Patience grasshopper (IMHO obviously) 😀
More seriously I'd finish whatever plan element you're on as a proper ftp test every 6 weeks is probably the best bet. I'm not sure of the merit of changing mid-plan based on one result unless you felt it was very low / high as the plans have periodisation built into them so rests etc are just as important. Also that one workout might have been really playing to your strengths anyway.
Ebbrets last night for me. It includes 5 second power spin ups which I just can't manage. I'm sitting at ~240 Watts and if I'm lucky I get to somewhere in the 350 range after 5 seconds when it's asking for 420. I'm using a power2max hooked up to a basic minoura trainer and trying to add loads of resistance doesn't seem to work; neither does quickly changing gears.
Wondering if anybody has any hints or tips as it's clearly something I need to improve on based on last night.
It includes 5 second power spin ups
What's your cadence like? A few seconds before the interval you want to get into a gear where you're doing 240 watts at a relatively low cadence, but one that you can still really spin up to a high cadence as quickly as possible at the start of the interval (for me I'd go from about 75 to 120+). Maybe knock up a gear or two before the 5 seconds are up. I'm most definitely not a sprinter but that'll get me up over 700W. Worth a bit of practice if it's something you want to get good at. Suspect it does depend somewhat on your turbo too. Basically just go berserk and pedal like a maniac, it's only 5 seconds 🙂
I was going to state cadence also - I get from 250 to approx 450 watts going from 95 to 110 in the same gear. I tried changing gears once and zoomed up to 850w. Thats when I discovered I had a sprint.
At 240W I'm spinning at about 85-90. I do go berserk and I'm changing down a couple of seconds before but obviously not enough.... Cadence is a bit of a weak spot for me as my max is ~105 without loosing form. Next time this sort of thing comes up I'll pick a cadence lower for a few seconds before and go properly from min to max.
Angels for me tonight, managed to hit the numbers so its time to up the FTP by 5, ooh goody!
I tried changing gears once and zoomed up to 850w.
jeez - i get to about 650W and the turbo starts rattling!
I started Givens +3 this eve but wasnt feeling it, and then my knee started niggling and I gave up 🙁
Knee pain was exactly the reason/excuse I bailed from Eclipse yesterday. It's funny, watts I can do without an issue as an ave over 20 minutes on the road is a lot harder to do with very little variation and constant work on the turbo.
Really bringing home to me that I have always trained to my strenghs and not my weaknesses, never enjoyed steady state work and have always had a reasonable level of power but not enough fitness or stamina.
Pain and aches inside on a turbo can be a tell tale sign of positioning or cleat issues.
These niggles don't surface when riding on the road as you're always changing your body position, but on the turbo/rollers you tend to sit a lot stiller and thus anything not entirely right gets shown up.
Just a thought.
Thanks, it's a good thought and something that I need to address. I'm using an old mtb frame as a turbo bike with probably less than perfect set up and have just started on the turbo in earnest this last week and a bit.
Worst bit is that my brother bike fits for a living and would go spare if I told him I'd just chucked a spare frame on the turbo with little thought to set up other than that feels ok..
When I started doing some more road miles a few years ago couldn't believe how much set up mattered compared to mtb for comfort and it seems the turbo is a step on again.
Funny you should say that Swedish Chef - the knee that I had a niggle in, I know the cleat is a bit worn, or maybe chipped or something: I can feel it rocking in the pedal but I'm going to wait for post cx season to put new cleats on.
I have a feeling using the turbo means glutes don't get engaged as much so going to do some glute excersizes too
+1 to what Swedish Chef says, you just don't get the chance to ease up on a turbo, those few seconds of coasting/drafting when your mate pulls in front of you and so on.
Did Geiger tonight, tough but not outrageously so - was within a couple of Watts on all the intervals. Could possibly have been a little higher so my FTP certainly isn't far out. Depending on the weather I might do Warlow at the weekend then it's the last week of big efforts of this plan (Sweet Spot mid vol 1) before the recovery week and in to volume 2!
Missed a session last night due to unexpected baby sitting duties, so it's 4 X 12 @ 95% for an hour followed by 30 mins of Z2/active recovery.
Got to earn tonight's curry.
Along the same lines, I reckon TSS is quite stingy on the turbo for long steady sessions. Always feels like a harder ride than it does outdoors and that the TSS would suggest. You don't get those little micro rests, and you don't get the little rises and falls in power help build up a higher NP. Also reckon a turbo is more fatiguing due to inherent characteristics of resistance (it's a bit like always riding into a headwind.) Anyway a custom 2hrs of z2 with 2x20 tempo on top for me, there are nicer ways of racking up 125 TSS.
Can you see others custom sessions? I've created Darwin + Taku 90 mins for tonight.
I also entered the STW TR team so it'll be on display!
I don't think so, its not showing in the TR feed for the STW team.
Not sure if in the App I can then choose to ride it if I stalk your feed.
Trevor?
It does look like there should be an opportunity to see them. There is a folder called workout library under the STW team but it only has 8 workouts in there and they all look like original ones from TR.
Fletcher on a Saturday night whilst my wife is at the pub . What have I become?
It's not what you have become it's what you will be 🙂
Eclipse tonight for me, put the decent bike on with stages to compare again and to have a proper position, unfortunately my Kickr seems to lost the plot a bit. Had thought it was hard last time when I attempted Eclipse, know why now as the intervals needing iro 330 watts was showing more 360 on the stages.
Bit of faffing about mid session with calibrating Kickr then stages, having a go controlling Kickr with stages then just dropping the % to get HR in the right ball park. Not had a problem before so hopefully just a glitch, going to try some steady state stuff tomorrow to try and get a definitive answer, technology bah.
It's not what you have become it's what you will be
on the flip side, I'm having trouble with where i was v where i am now post injury, not fast by any true sense of the word, but fit and happy
but now
zero motivation, reduced work hours meaning i cannot cycle commute in (for now, makes for nice base miles) a wife back in full time work (2/3 x 14 hour shifts) and 3x kids under 5 knackering me out on all fronts
its been 3 weeks since i even threw a leg over the bike, its cold, its windy, a massive dose of mtfu is needed, probably just need to go get dirty in the woods but all my mtbs are in various states of (dis)assembly
meh
mtfu dirtyrider. my motivation to go on a 100k ride with some CX this morning on an MTB - yep max aerobic effort for me - in 1 degrees and frost is avoiding pallisade, which is 3 times 2 x 10 OU's over 90 mins 8)
Dirtyrider, not easy coming back from injury motivation to just get out was the hardest thing for me as just felt so slow. If your fit and happy, fast will come as and when.
No wonder sweetspot training has been pretty hard for me, Kickr definately under reading by 10% now. Tried my wife's stages and was reading exactly the same as mine, which is a relief as worried my stages over reading.
Using the stages to power match the Kickr seems to be the way to go but not happy using decent bike so going to have to bodge an old road frame.
Shame about the kickr, hear that a lot. Wahoo will lend you a calibration kit which might be worth a try. Get the impression that a lot of the accuracy issues are down to the belt drive.
Oh and dirtyrider.. Get on with it! 🙂 Patience and a plan.
After half an hour of Allen key work, fine tuning the belt tension, got what seems to be a calibrated kickr. Legs are too fried to do a decent session after mtb today but it's looking good.
Cheers for the pointer mrblobby, seems the key is to calibrate it through the app then mess with tension until matches a trusted power meter.
The remainder of the sweetspot programme is going to be easier 🙂
Somewhat disappointed to hear all these problems with the Kickr, seems power meters in general are very sensitive (by nature I guess). Pity considering the cost of them.
To be honest I can live with it having a mechanical issue ie belt tension, something I can monitor and adjust if need be. Just glad I'm in a position that I can test against a known value, be a bit stuffed otherwise. The annoying thing is it was fine a month ago when I compared, I have moved it and done a recalibration in the meantime though.
Life was simpler and less frustrating without gadgets but when they work they are great...
Gadgetwise, really hoping Tacx can get it right with the Neo. By design it shouldn't have many of the issues that have troubled the kickr. And it's got real potential for a proper tuneable road feel too.
Somewhat disappointed to hear all these problems with the Kickr, seems power meters in general are very sensitive (by nature I guess). Pity considering the cost of them.
I didn't think the kickr was a proper PM, just does the virtual power thing based on wheel speed and ideal power curves.
Probably a Galena knocked down a few percent for me tonight, or maybe a custom mash up with a couple of long tempo blocks. Not looking forward to it much as knackered after a though weekend with a pair of sick kids 🙁
@mrblobby re the Neo, have a read of the monster comment thread under the DCRainmaker review (if you haven't already). Put me off enough to stick with my old dumb trainer and some power tap P1s.
Yes, need to catch up with that thread. I think it'll likely take them a bit of time to sort out the issues and get the firmware right, but in terms of technology and potential it's way ahead of the Kickr.
I was supposed to be doing palisade on Saturday but I did The Beast at Coed y Brenin and then Snowdon this weekend instead.
That makes up for it right?
Only if you did all of it at VO2max 😉
Keeler needle for me tonight. It took a bit of concentration to stay steady on the ever increasing power on my dumb trainer but got the hang of it. Didn't hurt too much either which has me considering another FTP test 😕
Tunnabora done tonight, after Kickr tension adjustment only 3 watts ave difference, nice to have a proper sweetspot session as I was struggling on previous ones with the extra 10% loading !
Something going to have to keep an eye on but know easy enough to sort.
Carillon tonight - forty minutes in the sweet spot zone. I thought that with the single minute of recovery between sets 1 & 2 then again between 3 & 4 I'd struggle as with threshold intervals often needing five minutes recovery but it wasn't as bad as I expected. At least it's just Taku next 😆
A very dark place done tonight, very nearly killed me and the last interval was below target power, but wow you just know that something that uncomfortable must be doing you so much good. 8)
Taku for me also, but nearly all - 22 mins done - in the TT position which was good.
A very dark place just looks evil 😯
Jepson for me, 3 weeks into Sweet Spot 2 and my first few workouts with Stages.
Turns out I might be a bit of a stomper as I'm having a hard time keeping my power stable.
Guess it help with technique?!
Tallac this morning (yes morning!) Didn't realise it had such a short warm-up so struggled with the last effort and needed to drop the power a little.
@Haze - if you feel you are a stomper then find some workouts that address your pedalling technique, it doesn't take long to get you pedalling smoothly and not bouncing around on the bike.
Don't know how everyone else is feeling but I'm definitely glad of the rest week next week! The last few minutes of Tallac last night was an exercise in grim determination.
Haze - I've been using a Stages ofor a while now and used TR quite a bit without too. The Stages will always be a bit more erratic than the Virtual Power and it does jump around a fair bit. Even with 3sec smoothing on I still find it does it.
For that reason, I have Lap Normalised Power on my head unit and press the lap button at the start of each phase. I've found it marries up perfectly with the target bar at the top of the screen!
Cheers, to be honest I expect it to jump around a bit but when I really focus on smoothing things out I can hold it reasonably well, even notice a fair jump in output.
Guess it's emphasising flaws in my natural technique, I'm not bouncing but seems I'm heavy on the down stroke and neglecting the rest.
Opportunities for improvement!
@everyone - that's what I was like this morning 😳 Two minutes in to the last effort I needed to drop the power as I wouldn't have made it to the end otherwise. With the poor weather forecast for tomorrow I might actually do a weekend turbo session, in this case Pallisade.
Guess it's emphasising flaws in my natural technique, I'm not bouncing but seems I'm heavy on the down stroke and neglecting the rest.
Also, dont forget the PM will only register on the left so there is bound to be a spike on every reveloution.
This was evidenced when I did Bald Knob on Tuesday with some single leg efforts...I was putting out 290w with my left leg but only about 80w with my right (not fully unclipped on the trailing leg, rather 90%/10%)
Haven't figured out how to get through the ILT's yet, probably just get on with it, ignore the zero power reading from the right leg and focus on eliminating the knock.
I really benefited from training with virtual power, but the power meter is telling me a lot more of what's actually going on...
.I was putting out 290w
You were putting out 290w on a 70% FTP effort? And I know you aren't a big chap....
Balls, as I know your coming into Vets next year I have work to do....
It took me a good few sessions to get ILTs sorted so don't worry about it too much. The hardest part for me since I'm using Look pedals is reclipping at each transition.
Haven't figured out how to get through the ILT's yet, probably just get on with it, ignore the zero power reading from the right leg and focus on eliminating the knock.
Thats a good reason for using NP really, it balances it out
You were putting out 290w on a 70% FTP effort? And I know you aren't a big chap....Balls, as I know your coming into Vets next year I have work to do....
Ha....that was only trying to keep a steady cadence while pedalling predominantly with my left leg. When balancing it out it was only at 70% FTP
Plus, as much wattage as I can put out (i'm essentially a sprinter) for 6 secs or so, I certainly can't hold it for long....I'm a bit of a 1 lap wonder hahaha
You were putting out 290w on a 70% FTP effort? And I know you aren't a big chap....
Actually, it might have been closer to the 250w rather than 290
Thats a good reason for using NP really, it balances it out
Cheers Gaz, I'd stopped using my head unit on the turbo but will look into it.
(i'm essentially a sprinter) for 6 secs or so, I certainly can't hold it for long....I'm a bit of a 1 lap wonder
Thanks for that bit of strategic info 8) 😀
Thats a good reason for using NP really, it balances it out
Yep.
I find my NP is much higher in races - over 20% higher - than on the Turbo no matter how hard the session, but I guess thats only to be expected...
[img] 
[/img]
Thanks for that bit of strategic info
Ha....work in progress 😛
Yep.I find my NP is much higher in races - over 20% higher - than on the Turbo no matter how hard the session, but I guess thats only to be expected...
I'm inclined to say thats just the Turbo effect...hot room, lack of adrenalin etc
Yeah, still producing only 450w at 55% FTP in less than ideal conditions during Base is something I'll have to cope with.... 😉
Just finished a slightly hungover Fletcher following a work night out. Just managed to finish it before my boy woke from his lunch nap . Let's see what it does to the hangover
So I'm just getting to grips with TR. I've not got a power meter so am using virtual power with HR and speed/cadence and a Fluid 2.
I've done a lab max and sub max test so have 'official' FTP, LTHR and HR bands (amongst a host of data!) and am trying to centre winter base training on that. I've found a tick box in the TR profile to use HR based workouts but it doesn't really seem to have done much - I was wondering if anyone here has any insight into how to make this work?
FWIW and as an aside, I've found the TR power guess better than Zwifts. TR 8 min test gave me an FTP of 228 watts; Zwifts 20 min test gave 178 watts (!) and the lab test FTP is 270 watts. Im 75kg. With the limited,suing around I've done, I think TR is more of a tool than Zwift (currently).
Anyway, any advice re HR centred training would be appreciated. Last night I just ignored to power band and kept to my HR zones (although to be fair they were close) but it'd be nice to be able to use HR as the driving metric (perhaps too Luddite these days?!)
The point about the FTP values isn't their absolute accuracy but their consistency within the particular training tool, so if you only ever bother about FTP within Trainerroad then there is no point comparing that value with one obtained in Zwift or in a lab. Of course it's reassuring if they are reasonably close.
From the figures you give it seems like you might have the input data for your turbo wrong so TR gives an incorrect output. Again consistency is key - use the same resistance setting, the same pressure in the rear tyre (use a digital meter like the Topeak rather than the one on your pump), the same pressure between the tyre and the turbo's roller.
The difference between using power and HR is that power measures what you are doing whereas HR measures how your body is coping with what you have done. Training by HR zones is fine for steady state stuff, the Z2 & Z3 long steady rides, though even here you will suffer from cardiac drift as cumulative fatigue sets in and at the end of a ride you will be going slower for the same HR output. Speed on the road is directly related to power input not HR output.
I've taken this ride https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2635133-Carson-45 from TR as an example (purely because it's the most recent at the time I'm writing this). The last effort is a bit wayward so we'll ignore that for this discussion but the first three are reasonable. Notice how the red line for the HR gradually rises both during the effort and across efforts whereas line for the power output is reasonably steady (ignoring the minor fluctuations which look a lot worse than they really are). More importantly look at the HR during the rest intervals - the rider's heart is doing nearly as much work during those as during the efforts themselves.
A second example, this time of short explosive efforts https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2635126-Dana notice how even though the power output follows the target power the HR bears no resemblance to what the rider is doing, it ramps up to 170 and stays up there even though the rider's output is varying by 40% or so. Obviously for whatever reason the rider failed to finish the session but the point holds.
Before I started with TR I used HR zones using the workouts feature on my Garmin, it was just really hard work to do anything consistently especially with short sprint bursts where the effort was over before my heart had responded.
One of TR's support guys - trevorduise(?) posts on here. TR's support is pretty good too so they will be able to help you as well.
The only advantage to using HR for you with TR seems to be "getting in the right zone" better than the TR estimated power. The easy answer is to ignore HR, do a fresh 8 or 20 minute test using TR and use that value as your FTP. TR never really claimed to be "accurate", but more be consistent. You'll find power (virtual or real) a far better informer of effort, especially as the intervals get shorter. There are a lot of reasons to use "power" rather than HR and a quick Google should pop up a lot of info. As an example, you'll also get better information as to your week to week load and a whole host of other things that come with training with "power".
Or get a Power Meter. Can be had for around 400 quid with some of the current deals and is a lot less faff than worrying about getting a consistent turbo setup.
less faff than worrying about getting a consistent turbo setup.
exactly why i went down the stages/dm turbo - no faff
I have npn TR depression. I missed a session last night - just too tired / children conspired against me and I new if I tried I wouldn't do it justice, so hit the beer instead.
Its supposed to be rest week next week with me finishing sweet spot with Mary Austin tomorrow. I'm tempted instead to do last nights workout - Lamark - tomorrow and Mary A Tuesday instead, then doing the rest week until the following Tuesday when I start Build with a 20min Test.
Sounds like a good plan Kryton. I've found that as the plans build up I need to ensure that "proper riding" doesn't get in the way and it also helps to be flexible as to the indicated days but I try to keep to the indicated order of workouts. With the bad weather this weekend I might do the TR sessions instead of risking the high winds.
@mrblobby & @dirtyrider True a power meter obviates the need for a consistent setup to a degree but £400+ vs a moment's attention to detail is quite a hit.
Yes I do the same whitestone. I normally ride Sunday's losing that days TR session, but this week various kids duties remove the opportunity.
Its going to take a bit of commitment to spent 1:30 in the pain cave Tuesday after work doing Mary A....
I accept that the better solution is to buy a power meter but thats just not possible at the moment. I'm pretty sure I can balance the virtual power with the heat rate zones, just wish I could make HR the driving metric for a workout.
Re: power and HR - I am of the understanding that what we are trying to do in the HR zones / power zones is work specific aspects of our physiology to drive innate exercise/stress adaption. In that respect isn't the better measure the one that is measuring physiology - ie. HR? It strikes me that power is the output and measuring that / training to that risks ignoring what the physiology is doing. Using whitestones workout above - to maintain power as you tire results in a greater physiological demand so HR goes up to maintain a set and level wattage. As I understand it that can result in crossing over physiological zones (eg. endurance into tempo) whilst trying to keep the power within the set zone - which would change the adaption you are trying to affect. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick completely?
I have an old bike permanently hooked up to the turbo so even if trainerroad virtual power is way off, the set up is very consistent allowing comparisons to be made. The only thing I do is ensure the psi of the tyre is the sa for each session. Means doing a session is quick too - no faffing about changing wheels etc.
Shortbread - likewise. Same bike remains hooked up over winter and PSI kept constant. Makes for easier sessions.
Infidel, I was under the impression that HR may vary depending on freshness, temperature, stress levels etc. whereas power is a more consistent factor to measure against.
HR also takes a while to adjust to your interval, probably okay for longer steady state intervals but less so for short sharper work as the interval is over by the time your HR has adjusted.
In the absence of a power meter I'd use virtual power set to the FTP given by 8 minute test in TrainerRoad, your lab FTP will have no bearing since your using an different set up and actually measuring speed against an assumed resistance (the power curve of your trainer).
Likewise for Zwift, I'd use the FTP given by the software in isolation from anything else.
@infidel Haze has it right - your HR isn't just dependent upon the effort that you are making but also your current physiological state, it's a rather blunt instrument when compared to power. It's not as blunt as perceived effort but if you've got the chance to use power then that will be more accurate. You don't need to buy a power meter, so long as you use the same system throughout a training regimen, the actual figures don't matter it's just the power relative to the system's standard (FTP or whatever) that matters.
HR zone training was fine when it was all we (as amateur riders) had, much better than the guesswork that went before. Power is consistent in that pedalling at a given cadence in a particular gear will produce the same power whether you are fresh, tired, recovering from illness, a kilo heavier than yesterday, etc.
Don't worry about balancing power and HR zones, while they are similar riding on a turbo produces a different (usually higher) HR response to riding outside as there is basically no easing up or coasting. Cardiac drift is the principal reason why training to HR zones is a blunt instrument. The physiological zones (endurance, tempo, etc) are [b]input[/b] zones not response zones, training is the attempt to bring your response in to line with the input - fitness in simple terms.
Guys, thanks for the time and advice. Just spent an hour on the phone with a mate who has bee training with HR and power for years. He's also a physio so had a good understanding of the underlying science. Between him and you guys I now properly understand. He had a look at my trainerroad files and the Vo2 Max and submit test results and showed me where they met - its pretty much as you all said; although the numbers for FTP are different they are reflecting the same thing so I'm going to work with the virtual power bearing the HR in mind as second line.
Krypton - thanks for the pointer. I am actually saving up for the BePro pedals. I've been offered a quark saturn for not much more that the powertap here but would rather wait a bit and buy something new with a warranty and which I can transfer between bikes. DCRainmaker seems to think the BePros are OK so I thought I'd wait a bit.
Double dose of Sufferlandria this morning. TGTTOS followed up with Extra Shot.
Lovely!
Did Palisade today - I was going to do it yesterday but a shopping trip to Leeds got in the way 🙄 Definitely hard work - I was thinking of backing right off or omitting the last interval altogether but gave it a go and hung in there to the end. The power was fluctuating a bit during the last interval - I can normally stick within a Watt or two of the target but was up and down by about 10 Watts either side for that one.
Now a recovery week before things ramp up again - Sweet Spot Mid Volume 2 😳
Whitestone, your not helping me... I'm a week behind on sweetspot, Warlow was tough enough yesterday. Very wet, windy and muddy mtb today was a good reminder that I do actually enjoy riding bikes 🙂
I did Warlow today. It wasn't easy, but not that hard really. I bumped it up by 5% for the last 9 minute set, and 10% for the last hard minute. So, I'm new at this really - does this mean my FTP is just set too low, or is this workout not supposed to be really hard (it is base training after all)?
I missed out on Warlow last week as I went for a ride with my wife - getting out for a ride on the road or fell shows the reason why you are doing the training.
The "over" efforts on Palisade aren't quite at the same level as those on Warlow but do go on and you need to hang in there ... I'm actually a week behind on the plan as I was recovering from a chest infection when I should have started. Given I should have done Palisade yesterday and Maclure today I might bring the rest week's sessions forward by a day so I've got a bit more flexibility next weekend.
@gray - depends where in the plan (if you are following one) you are, on the SP mid volume it comes towards the end of a month of effort so feels hard. Also if you've only done one FTP test then it's possible then it isn't entirely accurate (within Trainerroad) as you won't have got the test right, doing another test might realign things - you'll be both fitter and be better at the test.
Whitestone, I ride every day either commuting or just messing around in winter and find the rigid nature of a plan difficult to follow so end up following the order but not always the days. I've always been more of a sprinter and never done much turbo work before so find the constant efforts interesting... It's a big mental thing for me not to give up, use an erg trainer so handily don't get chance or I would.
Gray, as above re FTP but for me sweetspot is hard but as they say it's not that fatiguing, ie hurts a bit while doing it but can do it again the next day, and the next.
However I did have the thought why ? Not getting paid to do this, never likely to and all this work to hopefully get a few podiums if I'm lucky. Then sod it, why not 🙂
Virginia for me tonight , plugging away at the very beginning of traditional base low volume . All going well really .
Thanks both. Yep, I'm doing it as part of the sweet spot base plan. Mainly following the low volume variant, but been doing about 4 - 8 hours of low intensity outdoors on top (sometimes dropping the weekend turbo as a result). I've done the 8 minute test twice. Seemed to judge it pretty well considering - was only just able to hang on, but very constant throughout and between the efforts. Probably have got fitter, and also have realised that I did a firmware update a couple of weeks ago that could have messed with the trainer. Have drifted my FTP setting up by 10 watts since starting the plan. Will retest in a couple of weeks I guess. Of course, it's possible that I got clean looking tests by simply not killing myself enough!