Trail vs Enduro Bikes

Depends on what you ride / how fast and how often.

My last Bike was a Bird Aether 7 with a dhx2 coil on the back and a 150mm Lyrik upfront. It was a great allrounder - but at places like Antur I felt battered by just after lunchtime.

Now on a Transition Sentinel which is at the cusp of long travel trail / enduro (shall we call it All-Mountain again?) and the difference is a big one. I have gone up a wheelsize to 29er in the change of bikes and from 150 to 160mm on the fork and from 130mm to 155mm on the rear.

I can blaze through so much chunk I couldn’t do before - even being able to play / skip on stuff where I was previously just surviving.

On the flip side it doesn’t make a bad fist of flow trail centre trails either. With an air shock (X2 factory) on the back it’s fairly playful for the travel and geometry it’s got - with a coil it feels more capable again with more grip and more sucked to the ground.

At the weekend just gone we rode BPW on the Friday (reds and blacks mostly), Brechfa Raven and Gorlech Trails Saturday then a few runs at Tirpentwys followed by a bit of off piste at Risca on the Sunday.

I can’t think of another bike I’d rather have done that weekend on. My mate was on a v3 Santa Cruz 5010 with 130mm Pikes (I keep suggesting he could go up to 140 or 150mm on the front) and he was feeling very battered by the end of the trip. When we’ve swapped over bikes for a few runs his trail bike feels like a hardtail vs mine. His pedals better / is lighter / feels very quick to turn into corners etc - but I wouldn’t swap.

Equally I rode my sentinel (with air shock) back to back just for a short /  steep run with a NP Mega 297 with a 38 front / EXT coil rear and that felt very different. That felt like it wanted to plough through stuff more and felt plusher in general. I’d imagine that would be quicker through rock gardens etc - but felt less playful.

If you're riding Morzine, Dyfi, etc then you 100% deserve to go full enduro... if you want to.

I'm also on a 140-ish bike a lot of the time, but I really like having my 160/180 bike for some rides.

It's a good time to buy a used enduro sled right now as well, eh? 😉

I was in Morzine on a Whyte T130 last year. Steepish angles, 27.5, 130 back and 150 front. I felt like my bike was a bit out of its depth. I now have a Privateer 141 with better 150 Pike Ultimates with slacker head tube, bigger wheels, lower and longer and it’s just so much more confident in the steep and fast stuff. Not sure that answers your question - not been to the Alps but at the Golfie, Lakes and Snowdonia it’s been a much more fun and capable bike when with only a bit more rear travel.

There's more to it than travel. There's geometry, but also the fact that bikes with more travel and slacker geo also tend to be built with heavier duty kit and have bigger tyres and brakes etc.

You should definitely buy my Privateer 141 which I have repeatedly tried to post in the broken classified section without success.

yeah, agree with mols. look on a ruler at the difference in travel. then remember that the first 30% of that is your sag/negative travel, and the last 20% is the occasional big hit, what you are looking at is the diffenrce between 70mm and 80mm of "free movement" for your general bumps/rough stuff.

being more long, low and slack, and being fitted with more DH inspired components is going to make far more of a difference.

 im wondering if a 2nd hand enduro n+1 is worth it?

ANY N+1 is never a bad thing. Most of my riding is on my 140f/130r trail bike (Nicolai Saturn 14) with a build erring slightly on heavier duty. More than enough bike 90% of the time. However, it's nice pulling out my 160f/155r 'enduro' bike for stuff like you describe - Golfie, Dunkeld, etc in my case). I've only ever ridden a bike with 150 travel minimum in the Alps hence have no reference point, but they work well there for sure even if it's - like molgrips says - for more than the travel. The geometry and build is more likely to be better suited.

I'd been riding my Geometron exclusively for a couple of weeks but rode the Nicolai again last night. Reminded me I prefer the shorter-travel on my local trails.

You should definitely buy my Privateer 141

That 1mm of extra travel over his current bike will make all the difference eh

There's definitely quite a large difference even though the travel difference isn't huge.

I have a Yeti SDB130 LR (160f/137r) and a specialized enduro (180F/ 170R) so both reasonably decent travel bikes but up at Dyfi the yeti was well out of its depth whereas the enduro revelled in it.

My thoughts were that it's not just the amount of travel that's important, its what the bike is intended to do - Yeti probably never intended me to take it down Dyfi (hence the existence of the SB150/ SB160) whereas the specialized is intended for exactly that.

I have a Trek Slash as my bike, the last Gen one without the high pivot. I got it to replace a Trek Fuel EX8 (I’m not a trek fanboy…just what I could find!) and I find it not really any worse to pedal and climb to be honest. To be fair, the reason I upgraded was also because I found my Fuel was a size too small, but also for the increased capability. So maybe not a fair test, but if anything I feel much better on the Slash climbing.

Descending it’s a whole new ball game entirely. That will also be some sizing differences in there too but it’s night and day, even on easy trail centre style stuff. In tech it is a magic carpet ride, and it’s much more confident on steep stuff. I’ve not noticed any difficulty handling a lomger bike after like half an hour getting used to it.

There will probably be starker differences in other brands though. Like I would be super overbiked with something like a Nukeproof Giga

I took my 160/135mm geometron to whistler. A bolt broke and I hired a 200/200mm dh bike for a day while it was fixed.

I was quicker on my bike. Probably because I'm used to it.

I rode with some folk on older dh bikes while I was there. The front end of my bike was same head angle and the bars were in almost exactly the same place. This was a 26" XL trek session.

If you want a bigger bike, buy one 😃

Fully agree with the comments about geo. I don't think theres going to be any improvement in that area over my LLS Jeht. My musings are very much on the difference another 20mm+ travel at both ends would make.

bigger bikes take bigger repeated hits, hence you will feel more confident and ride quicker downhill..

shorter travel you need to pick  a better line.

in terms of fork i doubt you have a 38mm stanchion fork on your current bike,  again they are designed to take bigger repeated hits. even my fox rhythm 36 170mm felt a little undergunned at dyfi. although perfectly good for my skillset/speed at enduro events.

choice is always good, just got a tallboy and fitting a 140mm fox36 to it, it'll be adequate backup for ardrock if my slash fails in the weeks before

going from 150/140 to 170/160 has given me an extra 10-15% time saving at  ardrock / boltby / ardmoors ,

although other factors, weather fitness/ skills arent even

I don’t think theres going to be any improvement in that area over my LLS Jeht. My musings are very much on the difference another 20mm+ travel at both ends would make.

Yep it's mainly the extra travel, but also the frame may be more stout and you'll feel less chassis deflection.

My enduro bike only really comes alive going fast and smashing through lots of rocks and roots. Otherwise it can feel a little dull.

I've a v1 transition sentinel (160/140) and a vitus somment crx (170/160)off of the CRC sales.

The sommet crx has posher suspension (fox factory Vs mid range rockshox) but has similar geometry except being about 15mm longer.

The sommet is significantly faster over rough downhill trails and eats chunk way better than the sentinel.

There is an overlap in capability. However at either end of the spectrum they definitely cover different types of riding

Interesting thread, I'll keep an eye on it, I'm currently trying to decide how Enduro I want my n+1 to be. Part of me wants to go full enduro but the part of me that has to pedal it & carry it doesn't want to go too big.

I've had a day and a bit on a Deviate Highlander which I've loved riding but want something a bit bigger than that but probably not as big as their Claymore.

My musings are very much on the difference another 20mm+ travel at both ends would make.

The answer is, as always, it depends. Is comfort the most important thing, or outright, raw speed?

A current (modern) Enduro bike is now a pretty niche ownership prospect, to one I repeatedly question the benefit of actually owning one, or a well set up trail bike, with a couple of setup options which might allow for a coil shock & a heavier duty wheelset & tyres.

I think in 98% of scenarios, my trail bike is faster than my enduro bike - and the other 2% doesn’t make up for the 98. That said, I don’t ride at machine built places like Dyfi or Antur, I’d much rather be on some dirty, scraped in, off piste fall line.

I can see more of a benefit to having something bigger for that type of riding, if that’s your thing 🙂

It was hard not to feel a little outgunned. I also get the same feeling everytime i go to Dyfi or Antur even though the Jeht is more capable than i am.

Is there much difference between these types of bikes? I’m finding the club i ride with is getting more and more gravity focused and so im wondering if a 2nd hand enduro n+1 is worth it? Or is this all just in my head?

What do you mean outgunned?  and what is in your head? ie are you last down the hill and dont want to be? or are they riding those bikes differently to you and thats how you'd like to ride?

I ask this as, I've ridden in groups before or been places where the fastest person on the trail was on a 66 degree hardtail, no 38mm stanchioned fork, no LLS just ability.

Sure a LLS 170 front and rear bike would help you plough roots or rock gardens, but you still need to know when to brake and how to turn!

My normal ride is a Kenevo SL 170/170 with 38s but I recently rode at Bikepark Klinovec on a Levo SL2 160/150 with the latest Lyrics. Both are significantly more able than I'll ever be. The red and black didn't really offer anything to bother either bike but the orange was a steep, steppy, rocky chunk-fest and the smaller bike coped with my cack-handed lack of ability with aplomb. I think I would have been faster/more comfortable on my bike but suspect that's as much to do with familiarity and fear of damaging my mate's brand new bike than the KSL being significantly better in my hands.

N+1 is always good though...

To me, it depends on whether it’s going to an only bike or an n+1.

Yes, longer travel and modern geometry make a difference, not least because they’re confidence inspiring.

However if you got a 170-180 enduro rig, it may be worth also considering downsizing your trail bike to a short travel trail bike to minimise crossover and redundancy.

I'd probably seperate the bikes further than 20mm (I know travel isn't everything but its a marker) - get a full on 180/190mm zebb'd up "park" bike and keep/shrink your current bike - that way you get a true contrast between them, my two mtbs are 130mm and 200mm respectively

Did I meet you last week, are you the chap who broke his hand? If so, I'm the guy with the green rocketmax. Which is the answer to your question too!

I have two bikes that sit in this area, both XL & both mentioned above, they are...

Transition sentinel v2, 160 front, 150 rear, full 29er, currently Fox 36 & Float x2 with Exo+ Maxxis, etc

Nukeproof Mega v4 297, 170 front, 165 rear, MX wheels, currently Fox 38 & Fast coil with DD Maxxis etc

On paper they read very similar, but in reality they a quite different, the Transition is lighter, pedals better, carries speed better across flatter terrain, has a livelier, poppier feel, but also has a slacker head angle, lower stack & longer wheel base, its also quicker to lose composure in the big stuff and can be more cumbersome in tight turns.

The Mega is a plough, its hammers thru the rough, but is noticeably heavier, the frame and the build, it rolls slower & require much more energy to cover ground, but it is much more composed in the rough, handles the steep stuff better with its higher stack and turns better with the smaller wheelbase & smaller rear wheel.

I Prefer the rolling speed of the full 29er in general, obviously the lighter weight of the transition, but the higher stack & shorter reach & steeper head angle of the Nukeproof, I often ponder combining them both but always find a compromise & have no real idea where I would land, I often look at the new Bird Aeris AM carbon, the Transition Patrol, and several others, what I would say is know the geo, the fit and the suspension platform you want, the difference I notice least is the travel amount!!

Did I meet you last week, are you the chap who broke his hand? If so, I’m the guy with the green rocketmax. Which is the answer to your question too!

Ha ha, hiya buddy. Hope you had a great honeymoon? A rocket as n+1 would be luverly 🙂

What do you mean outgunned?  and what is in your head? ie are you last down the hill and dont want to be? or are they riding those bikes differently to you and thats how you’d like to ride?

Neither of those strangely, i'm generally 'mid pack'. Its more a straightforward thing of seeing that nearly everyone else is on a bigger bike and wondering if that would make any real difference.

An absolutely marvellous week, couldn't have hoped for any more.

I never felt underbiked on the rocketmax, it's such a capable bike. My only issues are irritating chain slap and bouncing off gears a few times in the bumpy sections, and a mysterious vanishing spoke on the rear wheel. Geometry is closer to that of a downhill bike than the jeht, and the extra travel just gives the confidence to tackle anything.

Hope the hand heals up fast pal.

Are you happy with the ride feel of the suspension and not bottoming out? If you get more travel, you'll have to adjust something like less air in the spring or removing spacers, to make use of it, and then would you be satisfied with the feel.

Is there much difference between these types of bikes?

Yeah, about 3kg.

Weight can actually be a benefit though when riding downhill.

can you go and demo one @Blackflag

santa cruz have a day coming up, ardrock, glentress, bpw and many local bike shops demo/hire bikes etc.

£50-90 for day is a massive saving if you buy the wrong bike, particularly the way the second hand market has gone.

some bikes just feel right, years a go i wanted a bronson, but on riding one i wasnt overly impressed prefered my shorter travel 5010 which was more far more fun to ride.

ps. only been to dyfi the one time and i'd say 3 out of 5 riders had downhill bikes

I am also one of the 'there is more to it than just travel'. Geometry, weight, stiffness, tyres, brakes etc all play a really big part of how a bike feels over really chunky stuff. Add in that I am the limiting factor, not the bike, and I err on 'rather a bike for 90% of my riding' than buying one for 10% of my riding...

YMMV, N+1FTW etc.

If you're pondering n+1 I'd go for a DH bike rather than enduro to really have two bikes that cover different jobs.

It offers a different experience to a trail/enduro bike and saves the main bike from getting battered on holidays and uplift.

As a ‘1 bike’ mtb’er I go with the overbiking principle, on the basis it’ll get me up and down everything, and flatter trails are boring anyway…works for me!
Bizarrely I tried a friends 120mm Cannondale Scalpel Carbon XC bike and found it significantly slower uphill than my 160mm Enduro bike, as well as less capable downhill. Can’t explain why but this was confirmed by another rider who tried both bikes.

even though the Jeht is more capable than i am

Most important words in the OP's post.

I've got the shorter travel Flare Max, never had an issue keeping up with 160/170 travel friends on Scotlands' most full-on trails.

Put a -2 headset in the Jeht, and add stiffer forks - makes a world of difference.

Let OP have an enduro bike if he wants 😀

There's a lot of sense in having a 140mm bike and a 160/170mm bike, I reckon.

Variety is the spice of life, after all.

I’ve got the shorter travel Flare Max, never had an issue keeping up with 160/170 travel friends on Scotlands’ most full-on trails.

But would you be faster on a 160/170?

Let OP have an enduro bike if he wants 😀

Ha ha. Quite. There seems to be a few generic STW responses along the lines of "you don't need one cos you can do everything on your current bike" I already know that cos thats exactly what i am currently doing.

My question was: are proper enduro bikes noticeably better at that type of riding?

Life’s too short, buy the damned bike you want.

Life’s too short, buy the damned bike you want.

I'm now on marketplace looking at 2nd hand DH bikes 🙂

There seems to be a few generic STW responses along the lines of “you don’t need one cos you can do everything on your current bike”

That's because everyone on here is a riding legend and anything that makes riding easier is a "skills compensator".

I’m now on marketplace looking at 2nd hand DH bikes 🙂

Do any of your riding mates have DH bikes? If you go to the Alps on a DH bike and everyone else is on enduro-sleds they'll be leaving you behind every time the trail isn't pointing straight down a mountain.

I LOVE downhill bikes but I admitted defeat in around 2013.

My question was: are proper enduro bikes noticeably better at that type of riding?

Yes.

For that type of riding, I'd say without question yes. I posted earlier saying I've ridden in the Alps wtth anything less than a 160/150 enduro-style bike, but riding an enduro bike back-to-back with my 140/130 trail bike on the most enduroy/Alpsy local trails I have, my enduro bike is better on those bits. Probably only marginally quicker but it's much more composed and less frantic feeling - some might say that's less exciting though.

And:

I’m now on marketplace looking at 2nd hand DH bikes 🙂

Been there, done that. On the right terrain they're (unsurprisingly) much better than an enduro bike, but I found the use window very narrow. That's despite being 60mins from Inners and about 3hrs from Ft William. Also admitted defeat - 2014 for me after a thumb-breaking incident at Nevis range.

I'd agree, the window of use for DH bikes is way too narrow to make sense for me as well.

I have a linkage to convert my Bird to 180mm rear travel and I never even bother using it TBH.

160/180 is very versatile though. Done big rides in Scotland/Lakes/Wales and even the Tour of Mont Blanc on it (a 140mm bike might have been better for that though).

Thanks chaps, yes on reflection maybe a DH bike is probably a bit too much of an over reaction and would end up being an expensive shed space filler. Cheers

My question was: are proper enduro bikes noticeably better at that type of riding?

As I said before, what is ‘noticeably better’ to you? Feeling safer, going faster, doing bigger jumps, etc?

Personally, I would say no, they arnt noticeably better than a really good trail bike. But clearly I’m in the minority with my views.

As I said before, what is ‘noticeably better’ to you? Feeling safer, going faster, doing bigger jumps, etc?

OK be very specific then... if i were to take my 140/150 Jeht (150 Pike Ultimates, MM 2.4 F Tyre, 200mm 4pot brakes) down Race Track / 50 Hits / Turns In the Ferns at Dyfi would i notice any material difference in speed / stability / reduced chatter if i was on something like a Trek Slash?

would i notice any material difference in speed / stability / reduced chatter if i was on something like a Trek Slash?

I think you would notice an improvement, primarily by virtue of the fork on the slash being beefier as well as longer travel, with the extra travel on the rear allowing you to run things a bit softer.

The pike on your cotic is a fair bit flexier than something like a fox 38/zeb.and I suspect the slash frame would be overall stiffer/less flexy than the cotic.

You could probably get 80% of the improvement by putting the same fork (adjusted for an appropriate amount of travel) on your cotic

If you want an Enduro / longer travel bike, and have the cash, then, why not? As someone else pointed out though, increasing the travel by 10mm or so will likely result in quite a lot of overlap between the current bike and a new bike.

Other option would be to invest in some new / second set of forks/wheels/tyres. A Lyric or a Zeb for instance. Or coil fork and shock. Then beefier wheels/DH/Double-down casing 2.5/2.6 rubber. And just swap those onto the bike when you're going to be visiting Bike Parks. It'd be a faff, and depends how often you'd need to do it; if it was monthly, probably not worthwhile, if it was twice a year, it might be ...

It’s easy to underestimate how incredibly sensitive humans can be to super subtle changes, even when we’re not that great at doing whatever we’re doing!

That point about losing a chunk of travel to sag and another chunk to bottom out resistance makes it easier to understand how adding a small amount of travel can make quite a difference.

Also, more damped tyres (both casing and compound) really calm a bike down.

And stiffer forks bind less under hard hits, so eat rock gardens better and feel better when braking hard on the steeps - but do they find as much grip in flat natural corners where the bike is tipped over and you need flex?

I’m currently in the Alps and today I’ve been riding a 170/170 Radon Swoop because my 160/150 Stumpjumper Evo is in the bike shop.

The Swoop has similar geometry to my Stumpjumper, just more travel. Similar reach, similar head angle.

It’s running a 38 vs a 36 fork.

I’ve had fun riding the Swoop, but I’m very happy to be getting my Stumpjumper back tomorrow, and I’ll be more confident riding it.

So I’m not convinced that full Enduro is that much of a benefit after all?

My theory is that there's a bit of an MTB travel bell curve that runs alongside rider's ages.

They start off only being able to afford a HT, then maybe pick up a used trail bike, careers progress, disposable grows and mates start tooling up (where the OP is at currently?) and thus travel numbers go up. Then kids/mortgage/life happens and if you manage to stick with it at all you'll want something a bit more practical for all rounder, local trails and the odd trip to Wales/Scotland and the travel figures go down again... Then you die.

Get the big bike while you're in a position to make use of such a toy just remember you'll be chopping it in once you go and get someone knocked up 😉

Sorry, no idea why i wrote Pikes, my Jeht has 150 Lyrics. Duh.

Cookeaa - appreciate the sentiment but i'm 53 🙂

I’m 52 and just bought my most Enduro-est bike ever. Can’t wait, age is irrelevant!

Maybe more of a 'W' then?

A bit of a travel uptick before you finally cark it.

Like most people I've gone up, down, back up and down a bit on the travel ladder.

I've done Dyfi on an Aether with 150/130 and then on my Edit with 170/170 both on 27.5 wheels/coil shock and suprise suprise its smoother, possibly faster but no more fun.

I'm also 53 and the best (most confident) year of riding I've ever had was when I bought the Aether for my 50th. Bigger jumps, bigger drops, steeper tech, etc.

So I don't think there's any magic involved here, the biggest change for me was moving from a size small Edit V1 to a size medium Aether, rather than adding more travel. In fact I've just reduced the fork back to 160 and the Edit feels more confidence.

I think there are so many factors at play, its hard to pin it onto just one thing.

If you gel with a bike can be a big factor. If the sizing works for you. The geometry is right. Then add travel. Throw in weight. Components etc etc.

I ran a Norco Optic for a few years and loved it (140F 125R). Rode everything on it. XC loops, bike parks, The Megavalanche. I wasnt as quick as my friends, but i enjoyed the challenge of doing my best keeping up. I was a strong supporter of less is more.

One particular ride on a rough track my riding buddies disappeared off into the distance. It was at that point i decided that short travel was no longer for me. I went from the Optic to a Vitus Sommet (170F 162R). It was a beast of a bike that allowed me to plough a lot harder than previously. This closed the gap between my friends.

Then at the start of this year i treated myself to a Raaw Madonna V3 (170F 160R). I am now faster on certain tracks than my friends. Is it the coil shock? The shorter reach? The longer rear end? Has my riding improved.... who knows, but what is certain is a ruddy love riding it.

Yes its weighs a ton. Yes its not the right tool for every trail ( I cruised along cycle paths on the seafront the other day, it was a chilled bimble). But when i am up to speed on it, its bloody amazing, the rougher the better!

I compliment the big bike with a Specialized Chisel XC hardtail, so can go big or go small. (i am thinking of replacing it with the new Chisel FS, just for a bit of comfort).

So ultimately... if you want more travel, go for it. The downsides are much smaller these days, compared to days of old when big travel was horrible to pedal. Just be aware that in certain circumstances, it might not be as fun as a 'smaller' bike.

Sorry, no idea why i wrote Pikes, my Jeht has 150 Lyrics. Duh.

less of a difference in that case then, but probably noticeable, just a lot less so.

I went from a carbon enduro bike with 160mm travel (fox 36) front and rear, to a carbon "trail" (or maybe some might call it all mountain) bike with 160mm front travel (with exactly the same forks - I moved them from the enduro bike to the trail bike) ,and 145mm rear travel, but otherwise similiar geo , tyres, brakes etc. There isnt much difference between them ,which is as you'd expect, given that the only real difference is 15mm more travel on the rear. The enduro bike is slightly more composed on very rough stuff due to the extra 15mm travel on the rear, but it is only slight.

You've got potentially more of a difference due to moving from steel frame to carbon (assuming carbon slash) - I think you're going to have to go for a test ride to find out whether its going to be worth it to you.

just get the carbon 9.7 slash, its a great bike. mine is such an upgrade to my XTR/fox36 factory spec'd orbea 150/140.

it'd be another level again with a 38mm stanchion. zebs are cheap on merlin..