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So I have seen my precious Trans Savoie entry downgraded first to a weeks holiday and now to the most expensive nothing in history.
Fortunately I only paid the deposit but that was still a big fat wedge - intended to pay the remainder last week but had to buy a new car thank god.
Had two holidays with Trail Addiction in the past and had a great time. I feel sorry for guides and the staff who were excellent.
Obviously I dont know the story but I find it very hard to believe the owners do not have enough money to pay everyone back. These holidays are super expensive and they sell out for every week of the Summer.
Smells very fishy to me - I reckon my deposit is sat quite happily in a big fat bank account in the Cayman Islands...along with most of the company's assets.
Other opinions are available
But probably Incorrect
Oh well - at least I have a load of GPX files that cant be stolen 🙂
- I reckon my deposit is sat quite happily in a big fat bank account in the Cayman Islands...
While i understand it's hard not to feel bitter, i don't think I've ever met MTB alpine company owners routinely using £20 notes to light their massive cigars and bathing in vintage Moet et Chandon
ndthornton - MemberObviously I dont know the story but I find it very hard to believe the owners do not have enough money to pay everyone back.
Remember that you're just one creditor, and if the story of the big tax bill is true, they're also a creditor. It's not about how much money they had in the bank on day x but about all the different places it might be committed. Sucks I know but it's not straightforward.
What doubly sucks, is that probably more people will have paid in advance because of the shitty £/euro rate
While i understand it's hard not to feel bitter, i don't think I've ever met MTB alpine company owners routinely using £20 notes to light their massive cigars and bathing in vintage Moet et Chandon
I have - Iv met the owners - that's exactly the impression I got from them. They come to meet the guests on the last day of the weeks holiday. The only time they looked interested was when they were talking about all the money they were making that year from Trans Savoie. I got bored very quickly and toddled off.
That's not bitterness - I'm really not that bothered since I just had a knee op its probably for the best anyway. Its just an observation - they are business people after all.
I used them once and I vaguely remember one of the owners arriving in some kind of Porsche (GT3?) with a bike crammed in the back. It was the MTB guides that were making naff all, especially given how hard they worked. As a customer it was great and we got loads of riding in, but not sure I'd have wanted to work there!
With most of the guiding companies I've holidayed with, the owners are also intimately involved in the operation of the holidays - as hosts, guides, coaches, chefs and everything else. I get the impression that Trail Addiction was a somewhat larger operation than that, but I'd be surprised if anybody gets rich from these set ups.
To add insult to injury we also found out the lifts wouldn't have been open for remainder of the trip and the £1100 airbnb has a 50% + service charge cancellation policy!
Just had the good news that the owner has agreed to move the dates back so we'll be there when the lifts are open for no charge.
Losing £162.50 bothers me less than the thought of having to pedal from Bourg to Les Arcs for nine days!
I've been riding at Les Arcs for the last 5 years or so in the summer and organise my biking cliche ride there.
Last year, TA were not to be seen in the area, advertising at the Vallandry lift bar had gone and I didn't see the normal groups out and about.
I know the reason behind this but that's for someone else to add.
What i would say is that the bike park trails have been improved quite a bit in the last couple of years and some new non park trails have appeared over towards Vernettes. I have about 150km of marked trails on our map that we've worked out over the years.
I heard that the Marie of Seez has banned bikes, that means Double header might be no go this year. It's a shame but there's no global policy for bikes so Mayor's can clamp down e.g Chamonix valley.
What I would advise though is be careful if you are going to trail find yourself without a guide. I've been at the top of Mt Jovet in snow whilst it was 25'c in the valleys. We nearly lost a rider on magic carpet and me n buddie got on the wrong side of the lovely white fluffy sheep hounds that actually try to kill you on la varda ridge.
cardo - Member
Thanks hughjayteens... dont know about you but I was proper looking forward to this too.
I was really looking forward to it - was gutted when it went from race to tour and then double gutted to hear this news! Have managed to switch our booking to White Rooms for the same week so will be riding in the same area at the same time (for less money too assuming we get our deposits back!) so not all bad.
I heard that the Marie of Seez has banned bikes, that means Double header might be no go this year. It's a shame but there's no global policy for bikes so Mayor's can clamp down e.g Chamonix valley.
This happened last year. Didnt really change much for our week, but meant we couldnt ride million switchbacks - one of my faves.
Does anyone have a link or want to share their GPXs? Perhaps sharing them will make it less painful for those who are still going?
I've not been with TA as we've always stayed with WhiteBeam, but when I have enquired it's their way or the highway, no flexibility in guiding only or accommodation only.
Trailforks has quite a few to start with. Hopefully folk might load more on now..... ?
Shame to see em go - actually got engaged when out riding with TA!
rapiddescent - MemberI heard that the Marie of Seez has banned bikes, that means Double header might be no go this year. It's a shame but there's no global policy for bikes so Mayor's can clamp down e.g Chamonix valley.
I've heard from a couple of people that this was a result of trailaddiction running races on the footpaths without permission... Take it with a pinch of salt though.
That is what I suspected as the instigator NW, but didn't want to say as it was just speculation 🙂
There were a few grumbles from locals as we raced passed their gardens.
Locals complain to mayor and local auth, and you get yourself major pain.
Fingers crossed for 2018
There was a meeting in Séez at the end of last season about the ban, and it sounded like there may be some more bike-friendly access arrangements for this year, with a couple of detours around very popular bits of footpath potentially:
http://mbf-france.fr/articlesentinelle/rendez-en-mairie-seez
We did ride Double Header last year and didn't see any signs etc, but heard about it in the paper later.
Not sure I'm totally happy with the change to the lift pass to separate the arcs side to la plange side. It means that a quick premiere league at the end of the day becomes a major hassle of buying an add on lift pass to get across Vanoise express.
The TA business (if run properly) is viable in Peisey and I hope they, or someone else, can continue running holidays there.
Is the lift pass separation new for this year? We bought paradiski season passes last year but we had to go to La Plagne to get them.
Last time we were down there (2015 I think) the standard pass didn't cover the vanoise express, it was a paid extra. I seem to remember there was some botheration about not being able to buy the go-anywhere pass in bourg but not sure.
(tbf I didn't think any of the riding we did over the other side was worth paying extra for, or the transit time across the express, but ymmv...)
such a big amount sounds like an URSSAF tax bill . which are due on staff wages by the employer . probably a disagreement on how their staff were employed and liable to pay tax on it .
Just had an email from ABTOT to say that I'll have my deposit refunded this week. Very efficient service. Hurry up and get your forms sent in if you haven't yet.
Just had an email from ABTOT to say that I'll have my deposit refunded this week. Very efficient service. Hurry up and get your forms sent in if you haven't yet.
did you pay by bank transfer?
I paid by debit card - the forms said there was no money set aside to cover these payments and that I should contact my bank for a refund....which I have done.
Is it also worth trying with ABTOT
did you pay by bank transfer?
I paid by debit card - the forms said there was no money set aside to cover these payments and that I should contact my bank for a refund....which I have done.
Is it also worth trying with ABTOT
Yes I paid by bank transfer. ABTOT covers you if your credit/debit card doesn't. I downloaded the forms, sent it in with printouts of my bank statements showing the date the money left my account, a copy of the email I had from TA confirming receipt, and within 10 days, I got an email back from ABTOT saying I'll have it back this week.
Definitely send in a claim - the ABTOT form has a place to fill in your debit card details for the refund.
Also heard from ABTOT today, should have my deposit back by the end of the month... 🙂
Money refunded today. Very impressed by ABTOT.
Just saw this in the news bit, obviously sad for those affected but wasn't this the company that posted lots of shots of bling bikes on top of Porsches all the time? Obviously not that short of cash.
A taste of what is to come when we slip away from Europe....
What Brexit is going to massively increase tax demands ? Ad a few of is posted a monyh ago this smacks very much of local aithorities closing dien a business they didn't like
Ali liked his cars, he had a black 911 when he came to dest-X but as I understand it was boightt used and he had another full time job. You are not going to be buying fancy sports cars from bike holiday company profits
What's happened to Ash then- is he just a shareholder now, no other connection? Presumably Trans Provence is a completely separate outfit?
This Trail Addiction story is a shining example of how to do protectionism 'the French way'.
You don't enunciate the policy properly (that attracts all sorts of unwelcome questions and pressure). No, you pay lip service to the bid ideal of free trade etc whilst actually making the administrative burden of trading there as a foreign company unbearable.
It's like the Al Capone tax thing, but with much less noble motives.
You've got to admire the French sometimes as they play the game on one hand yet blatantly do the opposite in practice.
This Trail Addiction story is a shining example of how to do protectionism 'the French way'.
No it is a shining example of a French company trying to flout French tax laws by pretending to be British.
Having read the biased story on the STW front page a few comments. I ran a successful business in France for 10 years. We could have had all the problems TrailAddiction had but didn't because we didn't ignore French law, try to bend it or do anything to try and gain unfair competitive advantage.
The tax man. We had a control fiscal, two in fact. They went through the books with a tooth comb (including half an hour debate around a 1e bus ticket with me paying my accountant and legal expert well over 100e for that half hour). Result, nothing to pay because we had done everything to the book.
URSSAF. yup we had a minor issue. I considered fighting it but it would have cost more in legal representation so I was pragmatic and they won 2000e. Had it been more we would have fought and won as they were wrong on a point of law.
Inspection de travail. Minor hassles, no real cost, just hassle.
Looking through the article it's clear that Trail Addiction knew what they should have been doing but cut costs by trying to bend the rules. The rules are not flexible though. French law is very clear about what constitutes "self-employed". If you are someone's sole employer and determine when and where they work then that person is considered an employee and not self employed - and you pay their social security. Social security is expensive so companies cheat and claim people are self employed when they are not. Some companies even claim people who are declared as self-employed in another country are not employees even when they are sent to France to work exclusively for that company.
The headline should read:
TrailAddiction flaunts French employment law with the aim of making higher profits and gets caught red handed.
Unless I'm missing a big piece, the whole "short-term secondment from the British operation" is a pretty obvious scam. And "the company had allocated too little turnover to its French operation"- where else could they realistically apply turnover?
It's a bit weak to cry witch hunt if you're actually a witch.
Hard to know without all the facts, but th STW article reads very much like the above The idea that they had full-time UKguides temporarily working in France is laughable.
The EU tightened the rules on "foreign secondment" in 2010 or 2011, it affected me to the tune of a few 100 euros a month. It was clear that the rules were being abused and moved to stop that abuse. That was done at an EU level, it isn't just a French thing.
So it seems like TA were bending the rules and got away with it until they upset the wrong people at which point their business dealings came under closer scrutiny from the french authorities.
@Northwind @Edukator et al...
You're embarrassingly way off the mark.
I've been biting my tongue this whole thread but I can't be bothered anymore. I worked alongside Ali for the past 3 1/2 years and your accusations are complete BS. There was nothing malicious on his part.
Who gives a toss if he drove a GT3, he had a very good job at Ford for many years so its completely his right to spend his earned money how he wished.
Do you really think he ran trailAddiction and Trans-Savoie without any legal or financial advise (both in the UK and France)? If you believe the answer is yes then you don't you're more foolish than you're trying to make him out to be.
Short term secondment is not illegal in Europe... Thats one of the main purposes of the EU (to allow free, easy movement of labour)
Ali worked his arse off for the past few years to make the companies and races as successful as they were but in doing so they came under more scrutiny and increased pressure. I imagine far more than you ever did in your 10 years Edukator.
Now enough with your couch analysis and assumption.
Well when we went the guides were vocally less than happy with their working conditions and pay.
Well when we went the guides were vocally less than happy with their working conditions and pay.
To be honest, as an MTB guide (wherever that may be) it's not a job you do for the massive salary, or working conditions.
It's more to do with the fact that you get to ride your bike every day, mostly free board & food.
It's a lifestyle choice, not a career.
I guided for 2 years and accepted the pay and conditions... that was very clear when I applied.
But I've had the advantage of working in the outdoor industry my entire career so know when I take a job guiding I'm not just getting paid to play on my bike, but have to think about customers/guests too.
That is one of the biggest issues all seasonal employers have.
timbud - MemberShort term secondment is not illegal in Europe... Thats one of the main purposes of the EU (to allow free, easy movement of labour)
Not illegal, but not intended to be used as a tax dodge either. Where were these guides beind seconded from? Trail Addiction's big UK-based alpine guiding operation that runs in the winter months?
It wasn't a tax dodge!
Don't know the guy or know how hard he worked, but if he was following the rules then they wouldn't have had a case against him.
It wasn't a tax dodge!
But it was an employment law dodge?
It wasn't a tax dodge!
If it wasn't a tax dodge, then why the hefty tax demands?
Genuine question.
Are you aware of the rules in France? They are ludicrously complex and ever changing.
One of the previous fines was for the ceiling height in a staff bedroom. It was in apex of the building so had about 12ft height in the middle and 3 1/2' where the bed heads were... Guess which part the inspector measured?
There was also the case of the bar owner who's regular customers would take their empty glasses upto the bar, when they were finished. He was fined €7k and jailed overnight for undeclared labour.
You can't fight that kind of attitude.
I also worked alongside a French man in Liecester for a few months with Autistic children. He served in the French army for a good few years and is qualified to the hilt but its impossible for him to return and work there without completely re-qualifying from scratch.
timbud - MemberIt wasn't a tax dodge!
Explain it then. The article says that Trail Addiction were claiming their guides were on temporary secondment from their UK operation. What UK operaion? How were those guides employed by TrailAddiction for the other nine months of the year?
Well I managed all the bookings and race entries
timbud - Member
Well I managed all the bookings and race entries
And that was your full-time job for the year?
What about all the other guides?
Interesting that folk look for the "dodgy" explanation when things go bad for companies. Sometimes companies cease trading because of events outside their control, or sometimes, they grow too quickly, or don't have the right people, or don't have enough cash to keep trading and so on and on.
It's very rarely because they set out to scam everyone and run off with armfuls of filthy lucre...
Exactly nickc... thats sadly the British "daily mail" mentality at the moment.
People assume Ali was dodgy because he drove a Porsche and put his Yeti on the top. (Someone on this thread even criticised him for putting it in the back - where the engine is. Really!)
He just made some mistakes and has been massively and unfairly penalised for it... the company should have and could have operated this year and still paid off the fines (over time)
I don't know him, didnt know he had a Porsche, and don't really have any vested interest one way or the other. I'm just going on what I read in the article, which says he claimed all his guides were on secondment from a non-existent UK operation. I's not a case of looking for a dodgy explanation, the explanation is right there in the article.
I don't know him, didnt know he had a Porsche, and don't really have any vested interest one way or the other. I'm just going on what I read in the article, which says he claimed all his guides were on secondment from a non-existent UK operation. I's not a case of looking for a dodgy explanation, the explanation is right there in the article.
Likewise.
I think it has to be admitted that on the surface the "secondment" looks questionable added to a tax demand paints the picture of something not totally above board.
Nothing Daily Mail about that!
I think it has to be admitted that on the surface the "secondment" looks questionable
are you a EU employment law specialist? or is that just a guess though? Unless you've direct insight into the advice given to this company specifically about it's arrangements, it's just idle speculation, isn't it?
The French bureaucracy does seem to be set up to punish small businesses, It really is something that the country needs to deal with, but I don't see that trail addiction has been singled out for a witch hunt, they have had the same rules applied to them as everyone else.
Like I said earlier, we were advised in 2010 that we could not claim to be on secondment from the UK operation any more. The EU regulators made it quite clear that it was for temporary assignments of permanent employees.
nickc - Memberare you a EU employment law specialist? or is that just a guess though? Unless you've direct insight into the advice given to this company specifically about it's arrangements, it's just idle speculation, isn't it?
You don't eed to be an employment law specialist to find it suspeicious that someone could be on temporary secondment to France from a full time job in the UK that doesn't exist.
There was also the case of the bar owner who's regular customers would take their empty glasses upto the bar, when they were finished. He was fined €7k and jailed overnight for undeclared labour.
You can't fight that kind of attitude.
Link or details of bar so I can check or it didn't happen, timbud. These things always make the local press. [url= http://www.larepubliquedespyrenees.fr/2012/12/28/la-traque-aux-fraudeurs-du-travail-finit-devant-les-juges,1111494.php ]A recent one locally.[/url]
My guess would be that the work inspector noted that the same person was taking lots of glasses back to the bar most days and clearly wasn't a client, but fraudsters usually have some ridiculous justification for the judge. We saw the work inspectors several times, each time they dropped by they were given the "registre du personel", the corresponding "contrats du travail" if they asked for them, and the most recent "fiches de paie". They then went around and checked everyone on the premises. We also let them know who was working off the premises and where they could be found, though they didn't follow that up AFAIK.
There's a simple way to employ people in most countries including France. You write them an employment contract and declare them to the local authorities. If you employ people any other way then it has to fit within the guidelines issued by the EU. Any doubt and they must be employed locally. What I bet the boss of TrailAddiction didn't do was walk into URSSAF and the inspection de travail and explain what he intended to do [u]before[/u] he did it. He made his own erroneous interpretation to try and save money so he could pocket more cash and pay less - and got caught.
The real losers in this: the creditors of the bankrupt business, and the employees who didn't benefit from from pension and unemployment contributions to the French system which would have meant that they could have lived through the off season if they had contributed enough through the Summer. They also lost out on compulsory redundancy payments. The secondment system is generally used to under pay on worse conditions which is why the inspection de travail do their jobs and ensure employees are treated fairly.
I did all those things, Employees declared locally, working conditions and salary based on the "convention collective", redundancy payments based on time served. No problme
Anyone asked the TrailAddiction boss how much he paid himself and how much profit he paid himself in dividends before he went bankrupt?
Edukator (and others) my view is this was clearly "revenge" for fighting the guide qualifications issue (and winning) in court.
French National Insurance is something 100% on the wages the guides are paid.
My post on the STW story. The French have a way of protecting their national interest irrespective of EU law.
No surprise at all. Just as I posted on the original thread I share Trail Addiction's theory. I have a French wife and over past 20 years have spent a lot of time there including dealing with local authorities.
Most UK tour operators used to employ all of their seasonal staff through the UK, I don't know if they have been forced to change that arrangement.
You can employ people "through" whatever jurisdiction you like. This does not stop local employment, tax and national insurance rules operating in the place they actually work. Or to put it another way, the fact that the contracts were governed by UK law doesn't affect those things.
You don't eed to be an employment law specialist to find it suspeicious that someone could be on temporary secondment to France from a full time job in the UK that doesn't exist
+1.
Nail on the head IMHO..
Just like "revenge" for Brexit eh, Jamba. It's not revenge it's looking after the interests of employees working for an unscrupulous employer who doesn't respect the laws of the EU or the country he is operating in.
The "Brexit revenge" you talk about is applying the conditions the UK proposed itself in the case a member state wished to leave the union. The UK signed its own propositions and is now claiming that the application of those conditions constitutes revenge.
Look. Bravo for running a business in France for 10 years but just because trailAddiction went into administration does not mean that there was wilful misdemeanour. You've read 1 or 2 threads/articles and are not in possession of all the info/facts, but you're more than happy to throw around accusations of tax dodging and law breaking. How does that work?
I worked for trailAddicition for a good few years and can tell you that isn't the case. I can also tell you that its not my place to tell you how or what I know.... Only that its not really any of your business. I've said as much as I'm able and unfortunately that hasn't satisfied your need for gossip and to rejoice in the failures of other.
There are few people here that have actually met Ali other than just in passing and even fewer that have worked with him. Working with anyone who has a passion is damn hard and if you can't deal with that then its your own loss. I had a great (and often bloody stressful) few years and have lost a job that won't be easily replaced... and wasn't as poorly paid as some here would have you believe.
I remember now why I rarely visit this forum. Enjoy it, I'm off for a ride.
You've read 1 or 2 threads/articles and are not in possession of all the info/facts, but you're more than happy to throw around accusations of tax dodging and law breaking.
You're right. Perhaps you could share more of the facts?
But the evidence does suggest something was amiss other than a vendetta. You're loyalty is admirable but I wonder if it blinds you a little?
Have a good ride.
timbud - MemberShort term secondment is not illegal in Europe... Thats one of the main purposes of the EU (to allow free, easy movement of labour)
Nobody suggested it was. It's just that the guides aren't really on a short term secondment, are they?
I can also tell you that its not my place to tell you how or what I know.... Only that its not really any of your business
I know more than you but I'm not going to say - quality playground argument. You've already declared your interest and bias. NickC is right of course we're all speculating, but we're speculating based on massive fines levied against TA for breaching regulations that have put them out of business, and they seem to be the only guiding company that has been punished to this extent (when all the others have been in the same situation fighting French 'protectionism' for 15 years).
I don't think people have an axe to grind against the owner, and I don't think he's some evil greedy slimebag, but it does look like TA alone have tried to game the system and have come a cropper.
What I've taken from the thread is that the original STW article is [i]very[/i] sympathetic to TA and paints them as a victim, when the truth is probably a little more nuanced than plucky British company versus evil foreign authorities.
You don't eed to be an employment law specialist to find it suspeicious that someone could be on temporary secondment to France from a full time job in the UK that doesn't exist.
If the person (a guide, say) is employed by a UK registered company and paid there for tax purposes and works for what? 3 months (I've no idea how long a biking holiday season is TBH) in another EU country, then no, It wouldn't necessarily set off my internal scam alert buzzer...It might very well be what TA were advised to do for all we know, for HMRC purposes or P&L purposes or just ease of regulation...I dunno, could be anything really.
But I'd be willing to bet it wasn't "I know, let's scam the French Govt out of a 6 figure tax sum, while sticking our heads above the parapet and going through years of arguing with the French judiciary regarding qualifications"
probably...
There were a lot of happy customers and staff on the Trans Savoie last year, I didn't notice anybody being oppressed.
Incidentally here's an advert for one of those short-term secondments
[url= http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/trail-guiding-job-going-at-trailaddiction/ ]http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/trail-guiding-job-going-at-trailaddiction/[/url]
nickc - MemberIf the person (a guide, say) is employed by a UK registered company and paid there for tax purposes and works for what? 3 months (I've no idea how long a biking holiday season is TBH) in another EU country, then no, It wouldn't necessarily set off my internal scam alert buzzer...It might very well be what TA were advised to do for all we know, for HMRC purposes or P&L purposes or just ease of regulation...I dunno, could be anything really.
But I'd be willing to bet it wasn't "I know, let's scam the French Govt out of a 6 figure tax sum, while sticking our heads above the parapet and going through years of arguing with the French judiciary regarding qualifications"
maybe...
I wouldn't be putting money on it, and yes, there might be plausible expanations for it - but secondment means "this person works full time for me in the Uk but I'm bringing him/her to France temproarily for the summer"
Which, if there's full time work for them with TrailAddiction's UK operation, is fine. If there isn't full time work in the Uk fo rthe, then it sound very sketchy.
The article also refers to TA accounting for too much of their income as being from the UK - what(if aything) do they do in the UK to employ all these full time staff and generate income? Timbuk talked about workign on booking, etc - he didn't say whether or not that was a full time job for him, even if it was, I don't think you can employ all your guides in that way. I know folks who have worked for the, and they certainly weren't employed there full time.
Shandy - MemberThere were a lot of happy customers and staff on the Trans Savoie last year, I didn't notice anybody being oppressed.
Don't think anyone's suggesting anything bad about how TA treat their staff or customers. Have only ever heard praise for them and what they do on that front.
you're more than happy to throw around accusations of tax dodging and law breaking. How does that work?
It's all in the STW article, have you read it? You haven't read my post because I've concentrated on the avoidance of social security charges rather than tax evasion. There's also an article in the Telegraph from August 2014, there are the French judicial information sites, and companies house. Have a good read of the bottom of the [url= https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08344026/filing-history ]PDF[/url] for 07/10/2016:
So how much were the guides paid? I've employed a fully qualified French MTB/BMX/route guide for accompanying school groups and our MTB club uses him for "rad" trips. Half a day with some school kids is of the order of 200e (un prix d'ami), good value for money given the level of responsibility.
What is clear is that your boss was in a head to head with the French authorities that jurisprudence suggested he would lose (he has) but made no financial provisions for the payment of the inevitable social security charges that would be levied.
The article also refers to TA accounting for too much of their income as being from the UK -
I would hazard a guess that most of their custom is from the UK riders, ergo so is their business income.
But the accommodation was French, nickc, and given the prices asked the biggest cost/revenue centre was the accomodation provided in France and the guiding provided in France. The money was made by the French part of the operation.
nickc - MemberI would hazard a guess that most of their custom is from the UK riders, ergo so is their business income.
That's not really what that part is about, honourablegeorge is just summarising- if you look back to the article it actually says
"However, a parallel investigation found that the company had allocated too little turnover to its French operation"
So yes most of their guests are from the UK but that's French turnover.
willing to bet most of the costs are in Euros, agreed...But their income was probably largely Sterling, so it's not true to say that France was where the revenue comes from. (as most of their custom was probably UK riders paying in Sterling in the UK from UK banks)
That the operation was [b]in[/b] France is besides the point. (for accounting purposes)
Eidt: If TA was a shop, buying and selling to folk in euros, ordering stock and so on, then yes, cost [i]and[/i] revenue are French. But, TA aren't a shop, I know of only one bike holiday firm that asks for local currency, everyone else you pay in Sterling. That makes a difference (especially if you have a UK bank acct for ease of transaction for your (largely) UK based customers...
There really IS no word for Entrepreneur in French sadly.
LOL!!
I know of only one bike holiday firm that asks for local currency, everyone else you pay in Sterling.
Really! Bike Village, White Room and Bike Verbier are all priced in Euros.
nickc - MemberThat the operation was in France is besides the point. (for accounting purposes)
But maybe not for tax purposes - Logically, I'd agre with you on that, but if from a French point of view the service they're paying for is being provided entirely in France, they may see it differently.
But even if that argumnet is winnable, I don't think the secodment one is.
Whether payment is in pounds or euros is of no relevance in working out where the income arises anyway, it's just whether the customer or operator is taking forex risk.
honourablegeorge, I dunno, you may be right, we're all just second guessing really aren't we?
At the end of the day folk have lost their livelihoods, and folk have lost a holiday, neither an outcome anyone would have wanted.