[Closed] TrainerRoad: Do you follow the profile?

Are you sure your ftp is right? I normally stick to the profile. If i'm doing a sufferfest or threshold plan i'm normally looking forward to the rest.

If it's an easier workout then maybe but that's probably missing the point.

My FTP hasn't changed since the Spring, and I'd guess that I've made some gains since I last did one of the tests so maybe I should redo it and see.

Does everyone else do the FTP tests every few months?

Follow, although I tend to be mostly above the target so probably need to update FTP, not something I'm particularly looking forward to. Pretty much always go all out on the last effort!

Assuming you're bridging between intervals sounds as though you could do I with updating.

Think I read it was recommended every 8 weeks...

... so probably need to update FTP, not something I'm particularly looking forward to.

That's the thing the tests aren't really something that you want to go back to to over and over. I mean all the sessions are hard but the tests are hard and dull combined.

[edit]

Every 8 weeks!!! If that's right then I'm massively overdue.

Me too, last one was before summer!

I don't find it dull, just very hard going...needs some good tunes for motivation, may give it another shot this week and see how I've come along...

Generally I use it mostly with the Sufferfest vids.

Generally I use it mostly with the Sufferfest vids.

I've kind of got stuck in a rut (in a good way) by doing the same programmes over and over, trying to improve on them each time by bumping up the percentage. Favourite at the moment is colosseum and some of the ftp interval sessions.

If you want to train properly then I'd say 8 weeks is pushing it. Once a month is a better bet.

I don't do the tests for my FTP, I just bump it up a couple of points if I exceed the expected readings for a couple of sessions. It should always be difficult to fallow the recommended profile, but not impossible.

Yup, basically what's been said. Many of the interval sessions you should be able to only just complete if your FTP is set correctly. If you're finding them too easy then you need to tweak your FTP upwards or re-test. Depending on what I'm doing I'll re-test somewhere between 4 and 8 weeks (e.g. winter time with a lot of turbo work i'll test more often) It is worth doing as a change of a few watts can make quite a difference.

Also it's worth sticking to the power level suggested, otherwise you're not really doing the workout described. For example, if it's a sweet spot effort and you're going much over then it'll become a threshold effort instead. Which might be fine if that's what you want, but if so then just pick a threshold session.

That's the thing the tests aren't really something that you want to go back to to over and over. I mean all the sessions are hard but the tests are hard and dull combined.

The tests are just bloody hard and I have to be in the right frame of mind to do one. Did one a couple of days ago and came very close to vomiting just after I'd finished. Fun times!

Doh bit late to edit the previous post. Wanted to add something about the IF and TSS values of workouts. Do you pay much attention to this? It will give you an indication of how hard the workout should be. If you do one with a high IF and you are easily completing it then you definitely have your FTP too low.

I havn't paid a great deal of notice to the IF and TSS numbers other than thinking bigger = better which I know is a bit of a caveman approach but then I'm not sure I'm really at the marginal gains end of spectrum as far as training and fitness goes.

The last 6 sessions have had the following numbers:
TSS 139 - IF 0.96
TSS 78 - IF 0.72
TSS 128 - IF 0.92
TSS 122 - IF 0.87
TSS 83 - IF 0.74
TSS 104 - IF 0.83

So what does all that mean then?

Think I have a date with my turbo and the 20 minute test tonight, depending how I'm feeling after work.

I definitely benefited from using it this year and it's probably a good time to retest and adjust for next year.

I know everyone's different, but any recommendations for one of the training plans going into winter?

The IF is a measure of how intense the workout is. An IF of 1.0 equates to an hour at FTP I think. So a very intense workout may be more, a less intense workout would be less. So for example, a hard 60 mins doing a 2x20 at FTP like Gray would have an IF of 0.92. I reckon for an hours workout anything over .9 is getting hard, 0.8 not so hard, and around 0.7 (like Black for example) is close to being a recovery ride.

TSS is meant to be a measure of how much stress the workout puts on the body. So a short intense workout may have a similar TSS to a long low intensity workout. It's good to keep track of the TSS you build up each week (helps with planning easy and hard weeks for example). So you may have blocks of training when you do lots of low intensity and high volume, and then other weeks when you do high intensity low volume, but you'd have a similar amount of TSS in the week. After a while you'll know how much TSS is a hard week and how much is an easy week, then you can plan workouts around that to make sure you don't overdo it.

If you are interested in all this then grab a copy of Training and Racing with a Power Meter by Allen and Coggan. Loads of stuff in there about TSS/IF/NP etc. and how to make sense of all the data.

Cheers MrBlobby for the detailed explanation. Those 6 sessions I posted were all 90 minutes and even on the 0.96 IF one I felt like I could have given it a bit more so I think that points to my FTP being set too low.

Looks like Haze isn't going to be the only one doing the 20 minute test this evening 🙁

Make sure you have the sick bucket handy 😉

Edit: oh and if you find it tricky to judge effort over one 20 min interval (can be tricky if you don't have a pretty good idea of where your FTP is at) it may be worth checking out the 8 minute test instead.

It was a long time ago but I think it was the 8 minute test that I did originally so I think I'll go for that one again and then maybe schedule in a twenty minute version in 4-6 weeks time.

How did you get on?

I'm saving it for tomorrow, was going to do it late afternoon, but work got in the way. I'll update here, gonna be embarrassing if it's actually worse though!

Left work at 7 and straight home for a bowl of chili and glass of red.

Needless to say I postponed until tomorrow too!

Shame on you both 🙂

I'll be better rested tomorrow 😉

This is how it felt when i forgot my PE kit.

Right, done it.

8 minute test.
Old settings: LTHR = 171, FTP = 260
New settings: LTHR = 152, FTP = 283

Seems I was around 10% out for the both settings, although I don't get how the LTHR measurement can go so far in the opposite direction compared to the FTP. If I'm understanding these figures, the LTHR is a measurement of what heart rate i can hold for an hour which has gone down dramatically whereas the power I can maintain for an hour has gone up. Seems contradictory to me.

Be interesting to see how i get on with the normal sessions now.

Probably worth doing the 20 min test as well to see how they compare. Give yourself a couple of minutes to recover first though.

Probably worth doing the 20 min test as well to see how they compare. Give yourself a couple of minutes to recover first though.

I'm still steaming like a bloody racehorse here, gonna need more than a couple of minutes.

[edit] on reflection a carthorse seems a better comparison

🙂

Good work there 🙂

TBH I tend to ignore the LTHR, I don't think it uses it for anything if you are using power. You can always reset it to something sensible. If you do a long threshold interval then your HR when it levels off will be roughly your LTHR.

Oh and the first few hard sessions you do after you increase your FTP setting are always entertaining 🙂

10% increase on my FTP since Feb, happy with that...not looking forward to my next Sufferfest vid...

Cool. Yup, everything will now be 10% harder 🙂 Though did Gray the other night after upping my FTP setting a little earlier in the week and it wasn't as bad as I expected.

Seems I was around 10% out for the both settings, although I don't get how the LTHR measurement can go so far in the opposite direction compared to the FTP. If I'm understanding these figures, the LTHR is a measurement of what heart rate i can hold for an hour which has gone down dramatically whereas the power I can maintain for an hour has gone up. Seems contradictory to me.

As Mr Blobby said LTHR is fairly pointless if you have access to power readings. Mine takes 10 minutes at least at FTP to reach LTHR. Going off HR I'd be massively over exerting myself for that time then probably spend the last 10 minutes of the interval recovering.

HR's affected by everything from sleep (or lack of) to hydration (or lack of). But a lower LTHR probably means your fitter than you were at the last test as you heart is now bigger (compared to your legs) so it doing less bmp to pump sufficient blood.

I took a proper look at the chart for the ride and there is quite a big flat bottomed dip in the heart rate readout about 2 minutes in to one of the efforts where it looks like the unit stops registering or registers intermittently. That combined with the a lag between starting that sort of measured effort and the heart rate catching up seems to account for the oddness.

I think the original figure (171) for heart rate is actually pretty close to being right. When I looked back over sessions that have a sustained effort it seems that my heart rate levels out at around the low 170's. Much more than that and it becomes unsustainable.

There is definitely a difference in how the effort felt as well. On the initial fitness test I remember being short of breath, struggling to get enough air in to my lungs, this time around my breathing although very hard and heavy felt reasonably controlled and it was my leg muscles that felt like the weak link.

Took a "real" fitness test yesterday with lactate reading, VO2Mx readings, Wingate test, the whole works.

Utterly spent for the rest of the day.

Now need to increase the FTP setting by 15 watts in TrainerRoad, not pretty.

Interestingly my LTHR hadn't changed, not sure what to read into this.

I certainly feel stronger/fitter than back in Feb and the FTP reflects this, putting out more watts for the same effort.

Honestly expected an increase in LTHR too, or at least the same FTP for for less effort.

I'll redo it in a few weeks ,maybe I'll see a little more correlation if the tests are more frequent?

Now need to increase the FTP setting by 15 watts in TrainerRoad, not pretty.

Ouch!

How did you get your previous baseline? Was that from one of the trainerroad tests, or just tweaking? I guess the tests are dependant on you being able to judge your efforts perfectly in order to be completely spent at the end, and even then it's only meant to be a guide, so quite interested in what the typical discrepancy is between field test results and a "real" test. May have to get tested 🙂

Edit: I'd assume that the lab test used more accurate power measurement than i do at home using the powertap. Just wondering about using a set of values based on one bit of equipment then applying it to another that may not be as accurate. Do you do anything to calibrate your home kit?

Interestingly my LTHR hadn't changed, not sure what to read into this.

Increased power at same LTHR is pretty much what to expect if you are getting stronger/fitter.

I thought LTHR could be trained/improved, just a little surprised to see it hadn't changed after some good improvements this year...

I use a 2 baseline sessions throughout the year, done on rollers with a PowerTap.

2 * 20 minutes with 5 minutes rolling recovery
4 * 4 minutes off 2 minutes rolling recovery.

I know that my FTP is roughly 300 if I can hold 280 watts per interval in session 1 and average 350 watts in session 2, (during a normal weeks worth of training workload).

I had my FTP at 300 in TrainerRoad and the efforts in Sufferfest sessions were hard but not killing me, but that's OK in the middle of the cross season when you're racing twice over a weekend, it’s from Dec onwards where I need the assistance.

I need to sit down with the guy who did the test and together we'll create a 14 week plan, (part of the package I got), which will act as my guide during winter.

2014 is going to be serious cycling, no playing around with training 😀

Sweden has just got its first UCI registered MTB event as well, just up the road from me

EDIT: Its the third test I've done with them so they have some background on me

I thought LTHR could be trained/improved, just a little surprised to see it hadn't changed after some good improvements this year...

I think it can but you'd see much smaller changes over a much longer period.

I need to sit down with the guy who did the test and together we'll create a 14 week plan, (part of the package I got), which will act as my guide during winter.

Sounds good. Was going to dig out Friel's book and put something together for the winter but I'm thinking I'd rather just pay someone to do it for me (expensive?) Though early 2014 will see the arrival of blobby jr mk2 so will more likely be a season of trying to keep things ticking over with some local races.

I think it can but you'd see much smaller changes over a much longer period.

It actually increased by 1, so yeah I'd class that as much smaller!

I've gone from very fit to rather unfit back to fit and mine didn't really change. You may notice that it takes longer to get there though the fitter you get.

I thought LTHR could be trained/improved, just a little surprised to see it hadn't changed after some good improvements this year...

I'm surprised that it changes much at all. My expectation was that the LTHR would stay the same but that I'd be a little quicker/stronger for the the same heart rate. Effectively getting more efficient.

 

I'm surprised that it changes much at all. My expectation was that the LTHR would stay the same but that I'd be a little quicker/stronger for the the same heart rate. Effectively getting more efficient.

I guess I was expecting I could hold a higher effort over the 20 minutes than when I first tested earlier in the year, therefore ending up with a higher average.

But certainly not as much as FTP increase.

If anything it says I can put more out now for same effort, or as you say I should be more efficient.

I feel a graph coming on...

There use to be nice graphs of your peak powers for various intervals charted over time on TrainerRoad but they seem to have replaced that with a different "Personal Records" one that doesn't show the progression. Shame.

There use to be nice graphs of your peak powers for various intervals charted over time on TrainerRoad but they seem to have replaced that with a different "Personal Records" one that doesn't show the progression. Shame.

Glad I'm not the only person that thought the old way was better.

The only thing I can see that's good about the new chart is it's easy to see the intervals that you've been neglecting as they deviate from the smoothness of the curve. It's a better picture of the here and now but tells you nothing about progress which is a shame as it's the progress that fuels the motivation.