[Closed] Trail ettiquette - going up instead of down

Unless a trail is specifically marked for a direction, trail rules (IMBA at least) are that riders going uphill always have right of way over those going down. And all cyclists give way to horses and pedestrians, regardless of direction.

A couple of years ago I met a few keen XC racers pedaling up a DH trail. To this day I have no idea what they were doing. Perhaps they were lost; about 70% of it is impossible to ride up.

They actually stood their ground for a while, perhaps assuming I would adhere to imba guidlines 😈

Well you are wrong.

Arguing with a recumbent rider about what is correct and what is quite clearly, utterly, beyond question WRONG. Is the error you made.

I get that BKB is multidirectional and is open to all but i do also think just because you can, doesn't mean you should...I personally wouldn't consider riding up BKB and risk ruining someone's descent; there's no need to risk causing a crash/confrontation. Its rare but it happens: couple of years ago I came down BKB and was met by a mum with a buggy, 2 toddlers (out of buggy) & a dog (not on leash) pushing up.

Didn't you see his little flag?

I've always thought that 'rule' about descenders giving way to ascenders was ridiculous. But I think IMBA also tells you to not ride in the wet...

No idea where you are talking abiout but unless a trasck is posted by the landowner or his agent then no one should assume anything and as in almost all sports fastest gives way and downhill gives way to up. Doesn't suit everyone I know but that's life.

I've always thought that 'rule' about descenders giving way to ascenders was ridiculous. But I think IMBA also tells you to not ride in the wet...

Common sense innit? Always give way to those going up the hill, it's much harder to get going again if you're climbing.

Sounds like it was Barry, and yes he does.

Recumbents approached directly from in front make great practice ramps. And the flag poles are similar to slalom skiing.

Common sense innit? Always give way to those going up the hill, it's much harder to get going again if you're climbing.

No no no, maximise the fun going down and have a rest when going up. MOAR ENDURO!!!;)

Didn't you see his little flag?

Is that a euphemism?

No no no, maximise the fun going down and have a rest when going up. MOAR ENDURO!!!;)

There's never any rest when you're 18 stone and shod head to toe in body armour. #lifeofanendurorider

If it's a not a trail centre or race event then it's two way traffic.. And yes give way to those going uphill.

"nice bike. I admire your bravery, 99% of the traffic is downhill at speed here, so using it as a climb can be a bit hairy. Enjoy your ride, toodeloo."

Hopefully common sense kicks in.

He can ride it how he wants, but everyone will enjoy it more if he understands the local trails better. Done in a nice way, like.

Nonsense. It's attitudes like that that give us a bad reputation, if you are going so fast down hill that you can't give way to someone coming in the opposite direction on unofficial routes then you are out of control, and riding beyond your ability.

At the very least you should check the trail is clear before blindly blasting down it with that kind of self entitlement.

Childs face

So what about non locals who have never ridden/walked with their kids/dogs are they meant to realise its an unofficial downhill run (that will be a no then) so it is plain stupid to expect no-one to be climbing the hill.

If it's a not a trail centre or race event then it's two way traffic.. And yes give way to those going uphill.

Amen.

Thomas the Wise Tank Engine he say, "it's not [i]wrong[/i], but we just don't do it...

Tbh I always give way to people going down hills. Their ride is spoiled more by having to stop than mine given I'll be moving much slower. That seems a much better compromise to me...

Ditto, I always give way to those going downhill. They've earned it by already doing the climb and shouldn't have the fun of the descent interrupted.

Two way traffic on this trail is a bit unusual as it is such a well known and well used trail. It is pretty much an official trail and one of about four in the area that have been managed http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/now-barry-knows-better-1.
(sorry no URL link, those little grey buttons make me crash out of the forum)

There is also a nice bridlepath running alongside it. It is however still on open access land.

Ditto, I always give way to those going downhill. They've earned it by already doing the climb and shouldn't have the fun of the descent interrupted.

Two way traffic on this trail is a bit unusual as it is such a well known and well used trail. It is pretty much an official trail and one of about four in the area that have been managed

I understand the reasoning behind the giving way to the up-hillers, but I'm not a spoilsport so I just hop to one side and let the down-hillers have their fun.

Does no-one here still enjoy the satisfaction of clearing a 'nice little climb'???

I don't know the trail but assuming it's not on an actual bike park, where losing a little speed will mean you're unable to clear the next obstacle, if you see someone approaching - slow down...
With a bit of extra time to react, you might see that the uphiller is knackered and will stop for a break, otherwise at slower speeds you may be able to roll through at a wider spot.
You are not sponsored by redbull and it's not down to the second between you, ratboy or Sam Hill.

Does no-one here still enjoy the satisfaction of clearing a 'nice little climb'???

Yes, absolutely. There are climbs for which a dab-free ascent is just as much of a fun challenge to me as the descent. That said I'm not averse to giving way to downhillers.

I don't know the trail but assuming it's not on an actual bike park, where losing a little speed will mean you're unable to clear the next obstacle, if you see someone approaching - slow down...

so no specific directional arrows or anything like that

based on the above .

and his point of view is that the trails are for all to use in any direction they choose.

his point of view above is correct - without signs there is no up there is no down - just trails..... how did you get to the top - what if he was coming down there - were you going to jump out of his way and immediately yield to him ?

give and take and live in peace - you werent on a championship winning run - neither was he , if you both slow down and pass each other safely and controlled we will all get along nicely. If you want fully directionalized scaletrix tracks get your self along to a real trail centre with signposts and all...

I too get satisfaction from cleaning a climb, I just prefer the buzz I get from uninterrupted downs so I adjust my 'rules' accordingly.

I'll always give way to downhillers, and expect to be given way when riding down. It's easier and safer all round, plus maximises fun!

[i]expect to be given way when riding down[/i]

tbh, on any multi-directional, non bike dedicated, trail [i]expecting[/i] anything from other users is likely to be a recipe for conflict at best.

Ah the "Everyone knows" signs.... there be the problem

The exit gates / fence, braking bumps, berms and continual volume of traffic are a bit of a hint too. That said, each to their own, as long as no-one was being a tit who cares.

I'll be extra vigilant on Winterfold and Pitch today.

I'll always give way to downhillers, and expect to be given way when riding down. It's easier and safer

It's not though is it, if you're climbing a steep/rough trail your speed is likely to be <3mph, if it's a fast, blind section and someone comes round the corner who has more time to react, the guy looking 30m ahead, with momentum to change lines and will cover the distance to the climber in a few seconds (or fractions of) or the climber, who'll barely move, and to get out the way would probably need to dismount?

Same as sailing, the windward (uphill) boat gives way because they're judged to be better able to maneuver with their greater speed and ability to change direction.

I assume it's the recently ex golfers who don't accept that those going up have priority?

It applies to walkers, climbers, pretty much everyone outdoors.
It's common sense and courteous.

This is where "Right of Way" and "Trail Etiquette" diverge.

[b]Right of Way[/b] might give priority to anyone coming up... (They have a right to stand their ground.)
but...
[b]Trail Etiquette[/b] would in my view always lead me as a rider to get right out of the way of another rider coming down, so as to avoid spoiling their fun.

Very different things.

STRAAAAAAAAVA!

I doubt any local rider would ride up with out being very nervous of someone at high speed coming in the opposite direction.

Someone new to the area might welcome friendly advice of the best way to get to the top, getting the tone right is the thing.

STRAAAAAAAAVA!

Right of Way might give priority to anyone coming up... (They have a right to stand their ground.)
but...
Trail Etiquette would in my view always lead me as a rider to get right out of the way of another rider coming down, so as to avoid spoiling their fun.
Very different things.

Exactly! When I'm going up I'll always try to get out of the way of someone descending. Conversely if I see someone coming up who looks like they're on a mission, maybe trying to clean a climb or achieve a quick time up it, then I'll try to get out of their way. I just want everyone to have as much fun as possible!

If I'm riding down something and someone else is riding up the other way I realise that I need to find the proper descent. If they can ride up it on a recumbent I realise that I need to take a long hard look at myself and ride the proper descent.

If I'm riding up and unmarked trail and someone blasts round a blind corner unable to give way to me and hits me, who do you think could have avoided that situation?

Of course if you're bimbling up it's nice to let people enjoy their descent, and if you're pushing up it's plain rude not to get out of the way, but it's still the descending rider's responsibility to avoid a collision (within reason).

The exception of course is trail centres, where trail direction is clearly marked.

if you both slow down and pass each other safely and controlled we will all get along nicely.

+1

Its not a race and you both have a responsibility for one anothers safety, so don't be a dick.

Interesting to note that when I've ridden in the USA their trail centers aren't directional, so you can often meet people coming the other way and amazingly everyone uses common sense and are friendly. Some even stop for a chat 🙂

if you are going so fast down hill that you can't give way to someone coming in the opposite direction on unofficial routes then you are out of control, and riding beyond your ability

Otherwise known as having fun.

I take the point though, you need to be aware of whats around you. I'd happily step aside if I was riding up and someone came blasting down (so long as its not on a direction marked climb), I think you get more time to see things coming when you're climbing, makes sense to me.

..childs face

...or even a

[img] [/img]

mattyfez - Member
..if you are going so fast down hill that you can't give way to someone coming in the opposite direction on unofficial routes then you are out of control, and riding beyond your ability....

trail_rat - Member
...If you want fully directionalized scaletrix tracks get your self along to a real trail centre with signposts and all...

That sums it up nicely.

so no specific directional arrows or anything like that

based on the above .

and his point of view is that the trails are for all to use in any direction they choose.

his point of view above is correct - without signs there is no up there is no down - just trails..... how did you get to the top - what if he was coming down there - were you going to jump out of his way and immediately yield to him ?

give and take and live in peace - you werent on a championship winning run - neither was he , if you both slow down and pass each other safely and controlled we will all get along nicely. If you want fully directionalized scaletrix tracks get your self along to a real trail centre with signposts and all...

As you've quoted me I'll assume your reply is specifically directed at me and not the wider forum.

I'm happy to stand corrected that he had right of way as it's something I didn't know. However, my common sense kicked in and, for the avoidance of doubt, I yielded to the rider immediately and was able to come to a controlled stop and we had a very friendly 20 minute convo.

There was no discussion on who was right or wrong as it wasn’t an issue – nobody was confrontational, nothing argumentative was said, no kittens were in danger. In fact it was a wholly unremarkable event. It was only on the drive home that it briefly occurred to me that cycling up the trail might not be the most sensible idea.

🙂

Basically these threads just show how differently people approach mountain biking. Sometimes it's grey areas but BKB was built as a descent and is clearly a descent, riding up it is downright antisocial. Just because you can doesn't mean it's not idiotic. You can try and ride up a water slide if you like but when someone slides into you don't say I HAVE RIGHTS! THERE WERE NO SIGNS! I'M NOT A SWIMMER SO HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW WATER SLIDES ARE DOWN ONLY! Most people don't need signs everywhere to tell them not to do something so stupid. It's come to a pretty pass if you think "There wasn't a sign" means it's fine. There's no sign that tells you not to pitch a tent in the middle of the trail.

I'll always try to give way to a descender; you treat others as you'd like to be treated, and it's easier. It's the same as giving way to a faster descender or climber. But I don't expect/demand it, the right thing to do is for both to assess the situation and do what's right in that situation.

Climbing you are in a better position to react though, it's safer and easier and minimises the impact on both riders. People come up with some pretty ridiculous arguments about this- straight away we have "if you can't stop in the distance you're going too fast/incompetent" (because why would you not sneak in a little insult?) but that's just wilfully misrepresenting- even when you can stop from speed in the distance it's still obviously harder than stopping from lower speed, while going upwards. It's just physics. And when your first move is to misrepresent, that's just admitting you know your argument is weak tbh.

But it doesn't seem like safety and ease is actually the deciding factor; it's just the battleground people use to make their position seem less personally motivated. What it really is, is "I like doing X more so anyone doing Y should give way". Nothing wrong with that, just be honest.

Standard code for none trail centre stuff is that you give way to those down the hill, dunno how well known this is tho.
Common sense says both parties slow down and pass each other safely, but unless they're xc racers the climbing party won't have much speed to lose so again it will be the DHer giving way "the most".
You can choose to give way when you are climbing but you shouldn't [i]expect[/i] it from others. I'd almost certainly* give way for a DH rider if I was out walking, but I wouldn't [i]expect[/i] walkers to do it for me when riding down (even tho in most cases it's a lot easier for a walker to step aside than a rider to yield - and a lot do out on techy trails) When climbing I often move over for riders heading down but if I was on for cleaning a climb I hadn't managed before (ie slow thrutchy, just about keeping the pedals turning) I'd probably be expecting the usual code to apply.

*exception being if I had kids with me, in which case I'd do whatever made sense to keep them safe, have had a run in with an idiot not slowing down.

Last time I was on Cragg Quarry I met a couple of people going the wrong way. I pointed this out for their own good as Cragg the wrong way just does not work.
The best is the dog walkers walking the wrong way on the bottom of Hurstwood, they are asking for serious injury.

Northwind +1

I don't care about arbitrary rules that someone comes up with or direction markings, it's about common sense. Single track is for riding down and double track for climbing back up where you can more safely avoid collisions with anyone coming down.

Any knob out there who doesn't know that and climbs up something like BKB is clearly dangerously deranged and has no place on the trails. Personally I would have said something pretty severe to him and hopefully he would have pissed off so he didn't endanger anyone else.

Single track is for riding down and double track for climbing back up where you can more safely avoid collisions with anyone coming down

says the fat bvger with no climbing ability 😆

I guess you're trolling, but technical singletrack climbs are the pinnacle of mountain biking for me. If someone can ride up it on a recumbent its clearly not that difficult or obviously ridden as a descent. All that's needed is a friendly word to avoid accidents

Bikes are the least of your worries on non-trail centre paths anyway, horses, families with young children and dogs etc are likely to be less predictable and a good reason to ride within our ability.

forzafkawi - Member

Single track is for riding down and double track for climbing back up

Nah, that's just bollocks.

Depends if it is a technical or steep climb when I cannot restart then I will demand/expect/want right of way going uphill.

All other times i will give way as going downhill ismuch more fun and stopping for me is not big deal

I guess you're trolling

I don't care about arbitrary rules that someone comes up with or direction markings

It does get into trouble when you have an arsey walker infront of you heading down as you're supposed to yield to them anyway, if there's no way to get passed safely I suggest a cake break until misery guts has gone somewhere else to be miserable.

Direction markings also make sense, most trail centres seem to be fairly well used, getting everyone going int he right direction [i]that the trail is designed for[/i] will make everything a lot smoother. Fair game in the dark tho 😉

Sometimes it's grey areas [b]but BKB was built as a descent [/b]and is clearly a descent, riding up it is downright antisocial. Just because you can doesn't mean it's not idiotic.

Yes, this is sensible.

For those not of the area, BKB is not a name for a bit of long established bit of bridleway that the local bullies have decreed is only to be ridden in a specific direction - it's not a public right of way. Surrey hills is a funny old place - kind of a trail centre in all but name and without markings and direction signs. Kind of wish it had tbh.

kind of a trail centre in all but name and without markings and direction signs. Kind of wish it had tbh.

We've got some waymarked trails in a local wood, with signs showing no entry for walkers, do not climb, etc. Guess what happens, all the time?

For those that don't know the trail in question, it has big berms at the bottom.

Only an inexperienced non-local rider would try riding up.

Most of the general points about climbing on single track are valid but not when you know this trail.

but BKB was built as a descent and is clearly a descent, riding up it is downright antisocial. Just because you can doesn't mean it's not idiotic. You can try and ride up a water slide if you like but when someone slides into you don't say I HAVE RIGHTS! THERE WERE NO SIGNS! I'M NOT A SWIMMER SO HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW WATER SLIDES ARE DOWN ONLY!

Been to a water park recently? There are signs saying not to go up the water slides. No signs, it's just a trail. Again, if you can ride a recumbent trike up it, it is certainly not going to be exclusively ridden downwards (and yeah I'm aware of the trail having ridden it once or twice when I lived in London, most ride it down and it's better down but without signs it's a 2 way route and I certainly wouldn't want to assume no one going uphill/stopped in front of me.)

If there are no signs, people will ride, walk and push (bikes and buggies) up.

Junkyard - lazarus

Depends if it is a technical or steep climb when I cannot restart then I will [b]demand[/b]/expect/[b]want[/b] right of way going uphill.

This must be great to see in action!

So you never get non locals riding it then?

So you never get non locals riding it then?

it's not a public right of way

and

is clearly a descent

it has big berms at the bottom

Maybe if you were fit enough you'd be able to use the berms going uphill as well. 😉

Personally I think anyone stupid enough to walk (espcially pushing a buggy) or ride up something like Barry Knows Best deserves their place in the Darwin Awards.

(And that is trolling).

I came across some walkers walking down parallel universe at llandegla last time I was there. I suppose at least they were going in the right direction.

I had a pleasant chat with them, asked them if they knew they were walking on a bike trail and a fast one at that- they said they knew, and fancied doing it anyway.

For those who are notfamiliar with llandegla, there are lots of signs indicating that certain trails are bike only, and the direction of travel.

One other thing to bear in mind is that a bike going downhill fast makes a lot more noise than a bike going uphill, so anyone coming up something that is often a descent is much more likely to hear a rider coming in the other direction than vice versa.

I assume it's the recently ex golfers who don't accept that those going up have priority?

I'll always try to give way to a descender; you treat others as you'd like to be treated,

Didn't the OP say the person going up BKB was on a recumbant? Which pretty much defines the problem...

No - will be celebrating my quarter century MTBing, or rather owning an MTB in a month.
Edit - so well before IMBA rules came over here.

Nearly 30 years for me, And I always as much as possible try give way to people descending, it just seems the natural and right thing to do.
As far as IMBA rules 🙄 I'm sure they decided there should be a rule for everything and more or less cut and pasted a section from the highway code. It's difficult for a HGV to get started on a steep wet road, but that has nothing to do with Mtb'rs riding in the woods.

A lot of problems come up the moment we think a descent where you have to slow up for a moment is 'ruined'. It'd be ruined if it was a race run, pretty much anywhere else, OP situ included as random as it may be, it's just one of those things.

It's difficult for a HGV to get started on a steep wet road, but that has nothing to do with Mtb'rs riding in the woods.

Anyway, the faster-moving trail user has the greatest duty of care to other trail users, pretty simple really. Works in a number of situations. I'd give way to a descender most of the time but we shouldn't expect it.

Today, I learned that doing whatever you want to do is fine, as long as there's not a sign. My boss isn't happy that I shat on his laptop but I pointed him at this thread and he said, fair dos, I'll make a sign. And then, unless that sign is remarkably prescient or all-encompassing, I'm going to piss in his ear.

I'm not familiar with this BKB trail (which may be an exceptional case), but surely in general, if you're on a multi-user trail not in an MTB trail centre why the heck should "etiquette" deem that descenders have right of way? If it's a nice technical descent then it must also be a good technical climb which to some of us, is also fun and challenging.
What's more, if you stop on a technical climb it can be harder to get going again than if you're descending. So those of you who think people going up are spoiling your fun, perhaps consider that you might be spoiling their fun.

a multi-user trail

Not sure BKB would/should be considered a 'multi user trail'. It's not a footpath or a bridleway - just a path/trail built by bike riders on private land. It's there, without signage or barriers so I guess it is available to all but it's blindingly obvious what it's there for (and what direction it should be ridden in). For me 'the rules' change in that scenario.

But I'm talking about general trail etiquette not specifically BKB which sounds like an exception (as I already said above)

I think we're all missing something pretty amazing... aren't recumbent bikes notoriously difficult to ride up hill? I wouldn't consider riding up BKB to be particularly easy on a normal bike (not that I've ever even thought about doing it) this man must be an absolute powerhouse of leg muscle!

aren't recumbent bikes notoriously difficult to ride up hill?

Bikes are - it's a balance thing mostly. Trikes (what this guys was on) on the other hand are one of the easiest bits of kit to get up a hill ever made. With no balance issues to worry about you just simply can't go too slow to stall - they can be geared quite stupidly small and you can winch yourself up (very slowly) practically anything.

Trikes (what this guys was on) on the other hand are one of the easiest bits of kit to get up a hill ever made.

Never thought of it like that. Anyone for a non-recumbent mountain trike?

I always give way to people booming down because that's fun. However I'm happy riding up as well. If you think it's too steep to stop and start ride uphill more. Unless there's an arrow for direction of course.

/old man mode on/ Of course in the good old days, when BKB was just a deer track and Peaslake a sleepy, out of the way village, you couldn't even ride up the trail as it ended in a rooty, rutted, sketchy cliff like bank. The purpose built, bike park style, beamed, switchback track was made to make the descent easier, reduce erosion and appease the locals. Hmmm, good times.... /old man mode off/. Interestingly, Strava has recorded 6,752 separate people riding down BKB, not bad for a "hidden" trail.

smatkins1 - Member

I think we're all missing something pretty amazing... aren't recumbent bikes notoriously difficult to ride up hill? I wouldn't consider riding up BKB to be particularly easy on a normal bike (not that I've ever even thought about doing it) t[b]his man must be an absolute powerhouse of leg muscle![/b]

He really wasn't. He was mid-60s and not particularly fit looking. The gearing on the trike was particularly helpful.

Thinking about it, whilst it was a proper off-road trike, it was very low and long so I suspect it would ground out easily on most trails, BKB included.

Lolzies 😆

Where open access riding meets trail centre mindsets..

On our local trails you're looking at climbing up a hill to ride down it.. People travel from all over the country to ride our trails, and the only reference is the OS map..
One of my favourite climbs is also a favourite descent.. One of the most famous descents in the area is only reachable by carrying up (unless you want a six mile diversion to reach the top, which would be by way of another popular descent).. You can expect to meet people riding in any direction depending on which loop they've concocted after a few hours poring over a map..
All of these trails are also popular with ramblers and families too..

If you can't handle the concept of riding open access trails, piss off to a trail centre where everything is simple enough for even the most golfy riders to cope with..

(not aimed at the OP BTW, just addressing some of the responses)