TrainerRoad - STW approved sessions

How do you know how much tension to have on the tyre from the turbo?

A bit of guesswork (well the way I do it) - it should be firm enough that you don't get any slippage but loose enough that you aren't deforming the tyre.

You then adjust the resistance via whatever mechanism your turbo has. I use virtual power so have set the resistance to a level where I can spin reasonably quickly in the lowest gears to get the required power for the rest intervals, if that makes sense.

id start at the beginning, tyre pressure,pressure on the tyre, trainer road wheel circumference, correct trainer selected, etc etc

I've recently started & had very similar results to jsync but am not really sure how to get the initial set up correct.

Is there an idiot proof guide anywhere?

Pump the tyre to your preferred pressure. Tighten it onto the surface of the tyre, then wind it until it indents the tyre about 3mm approx. if the tyre slips when you start to apply pressure beyond warm up, tight little tiny bit at a time. Once it stops slipping, make a mark / record where it is.

Redo the process if you change tyres including a new ftp test not worrying about any change in power at this time because you are merely seting a base. Ensure your pressure is the same each time. If you can, take the bike on and off he turbo without changing the tension.

Or buy a powermeter, mine arrives later in the week.

Cheers Kryton - sounds much like what I've done.

It is intriguing seeing other peoples numbers from the same workout - there's a wild variation in FTP but quite a high proportion see to be down at my pathetic level 🙂

Seen a couple uploaded to strava too which but you can even see almost identical figures but much higher speed/distance for the same power output - I guess that's down to resistance on the TT or something.

Cheers Kryton, will give that a go as it looks like the tyre is clamped pretty tight.

Never fear Nobby, it can only get better (that's what I'm telling myself)

Maybe jsync, but if I change set up it means doing the 8 Minute #*+$€#%$¥ test again. 😉

Me too, booked in tomorrow for the 3rd effort.......funtastic

OK, it looks like it might be me. I had a fiddle with tyre pressure and tension and the 3rd attempt is 161, so just up a bit from 156. At least it is consistent so it will be a good base whatever the figure. On the plus side my cock wasn't numb this time like it was for the others 🙂

I did Mills for the first time tonight. I now feel ill!

double post tastic!!!

Been off the bike a year:

20min test and got 100ftp
Baxter
8min test
Baxter
Slide
8min test
8min test and got 180ftp

Think you become "accustomed/conditioned" to the test after a few goes. Just started week 3 of sweet spot base mid vol, really enjoying it. Less the 2.5hr Koip mind****. Entered a few Peak District sportives in April for a bit of focus.

Some of the power that folk push out is mind blowing! TBH I think I personally worked harder during the Sufferfest vids perceived exertion than to a power output, but it's predominantly form training on this plan and I like the high cadence stuff. Got a feeling when the plan switches to turning big gears I might suffer!

Nice custom session I tried for the first time the other night, I call it the Ant White having stolen it from his blog:

5 min Z5
5 min Z5
20 min Z4
5 min Z5
5 min Z5
(I did 5 min Z2 rest in between each)

According to Ant "They kind of mimic the longer climbs that occur in my more important races and try to drive lactic acid tolerance up a bit." I would describe it as getting some pain in the legs nice and early with the first two intervals and then adding stupid amounts of pain from then on. Some decent TSS in that hour! Enjoyed it 😀

Boom. 205 > 250FTP.

Two months of sporadic time crunched sessions.

There's an athlete hiding in here somewhere.

On the final week of SP LV1, did Brasstown tonight. Jeez! Talk about old school turbo, by far the least interesting session I've done so far. Just got the 8min test to look forward to on Monday 😯

Worst bit about the 8 min test?

Getting to the end of the first one and knowing you've got to do it all over again.

I think some of the increase was being better at the test. I finished both about 10s from puking.

Nice work Jam bo!

Well that was interesting. I recieved a Powertap G3 today, so set her all up and off I went...

I did Hitchcock - Sweetspot @85%/189w. 5 mins in and I notice my HR was 10bpm lower and my legs were spinning much easier. 15 mins in and there wasn't a bead of sweat, so I decided to have a play. Cue, 6 x 330w intervals, a 270 2min interval, 4 x 420w intervals. So probably my prior illness had ground me to pieces and TR was quite inaccurate for me/mysetup certainly at the higher end of the range - as I wasn't even achieving a TR 223w 2 minute interval 4 weeks ago.

I'm quite looking forward to next weeks FTP test now as I imagine my numbers will be significantly up.

My g3 gives readings miles out, are you using the garmin speed/cadence still?

Man I really want a power meter...

My g3 gives readings miles out, are you using the garmin speed/cadence still?

Oh god.... Yes? How do you know it's miles out?

You need another PM to compare it to 😉

Heeeellllp!

will have been something not setup right, but this was the last workout i did

420W for 6 minutes are nowhere near my max HR

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/1403630-Carson-TC

I ought they were accurate to 1%?

they are, however my issue was with integrating it with trainer road,

Surely if calibrated correctly it can't be hugely out, maybe 1% is pushing it though, when I was looking into power meters they all reviewed well (dc rainmaker) and not that different results.
To be fair as long as it is a figure that is a constant it doesn't matter other than comparing with others...
Raymond today for me after pushing it a little bit too hard in the wind on the commute, if I didn't have a kickr I would have backed off but it doesn't let me. Learning to embrace the pain 🙂
Friend thought he was doing 700 watts for an hour until I calibrated his kickr properly for him, he's gutted that he is using a lower figure now but has no idea what any of it means...
Edit- re tr integration is it possible to do a standalone run without it running to check figures ?

they are, however my issue was with integrating it with trainer road,

Ok, I have mine connected to my Garmin, and TR as a device. I hit the set 0 button first. The only problem I had was the smoothing - it's match harder to be accurate with the Powertap ive had to set TR to 3 second smoothing to avoid my workout looking like a drawing by a kid with a crayon whose just been stung by a wasp.

My garmin shows an NP of 191w, TR 197w although I did do an extra 2 mins of cool down after the TR workout finished.

I have powertap G3. Had it over 1 year. Been v. Good so far. Works great on road and in TR. Just remember to calibrate on garmin and in TR. Sometimes get slightly different calibration numbers but results are almost identical.
I hope it isn't out I got no way of telling!! Just come to end of SSpot low vol 2. Current FTP is 260. Gonna have a break from turbo as getting a little bored. May try 8 min test in week or 2 see if there's any improvement.

Under the "Devices" tab of the app, make sure Virtual Power is not enabled. A lot of times this will be turned on and TR will try to take your speed, run it against an incorrect power curve, and give you power data from that rather than from your power meter.

-Trevor from TrainerRoad

test today 6% increase in FTP since jan (alright would have liked a bit more)

into a plan of lots of high end stuff for march....

I've been doing some sweet spot base stuff but chucked in 'old rag' today.....ooooofffff. My eyeballs needed exploded on the last effort 😀

Just done my second 8 minute FTP test. Jeez! that was hard!! Went from 218 to 226 Watts which is just under 4% improvement. The two intervals averaged 254 & 250 Watts so pretty even, the effort across the intervals was even as well so pleased with that.

2nd FTP test completed today. Just Finished Sweet spot Base 1, started with an ftp of 206 finished with 219.

Nice to see an improvement.
Now on to start the mountain bike based stuff!

I raced MTB yesterday - FTP test tomorrow (Tuesday) night or Wednesday?

I have just finished my base segment and gone from 207 to 230 (using a trainer not proper power)
So I was going to start the build segment. But I want to do the 3 turbo sessions in the week and then do real rides at the weekend. Would this still work or would I be missing essential elements?

But I want to do the 3 turbo sessions in the week

Some "what plan?" advice if I may:

Been off the bike for a year due to injury, but now on the mend following surgery. I've been on the turbo "causally playing" with TR for a few weeks and have now done the first 3 weeks of sweet spot base mid vol part one. I'm doing an 80 mile sportive with 7000ft of climbing in 8 weeks time.

So do I: Plod on with sweet spot or switch to the 8 week Sustained Power Build....

Any thoughts welcome.

Think there's something to be said for plodding on if you're getting back into it. I'm finishing sweetspot I just now and the level feels right for adapting to the whole thing. I think with a FTP-test that's bob-on it should be a good compromise of intensity and frequency.
My FTP was a bit under-cooked so the sessions felt a little on the easy-side. I've put that right now so expecting a bit more intensity with sweetspot II.
I'm new to it, though, so don't really know what I'm talking about 🙂

That's exactly how I feel about my FTP boredom kicks in before pain. I'll look at the numbers tomorrow then decide.... Not that I know what the numbers mean! I feel that my form is pretty good when the narrative says things like "soon you'll be able to sustain a cadence of 90-95" and I'm fine at 105 with pretty good form and control. Equally I feel OK on the slower cadence "grinds". But my legs and lungs have never felt taxed really. I know that's not the aim of this phase, I just want to get the most out of the time I've got without being counter productive....

I just want to get the most out of the time I've got without being counter productive....

Nothing you seem to be doing will be counter productive, however the question is, is it the most effective? After all why spend longer on the turbo/rollers than really needed.

It sounds like your FTP should be increased if you're not being taxed too hard by the sessions. Sweet spot training should be hard on the both the legs and the lungs.

@climbingkev - that sounds like your FTP is too low, maybe time to do a retest. It doesn't really matter what the actual figures are, just that they relate to your current fitness level so that when you are asked to put some effort in it really is an effort and you are just about able to hang on to complete it and get to the rest interval.

I've just finished Sweet Spot low volume 1, not sure if I should do volume 2 or move on to one of the more specific plans. I should really have started last September or October but now that the days are getting longer I'm less inclined to spend long periods on the turbo. I might do my own "plan" of a couple of high intensity sessions per week combined with a regular FTP test.

Cheers guys!

So, another test today or just up the FTP and continue with the plan...... Decisions, decisions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not cruising, but I'm always "out of the blue"* on the graphs and an yet to need to use any of the "chicken-runs".

*Single leg work needs some concentration, but it's a million times better in just a few weeks. This is the only place where I fail to keep the power.

I find the single leg stuff hard - it's not something you'd do normally so you haven't got the muscle memory for it.

I've found that there'll be some sessions that you find easy and some will be hard (assuming your FTP is about right) no matter what: I'm relatively fine on efforts so long as I have a decent rest between them for example.

Going to crack on with the Sweet Spot Base and knock it up a few%. Will complete the base then move onto Sustained Power Build for 3 weeks prior to the event then a rest week. Your dead right whitestone, intervals are fine, but Sundays 2h45 Conness was the most demanding yet. Also, quite irritatingly, I can never find the ideal gear to match my cadence and power quite right, so concentrate on the cadence and go a tad over on the power.

Sustained Power looks like hard work - I might like it 😆

I'm looking at training for long off-road climbs, say 15 - 30 minutes, that have short technical sections that I need to apply a lot of power to. In TR terms it's something like 5mins at or just below FTP with a 30sec burst at 150% (or higher) FTP.

I've found (when road biking) that there's always a gradient that is just "wrong" for me: one gear is too low and the next gear is too high so I'm always swapping between them. It's nothing to do with steepness or length of climb, it's the gradient.

Sundays 2h45 Conness was the most demanding yet

😯 2:45 on the turbo 😯 Others may disagree but this session seems like a total waste of time. It isn't going to do anything for your legs that a shorter, slightly more intense session of the same overall work wouldn't do. No wonder the slow slog was demanding!

I'm looking at training for long off-road climbs, say 15 - 30 minutes, that have short technical sections that I need to apply a lot of power to. In TR terms it's something like 5mins at or just below FTP with a 30sec burst at 150% (or higher) FTP.

You can't exclusively target power at certain durations. You have to work across the board and riding at various intensities all help each other out. Working below FTP is needed to "fill the right" of the critical power curve but you will also need some decent Threshold and Z5/Z6 sessions in the week IMO to "raise the left". So long as you mix up the sessions that fall in these zones and keep testing and challenging the legs then you should see improvements across the board.

One thing I've really found to help real world climbing is to work at a range of cadences across all of these sessions too. It will feel tough out on the hill when you are forced to ride at 70 or 80 rpm up some steep, technical terrain if you've only ridden at your comfortable cadence all winter

Basically, cover all bases and give the legs some variety and you can't go far wrong 😀

Whitestone. Hopefully, increasing FTP will mean you'll find a cadence and gear you can turn happily. Also, I think the MTB specific workouts should really help with explosive power, helping you get over short steep inclines without reaching for the shifter. I'm a nightmare for shifting under load like this and want to do a plan to help me reduce it. Current half way through sweetspot Low VII.

If it's on the road, I would always go for a higher cadence than lower one with a taller gear. The baseload work has helped my form and getting the cadence up as a result.

@DanW I think what I wrote didn't come across the way I intended! I was meaning that the power output needed on one of the climbs would look like those TR levels, not use those TR levels to train for the climbs.

My preferred cadence has increased by about 10rpm over the course of SP1 and I'm reasonably happy at 15rpm higher still for moderate timespans. I haven't been on the particular climbs since starting the turbo work so don't know what effect it's had.

No worries, sorry for the misunderstanding!

One of the joys of a real powermeter is seeing how real climbs compare to the sessions on a turbo. I've found most longer climbs I've done are actually repeated efforts above threshold with surprising amounts of rest in between along the way, even when you feel you are still blowing. To climb at or just below Threshold you either need a fairly moderate rather than steep gradient and smooth surface or high W/kg. Neither has been true for the typical Welsh climbs I've done, especially the high enough W/kg to stay under Threshold as the gradient and roughness of the trail go up 😆

@DanW, am I right in thinking that a shorter workout with same TSS would achieve the same then? And presumably pick a workout that will address my weaknesses.

You need a balance of intensities across the week and there is definitely a place for mid to long rides (outdoors IMO) but it is not a great use of time on the turbo, not to mention being unsustainably dull. There are few variations of the table below but essentially almost all of the same adaptations as Z2 rides can be found at Z3 and Z4, albeit with more recovery required as the intensity goes up. This is why Sweetspot Training has become popular (of course supplemented with other sessions) for the time crunched- time efficient adaptations while still being able to recover quite quickly afterwards. I'd personally not bother with anything under sweetspot on the turbo unless you just want an easy 30-60 minute spin to get the legs going again after some heavy days. I'm sure others have different opinions but that would be my thoughts for the average person that doesn't do 20+ hour cycling weeks

[img] [/img]

I did Brasstown last week (it was the last workout in Sweetspot LV1), it was like old school turbo training, terminally boring. For me I think turbo training is best suited to short(ish) well defined intervals that you can go at 100% without having to worry about traffic or junctions or whatever. Mixing it up with long steady rides out on the bike keeps your bike handling skills going as well.

All good stuff! Cheers guys.

8 minute for me tonight, 7 point increase which I'd guess is about right going off recent workouts.

Could probably have squeezed out a bit more on a better day but I'm feeling much stronger out on the road so improvements all round.

Only been using TR for a couple of months but really enjoying it. Using in combination with a Kickr so the 'Erg' workouts are really effective (and sometimes brutal).

Need to re-test for 20 minutes. FTP had hit a ceiling around 270W but think it might have notched up another 10W or so following some recent VO2 max and Anaerobic stuff.

First race (4th Cat crit) this weekend, which should be fun if I can avoid all the whoppers! Think I'm more suited to hillier terrain, so will be looking to enter some road races too (4.3 W/kg).

You need a balance of intensities across the week and there is definitely a place for mid to long rides (outdoors IMO) but it is not a great use of time on the turbo, not to mention being unsustainably dull.

Interesting point that, that somehow riding on the turbo is different to riding on the roads... it is, but it all just boils down to pedalling through varying intensities for a duration of time. You can build effective longer workouts that go some way towards simulating riding on the roads if turbo is your only option. You do need to build up to two or three hours on the turbo but it's not that bad once you get your head around it.

Sundays 2h45 Conness was the most demanding yet

I'm a bit sceptical these days of the long intervals at a constant power. They just make you good at riding at a constant power, which isn't at all like riding on the roads where you have loads of little accelerations and decelerations.

nammynake

First race (4th Cat crit)......(4.3 W/kg).

Think you'll be accused of sandbagging, unless you've dreadful racecraft.

Best of luck with it and report back.

I'm finishing the sweet spot low vol 2 this week and wondering what to do next...I'm happy with my progress and for the last couple of weeks I have been upping the intenisty 5 or 10% later into some of the workouts. Gonna do another 8min test and then thinking of doing one of the MTB programmes..anybody doing one now and how are you finding it. I'm not racing but got a few off road challenges including dfyi enduro and kielder101. Thanks

Definitely re-take the FTP test and take a dip into one of the MTB plans.

The MTB ones are quite good, lots of 4 minute intervals at slightly less than FTP with various 10 to 30 second sprints thrown in.

Excellent for replicating climbing with technical sections, or simulating pulling turns for road riding.

With the better weather kicking in now I'll start to recreate the weekend sessions outside and maintain two or three sessions a week on the rollers.

Having done the FTP test on Monday (from the start of Sweetspot level 2), I'm going to finish that week's workouts, Ebbetts and Kaweah, then move on to the MTB plan. My general idea is to do a couple of workouts during the week then aim to be out on the trails/roads at the weekend unless the weather is really foul.

I'll do the FTP test at regular intervals (yeah, right!) and start up the full sessions in time to run through a full set of plans for this time next year.

Thanks for that. And for anyone thinking of having a go, just do it. I've done 5 weeks now and not been bored or not wanted to go into my freezing garage once. The recovery rides are not that interesting but put some cycling on youtube and spin away. I lapsed over the autumn from a point where I was probably fitter than I have been for thirty years but doing the Sweet Spot programme has really fetched my level up. I dont really race but just the thought of leaving my mates miles behind is good enough for me.

TR now available properly on the iPad too. Nice option for a portable turbo session.

Just updated the iPad version looks good but not used it in [s]anger[/s] agony yet 😳

Lafaytte tonight, longer than the normal mid week session at 1:17.

Recommended.

Ebbetts for me. First session at new FTP level and it felt surprisingly OK. Judging the timing for the effort for the sprints was the hardest part, hit it right about 50% of the time.

[b]The Swedish Chef[/b]
Think you'll be accused of sandbagging, unless you've dreadful racecraft.

Best of luck with it and report back.

No idea what "sandbagging" means. If you mean my W/kg is decent (for 4th Cat level), the race is pan flat, so my 270 W doesn't sound quite so useful! Quite a few guys from our club racing though, so will try to hide in the pack and go for the sprint (which again isn't my strong point).

Yup 4.3 w/kg is first Cat level. See:

[url= http://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/six-things-need-know-power-weight-ratio.html/2 ]PWR blurb from RCUK[/url]

If it's that high you might be better off avoiding Crits and doing lumpy races.
Sandbagging is faking it. i.e. riding at a lower ability that you are capable of and normally refers to a rider in a break avoiding his turn by claiming he's cooked - then miraculously recover for the final.

Will see how I get on. Staying near the front seems to be the main tip I've heard. There are 43 riders taking part so wouldn't want to be stuck near the back approaching the finish.

@ 4.3W/kg first Cat is stretching it a bit IMO, but certainly that level should be competitive in 3rd, and not disgraced in 2nd.

But racecraft plays a massive part, knowing when to dig in and for how long and when to sit in and follow wheels will really increase your potential to place well.

@ 4.3W/kg first Cat is stretching it a bit IMO

Don't say that. It's only depressing me 😉 Anything that starts with a 3 would be good for me.

Darwin tonight. Which appears to have its fans...

[url= http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/30040-carpathian-peak ]Carpathian Peak[/url] for me tonight.

Viewing recommendation Swedish Chef? I've enjoyed a lot of your previous cyclocross vids. (Shamefully, I prefer watching the women). A good road race scrap would be good.

Last round of the Super Prestige at Middelkerke, if only for the drainage ditch drop off/jump in the middle of course! Only in Belgium would that be seen as OK

Or to get you in the mood for this Saturday, 2014's Strade Bianche was an excellent edition

I'm pleased. Despite limited miles and training since November becuase of dual chest infections I've recorded a +9% FTP gain since September.

That puts me firmly around the 3.5w/kg mark, I'm happy with that, and will be hoping it creeps to 3.75w/kg by August.

Goddam those tests though, I very nearly lost my morning calorie input after changing UP a gear and burying myself for the final minute of the second interval

Good work there Kryton. Is that now with the PowerTap? How does that power compare to TR virtual power?

Been doing a lot of base and tempo work here so staying away from any sort of testing until I've done some sustained intensity. Another month to go before any racing here. First ride of the year on the TT bike at lunch today, most enjoyable, 22 mph avg over 90 mins off an easy spinning 210NP, and that's without the fast wheels, pointy helmet or skinsuit 😀

It is with the powertap and the 9% is factored based on some of my basic maths skills with the TR / Powertap differential.

FWIW, each 8 min interval was average (powertap) 280-290w with a 330w 1 minute peak at the end, speed average 32.9 KMPH, and 202 np from Garmin/Strava. I actually completed the first interval a bit too comfortabley, hence the 1 min >300w burst at the end of the second - I just emptied the tank as I saw the finish line so to speak.

FWIW the powertap measures about +25w over Virtual power for me at this level, but it changes as it goes up - I'd say there's a greater differential the higher the power is vis a vis I did a 450w 30 second seated interval with powertap last week, and I've never measured over 360w with virtual power.

FWIW the powertap measures about +25w over Virtual power for me at this level, but it changes as it goes up - I'd say there's a greater differential the higher the power is vis a vis I did a 450w 30 second seated interval with powertap last week, and I've never measured over 360w with virtual power.

I think a lot of that is Virtual Power not measuring the power you put into actually accelerating the pedals as it's only going by wheel speed. So a big heave on the pedals that would give a big spike on a PM would look like a gradual increase on VP. Same if you stop pedalling, a PM will drop off a cliff, but VP just gradually ramps down to zero.

Tip with the PowerTap, well worth pausing after, say, 10 mins and 20 mins to let it re-calibrate.

ok thanks - you means pause to a stop or will the low endurance watts/rest periods do?

I stop. Unclip. Wait a few seconds (usually fannying about with iplayer.) Then start up again.

Impromptu test coming home from work, 380 for 20 mins, annoyingly don't normally bother with HR strap for commute but was a decent headwind to push against. This is normally my summer figure on fairly fresh legs so trainerroad has helped massively over winter. Nearly at the 4.5 pwr that I wanted for this season.
All down to using the mtb plan.