[Closed] Trail Etiquette

this amazing young goddess

I think you answered your own question. 😆

I always thought that uphill rider has RoW? Since its easier for the downhill rider to get going again afterwards.

Take breakfast out for her...

In 30 odd years of outdoor mountain type activities I've always be told the ascending person should have right of way .

I'd agree with everyone above, I'm sure I vaguely remember something on my driving test about giving way to lorries travelling uphill, same sort of concept I guess.

If it were surfing ROW is the man on the wave, personally I'm happy to stop on the way up, I'd rather have free flow on the downhill..

Depends BUT uphill has right of way.
If it is easy to stop and restart I always give way to the downhiller as they are having most fun but I do expect to get right of way if i want it.

I've always given way to those heading up hill, so those ascending have RoW.

Courtesy says give way to the one coming up as it'll be more difficult to get going again if they stop, but I will give way to people barrelling down if it's easy for me to do so or it looks like it might be a challenge for them to stop/slow in time.

So as is often the case my answer is 'it depends' rather than a rigid rule.

Uphill RoW +1

I'm going to need a photo before I can decide.

she's nice enough, but there's no coyness, just friendly to an old man on his bike and his peculiar dog...

From Derek's other thread 😉

So, other than just now up there ^ where is it written uphill has RoW?

I'm now forming a cunning plan of head down uphill crash into her gorgeousness, naturally I shall assist her back into the saddle with all deference, hopefully she won't just think silly deaf blind old git...

But where do I point to that says it?

Depends if you're on for a strava PB surely?

Etiquette? It's not golf, wait for the offer, if it doesn't come the you offer.

You're new round these parts, aren't you?
Most STW regulars would know EXACTLY what sort of bike it was, and which tyres.
And then perhaps notice that the rider was an unusual shape . . . 😉

So, other than just now up there ^ where is it written uphill has RoW?

dereknightrider - Member
So, other than just now up there ^ where is it written uphill has RoW?

it's in the IMBA Rules of the Trail..

[b]4. Yield Appropriately:[/b] Do your utmost to let your fellow trail users know you're coming — a friendly greeting or bell ring are good methods. Try to anticipate other trail users as you ride around corners. Bicyclists should yield to other non-motorized trail users, unless the trail is clearly signed for bike-only travel. Bicyclists traveling downhill should yield to ones headed uphill, unless the trail is clearly signed for one-way or downhill-only traffic. In general, strive to make each pass a safe and courteous one.

and general common sense

IMBA 'Rules of the trail' who would ever have thought, so where? No don't worry I'll go google..

Rules don't you just love em..

She's in trouble now then, running over that poor old man, think I should fake something that needs mouth to mouth?

Knowing my luck she'll be running next time we meet and she'll simply vault clean over me..

Its not a rule its etiquette so a question of manners.
Its often relatively easy for the person descending to engineer a safe pass by choosing a rougher line or slowing slightly to allow the pass to occur at a safe place. If this isn't possible I would just wait at a convenient location when descending.

On the otherhand, when ascending and I spot someone descending I look at the terrain and their riding and assess whether they have seen me and will be able to make a safe pass or not and use the excuse for break if necessary.

Luckily, I am not fast up or down hill so having to stop makes very little difference to me so it doesn't bother me either way.

amazing young goddess

What would you do?

Hora to the forum! 🙂

Depends, if she has a SUP or goatboat you need take the moral high ground and run her off the trail.
Of course, should she appreciate submariner speed craft or tension in a luff then she would be a keeper and should be wooed appropriately.

For mountain biking personally I always give way if I'm climbing. I couldn't care less if it's easier for the descender to restart- I'm climbing to get to the descents and I think the majority of people who have a strong opinion on the subject are doing the same so I'll not spoil someone else's fun. Climbing's already pish, stopping for a moment makes it better not worse.

Hmm gentleman-like conduct vs trail manners, I think you're doing it right.
As the mountie says: "Good manners cost nothing"*

*except a Strava PB/KOM.

Northwind - Member
For mountain biking personally I always give way if I'm climbing. I couldn't care less if it's easier for the descender to restart- I'm climbing to get to the descents and I think the majority of people who have a strong opinion on the subject are doing the same so I'll not spoil someone else's fun. Climbing's already pish, stopping for a moment makes it better not worse.

Not as I said that it is any big deal in this case, but it does seem wrong.

but for some reason you can't shoot them then **** them

oh hang on thats a copy and paste from a reply I was going to make to another thread - but it looks funnier here so I'm going to leave it there

where is it written uphill has RoW?

Highway code. Seems irrelevant to a trail but the Highway code has its origins in the early days of motoring and cars weren't as capable or roads as accommodating as they are now - the principle would be the same on a bike or car or a horse & cart - that you wouldn't interrupt the progress of someone traveling up hill.

With MTBs theres the trail centre thing where you're separated from other users and everything is one-way to allows riders to enjoy descents unimpeded and we maybe now take that for granted - but outside those circumstance its the uphillers that get priority

uphillcursing - Member
Depends, if she has a SUP or goatboat you need take the moral high ground and run her off the trail.
Of course, should she appreciate submariner speed craft or tension in a luff then she would be a keeper and should be wooed appropriately.

I don't even want to consider those words in the same sentence as her glory, she wouldn't even know or say them and if she did she would simply smile enigmatically but would be thinking 'tosser' of anyone who even contemplates such deviances.

Her name by the way (I asked her husband who also walks those dogs and admired my bike) is Alice which proves fate has brought her to me for that was 'my mothers name' and when we eventually are formerly introduced I shall take great pleasure in the delivery of that immortal line.

Being serious and not baiting Derek, i agree with the majority on here. The climbs are to be endured for the joy of the decent.

Any excuse to stop and most days you spot hotshots walking their bikes up why would you need to give way to them? Sounds like an old rule...

Giving way to walkers? Whatever next!

I think you should fail to give way next time, and woo her with a robust discussion on how she interrupted your flow.

The rules dictate uphill rider has right of way, common sense and decency dictates that whoever is enjoying themselves the most (the descender) shouldn't have to stop enjoying themselves.

I think you need to take the time to get the camera out when you do your gentlemanly "ladies first" act. We need picture of this goddess, so we can help identify her bike obviously.

I give way to climbers if I can, but many like myself are happy to jump out of the way when ascending, if I see someone coming down, alway happy to have an excuse to get your breath back

If it's a cracking descent and not just some random bit of trail that happens to be going downhill then obv give way to the descender. Have been thwarted many times by small groups of nobbers who insist on riding/pushing alongside one another uphill, like the last one is going get picked off by an axeman or a werewolf or something

i suppose their needs to be some sort of general agreement. i'd suggest most proper mountain bikers have a degree of common sense about this stuff. in my experience, its other trail users that complain no matter what you do.

for me though its simple. if i was climbing up a trail and saw someone coming down, id pull over. simply because id remember the effort getting up and the reward is clattering back down again. as long as you get acknowledged for doing so - im happy.

I'm sure yoda could put it better...

The engine may be knackered but the brakes are still good: thus re-starting on a slope is difficult, so give way to old duffers ascending.

Oh, and give way to females always. Like holding open doors and stepping off kerbs, it gets you noticed, sometimes.

Sorry about that. I'll have a word to my wife and get her let you pass next time. 😉

As per many others up there, for me the person heading uphill has priority, though if I'm climbing and I'm being nice I might well give way, and if I'm descending and offered a clear path I will accept gratefully (and try not to crash)

Highway code rule 155 support this

155
Single-track roads. These are only wide enough for one vehicle. They may have special passing places. If you see a vehicle coming towards you, or the driver behind wants to overtake, pull into a passing place on your left, or wait opposite a passing place on your right. Give way to vehicles coming uphill whenever you can. If necessary, reverse until you reach a passing place to let the other vehicle pass. Slow down when passing pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders.

Same applies when skiing - people further down the hill have priority

Give way to people below and beside you on the hill. It is your responsibility to avoid them.

http://www.snowsafe.org.au/alpine-responsibility-code/

As for "I hate climbing, I'll happily stop" - I struggle with climbs and count it as a personal achievement to get to the top in one go. If I was close to cleaning a climb when some **** came barrelling through and forced me to put a foot down, I wouldn't be very happy about that. not bloody happy at all.

z1ppy - Member
I think you need to take the time to get the camera out when you do your gentlemanly "ladies first" act. We need picture of this goddess, so we can help identify her bike obviously.

I can't help you with the bike I wasn't paying attention to the bike bit, my interest for some reason quickly passed to the saddle as she went by, probably because of all the saddle discussions that have been going on on the old peoples thread.. [url= http://www.sq-lab.com/en/sqlab-products-en/sqlab-bicycle-saddles-en/mtb-en.html#.VNyZ10L-aFY ]Here's a nice saddle site to look at[/url]

So I can just hear it now 'Hello darling how's your run/ride?" 'Fine dear except that old pervy guy on the mountain bike with the weird dog has started taking pictures of me...'

I believe under british law it is forbidden to immediatly give way, rather one should partake in the "after you" social convention. First proceed to make sure that both of you come to a halt in the tighest of spots the,while mirroring the attempts of the other party to move past you to make sure the impass continues while polity repeat "after you" .

this amazing young goddess puts in an appearance

I'm in awe of her magnificence, I've never met such a fit woman on the trail before

Is this really about trail etiquette, or are you using that as an excuse to stop and grab and eyeful when she goes past? 😉

If it was a sweaty bloke, would you be having the same problem?

Not read all the above but from previous threads on this topic it generally comes down to people who've been riding for a long time thinking uphill riders should have priority while newer riders think downhill rules.

kudos100 - Member
Is this really about trail etiquette, or are you using that as an excuse to stop and grab and eyeful when she goes past?

If it was a sweaty bloke, would you be having the same problem?

Well if it was a bloke head down pumping up that track, I'd do just the same, having said that, that time of morning another fella on a bike out early, I'd say hi and if he felt the need to engage, guess I'd stop for a chat ask him where he's headed. Generally there aint many mtb's around so we do tend to acknowledge each other, least I always do. Now approaching a Goddess is somewhat different nobody wants to be turned to stone.

The trail etiquette thing is genuine, I didn't know and thought I'd ask, the Goddess content was just added padding, it is also genuine, other than a mates companion who just crucified me once on an uphill and Rou's Mary (of Imbike fame) don't think I've ever come across wimmen trail riders and certainly not lone riders, of slim statuesque proportion sort of Keira Knightley in her Arthurian role but with a more attractive (to me)face and slightly larger rack.

Or you could just stop and exchange flirts, get her number, then pop round & smash her !.

Just a thought !.. 😆

After all,it sounds like the dogs get on..

But (and maybe I'm missing something here - I don't think so, though) you know she's married, you've chatted to her husband and even asked him his wife's name!

Now I am (according to my wife) an incorrigible flirt, by all accounts I'm good at it (flirting, I mean) but to me this is like meeting an attractive woman at the bar and then going and asking her husband, who's sitting down, what his wife's name is so that you can flirt with her even better.

And I'm always happy to give way if I'm going uphill - gives me a chance to stop for a breather yet still retain some semblance of dignity.

Old Man's fantasy Andy, there was a day when the 'never miss a slice from a cut loaf' expression held sway, but these days... And I'm also married and from where I now live Hawkeye could well spot any dalliance and her retribution would be swift and deadly... So the topic here is to give way or not to give way, not finding out where she lives to nip round and 'smash' her... And the chances of a grey bearded short arsed baldy git getting stuck across she who must be admired from a distance.... = zero.

Now approaching a Goddess is somewhat different nobody wants to be turned to stone.

Not really that different. You are not approaching her in the street and asking her out, just two cyclists having a chat.

If you have been fantasizing about having a bit of trailside fun then I can see how it could be more difficult to say hello.

Next time you see her give her a cheery hello and try not to look at her tits. 😀

Oh and stop giving way both uphill and downhill, soon you will be putting your riding jacket down for her to avoid the puddles 😆

just a thought, but do you have a go-pro, that way we could have evidence of the route, and her !, to help determine, whose got the right of way !!!

I've got a Contour helmet cam somewhere I did think of that after I posted the 'weirdo taking pictures of me' riposte.

So maybe I should helmet up, it's been too bloody cold for a helmet lately, I'm beanie and hoodied, but it's been getting a bit milder, it's on my watersports helmet maybe I'll dig it out see if I can remember how to work it.

Then again what's the end game here? Not thinking of trying to get yourself turned to stone are you? 😉

It's a sin coveting another mans wife. 😆

dereknightrider - Member
Old Man's fantasy Andy

Not as old as me, matey - and yes, when I'm out on the bike (or anytime really) I'll go out of my way to [s]chat up[/s] talk to an attractive woman.
I'm sure they think "stupid old fart..."

Whilst the climbing rider does have the right or way, its absolutely situation dependent as to whether or not as the climbing rider you exercise your right to it.
Same as yielding the right of way on a descent.. if the climbing rider is pushing, I'd like to think common sense would suggest they move aside regardless of their 'right of way'.
There is still hopefully a considerate speed check in there from the rider descending.

Social etiquette certainly expects that you at least offer a quick greeting and smile at said lovely lady without being a leering perv. 😉

I don't think there's a hard & fast rule really - generally I think that ascender has ROW, however with a quick look it's often easy to work out who it's going to be easier to stop.

It's not about "rules" it's a question of etiquette. Uphill rider has priority, same as for motor vehicles.

I don't buy the classic "uphill rider has right of way" crap. This is mountain biking, we don't live for the climbs...we all know how mad fun the downhills can be, and I'll always give way to someone barreling down a hill. Not only is it easier to stop from 4mph than it is from 20mph, it's just polite to allow the descending rider to enjoy their hard-earned descent! So I hope I don't meet some of you lycra clad xc weirdos riding up my downhill tracks. I'll be padded and likely not come off as bad as you! 😉

That is the law anyway isn't it? Lycra must always give way to baggies, SPD's stand aside for Flats, XC's defer to Enduro and beyond in the downhill spectrum.

If it isn't, then its time the law changed, more I think about it, the more it comes up downhill must have RoW just the stopping distance alone dictates the common sense of it.

Destroy them with our BOMBERS!

That is the law anyway isn't it? Lycra must always give way to baggies, SPD's stand aside for Flats, XC's defer to Enduro and beyond in the downhill spectrum.

If it isn't, then its time the law changed, more I think about it, the more it comes up downhill must have RoW just the stopping distance alone dictates the common sense of it.

Pretty sure I read that in a MTB version of the 'rules'

If I'm going uphill, I'll be staring at my stem Froome-style and trying not to throw up, so I won't even see the enduro gods coming the other way.

Seriously though, some of us do enjoy cleaning the climbs as much as going down the other side. Why not try to enjoy something that forms more than two-thirds of a hilly ride?

martinhutch - Member

Seriously though, some of us do enjoy cleaning the climbs as much as going down the other side.

Even if you enjoy climbing, it's less bother to stop when climbing than when descending- all you need to do is stop pedalling. And you're moving slower so it's far easier to spot places to pull in etc. And you've no momentum to lose whereas coming down you're spending all that gravity you banked earlier. Not to mention that the whole passing thing will be over faster that way. It just seems like the considerate thing and the sensible thing to me.

Actually, it's easier to see places to stop when descending and looking down on the terrain. Plus, as many have already mentioned, it's much easier to get going again when descending than it is when climbing. So descenders stopping just seems like the considerate thing and the sensible thing to me.

Whats "get going" got to do with it? "Get stopping" is surely far more valid for mtbs.

scotroutes - Member

Actually, it's easier to see places to stop when descending and looking down on the terrain

If you're going at the same speed, perhaps. But otherwise not.

Getting going isn't all it takes, you need to get back up to speed and that takes a lot more time and effort when you're going down than when you're going up.

So, she probably won't know any of this and being a kindly old gentleman I shall just tell her when I'm coming down on her I have right of way, I'm sure she'll understand and give way..

I'd agree with the ROW to climbing, unless I'm climbing and need a rest, in which case I'll give way 😉

The higher speed you have, the greater responsibility of care to other trail users. That includes riders climbing the same trail. Giving way to ascending traffic is a general way to go but for riding I don't think either descender or climber should force the line if space is limited, if I'm descending I'll be slowing right down so may as well let them through or take a wide line etc. If there's enough time for the climber to see you and they pull aside, all good but we shouldn't rely on it or assume any 'rights'. You may not like climbing, the other rider may do and be trying to clean it. Old school wierdos and singlespeeders..

jameso - Member

You may not like climbing, the other rider may do and be trying to clean it. Old school wierdos and singlespeeders..

OK so assume both parties are enjoying themselves equally (which on balance won't be the case, but just for argument), and just take it out of the picture... It's still easier and less disruptive and quicker for the person going up to yield.

I'd totally agree about not forcing lines, being extra careful when there's not enough space and not assuming the other person will react how you expect, but those are different issues imo and affect both riders equally.

I N R A T S but IMO uphill rider has right of way, unless its a directional trail.

Northwind - Member
... It's still easier and less disruptive and quicker for the person going up to yield.

that may be be the case, but it is harder for them to get going again, which you have left out of your picture

I might have right of way going uphill but I'll always move over for someone coming down.

JoB - Member

that may be be the case, but it is harder for them to get going again, which you have left out of your picture

No, I haven't- it may be harder to "get going" but that's not what the descending rider's doing, he's getting back up to his original speed which is often more effort and more timeconsuming than restarting when climbing, and sometimes not eve possible. Unless you stop somewhere you can't restart but that's generally easy to manage.

Northwind - Member
it may be harder to "get going" but that's not what the descending rider's doing, he's getting back up to his original speed which is often more effort and more timeconsuming than restarting when climbing

really?

I'm definitely in the "ROW to the climber" camp.

If it's a technical climb then there's no way I'm stopping and losing my flow just so some mediocre gravity hound gets a clean run. For a lot of climbs around here, if you stop you'll be walking the rest of the way up. On the other hand if it's a boring climb I'll usually pull over and let them past. So I guess it depends a bit how technical a trail is.

JoB - Member
Northwind - Member
it may be harder to "get going" but that's not what the descending rider's doing, he's getting back up to his original speed which is often more effort and more timeconsuming than restarting when climbing

really?

Yes of course it is, do you ride offroad?

frequently

maybe my 'up to speed' isn't as gnawesome as yours

Another also definitely in the definitely in the "ROW to the climber" camp.

It's still easier and less disruptive and quicker for the person going up to yield.

Don't agree with this. In my experience its far easier for the descender to yield and, when I'm descending and have to yield to a climber, the vast majority of the time its not stopping anyway, its just briefly popping off the favoured line and, depending on the situation, not necessarily scrubbing loads of speed. If I have to stop on a steep climb and then get started again it can be a proper pita.

Yes of course it is, do you ride offroad?

Do you ride uphill?

Prettiest rider has ROW. Try not to run over your tongue or her dog.

cloudnine - Member
Prettiest rider has ROW. Try not to run over your tongue or her dog.

Pretty much the way it is, she wasn't out today, my day seems somehow so much more empty not having yielded to her.. 😉

nuke - Member

In my experience its far easier for the descender to yield

Because the climber has so much more momentum and speed?

Because the climber has so much more momentum and speed?

No because they haven't, thats just it: the little the climber has got is hard fought.

It's far easier for the person going up to pick a suitable point to more over to one side or stop than it is for the person coming down.

The person going up would only have to pull over or stop for a couple of seconds to let the descender past. Hardly an inconvenience.

For the descender to decelerate, pick a spot to stop, stop and wait for the slower climber to pass then accelerate back up to speed is going to take significantly longer.

If the climb stubbornly climbs up the middle the trail thinking he's got 'right of way' sooner or later he's going to cause a horrific accident. There needs to be some element of yielding from both parties.

The descender can't really expect to not have to slow down at all, but to expect them to stop to let the climber past just sounds completely ludicrous.

Don't forget to shout Strava! on your way down