TrainerRoad - STW approved sessions

Going to do my first FTP test on Friday or sat as having a rest week after five cx race weeks on the trot so should be fresh enough to have a good result. I am thinking prob do 8minute test. So I essentially go as hard as I can for the 8mins and then it does a transfer to an hour FTP? I've arbitrarily set my FTP as 225 at the moment, but I normally do workouts at over 100%, not sure whether to ramp it up a bit

ferrals, 8 mins hard enough to make you think you're going to vomit, 10 mins of easy spinning, then another 8 minutes hard enough to actually vomit. If the bucket's not full you've not tried hard enough 🙂

I think it then does the sums to work out the average of the two efforts and sets the FTP to be 90% of that average.

Are you doing the Trainerroad test? If so it's 2x8 minutes after a warm up then average then 90%? of it. If you're above 100% for long periods I'd increase it a bit; if you're above for short periods but tiring it might be about right. As has been discussed previously there is a bit of an art to pacing and so the first few times you will probably start to hard or too soft. Last year my ftp went 264-278-285-300 over the summer and at least some of that was just practice.

mrblobby - Member
ferrals, 8 mins hard enough to make you think you're going to vomit, 10 mins of easy spinning, then another 8 minutes hard enough to actually vomit. If the bucket's not full you've not tried hard enough

You lightweight needing a bucket, on Sunday's race I was swallowing my own vomit by lap 3!

Yeah it's the trainer road test. I've been putting it up by about 10% and even that's been seeming easy - though before starting trainerroad my training approach has been hard as I can for as long as I can so when I'm not doing that it seems odd.

Just did the 8min test for the first time. Didn't quite get the intervals right and ended up pushing hard the final 2 mins, got close to puking....:)

Result 266 based on kickr, stravas estimate based on my last weeks 6 weeks power data was 264 based on stages. Not a bad starting point.

Watts/kg would be more meaningful.

3.69w/kg

Is anyone using one of the new Elite Volano trainers with TrainerRoad who can share the settings they are using? It does not show up in the list of Elite trainers for virtual power etc. I am new to both trainers and TrainerRoad so struggling with setup.

I'm consciously avoiding w/kg on this thread as I like the fact that it's not competitive... for all you know I could be 120kg 😀

It's still not an absolute indicator. Mine via TR fairly low for someone whose racing regularly with decent results in class, but I can't hand on to a cat 4 pack for toffee yet put out higher average watts during club rides. For example, my recent bodged calculations result in the fact I might be as much as 40w over my TR FTP away from the mancave.

You have to remember to account for the static nature, temps, setup / resistance etc that varys between your setup and outside. Also, my physiology means I'm far better at long sub FTP efforts than I am at vo2 Max, so I've reached a point where the 8 min test is sub-beneficial to my real FTP.

I know some of that sounds just wrong but I can't work it out if it is.

Sounds right. It's more about having an appropriate power profile for your discipline (and weight and drag and whatever else is relevant.) 60MP (or FTP) is a bit of an artificial number, especially on a turbo.

TR does show a sort of power profile. Would be an interesting if they used that to scale the workouts, rather than just base everything off FTP. E.g. if you're a really strong sprinter, then some of the short busty intervals just based on a percentage of FTP may not be hard enough, whereas for an endurance rider with a flat power profile they may be too hard.

They do have the Coggan profile test on there. I did that and although it suprised me a bit I used the resulting profile on XC strategy this year and it worked. Turns out I'm almost perfectly profile for XC & XC endurance, and disastrously profiled for Crits. We know that to be true, so hence I'm now not banging on the wrong door.

So it is accurate on terms of the overall profile and we know the plans work to raise out FTP and certainly in my case my tolerance levels. But what we are saying here is that use your TR ftp on the TR setup,

Turns out I'm almost perfectly profile for XC & XC endurance, and disastrously profiled for Crits.

Because that is where your training is focused? Long XC rides, long club rides, etc.

I did that and although it suprised me a bit I used the resulting profile on XC strategy this year and it worked.

Interesting that. What did you do?

Kryton57 - Where do you find the suggested Power Profle for XC racing? All I can see is World Champ, World Class, Exceptional, Excellent, Very Good, Good, Moderate and Fair

Gazhurst... http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-profiling

Was also reading this the other evening which is quite interesting... http://www.rideabout.co/how-to-prepare-train-for-xc-racing/

Lol. Gazhurst - you know we race together right? And for that reason - MrBlobby - I'm not putting my new XC race strenghts & weaknesses up here, Gaz is one of my 2016 target riders 😉

Gaz - I'm referring to the "H.A. & A.C. Power Profile Test" workout in Trainerroad. If you perform that and compare your results with the categorised summaries in thier "Training with Power" book, it gives you a profile of the type of rider you are, strengths, weaknesses and what type of events you should be targeting.

I did this and changed my race strategy from mid-year and started seeing better results based on the fact I wasn't flogging myself to death in the wrong places.

Of course, you can choose to do that, train your weaknesses etc interpret it how you like... a lot of people "know" what to do - I needed to be told and it worked for me.

Edit: in a bizarre twist I realised youd asked me a different question Gaz and I was just about to list the same website MrBlobby pointed to up there ^^ Theres another I found I'll try to find it...

Got a second Honeywell fan recently and last night attached it to the roof of the garage so it fires down onto my back whilst riding - very effective - was a bit too cold before I warmed up.

Do we????? Do you win??? Everyone else does when they race me 😯

Lol, no but I'm not far behind you. I'm sure I've got you right -KTM at MSG & Beastway this year?

Yeah thats me....what do you ride?

Yeah thats me....what do you ride?

What does he ride?! There seems to be a daily thread on that subject 🙂

I look at all these sources and at my Allen and Coggan book and then go out and do 4 months of Z2 followed by 2 months of intervals plus some technical XC and some long rides. Maybe I should start doing some of these complicated workouts.

Some interesting observations there Kryton!

I'll have to have a quick google for "Andrew Coggan’s Rider Abilities Profile"

I've ridden a couple of the new Sufferfest films at my guesstimate FTP after a summer away from hard sessions so I'm starting to get a feel for it again.

Probably give Rubber Glove a bash at the weekend so I can get a "real" FTP figure to work from.

Gaz - Anthem 29 LP shirt - we talked briefly after we both bailed at Ickworth. I'm not in your category so no need to be nervous until you turn 40 / enter Vets 😀

'Chef - I'm not a coach, its just that when I found out which profile I fell into and raced accordingly suddenly I was top finishing top 10 locally instead of 13/14/15. It was all about where and how I applied my effort. I was also able to pick out riders and know where in the race I would be able to pass, rather than trying exhaustively in the heat of the moment.

Importantly, as I suspect we all know raising FTP helps across the board.

Importantly, as I suspect we all know raising FTP helps across the board.

Can do, unless it's at the expense of something more important.

I look at all these sources and at my Allen and Coggan book and then go out and do 4 months of Z2 followed by 2 months of intervals plus some technical XC and some long rides. Maybe I should start doing some of these complicated workouts.

"Complicated workouts", they're all variations on pretty basic themes just to keep things interesting on the turbo 🙂

Gaz - Anthem 29 LP shirt - we talked briefly after we both bailed at Ickworth. I'm not in your category so no need to be nervous until you turn 40 / enter Vets

Ah I remember...well, to fuel your target, I go into Vets as of the 1st January 😥

mrblobby - Member

Gazhurst... http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-profiling

Was also reading this the other evening which is quite interesting... http://www.rideabout.co/how-to-prepare-train-for-xc-racing/

I think the answer is Sweet Spot Base vol 1, but after my first year on a road bike, I am realising that my sprint could be better and also improve my endurance riding at tempo.

I started Sweet Spot Base 1 low volume in the spring, but did not complete it as I did not religiously follow the plan due to family life, and switched to riding outdoors and joined my local club when the weather improved.

My normal garage fix is TrainerRoad mixed with SF Angels, AVDP or Downward Spiral when I really want to test myself.

Is it worth still mixing these videos up, try something new for a change or just work through and complete Sweet Spot Base this time? I am still getting one road session in per week, 25 or 60 miles depending if it is an evening or weekend ride.

Appreciate your thoughts

Ah I remember...well, to fuel your target, I go into Vets as of the 1st January

The hardest category of course... 8) You were/are a fair bit quicker than me but I'm hoping not to be beset with virus this winter - I had December and Feb off the bike last winter - and improve up to March. The only reason I said I was aiming at was you have a fairly obvious bike.

According to the numbers I'm fitter today than the day of the first MSG this year, so there is hope as I build toward March - see you there!

And back to TR - just completed Donner, pleased to have managed the whole of the last interval on the drops with elbows tucked - get in!

Just done Goddard using Kickr in erg mode with a stages recording on a separate device. Top graph shows Stages and bottom Kickr. Ave pwr Stages 245, Kickr 242. Hadn't realised Goddard included single leg drills so didn't do them as obviously this would have skewed the figures massively.
More than happy with carrying on using just the Kickr after seeing this, what this experiment has shown me that while the Kickr being reactive is slower to show peaks and troughs in comparison to the Stages it doesn't really affect the overall result. The spikes in the last two intervals are down to a big jump in cadence and the Kickr resistance catching up.
Did this after once again reading about Kickr misreading issues, I seem to have a good one 🙂

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FTP test for me on Tuesday next week.

First one since acquiring my new Kickr. As far as erg mode goes, will this effect the 20 minute test workout? Or will it be automatically disabled?

It'll be automatically disabled for the 20 minute bit, but on for the warm up etc. (Assuming you are using TrainerRoad.)

Ah thats good to know thank you.

I like to do my own warm up before the 20 mins instead so I guess i'll just dissable it for that particular workout.

Will be interesting to compare my results to my regular 'dumb@ trainer compared to the kickr.

In that case I think you can just (all from within TrainerRoad) set the Kickr to be in resistance mode for the whole workout. Alternatively you could do what you like to warm up, then start the TR workout, and skip to just before the 20 minute test period (I think you just click on that time point on the desktop app at least). I'm not 100% sure that it would calculate and update your FTP if you've only partially completed the workout, but I imagine it probably would. You could always check with TR support, or else you could calculate it yourself from the recorded data, and manually update in TR later, so you won't 'lose' the result of your effort whatever happens!

rsvktm, interesting data there. Was that running in erg mode? How does the NP compare with the Stages?

I did wonder if the kickr was just reporting power based some speed equation or actually measuring it using strain gauges. The smoothness and lack of peaks when accelerating makes it look like it's doing the former, but then the dips at the end of the interval looks more like the latter.

Just did the 8 min FTP, got 302, so being a scrawny runt have a power to weight ratio of 5.4. Have a feeling this means trainerroad was over estimating but at least the workouts will be calibrated. Was pleased with how well I paced myself, could have gone a fraction harder on the first one, went a bit too hard to start on the second to compensate and went back down to the level of my first and held that for the 8 minutes

Nice one ferrals, it doesn't really matter what the figure is as long as consistent.
mrblobby, looking at NP - 284 for stages, 274 Kickr. TSS 200 and 186.4. There is a differance and not unexpected seeing that the Kickr loses the peaks when I spin up for intervals, however doesn't appear to degrade over the session.
Don't use the Kickr for the big intervals anyway as don't like to sprint fixed in and really don't like the frame twisting, turbo for me is to improve my aerobic fitness so if the figures are slightly low will just give me incentive 😉

Ignore those TSS figures, don't use Garmin normally for eval, just easier to screenshot the figures.
For some reason my FTP Is not showing right in Garmin and as I don't use TSS normally, use Strava fitness and freshness, I didn't click that the TSS was far too much...

By the way, trainerroad suggested my LTHR was 155, but I think that's too low? In a cx race I'll spend the entire race at about 180, which I don't think would be possible if my threshold was 155?

I noticed that TrainerRoad suggested a lower threshold hr for me as well but since I train with virtual power I just left it at what I had before.

Yes, me too. The LTHR estimate from my 8 minute test was daft, something like 160 when I have done 3 hour rides at an average of 180. I've a suspicion that my HR on the trainer actually tends to be a bit different from outside, although at the moment that's just based on perception of effort (I only have power readings from the trainer, not outside). I guess I should do some 8 or 20 minute tests outside, but until I have power data to go with it I can't be arsed.

Strava suggested that my threshold was 166 and anerobic was over 18something which I think is more realistic.

I'm going to jump into one of the cx training plans - will probably mix up mid and high level. not racing again till the 29th so I'll do my standard (minimal) taper for the last week gives me 2 weeks of a training plan. Best of starting at the begining of the plan or jumping in the middle? I'm guess they slowly ramp up and as I've raced the last 5 weeks my cx fitness can take jumping into the middle?

Just got up for an FTP test. Every bone in my body wants to go back to bed

Glad I did. Just a smudge over a 5% increase since 5 weeks ago!

Hi all,

Based on some of the help on here I think I'm going to start a sustained power build plan. Is there a way of incorporating videos into the plan/s?

Thanks...

@edenvalleyboy, not sure what you mean?

TR allows you to use YouTube or media players at the same time, so you get all the session details at the bottom the screen and the film in the rest of the space.

The actual plans are not based on any particular films, unless you opt for the Sufferfest plan.

@TSC I think you've answered my question thanks. I've only ever followed Sufferfest videos on the turbo.

Ok, so, I can watch a cycling video on YouTube at the same time but it won't be related to power efforts like Sufferfest has been.

Any recommendations then of good videos to watch? Or do people watch cycling unrelated videos?

Cheers...

Try taking a look at the UCI YouTube channel.
You can watch reruns of most rounds of the XC World Cup along with World Cup CX races and some road racing as well if that's your thing.

@bumpy - Cheers. Sounds great.

Not a roadie, but I had noticed with Sufferfest that I didn't mind what discipline I watched as long as it took my mind of the pain! 😀

That's exactly what I find as well.
Usually by about 1/2 or 3/4 though a session I end up ignoring the videos anyway!

For those posters who've been on this thread a while - do you get annoyed at newbies asking the same questions without looking for the answers first?

I've just started scrolling through the start of this thread for more info and seen the answers to my questions on the first page! Doh....

I dont think you can watch youtube at the same time if you use an ipad - so I end up precariously balancing the ipad on top of the laptop where I watch UCI re-runs.

Have bailed on real riding today as I'm too busy trying to catch up on work to ride and clean my bike 🙁 will either be doing Elephants+1 or Richardson+1 before lunch. Probably the former I reckon. So much for this being my rest week!

It goes in cycles, this thread is now in its third winter so it's natural that each time the dark nights approach the same questions get asked by "newbies".

There are, hidden in the pages, some excellent thoughts on training that are well worth searching out.

I keep meaning to read through this thread from the start one day when it's quiet at work but I'm not sure that I can bring myself to manage all 1400+ posts!

From what I've read of it so far though there's some pretty good pointers and advice in here.

@edenvalleyboy I was in the same situation as yourself last winter, with (now) 41 pages of posting there's a lot to wade through. The thread is a mixture of "Did X today" and questions/answers about particular plans or kit required. Sometimes you don't know how to phrase the question so might find the answer without realising it.

Nature of the beast though: we have short memories, the internet doesn't!

One thing to note (and I can't remember if it's been mentioned in the thread) is that your other riding can have an effect on the training sessions - I've commuted by bike every day this week and had to cut short my session on Thursday as I was just drained and didn't feel I could give justice to the final quarter of the routine. Rest is just as important as the training.

@whitestone - I can see how rest is important - started the first proper 'sustained power build' session yesterday and can see/feel that if I give it my full effort each time I'll need to allow proper recovery days too.

I think it was you who recommended that training program - it definitely felt like it was the kind of session I'm looking for...in a perverse kind of way 😀

@edenvalleyboy Could well have been - age induced forgetfulness! Training is (or should be) hard but to allow for that you need to rest. Many don't put enough effort in on the training days but don't rest enough on the rest days. I.e. on a scale of 1 - 10, training days should be 8 or 9 and rest days 2 or 3, if your training days are 6 and your rest days 4 or 5 then you aren't going to get the desired effect.

My approach is that, where possible, I use rest days to do a different type of excersize at a gentle level, e.g rather than a recovery ride, go for a recovery jog. Stops muscles getting too 1-dimensional and hence injury prone. Of course a lot of the time rest days mean I don't do anything excersize wise as I have to catch up on other stuff.

@ferrals - something that I've found that constantly keeps injuries away too is stretching - I'm a bit evangelical about it. Proper stretching routines on my non biking days seems to work wonders....highly recommend this book.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stretching-Bob-Anderson/dp/0936070226

Hi all, aforementioned Nooooob here. Just completed my first 8 minute test. Not sure how i feel really. Sweated buckets, and followed the prompts of 'go hard but not so much so you blow up'. felt tired at the end, but not dead...

i got a very low FTP, but i hope this is a related to set up? ie not much point comparing myself to others...? please..? 🙂 or do i have to do it all again?

I have joined the Singletrack group too. Martininsweden is my name.

ta!

EDIT: Just realised that i had it set as my trainer was Tacx Satori 1. That relates to the resistance number i use.... i actually used number 2 for the workout.. oh... should i do it again?

The Bob Andersson book linked to above is excellent, as much as a book about stretching can be.

Email trainer-road. They can adjust it. It does look very low, that sort of power is just ticking over and spinning along on my kinetic with an Inride power sensor.

Mines the workout just before yours...

+1 for the Bob Anderson book, I bought mine in 1984!

cheers Jam bo will do.

Any suggestions as to which turbo trainer I should go for that doesn't require electricity? I notice they recommend the Kurt Kinetic Road and the Cycleops Jet Fluid pro but they both seem pretty pricey.

The Bob Andersson book linked to above is excellent, as much as a book about stretching can be.

bought one...

Got a reply from trainer road withinhalf an hour of sending it, very impressed.

"You are correct, the number next to the name of the trainer relates to the resistance of the trainer. You always want to make sure that it corresponds with the resistance level you've set your trainer to. We also recommend not using those lower power levels, since you can top out pretty easily. In this 8 minute test, your cadence was really high and you were at the maximum power that the trainer could give you. If you use a setting like 5, you'll be able to push a little harder, and maybe get a better, more accurate FTP test.
I'd recommend re-trying the FTP test once you're well rested, and doing it in resistance level 5 or similar."

8 minute test on thursday for me then!

I woke up this morning feeling really exctied about something I was going to do this eve - realised the only thing i could be excited about was an evening in on trainerroad. 😳

Only decision is whether to do elephants (+1 or 2) or one of the 'the priest'/ 'the owl' type sessions.

Any thoughts on which is better for cx training - got two weeks training then a week mini-taper before my next race. the owl type work-outs are on the cx plan, but i cant help thinking solid block of higher exertion in elephant mimics the all out burn of the early laps.

Jepson is good session for CX style intervals, but the Owl also looks "fun".

Personally I found the Sufferfest session Revolver the best way to prep for CX

got two weeks training then a week mini-taper before my next race

Why not just do the last 3 weeks of the CX plan?

I sort of am. but I did Richardson plus 1 on Sat so thought I'd swich things round and do my next r.a.b. (Xalibu plus2) on Thurs and something else this eve. I'm going to switch out the aerobic stuf on weds for a jog though, the high intensity stuff on Sat will come from real world cx training and the longer sunday endurnce from a mtb ride.

Is there a science reason for the order of their high intensity workouts? I assumed it was just high intensity overy oter day and aerobic the days in between.

That Jepson workout looks good, mimicking a race quite nicely.

Apologies if this has been asked, but this thread is massive!

Tried TR last night and really enjoyed it so I'm looking at the sweet spot base plans. I'd really like to do a mid volume one, but as I'm racing cross through the winter I don't want to hamper my performance too much.

I'm only really racing cx for fun, my main objective is to get my 3rd cat road licence this season and do well in some races. However, I'd still like to go well in the cx races. Question is, can you mix and match low/mid/high plans depending on what I'm doing that specific week - e.g. week 1 low wk 2 high wk 3 low etc.?

Thank you

The plans are a guide really, a bit like buying a ready to bake cake mix rather than sourcing and mixing the ingredients yourself. I did the SP low volume last winter and it felt quite cohesive in that each workout felt like it was a logical step from the last. I'm doing the mid volume this time but taking the weekends as they come - this last weekend I did one of the workouts whereas the weekend before I was out on the bike as it was nice weather.

They do take a bit more out of you than you might think - I commuted 21Km each way every day last week at a steady pace and the extra effort of the TR sessions was really hard work. The weather this week is putting that idea out of the window though.

If you know what you want out of a training session then there's no reason why you have to follow a plan exactly, you can search the workouts for duration, intensity, etc. If you ask here there's a few like The Swedish chef who've done a lot who'll be able to point you in the right direction.

Just finished Ericsson - wasn't too bad, even managed ILTs for most of the intended intervals.

Did Xalibu + 2 after work. Brutal, I couldn't keep up the initial high power wind ups each interval after the first few.

Joined the stw team, but it says I'm a private member? Some people seem to be up as there forum names and public members - can't work out how to change it?

Just finished Ericsson as well, I actually found it quite hard! I was a far way off the power for the ILTs (don't mind that so much) but I managed to hold the power whilst doing the cadence drills.

I suppose it doesn't help that I'm not 100% well at the minute...

8 minute test tonight, first one with the Stages which has averaged 10% lower than my VP (comparing both over 5 workouts).

Managed to make up the 'shortfall' and a little extra on top to make up for maybe being a bit under last time. Hopefully a bit more to come once I learn to smooth out those graphs and develop a smoother style/balance.

Saw my ticker hit the dizzy heights of 194, it hasn't been there for some time!

@everyone - my problem with ILTs (apart from being c**p) is changing between legs - Look style pedals don't help. They (ILTs) do highlight a weakness in my right leg though so need to work on that.

I've found that you need to tighten your shoes to a very snug level otherwise you get a clunking from your foot moving back and forth in the shoe which can mask any problems in the transitions through the pedalling stroke.

I've signed up with the hope to get a decent winter base ready for the spriing. So decided tonight I will be doing my FTP test, any pointers?

Once this is done I guess the next step will be a base program. Any difference between the sweet spot and the traditional base plan?

If you've not done an FTP test before just give it your best shot - the first couple of tests are as much about learning how to do the test as getting a good score.

Sweet spot or traditional? The blurb on the TR site basically boils down to: if you've got time and want to be thorough use a traditional plan otherwise do the Sweet Spot.