 You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Question for those that build jumps on trails. Why do you build doubles? Is it just the case of the middle of the jump being the easiest place to get the soil for the take off and landing or is it for the added thrill? Asking as a lot of the jumps that are appearing round me are doubles with a 5 foot plus gap in the middle with a great big hole where the soil has been taken from which, as i'm a fan of the case, give me the heebiejeebies. Why not just get the soil from areas close by and possibly fill in the centre section while you're at it so they can be ridden by everyone, including those that want to roll the whole thing? Just wondering if a double adds excitement or is just a case of cba to move more soil which is fair enough since you're building them. Always wondered if i would piss a jump builder off by filling in the middle 😀
too much effort to build a table without a digger.
Why do you build doubles?
Finding enough soil to make a double into a table is quite a lot more difficult.
And that presumably also ties in with why the soil is taken from the middle. Fair enough, just think there's more chance of someone clattering themselves on a double where its out of their comfort zone but for whatever reason are giving it a go and then the whole trail gets wrecked.
also those building big doubles know they can make it, and thats all that matters -innit like
In my experience it is mainly for 2 reasons:
1) It requires an awful lot more time and effort to build a table.
2) To stop everyone riding them. There are always loads of kids that hang around jump spots. They don't contribute in any way towards building or maintenance and if the jumps were all tables there would be a constant flow of kids riding over them and skidding all over the place.
And possibly 3) because it is more extreme and dangerous.
if you can make a 5 foot gap on a table you can do the same on a 5 foot table thats been turned into a double. its just mind tricks.
Why are you aiming to land in the middle?
Always wondered if i would piss a jump builder off by filling in the middle
I doubt it would piss them off. They'd probably laugh at you for moving several 100kgs of earth for absolutely no purpose, mind...
Doubles look dangerous, but they tend to deter people who aren't sure about their ability from giving it a try. You can also clatter yourself on a table quite easily, for example if you overshoot. The reason doubles tend to get trails demolished is more down to the way they look, and the possibility that someone will be rolling down the trail without realising what's coming up.
At my (now gone) local jump spot sometimes people would pile up pallets between the doubles, presumably so you could land on them if you came up short.
presumably so you could [s]land on them[/s] impale yourself on rotting timber and rusty nails if you came up short
FIFY
(it was old doors round me)
Yeah it didn't seem like the greatest plan to me.
Greeble - yep, appreciate its mind tricks but there is no out for coming up short and i'm not the most confident jumping. Plus there are some trails where the jump is quite big (in my terms) and i've no real interest in pushing myself that far but love the rest of the trail. A table would make it more fun. Obviously all entirely selfish based on my ability and i guess the difference between a funded trail centre and someone's hard graft in their own spare time which i do appreciate. Bizarrely according to a relatively recent interview i'm one of the few to actually give the guy a token of appreciation which i think is out of order but that is a different story.
grum - Member
At my (now gone) local jump spot sometimes people would pile up pallets between the doubles, presumably so you could land on them if you came up short.
POSTED 12 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
Ime that's just done to make it look less daunting rather than use as a safety net. Tabletop > double with something in the gap > double
Also few builders would want to build anything that can be rolled as it leads to the lip being worn down a lot faster, meaning even more maintenance.
Never thought of the increased risk of a table - fair comment.
Plus there are some trails where the jump is quite big (in my terms) and i've no real interest in pushing myself that far but love the rest of the trail
ride round it?
duffmiver - yep but ruins the flow of an otherwise great trail.
If I am building wooden take off and landing ramps what are the best angles/profile to use? I built one before with a wooden table in the middle that you could take away that was pretty good but was not sure about the dimensions.
duffmiver - yep but ruins the flow of an otherwise great trail.
learn to jump.
start small and work up to it. you'd be suprised once you get a few jumps under you you'll be hitting that trail and wondering what the fuss was about.
Half term, innit.
Incidence of rubbish jumps being built on trails that don't really take to them goes through the roof during school holidays.
Learn to dig.Then build your own.
I don't really think 'oh I better make this suitable for other people' when I spend countless hours of hard graft digging in the winter to build trails tbh.
At my (now gone) local jump spot sometimes people would pile up pallets between the doubles, presumably so you could land on them if you came up short.
The technical term is a spaz board I do believe.
Learn to dig.Then build your own.
I don't really think 'oh I better make this suitable for other people' when I spend countless hours of hard graft digging in the winter to build trails tbh.
OP was perfectly gracious and appreciative of the builder's efforts, but you still manage to get some self-righteous trail builder arseyness in - bravo! 🙂
If its on legitimate sanctioned trail it would be so they're rollable and so accessible to all, but this doesn't sound the case from your OP.
If just built in the woods by yoofs then they build the bit they care about landing and take off. But you wouldn't get that at a trail centre. FE for example have a thing about In Line enforced air. Its a no go.
What pisses me off more than anything are the busy trails that loads of families use which get the gnar treatment. Why can't people dig an alternate line rather than ruin it for other trail users? Selfish little pricks.
And breathe out!
Why can't people dig an alternate line rather than ruin it for other trail users?
amen. safer, and more convenient for everybody.
And the easiest/safest way to learn to jump is... on a tabletop. Perfectly possible to overshoot a double BTW.
I'd only ever monkey with jumps that looked totally abandoned. If a set of trails looks like its been recently dug/ridden then find something else to ride...
Its all well and good sanitising a trail (that someone else more advanced with jumping was probably quite happy with), but if you've got the time to fill in a 5ft gap in a double you've got time to build a smaller line a few foot away with rollers, tables and smaller doubles to learn on and then build up to riding the big boys line...
Tabletops are pointless.
If you're clearing a gap, you're clearing a gap. If you don't have the skill, dont attempt it. The danger in jumping isn't coming short, it's simply being out of control in the air, a tabletop cant fix that.
As soon as you approach a jump with the intention of landing on the top, it becomes habit and you build up bigger, harder to break mental barriers.
Also as mentioned, too much extra unnecessary work.
You can still fall of the side of a tabletop.
As always, the safest thing is to operate within your own limits.
Its all well and good sanitising a trail (that someone else more advanced with jumping was probably quite happy with), but if you've got the time to fill in a 5ft gap in a double you've got time to build a smaller line a few foot away with rollers, tables and smaller doubles to learn on and then build up to riding the big boys line...
Excellent advice
Excellent advice
Unless the trail predates the digging, which is often the case.
Unless the trail predates the digging, which is often the case
I call that progression
deanfbm - Member
Tabletops are pointless.If you're clearing a gap, you're clearing a gap. If you don't have the skill, dont attempt it. The danger in jumping isn't coming short, it's simply being out of control in the air, a tabletop cant fix that.
As soon as you approach a jump with the intention of landing on the top, it becomes habit and you build up bigger, harder to break mental barriers.
Also as mentioned, too much extra unnecessary work.
You can still fall of the side of a tabletop.
As always, the safest thing is to operate within your own limits.
All that's well and good for experienced jumpers, but tabletops are useful for people learning to jump. You don't know what you can clear until you try. It's best not to figure that out by repeatedly landing in a hole.
The danger in jumping isn't coming short, it's simply being out of control in the air, a tabletop cant fix that.
Some of the danger is coming up short if there's no middle, and getting little bits of air is still fun even if you don't perfectly hit the down ramp, no need to deny that little bit of fun to everyone, and us ground dwellers don't always know if we're going to get all the way there.
Fair enough if you've got your own jump spot, but if you're building in the main line where others ride then there's a strong argument for building to all skill levels.
ridden by everyone, including those that want to roll the whole thing?
Because if you 'jump' you take off on/before and tangential to the lip, causing no wear. If you roll it you're pushing the bike perpendicular to the lip, wearing it away.
All that's well and good for experienced jumpers, but tabletops are useful for people learning to jump. You don't know what you can clear until you try. It's best not to figure that out by repeatedly landing in a hole.
Answer to that is to do what kids/teens have been doing forever, bits of wood on bricks (could be a mound of earth) and launching off of it over and over. It turns into a long jump competition with marks where everyone is landing. You then make a landing ramp, no gap, then slowly make it longer, not difficult, is it?
and getting little bits of air is still fun even if you don't perfectly hit the down ramp, no need to deny that little bit of fun to everyone, and us ground dwellers don't always know if we're going to get all the way there
Which slowly erodes away other peoples hard work.
Learning skills on bikes takes hard work (physically and mentally), lots of time and acceptance that how easy or hard something is, you will inevitably fall off and hurt yourself.
Seems to me, who is a BMXer who has built trails all their life, MTB is scared of hard work when it comes to building stuff appropriate for their skill level, putting the effort in to learn something or even picking their selves up after falling off and giving it another go. There's always an excuse, whether it be time/being scared/bike/no right to be building.
Deanofbm
I call that progression
But contrary to what you agreed with above as in this case if you have time to build a jump in the middle of an existing trail then you have time to create an alternate line with a jump on? Then everyone that enjoys the trail in its current state can continue to do so and you can go jumpy jumpy. If you built the original trail then its a different point entirely.
A Table top takes a LONG time to build by hand with no logs in it.
about 500 man hours: [url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8230/8486191346_8bab7caa9c.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/37582372@N07/8486191346/ ]Stoughton DH Table[/url] About 700 man hours so far (not finished):
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8229/8486191524_6981f15d12.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/37582372@N07/8486191524/ ]tt[/url]
Scott - innocent question...why don't you put logs in it?
if you can make a 5 foot gap on a table you can do the same on a 5 foot table that's been turned into a double
But there are no tables, so I can't learn
Logs rot, boulders (if available nearby) can be very handy though
deanfbm - MemberAnswer to that is to do what kids/teens have been doing forever, bits of wood on bricks (could be a mound of earth) and launching off of it over and over. It turns into a long jump competition with marks where everyone is landing. You then make a landing ramp, no gap, then slowly make it longer, not difficult, is it?
I'm 37 though. I look really daft doing that, and all the local kids point and laugh. 🙂
Before the site was offical all the jumps and berms had logs in them. Now its offical the FC does not let you use logs in jumps or to fill out berms but you can uses them to shore up the backs.
Like These:
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8525/8485149799_4d0cd0f557.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/37582372@N07/8485149799/ ]big berm[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/37582372@N07/ ]scottgolfgti[/url], on Flickr
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8368/8485149741_e314fd6eb1.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/37582372@N07/8485149741/ ]berm[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/37582372@N07/ ]scottgolfgti[/url], on Flickr
Gotama - the way i see it with the established trail malarky. Unless it's a footpath/bridleway/forestry commission run trail, no one has any rights when it comes to that trail other than the land owner.
Im saying all the users, whether it be the badgers that first eroded the path, or the walkers that widened it, or the MTBs that started using it or even the scoundrels who are now building jumps, they all have equal rights to the land, ie no rights.
Whoever got there first doesn't have dibs, it's the people who put in the work that get the say so in my eyes (as long as they're responsible, no littler/ankle breaking holes/disturbing badgers etc).
This is something myself and friends' have discussed and thought about heavily for years, hence feel passionate about it.
buzz-lightyear - Memberif you can make a 5 foot gap on a table you can do the same on a 5 foot table that's been turned into a double
But there are no tables, so I can't learn
Go some where that does have tables to learn?
Deanofbm - Reality is that I don't have the time, or put another way, i don't want to give up what little riding time i have to build so i do appreciate all the building that goes on round us. I guess where we'd differ in opinion is that i wouldn't say that putting an 8 foot double in the middle of a trail where you had nothing to do with original build and maintenance which flowed really well irrespective of the standard and pace at which you ride it.....is particularly thoughtful of 80% of the people riding it. Put a little flat side route round the jump then great, everyone can still enjoy the trail. Build the jump off to the side; same result. Make the jump do-able for all; again same result. If on the other hand its a trail that has been built by you then put all the jumps in you want, that's how the route was designed. I guess in my mind it boils down to consideration for others. If its your trail build it how you like, let others build ways round the jump. If it was a trail built by others and you add a jump, consideration says make a route round the jump as well so everyone can still enjoy it.
I guess where we'd differ in opinion is that i wouldn't say that putting an 8 foot double in the middle of a trail where you had nothing to do with original build and maintenance which flowed really well irrespective of the standard and pace at which you ride it
Work both ways we had a local trail that had a great double in it really added to the flow when you hit it just right. Then about 3 years ago in a summer hols some kids come in and used the soil for a table top which is Crap, Its off line and sends you up in the air. Flow has now gone.
Crap table:
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8469/8365164568_05a21b8901.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/37582372@N07/8365164568/ ]IMG_1781[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/37582372@N07/ ]scottgolfgti[/url], on Flickr
My point is A GOOD double and really add to the flow of a trail.
I learned to do doubles by filling the gap with any wood lying around and using the wood as a make-shift table until I got the approach speed correct.
Once I'd got is nailed I removed the wood.
I'd do the same or try to find a door / pallet to learn a new/longer double as I'm always scared of coming up short and doing a dead sailor.
It's all about fear / lack of confidence for me and I've never got over it.#
I envy riders who can do it 1st time perfectly.
jambon - Member
I learned to do doubles by filling the gap with any wood lying around and using the wood as a make-shift table until I got the approach speed correct.
Wrong way round. Just send it to flat then wind it in again 😉
Scottfitz - I don't have any disagreement with the fact that a double can enhance the flow of the trail...provided you can do it. I'd also like to add based on my earlier comment that it wasn't me that filled in your jump 😀
Same position i'm in jambon. Part of my problem is being confident in the level of speed required to clear the gap. And also the fact that i associate big jumps with big pain if it goes wrong.
I understand the point about your lovely jumps being worn down, and if you have your own spot with an agreeable landowner fair enough. But if you build in a public area along an open trail/bway etc then us ground dwelling numpties are probably going to ride them. Worth pointing out that coming up short still has us taking off on the lip, the bit we land on and erode you're so gnar you won't be touching 😉
I did wonder 😉it wasn't me that filled in your jump
...If it was a trail built by others and you add a jump, consideration says make a route round the jump as well so everyone can still enjoy it.
Which was my point too.
We've all been there, making jumps in the woods. The older and hopefully wiser you get, the more you realise that in order to be tolerated by others, little compromises have to be made. If you have to alter an existing trail, make an alternative route. Then the mincers, 4 year olds and the gravitationally challenged can still enjoy themselves as equally as yourself.
Both have their place. If you haven't grown up riding bmx or dj, then doubles can seem pretty daunting.
For people who are learning how to get air, a table is the best way to start. No point hitting a double if you don't know how to relax and jump safely.
Doubles over 10ft can still mess with my head, even though I can easily jump twice as far on tables.
Hopefully this year I will get around to learning how to ride decent sized dirt jumps and get over the fear 😈