I can totally understand the no brakes thing, there's nothing you'd need to brake for on an enclosed oval, but why fixed? on the face of it it makes no sense Is it just "because" or is there some reason behind it?
Control of speed.
Safety.
And because.
it all started with fixed bike, so tradition ?
back in down tube shifter days, would you want to reach down at 40 km a hour to change gear.
no thanks
Plenty of times on a track I've wanted to brake!
Plenty of times I've wanted to coast as well, so a shame about the freewheel.
yeah, i get why you wouldn't want gears! but a single speed freewheel how is that dangerous?
Efficiency and even less to go wrong or break.
The amount of power some of them are putting down they'd probably break the pawls in a freewheel.
Plenty of times on a track I’ve wanted to brake!
Then the rider behind wipes you out.
yeah, i get why you wouldn’t want gears! but a single speed freewheel how is that dangerous?
Because then you need brakes?
Eh? why would you "need" brakes if you have a freewheel?
I mean when these guys slow up after a race, they just soft pedal, right? They don't put any effort in. so how s stopping pedalling and letting the bike slow down any different to that?
Efficiency and even less to go wrong or break.
huh, that at least makes sense.
Eh? why would you “need” brakes if you have a freewheel?
I mean when these guys slow up after a race, they just soft pedal, right? They don’t put any effort in. so how s stopping pedalling and letting the bike slow down any different to that?
How would you stop a bike with a freewheel? Especially with the (lack of) rolling resistance from a tubular at 200psi, you'd be still going round for a very long time and then have to crash land into the barrier to finally stop rather than just put a bit of back pressure.
Also, you couldn't track stand. A fairly fundamental skill for track riding!
Controlling how fast people can slow down matters, the women demonstrated the issue in one of the keirin rounds. Having large groups cycling so close together needs everyone effectively riding the same way all the time
ah, cool, thanks, everyday's a school day!
I mean when these guys slow up after a race, they just soft pedal, right? They don’t put any effort in. so how s stopping pedalling and letting the bike slow down any different to that?
You can't control your slowing down speed with a freewheel. If you have a freewheel, you'd need brakes; if you have brakes, it'd be lethal!
Also, you couldn’t track stand
I can track stand just fine with a freehub
I can too, but I do use my brakes. and i don't think I could on a slope without brakes!
I can track stand just fine with a freehub
Without brakes?
1) You couldn't come to a stop in the first place.
2)Every time you corrected your ballance the bikes going to start moving again.
The whole point of a track stand is to come to a stop, preferably as close to the top of the banking as possible, and force your opponent to roll past.
Track standing is easier on a slope, and yeah - I can track stand fine with a freehub.
Without brakes?
Yep.
Okay, I use brakes to stop. But once I'm in a track stand, I rarely touch my brakes.
Yep.
You can enjoy being the lead out man for the winner in a sprint then 😉
Why? Because you're trying to go as fast as possible and then some. How long do you think a set of free-hub pawls would last when treated to a full on Chris Hoy ( in his prime with those humungous thighs and 2500W and 700Nm of torque..) 3 lap sprint from a standing start? The poor free-hub would be reduced to shrapnel in about 5 seconds...
Also it's a right laugh (occasionally terrifyingly so) to ride fixies on velodrome track 🙂
How long do you think a set of free-hub pawls would last when treated to a full on Chris Hoy ( in his prime with those humungous thighs and 2500W and 700Nm of torque..) 3 lap sprint from a standing start?
I reckon they'd be fine. BMX freehubs don't explode on a regular basis.
Plenty of times on a track I’ve wanted to brake!
Then the rider behind wipes you out.
I know next to nothing about track cycling but Indycars, Nascars etc all have brakes when they race on ovals and they often manage to avoid an accident by braking, and without anyone else piling into them
I reckon they’d be fine. BMX freehubs don’t explode on a regular basis.
20" Vs 700c wheel, there's less torque in a BMX (or rather you might be able to apply the same torque, but there's less reacting against it).
And BMX riders aren't track sprinters.
Okay, I use brakes to stop. But once I’m in a track stand, I rarely touch my brakes.
Also, missed this bit. You track stand facing down the track because your COG is above it. You roll upto the top, stop the bike, roll down to put the bike at an angle then turn the bars back up.
If you tried to do it facing up the track (even if you had managed to stop somehow) your opponent would just leave your for dead as they'd have several bike lengths on you (enoug to break the slipstream) before you'd had chance to turn back down the track.
So freehubs -
Probably going to be less reliable
Not going to be available in smaller sizes
You're going to lose a sprint as soon as your opponent trackstands.
You're going to be a liability in bunch events each time you back off and coast.
Then after the event you're unable to stop the bike.
Why do you want to use a freehub on a track event?
know next to nothing about track cycling
Good place to start
but Indycars, Nascars etc all have brakes when they race on ovals and they often manage to avoid an accident by braking, and without anyone else piling into them
That's fine for cars, we are talking about cycles.
It's all about how the speed of the cycle is controlled, free wheel with no brakes and you can't stop, add brakes and you can stop too quickly
A former rather well regarded track ride explained to me that a lot of the reason for fixed gear is the ability to finely control speed. And the lack of brakes is because you don't need them.
crazy-legs
Full MemberYou can’t control your slowing down speed with a freewheel. If you have a freewheel, you’d need brakes; if you have brakes, it’d be lethal!
Time to spice up track cycling with back-pedal rear brakes
And BMX riders aren’t track sprinters
Google 'Chris Hoy's thighs', then Google Kye White for visual confirmation that this is definitely so. BMXers can put some power down, definitely, but the top track sprinters? Totally different league.
Contrary to popular belief, track riding is not all flat out all the time.
A former rather well regarded track ride explained to me that a lot of the reason for fixed gear is the ability to finely control speed. And the lack of brakes is because you don’t need them.
This is very true. I've been riding fixed gear exclusively on the road for several years now and, with a bit of practice, back-pedal braking becomes second nature and the ability on the track to go between sprinting and tempo riding is quite important in disciplines like the elimination races.
The bank isn't consistant on a velodrome and it's much steeper in the bends. Like ALOT steeper. Touch a brake on them, you're coming down, coast in with not enough speed, you're coming down.
Also. Even off the track, fixed gear is much more comfortable than a singlespeed, fixed keeps a positive pressure on the pedals (either you or the pedals depending on effort) it's very very easy to pedal at a high cadence on a fixed gear when you'd be stuck catching up with the freewheel. On a track this is more significant because there's nothing to stop top speed*
*Ish obviously there is plenty to stop you but you will spin out very quickly on even quite a high gear.
And you need to be able to control your speed to get off because trying to get off anywhere but the straight will get hurry.
Yeh I think it’s also about even pressure at all times, which leads to more grip for the tyres- if you freewheeled into the banking or touched your brake you’d come down potentially- whereas with fixed you can ride quite slow but because the pressure is very even you keep grip.
We tried riding freewheel singlespeeds for a giggle once and it didn’t work and the GB sprinters did briefly use them for standing starts to work on gaps in the stroke of their power- but they had a closed track to slowly freewheel round and a coach to catch them when it was time to stop!
Also it’s worth noting that top bmx riders had higher max power scores than top track sprinters- Marcus Bloomfield topped the chart around Beijing time (I think, might have Olympic cycles wrong) over team sprint man 1 Jamie Staff who obviously was also a bmx rider in the past, and a good few watts more than Chris Hoy who was aiming at longer efforts and slightly easier start as man 3 uses the bank a little and gets some draft up to max speed.
There is no technical reason why a freewheel could not be made strong enough.
Not that that has anything to do with why track is fixed gear only
I suspect if freewheels were used at the beginning the whole sport would have developed differently but we are where we are
Yep a freewheel could be used, brakes could be used, even gears could probably be used but that would not be fixed gear track riding would it - simple as that.
If it did you wouldn’t have indoor wooden tracks- it’s almost impossible to get round on a freewheel! Outdoor tarmac and concrete which are bigger and less steep are fine, but indoor wood 250m or less tracks wouldn’t work.
You’ve hit on my very niche knowledge area with this question. I have no further threads to make useful comments on but ask me about track all day!
I'm not sure I'm bought into the grip and banking thing. Afterall mtb and bmx can do similar if not more severe (someone find that photo of the track rider riding vertical advertising hoarding though!)
I do agree that bmx have the biggest numbers. I'm sure it was on one of those BBC olympic programs.
I assume track riders need to control their speed to some extent. Sprint can be faster and slower through a race. I guess the bunch racing events also. Coasting to slow down would change the dynamics.
I'd say it's mostly about tradition and origins though. Look at CX, there's no way that they are the fastest bikes for the terrain but it's the rules.
The reason for fixed on the track is simply to provide the ability to slow down… once brakes are removed then you NEED the ability to both gently retard speed to maintain track position and follow riders in front accurately and also actually a slow down to a stop.
I did once unclip both feet prior to coming to a stop thinking to try putting a foot down like on a normal bike and even at walking pace it’s scary as you suddenly have zero control and just coast on and on and on… high pressure slicks on a wooden track have very little rolling resistance.
I may clarify that the guy who told me about track riding has won 5 Olympic Gold medals and 7 World Champion medals. Although at the time he was only a World, European and British champion.
Having been on the velodrome for the first time in ages yesterday, all I can say to anyone who questions the banking/grip/need for fixed or no brakes, get on an intro day! Seriously it’s a blast.
Calshot, 45 degree banking with 7 strangers… plenty of speed adjustment on the legs/pedals, it would have been carnage if someone could brake or even freewheel.
Small wooden tracks are very different to large outdoor cement/tarmac tracks…
Because it scares off the triathletes 😉
Madeupname I used to race at Calshot in the 80s, been back for a couple of sessions since. Exhilarating & terrifying at the same time, hit the bends at full speed and there's enough g force to make it a strain to keep your head up.
Hope you enjoyed it! Its still a great facility
To be fair, the triathlete of our group was one of the fastest learners.
But it might be everyone else was ‘handicapped’ by testosterone
@40mpg
The plan is to finally get accredited and ride regularly through winter. Not sure I’ll be fast enough to race (even if they do a vets league!).
It a great venue and I’m hoping I can drag the kids down to climb/ski until they are old enough to try the track.
The feeling of being sucked into the bend on the black line is great, but going slow around the top the banking is fun too. But now I need another bike 🤔
I would guess a trials rider would be putting the most torque in the drivetrain - front wheel in the air, rear brake on, de-weight then slam entire body weight down into the pedal before exploding up. Polar opposite to a race. All on freewheel (on cranks or wheel).
I've done a fair bit of track riding, I actually own a track bike although I haven't won any medals. When riding you are always adjusting your speed. You can't exactly keep a constant speed, not would you want to, and nor does the person in front of.you whose wheel you are 50cm or less from. So freewheels would be a total disaster. I'm sure they started with fixed because it was what was available, but when freewheels were invented they'd quickly realise they weren't appropriate for the style of racing they'd developed.
Also, you slow down with heavy legs to apply a bit of reverse pressure. It would take many laps to coast to a stop. And take ages. And you'd have to time your stopping pedalling to come to a stop at the gate where you enter and leave the track from several minutes out!
Calshott? With that cheeky jump in the back straight?
I’m sure they started with fixed because it was what was available, but when freewheels were invented they’d quickly realise they weren’t appropriate for the style of racing they’d developed.
I think that's it, you might say there's a bit of "tradition" to it, but the main thing is that the racing arena and disciplines essentially don't need a freewheel and in many ways the bikes are the about the simplest (and most efficient) version of a bicycle it's possible to construct. You could also therefore argue that there's so little margin in technology that track racing is the purest form of bicycle racing in terms of rider's athletic ability being the deciding factor... Discuss?
Ultimately there's lots of forms of bicycle racing where freewheels and brakes (amongst other technologies) are appropriate, you could always choose one of those... If you want to race on a track, you have to ride fixed.
track racing is the purest form of bicycle racing in terms of rider’s athletic ability being the deciding factor
"Pure" is a loaded term that is probably best avoided in these contexts. All forms of cycling have their attributes, none is purer than the others, and since the opposite of pure is impure which is a negative term, that starts an argument about what's best. Which is clearly daft.
However with respect to being only about the rider - perhaps, but then it is often about tactics, fitness, strategy and execution all together, not just fitness. And gear too. Time trial and pursuit, maybe. But even then it's only short distances. Perhaps long TTs are more about endurace?
Surely it is really the other way round? Why would y ou need anything but a fixed sprocket? No gears needed, no stopping needed or a good idea, no hills for gears.
It is the physical need and to a greater extend human wimpiness of late that chucks in anything else.
I did preface that sentence with;
You could also therefore argue...
Maybe I should have said 'simplest' but I don't think in this context it's that much of a "loaded term" I think it's quite clear what I meant...
You could also therefore argue that there’s so little margin in technology that track racing is the purest form of bicycle racing in terms of rider’s athletic ability being the deciding factor
There is more technology in track racing than road racing in as much as all teams have very similar road bikes to choose from as each supplier makes very similar bikes.
There is a much broader set of options available to a track rider based on budget. The Hope Lotus bike is VERY different to my rather standard/traditional looking track bike that a team with a low budget would use.
The Hope Lotus bike is VERY different to my rather standard/traditional looking track bike that a team with a low budget would use.
thats one bike and thats today ..... and its majorly visulally different to the layman. much as the original 1994 lotus bike that was then banned....
plenty of innovation like that has occured over the years in road bikes - and been either banned or found to be of no benefit - or is just not as in your face.
Either way - the timing of the release of the hope bike was quite telling on its intended purpose.
thats one bike and thats today
Other examples are available (WORX WX-R, Pinarello MAAT) all very different from a 'standard' track bike and each other. Those levels of difference are not seen in road racing or not for long as the other teams quickly use the same the following season which I why I would disagree with the statement "there’s so little margin in technology that track racing is the purest form of bicycle racing ", that is all.
lets be honest - those are just normal bikes which took the obvious route post uci rule relaxation on the width of fork and seat stay "blades"
anyway - not like the hope bikes exclusive 😉 - if you have a spare 25grand youll be ready to fit tires and a drive train.
Hope HB.T pricing
Standard frameset (frame, fork, seatpost and stem): £15,550
Pursuit frameset (frame, fork, seatpost, integrated stem and pursuit handlebars): £17,100
Upright (Omnium) frameset (frame, fork, seatpost, integrated stem and omnium handlebars): £18,200
Sprint frameset (frame, fork, seatpost, integrated stem and sprint handlebars): £19,600
Rear disc wheel: £2,450
Front disc wheel: £2,100
Trispoke wheel: £2,250
I would guess a trials rider would be putting the most torque in the drivetrain – front wheel in the air, rear brake on, de-weight then slam entire body weight down into the pedal before exploding up.
Maybe. I've never seen any power / strain / torque data from a trials rider, it'd be interesting (though they never really do full revolutions so I don't know how accurate the data would be).
However, as someone who rode quite a bit of trials BITD, I can tell you that you don't actually generate that much power through the chain/rear wheel. On a big gap, your forward momentum is gained by accelerating your body up and forwards (see any YouTube video of a rider doing a proper big gap). Of course, whilst you're leaping hard, you're putting some of that jumping force through the front pedal, but you're also pushing off the back pedal too (otherwise your back foot wouldn't contribute to the jumping aspect), as well as working your core / upper body etc. I don't know what proportion of a rider's effort is going through the chain, but I'd guess not all that much.
We did used to break chains and freehubs fairly often, though, so maybe I'm talking nonsense.
I think my point still stands, the main areas for technical innovation that have been explored mostly relate to aero, and that's generally a tightly controlled, expensive game where competitors and their bike suppliers are taking a flier on what the UCI will ban/allow from season to season.
You won't be modulating speed with a freewheel. I ride fixed most of the time. On the road in a bunch it is always smoother than freewheel. Modulation is very subtle.
Stopping without brakes off the Cote d'Azure would be interesting too!
I don’t know what proportion of a rider’s effort is going through the chain, but I’d guess not all that much.
We did used to break chains and freehubs fairly often, though, so maybe I’m talking nonsense.
instantaneous moment is likely high but over all power likely low .
Track riders generate up to 2500watts but they don't go Zero to 2500w instantaneous
Trials riders go zero to max in an instant (or as close as)- a bit like hitting with a hammer (think when your trying to loosen a bolt with an impact driver where application of constant force hasn't worked)
lets be honest – those are just normal bikes which took the obvious route post uci rule relaxation on the width of fork and seat stay “blades”
And road bikes are normal bikes too which is the point. Track cycling is no more pure than most other cycling as equipment choices can vary dependent on budget/availability. It is no more a 'pure' test of fitness/technique than a road race where all the riders are riding very similar bikes with very similar groupsets and wheels where no advantages come from the bike technology between them.
anyway – not like the hope bikes exclusive 😉 – if you have a spare 25grand youll be ready to fit tires and a drive train.
Speaking to them at bespoked, they’ve had a couple of enquiries, both from the Far East, no confirmed sales yet though 😉
mostly relate to aero, and that’s generally a tightly controlled, expensive game
Those HOPE frames will be banned any time soon. Leg spoilers won't be allowed. Probably worth one for future novelty value. I have a Dolan Seta that is a lovely (upright) ride. I'm no sprinter for sure so a low DF4 is a waste of my back muscles!
Those HOPE frames will be banned any time soon. Leg spoilers won’t be allowed. Probably worth one for future novelty value
exactly.
be back to standardised bikes soon enough
Other examples are available (WORX WX-R, Pinarello MAAT) all very different from a ‘standard’ track bike and each other.
There's the pursuit bikes that Team USA use as well which have left-handed drivetrains.
Some calculation about the weight/aerodynamics of the drive system being on the "inside". Doesn't seem to have done them much good but a lot of these things are more mind games than anything. The idea that someone else has something new and therefore "better" can often be worth a fair bit from a psychological point of view.
Calshot is a wicked track, my mate Chester is one of the coaches you might come across. The drop off coming out of the banking is quite a thing to get used to! No way I’d race on it but it was fun to have a go on. Chester stood on the edge of the track run off and I was able to get a photo of my shoulder above his head on the banking!
