn't get on will after 8 as trouble getting the boy to bed, was mentally knackered. Abandoned after a few minutes 🙁
That's quite a wide power range.
I use the 3 second smoothing and run +/-20 watts most of the time.
1*10 is not going to lend itself to low cadance work, stick to the road bike for that.
I also realised how difficult it is to ride at the higher end of FTP when using a 1 x 10 set up with a 32t front ring and 11-36 on the back.
1*10 is not going to lend itself to low cadence work, stick to the road bike for that
The Tacx Booster is awesome for 1x Turbo training and low cadence stuff. I forget the exact numbers I calculated for 1x10, but max power at 90rpm is around 550W on 32T and 11-36. That should be plenty for everything but very short sprints in the fitter people- certainly plenty for useless me!
What rollers are people using then?
One I'm using at the moment is a borrow so if I need something with resistance I'll have to splash some cash.
Prefer rollers to turbo...
I use the Elite ones with resistance, here:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-v-arion-parabolic-inertial-rollers/
Work well, not the easiest to ride I've since found out, a little too much plastic in the build, but have lasted two winters kept in a damp shed in minus temps.
but max power at 90rpm is around 550W on 32T
Not sure 90RPM counts as low cadance, but fair play that's quite some resistance.
Ta
I use the 3 second smoothing and run +/-20 watts most of the time.1*10 is not going to lend itself to low cadance work, stick to the road bike for that.
+1 to both of these.
Just got the Planet X resistance rollers. They look pretty good (made by SportsCrafters) but not really had a chance to use them properly yet. Plenty of resistance there though (actually a little worried there's too much!) Looks sturdy and the drums are nicely machined. Use a power meter so not bothered about virtual power, but notice that the sports crafter rollers are supported, which I think are identical.
Not sure 90RPM counts as low cadance, but fair play that's quite some resistance.
90rpm and ~550W was to illustrate a high usable range and of course the max W generated at 70rpm for example will be lower but still more than high enough for most people and applications.
Reviews of the Tacx Booster noted that most testers could barely move the cranks on a road bike in the highest resistance setting 😯 How smooth it is at that level of resistance I'm not sure as I'm not doing anything anywhere near that level at the moment
My turbo bike is an old 26" mtb set up 1 x 9. It is setup with a 46t ring on the front and 11-25 cassette on the back, which gives a good range of resistance, although I hardly ever pedal it in 46-11 - maybe for a 10/10 sprint at the end of a Sufferfest workout. That is on a fixed resistance Cyclops Fluid Trainer. If I used a normal sized front ring I would be spinning madly all the time.
Fluid trainers get harder the harder you pedal though don't they? They Elite (IIRC) one I had did. Wasn't a linear resistance curve.
I've been using the Cycleops rollers with the resistance unit for some workouts. Pretty decent, I can get enough power down despite using a compact.
Last nights workout was one I put in myself again, meant to be a ramp test with 8, 8 sec flat out seated sprints at the end but I got distracted at work and missed off the final part. Duh! Ended up having to do a few rewinds on it. Was hoping to get a bit higher up but the old legs just weren't having it. FTP targets are meaningless in it but I just find it a hell of a lot easier to do workouts on TrainerRoad with the laptop rather than using the Garmin. Need to edit it so it's correct, actual workout looked like this.
[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3683/11850892144_e9a4af672a.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/36927256@N00/11850892144/ ]Untitled[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/36927256@N00/ ]monkey****er[/url], on Flickr
Reattatched the road bike last night and did Warren. Even though it was 2hrs 15mins, I found it quite enjoyable. Back to using Virtual Power and it was much much easier to keep to a target power.
I use an Elite Supercrono power mag with 8 levels, and I suggest to train with level x and set level x+1 in TrainerRoad.
I'm sure that the difference between the VirtualPartner and the real power is 20/30 watt.
So if you are using level 2 of trainer, with level 3 on Traninerroad you obtain a "more real" power.
It should be helpfull if Trainerroad allow the possibility to set the difference.
Any recommendations for decent low cadence strength stuff? Even better with instructions to take my mind off the tedium!
Did my first proper session last night with Sufferfest Angels.
Trainerroad has definitely made it a more natural feeling ride, previously I obviously put the power down a bit harder at times than I needed to, which would leave me blowing and knackered, where this left me less ready to die at the end, but my legs still feeling it.
Might turn my FTP up a notch though as I did feel like I could have suffered a little bit more 😈
Will try Revolver next and see what thats like.
Signed up and downloaded it. Its quite a nice interface and handy to have access to all the workouts. Pretty sure you can do a lot of this in Golden cheetah, having done so in the past. But the interface is so much better, and being able to drop sufferfests straight in is ace.
Can't find my ANT+ stick so just ran the app on screen to keep me alerted to the interval time left. Wanted to do a sweet spot session but Lanarck got my interest with 4x10. Not sure why it was easier to do a 4x10 watching it pass by on the screen but I liked it. Just turned the intensity down to 90% for SST instead of full on FTP
Two sets of 3 * 4 minutes off 2, with 10 minutes rolling between sets.
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/633777-Aktivitus-KIKV
Feeling good after delaying the session from yesterday due to dead batteries in the PowerTap, now just have Saturday and Sunday's session to handle then I'm due an easier week.
Found out the gym at my client's site has a LeMond trainer with power measuring, result! No integration with my Garmin or TrainerRoad but perfect for lunchtime sessions!
Nice workout chef
First proper go using software with the ANT+ stick
Makes all the difference. A hard workout just turned into a proper BallBuster
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/637481-Goethe
Need to find my missing laptop speaker though - Even the quiet Kurt Kinetic is a bit loud for the laptops internal speaker. Suppose the crap fan doesn't help.
Hmmm to increase FTP again or not....had a really slack group ride today (just a 3 hour bimble really) but put a fairly hard 20 minute effort in at the end and put out my highest 20 min effort, doing the 0.95 game it bumps my FTP up a few Watts. It'll not matter really but I'm anal/OCD ish and can't help myself!
Any tips for sessions between races?
Next 3 Saturdays are booked up so don't want to kill myself in the week...overs and unders early part with a sweet spot session later in the week?
Thinking maintenance rather than building...
I've not done any racing this year but I've been riding with people who are a lot stronger, I've found 2 sweet spot sessions (after a hard Sunday ride) on Tue/Thurs leave my legs feeling really good for Sundays ride. Best/only advice I've got....
Yeah that sounds something like what I'm thinking, I put the overs/unders in early just to add a bit of of hard work but with plenty of time for recovery...probably a bit over concerned about dropping off?
Raced yesterday and got a decent ride in today...so rest tomorrow, trainer Tuesday (Scylla) and Thursday (Carson), rest Friday, race Saturday...
I personally wouldn't be at all worried about dropping off if I'd ridden hard Saturday then only done 2 sweet spot sessions through the week with another hard Saturday ride again. I prefer 2 days rest before a hard ride but half the reason for that is just to make sure I've eaten well as I'm slack as **** and don't eat enough after training late.
Racing once at the weekend should be no problem. I'd rest the Sunday or ride an hour or so super easy.
Sweetspot Tuesday, hard intervals Wednesday, reduced time sweatspot Thursday, rest Friday.
That's what I was doing when racing CX twice a weekend in the Autumn and I found it worked really well.
---
Did Angles on Sufferfest on Sunday, man was that last 8 minute interval hard!
Had 3 hours yesterday, didn't go out hard but not exactly super easy either.
I may stick to my plan then but introduce a Sufferfest on Wednesday, A Very Dark Place perhaps...
I always find that last Angels interval pretty tough, never really get on top of it!
bumps my FTP up a few Watts. It'll not matter really but I'm anal/OCD ish and can't help myself!
Haha, know what you mean. It is just a field test though and only an approximation of a max 60 min effort so can easily be a few watts out one way or another.
Suspect I'll be bumping my FTP mostly downwards this year (even less time to train) and that's going to hard to take 🙁
Unders and overs, love 'em!
Any others similar to Scylla...but maybe a bit longer/hurtier?
So can some trainerroadists recommend some decent climbing workouts. This is not entirely unrelated to my surprise Fred Whitton place...
