You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I know the law says 1.5m, but is it really something to get hot about should they pass close enough you can touch the car.
Some folk go off on a road rage rant and personally I think theyre ranting because theyre making a big deal about nothing really.
Cars pass each other very close. Is that a problem ? no, trucks or buses pass cars just as close, and is that a problem ?, also no.
Maybe theyre just too skittish and if a car passes within touching distance, it hasnt hit you, so why the big palava.
Yes yes I know, cars/bikes etc etc get into accidents, but so does everything else.
On a cycle track/joint pavement, cyclists pass close to pedestrians. Do the pedestrians go off on one ?. No they dont, but accidents can and do occur, but theres no minimum passing distance.
Im not saying there shouldn't be a law, nor am i saying cars etc should be unaware when passing cyclists, but im sick of the number of ranty vids i keep seeing on YT etc showing a car that is nowhere near the cyclist, yet the cyclist is shouting the odds and working themselves up into quite a state.
4:30am is very early, I'd suggest trying to get more sleep.
Cars pass each other very close. Is that a problem ? no
Cars hit each other all the time. It usually results in a few dents. The human body doesn't have the same level of protection as a 2 ton vehicle.
On a cycle track/joint pavement, cyclists pass close to pedestrians.
Same laws of physics apply. The outcome of a collision with 70kg rider travelling at maybe 10mph is not going to be anything like that of a 2 ton vehicle travelling at multiples of that speed.
Besides, I'd expect people to slow down and leave as much room as possible. Passing close and at speed is a dick thing to do regardless of vehicle.
Im not saying there shouldn’t be a law, nor am i saying cars etc should be unaware when passing cyclists, but im sick of the number of ranty vids i keep seeing on YT etc showing a car that is nowhere near the cyclist, yet the cyclist is shouting the odds and working themselves up into quite a state.
A disproportionate number of people killed on the roads are cycling at the time. People are genuinely fearful for their lives. I won't comment on what is right or wrong, there's a whole spectrum of content out there, but generally speaking, of all the things to get worked up about, not wanting to be killed seems a fair one and quite understandable.
Less than 1.5m, comes down to speed. 1m passing very slowly is completely different to 1m at 40mph.
Touching distance, that's extremely close and never really acceptable. About 50cm from your elbow, hence being able to touch the car simply by taking a hand off the car. I've thumped a rear window twice in my life, once as a car was trying to exit a single lane but large roundabout across my front wheel and was about to take out my buddy in front (he stopped which was the desired effect but resulted in a shouting match before we managed to ride off, properly off his rocker...I truly think he was going to run over my buddys rear wheel either deliberately, or hadn't seen him as he was fixated on pushing me off the roundabout at his exit) and the second time squeezing me at a traffic island and she swerved out thinking she had hit me, also the desired effect but got the look of daggers afterwards when she realised. Both could have turned nasty as both were deliberate and drivers looking for an altercation I think, so always a last resort.
Road rage and cycle cammers one YouTube...they are not your typical rider, I think most of us would just be a bit peeved and perhaps a head shake, but it's always hard to tell exactly how close as wide angle cameras always make stuff look further away.
PS I made an extra effort to avoid clicking on dashcam and ridercam clips on YouTube and it seems to have stopped suggesting those videos to me, the only time I really see them is when roadcc articles get served on my Google landing page. You could also try blocking the main posters of such clips if it's annoying you, YouTube may also learn from that
People are genuinely fearful for their lives. I won’t comment on what is right or wrong, there’s a whole spectrum of content out there, but generally speaking, of all the things to get worked up about, not wanting to be killed seems a fair one and quite understandable.
This. It's scary.
OP, you stand at the side of the road, in the road, and I'll close pass you in my car. Then you can tell me how comfortable you feel.
The op reads a bit like a copy and paste from somewhere that y'know, isn't a cycling forum, the purpose being to illustrate just how hard of thinking your average non-cycling car driver is and provoke a discussion on how that can be changed, and the copy&paste element is revealed to us later.
Certainly isn't something that a cyclist who's actually ridden a bike on the roads would say.
It's that right?
😳
what spooky said; I get why they created the 1.5m rule but it's only part of the story. The trouble is we have to legislate for all and with half of drivers being below average ability, half the population being below average common sense, and there being at least some venn overlap in the two, simply saying 'Give cyclists enough room eh?' doesn't cater for that.
I don't mind being passed closer than 1.5m in slow moving traffic. In fact, when I'm suffering up a hill at 5-10mph and cars won't come past because they can't leave 1.5m exactly, creating a longer tailback and more likelihood of frustrated bad passes after it flattens out and I get speed up again, it's a stupid rule.
When a big horse box came past me last weekend at about 50-60mph (guess, obvs) about 1.5m away it's also a stupid rule, I fair shit myself and although there's enough distance that they aren't going to hit you the wash really knocks you about.
Sadly I get 1-2 passes per ride that make me feel threatened to some extent. I get maybe half a dozen more that aren't strictly 1.5m but aren't that bad really but if I allow myself to be triggered by them it would make the ride a much less pleasant experience. And I don't have a camera or the time to load them all up onto road warrior sites.
Speaking of which - they are quite a special breed at times. I get why having a camera for the truly bad is worthwhile and often thought about it, but so far can't be arsed. But bikeymike and jeremy vines and co filming and making an issue of every minor transgression; I watch them sometimes because road wars can be quite funny watching middle aged men work themselves up into a lather but I don't think they are really making us any safer, and probably less safe if they're really winding up a few psychopaths.
The fact the someone like the op would post such rubbish on a cycling forum shows just how bad the issues are for cyclists....if it wasn't so utterly depressingly believable it would be unbelievable
When a big horse box came past me last weekend at about 50-60mph (guess, obvs) about 1.5m away it’s also a stupid rule
It's 1.5m at speeds up to 30mph is it not?
Edited
You should
leave at least 1.5 metres when overtaking cyclists at speeds of up to 30mph, and give them more space when overtaking at higher speeds
It’s 1.5m at speeds up to 30mph is it not?
yes. But because it's such a publicised number often without the qualifications that that's the only bit that has sunk in, if anything at all, for the hard of thinking motorist.
Example I just googled - doesn't even qualify it in the article. Just says 1.5m - three times.
This one has helpfully bulleted the changes - but missed that point out
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1555556/Highway-code-changes-rules-driving-law-car-poll
etc.
Sure; the onus is technically on drivers to have read the changes [edit - properly, like in the HWC] but welcome to the real world. Do a straw poll of drivers and many / most when asked about new overtaking rules would get the 1.5m bit, I'd guess less that a quarter, probably less that 10% would mention the speed element.
yes. But because it’s such a publicised number often without the qualifications that that’s the only bit that has sunk in, if anything at all, for the hard of thinking motorist.
Well let's start with clarification for the hard of thinking here.
Let's be clear you were the one complaining about the rule not being applicable to higher speeds, it is. You also complained that in certain circumstances it was impossible or not appropriate, well it's a should rule so that means it's not a black and white must rule so circumstances allow changes...the rule is a good one. That many are below average intelligence and don't understand it is evident here.
OK, I accept - the rule isn't stupid when stated in full and understood in that way.
The way it has been interpreted and accepted that 1.5m is how much you must give without any reference to speed is wrong.
I still think 1.5m is 'too much' in the example I gave about very slow speeds when interpreting it rigidly can create more problems than it solves.
But to repeat, just asking folks to be sensible is never going to work
I still think 1.5m is ‘too much’ in the example I gave about very slow speeds when interpreting it rigidly can create more problems than it solves
Which is why it's a should not a must.
Sorry to labour the point but if "we" don't get it right exactly who the **** will?...which means in essence we agree...but..
Now off out on my bike (which will have a camera on, I find it helps me avoid conflict rather than create it, stops me acting like a ****)
The other day I saw that there was a person killed or seriously injured on the road every 15 minutes.
Would you trust anybody in a large vehicle any where near you?
but im sick of the number of ranty vids i keep seeing on YT etc showing a car that is nowhere near the cyclist, yet the cyclist is shouting the odds and working themselves up into quite a state.
There was a case a while ago - can't remember the details of if it was in court, on video or what where a cyclist had done what you describe. It wasn't the worst pass on history, that was clear but the cyclist defended his actions by saying that it was a "straw that broke the camel's back" experience.
You have a close pass - sigh/mutter
Second close pass - "FFS!"
Beeping horn - "**** OFF!!!"
....
....
Next close pass and you flip out completely.
Yes yes I know, cars/bikes etc etc get into accidents, but so does everything else.
You could go and work for the current Government with that attitude; they seem keen on ripping up all this "elf'n'safety gorn mad!" legislation that was put in place to protect people, minimise accidents etc...
Which is why it’s a should not a must.
Accepted. In the same theoretical straw poll 74.94% of motorists that had claimed to have read the changes couldn't tell the difference between a should and must clause in the HWC.
But we should. Or must.
Distance + speed thing is irrelevant. There are so few cases of prosecution V actual close passes the chances of being caught are minimal.
1 million people ride a bike on a road every month . I can pretty much guarentee each rider will hhave a close pass during that ride. Police probably prosceute single figures of car drivers monthly, a few more will get a door knock or driving standards course . These dont count though really as the bone heads who do it , will still do it.
Made up numbers for fun , but until there becomes a higher chance that almost hitting a cyclist carries the real chance of points + fines it will always happen . Christ , Uniformed police get close passed by moronic drivers when doing a sting operation to catch close pass drivers .
Enough feeding the troll Im off to buy a headcam
I know the law says 1.5m, but is it really something to get hot about should they pass close enough you can touch the car.
The thing to consider is how close the car needs to be to touch it if you're a regular rider who's not out trying to touch cars to test how close they are.
On a cycle track/joint pavement, cyclists pass close to pedestrians. Do the pedestrians go off on one ?
Yes they do. Regularly.
I know the law says 1.5m,
the law says no such thing, the Highway Code does, the Highway Code is not law but may assist a court in determining the actions of a careful road user
but is it really something to get hot about should they pass close enough you can touch the car.
ok, so my arm is probably 1m long from shoulder to fingers, I don’t really see lots of people getting upset about, oh that was only 1.35m.
Some folk go off on a road rage rant and personally I think theyre ranting because theyre making a big deal about nothing really.
Is it unreasonable for people to be upset if they think their safety was in jeopardy, and the person exposing them to that perceived risk ignored well publicised safe overtaking behaviour to do so? Even if the true risk is smaller than the recipient of the threat perceived it to be?
Cars pass each other very close. Is that a problem ? no, trucks or buses pass cars just as close, and is that a problem ?, also no.
cars and larger vehicles are less likely to wobble from the passing turbulence or because of a pothole, manhole cover etc.
Maybe theyre just too skittish and if a car passes within touching distance, it hasnt hit you, so why the big palava.
Presumably you’ve never ridden a bike on a road and had a close pass. Will you sign a waiver permitting me to drive closer and closer to you whilst overtaking until we find your problem distance? (By the way like most drivers I’m not very good! So can’t promise consistency).
the old guidance was that you should leave as much room as when passing a car. In many ways it was more sensible as the space to leave is different at 5, 15, 50 mph but the driving public were clearly unable yo follow that advice and after public consultation the governement changed the Highway Code to make it simpler for drivers to understand. If drivers don’t like that, look at other drivers not cyclist for solutions.
Yes yes I know, cars/bikes etc etc get into accidents, but so does everything else.
Vulnerable road users are more likely to be seriously harmed in a collision. I don’t think it’s acceptable if other vehicles collide whilst overtaking either.
On a cycle track/joint pavement, cyclists pass close to pedestrians. Do the pedestrians go off on one ?.
frequently
No they dont, but accidents can and do occur, but theres no minimum passing distance.
Perhaps pedestrians and cyclists are generally more aware of their surroundings than vehicle drivers in their protective bubble?
Im not saying there shouldn’t be a law, nor am i saying cars etc should be unaware when passing cyclists,
so how does the cyclist know that the overtaking driver is a driving god who can safely pass at 60cm not someone who is in autopilot and must get past without overtaking safely
but im sick of the number of ranty vids i keep seeing on YT etc showing a car that is nowhere near the cyclist, yet the cyclist is shouting the odds and working themselves up into quite a state.
Now I will argue forever about why there should be safe passing distances and why driving zombies are a problem BUT I do often question why someone posts videos. 1. They know it won’t change bad drivers attitudes, 2. Most likely will only entrench “bloody entitled cyclist” views or make people believe they are driving gods. 3. It will get likes and interaction in social media which feeds the dopamine meaning posting videos of bad driving becomes a rewarding experience. 4. You’ll probably end up arguing with idiots on the internet which is even more frustrating than gesticulating at drivers. 5. Very rarely is the cyclist ever interested in constructive advice from other cyclists how to prevent it happening again (like moving road position).
by all means video drivers and upload to the police, but if it’s part of your routine then maybe it’s time to look at the best way to protect yourself. However, if you are the sort of car driver who gets upset about people posting these videos then I’d take a look in the mirror - you are at least part of the problem, but moreover nobody makes you find this content - you find it (it finds you) because you engage with it. Ignore, move on.
The other day I saw that there was a person killed or seriously injured on the road every 15 minutes.
Would you trust anybody in a large vehicle any where near you?
Yes. Constantly. Not dead yet.
Obvious troll is obvious?
Incidentally and from pure anecdotal evidence, the car drivers that I see every day driving too fast in our village centre are by and large the same ones incapable of leaving any room for cyclists and pedestrians.
I'm not sure that it's a misinterpretation or plain ignorance of the highway code, just people being oblivious and unable to adapt to their environment in general because they only ever travel by car.
Im just really meaning that all its really doing is causing conflict between cyclists and motorists. The roads are simply not built, and the traffic in town is just too busy for a cyclist to take up the entire road meaning the overtaking vehicle must cross the white line if and when they can. This makes for long tailbacks which raises peoples hackles.
I used to ride with one of the reclaim the streets mobs, and mob is exactly the right description. Talking to motorists during a ride what I got back was so negative i stopped going on the rides.
And as it is now 1/2 the time i've got to keep an eye on whats behind, and stop every now and then to allow the build up to speed up. A bit like being stuck on a country road behind a caravanner.
So knowing that motorists get really annoyed, theres more chance theyre going to do a fast overtake and probably cut in to tight. Bad for the cyclist. But if they can easily pass, but are within the 1.5m that shouldnt really be such a problem. And theres no need for cheeky 'hand signals'.
I’m not sure that it’s a misinterpretation or plain ignorance of the highway code, just people being oblivious and unable to adapt to their environment in general because they only ever travel by car.
And complete failure to resource the Police and justice system to educate or remove them from the road.
Incidentally and from pure anecdotal evidence, the car drivers that I see every day driving too fast in our village centre are by and large the same ones incapable of leaving any room for cyclists and pedestrians.
I’m not sure that it’s a misinterpretation or plain ignorance of the highway code, just people being oblivious and unable to adapt to their environment in general because they only ever travel by car.
Not a roadie, don't commute by bike so take my view as you see fit. I'm not a saintly driver by any means, I have to drive in Bradford, I wouldn't get anywhere if I were, but I do struggle to see why some people perform actions that significantly increase the likelihood of a squishy body bouncing off, or going under their car.
There's the ideal world, legal & courteous reasons why you would not which I appreciate isn't always the way.
But even if you came at it from a very self-centred position, uncaring position, why would you invite the inconvenience that would occur from it when a little time and space means you about your day without a shitstorm surrounding you.
People are ****ing odd.
People are **** odd.
In a nutshell, this.
You can drive past a cyclist safely in town without giving the legal space, but it's funny how some people can only do it at light speed and scare the shit out of the cyclist as a bonus.
the Police and justice system
The what? The who? 😂 Apart from flashing speeders and rlj's, does that really exist for minor traffic offences these days?
I am the buddy, mentioned by @spooky_b329, and remember that incident well.
I remain eternally grateful for his intervention, as I hate to think how flat I would be, if he hadn't acted.
Apparently, it was my fault, for 'not indicating' - even though I wasn't taking that exit.
As per an above post, the first few times you get close passed, it ranges from raised eyebrows to 'blimey, that was a bit close...' but, after a while, it starts to become "there's a whole lane, empty, over there, why on earth are you trying to stay in the same lane as me..." (or worse)
Something very strange happens to (some) people, when they get behind the wheel of a car.
Something very strange happens to (some) people, when they get behind the wheel of a car.
I wonder if it's a similar phenomenon to the disassociation that (some) people get on social media?
all its really doing is causing conflict between cyclists and motorists
I think that you'll find the cause to be the close passes...
"Why are cyclists always moaning about close passes...?"
"You don't like us moaning, and we don't like being put at risk - now consider which of us has the ability to solve both of those problems...?"
Sure; the onus is technically on drivers to have read the changes [edit – properly, like in the HWC] but welcome to the real world.
Likewise the new rule about giving pedestrians crossing priority at road junctions. I've seen it done a couple of times, I suppose. It's a nervous experience as a driver because I'm convinced some idiot will hit me from behind because they're not expecting me to stop there. And I'd never stride out in front of turning vehicle as a pedestrian, whatever my new rights are.
Unless new stuff is actively enforced, it won't even register with a significant chunk of the motoring population.
You can drive past a cyclist safely in town without giving the legal space
As A_A has pointed out. It's HWC which is an odd beast - it's not law itself, rather a sort of recommendation with legal implications. In the introduction:
Many of the rules in the Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’. In addition, the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence. See an explanation of the abbreviations.
Although failure to comply with the other rules of the Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see The road user and the law) to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’.
and the passing recommendations (rule 163) specifically state 'should' at the top:
Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should........give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders and horse drawn vehicles at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211 to 215). As a guide:
leave at least 1.5 metres when overtaking cyclists at speeds of up to 30mph, and give them more space when overtaking at higher speeds
A-A pulled me up on this earlier and he is right. If we want to fight our corner on this we need to understand and be accurate. If we get overly pissy just because someone passes slowly and safely in traffic at speed <30mph, but <1.5m then we degrade the argument. In the same way someone passing at speed at 1.5m distance is also wrong.
My 2p, of which at least 1p is owed to A_A
The roads are simply not built, and the traffic in town is just too busy for a cyclist to take up the entire road meaning the overtaking vehicle must cross the white line if and when they can. This makes for long tailbacks which raises peoples hackles.
I'm 50-odd years old, have lived in various places in England, used to work as a bus driver... and I've never seen a long tailback caused by cyclists.
There might be 5 minutes when you have to wait behind some bikes before you get to an overtaking spot.
Just chill out.
The roads are simply not built, and the traffic in town is just too busy for a cyclist to take up the entire road meaning the overtaking vehicle must cross the white line if and when they can. .................................
Correct. If the road is narrow there is not enough space for two cars and a bike so the bike in the centre of the lane forces the car not to try to squeeze past. the recommended road positioning and a basic of defensive riding. Cars have to overtake safely and if they do try to squeeze past the bike rider has somewhere to go without hitting road furniture
I believe tho its also incumbent on the cyclist to co operate with overtaking cars, waving them thru and sitting up when there is space.
Funny this should pop up.
A colleague of mine who rides in more than I manage at the minute sidled up and asked what car I drove. The other day, my response was "an old Red Citroen, did you almost get squashed by an artic on Monday?"
Turns I was the car behind the chuffing great lorry that almost squashed him trying to wase and squeeze past on an NSL stretch of A-road...
The following discussion that drew in other colleagues highlighted some of the interesting thoughts and perspectives of people who don't ride bicycles seem to have.
My own observation is that drivers do actually seem to be heeding the instruction to give room, the trouble is a few are not bothering to look for oncoming traffic. I've had several 'secondary near misses' lately where cars passing me have come very close to bouncing off of a Range rover... It always seems the very last idea that occurs to people is using the brakes and waiting a few seconds.
Poor quality bit of trolling,
The what? The who? 😂 Apart from flashing speeders and rlj’s, does that really exist for minor traffic offences these days?
I'm glad my point wasn't wasted
So dyna-ti thinks people shouldn’t spend their time posting stuff on youtube and moaning about cars being so close… I think dyna-ti shouldn’t spend any time on a bike forum and certainly not moaning about videos on youtube that nobody is making him watch. So who should **** off then? Online opinions eh. Just so much bollocks.
I am a regular commuter and only get upset when a wing mirror passes under my elbow. Alot of you-tubers don't help the situation though, but hey ho. I avoid commuting on the road as much as possible these days, following almost being put in a wheelchair for the rest of my life by a driver who just didn't look. I'm left in varying levels of back pain as I had a really bad break (two) in my spine and I'm missing half of my L1 now.
I've slapped a few cars when they got that close, or shouted 'oi' loudly, that sually wakes them up. Passes in touching distance ie 50cm are too close. More than this then I'm OK with it.
You could debate the point, or engage in personal attacks.
Seems you've chosen the latter.
Sad.
Having been clipped and knocked off by wing mirrors twice, and gone over the bonnet of a car as a kid (car pulled out from T-junction across my path), I'll get as shouty as I need to thanks very much. These have not been the only incidents either, however, I also try and avoid the roads as much as possible nowadays especially when commuting, or I go out at 5am to avoid cars etc as much as I can.
Mentioned my commutes in a few recent threads. I've said busy roads, but by some standards they're not too bad. The two I dislike are a NSL (from experience driving, would estimate avg speed 45-55) and a 40. On the NSL there's a few close-ish passes where I'd prefer the cars were more careful, but it's actually rare they're close enough I could have touched them (had I thought of it in the split second they were by my side). Like others have said, some drivers look to be closer to oncoming traffic than me. The 40 is the worse of the two, it's a bit busier and with oncoming traffic cars sometimes pass closer than I'd like. If they've obviously slowed and are clearly being careful it's not a problem. I don't ride in the gutter, but at the same time, don't take up the road, We're all just trying to get to work and get home again. I suspect the regular drivers at my regular time know me as if I go in/out at an irregular time, the driving standard seems worse and more willing to take risks.
and the traffic in town is just too busy for a cyclist to take up the entire road
How exactly does a cyclist do that?
You could debate the point, or engage in personal attacks.
Seems you’ve chosen the latter.
Sad.
Well done on completely missing the point.
FWIW, I feel quite a bit more comfortable with closeish passes on my MTB than on my gravel bike. Probably as there's no need to avoid potholes and broken tarmac, and that the edge of the road often isn't the edge of where's rideable and I could go. Also in general I think arse drivers' level of arseiness is proportional to how much like a road biker you look vs. just a man/woman on a bike.