[Closed] Touring / bikepacking / winter bike?

I'm eyeing up a Sounder Camino frameset for a weatherproof (mudguards) monster (ish) cross SS build to replace my broken Saracen Hack. That might fit the bill for you.

Or possibly one of the option from Planet X? Bootzipper/Scandal/Whippet? Think they do (or did do) a drop-bar rigid build in one or more of those models.

Pretty much every bike manufacturer has something to fit this description (i.e. a gravel bike).

Mine's an Arkose but there are 100s to choose from.

I had a Vagabond, i know a lot of people love them but I struggled to get on with it. The extra weight of the wheels tyres and frame and lazier geometry compared to a CX bike actually make it more of a handful off road. My opinion is that if you need the bigger tires to ride rougher trails then you probably also need normal handlebars. Muddying the waters between the two leaves you with a jack of all trades and master of none.

FWIW I'm loving my cross bike at the moment and planning a lightweight tour on it. I reckon I could slum it with just a bar bag (thermarest, quilt, tarp) and saddle pack (change of clothes + down jacket).

I bought a mason bokeh frameset and the hunt adventure sport wheels to take care of all these requirements. Full build with grx double. It has been perfect for some 50+mile days and blasts around some mud. Commute 15miles along a fairly ropey cycle track.
All the rack mounts you’d want.

Interesting I'll look at that bokeh sounds good. Do the gravel bikes work well enough fully loaded up front and rear racks or am I missing out on something if I don't get a full touring bike? Don't know much about these bikes only ever had mtb.

The vagabond appealed in one part due to the fact it is steel and can probably take a beating, yes jack of all trades though.

I also looked at tour de fer and lose some capability off road... decisions... Definitely want something that's happy for a couple of weeks touring with a tent as well as shorter trips.

Surly Bridge Club?

Cotic Escapade?

Mine gets used for commuting, touring, gravel, pub etc.

Probably my favourite ever bike.

The new Ritchey Outback would probably suit:

https://bikepacking.com/bikes/2020-ritchey-outback-review/

If that is ttoo pricey then there is always the Trek 520

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Trek/520-Disc-Gravel-Bike-2020/P258

Can't Fault my Tripster ATR for all of that riding

and I have 2 sets of wheels inc guards and a rack

You've described my Van Nicholas Amazon #gradventourer.  It's a light(ish) weight tourer, does as a winter bike to keep the carbon one "nice" and handles all the off-road I choose to throw at it. LEJOG ✓ , Glentress Blue ✓, Bikepack round the Cairngorms ✓

2016 Arkose 3 here that would fit the bill. i think the newer ones will take big tyres on 650B rims.

Genesis CDF? Love mine.

If you're looking to fit a front frack then an Arkose is out, in recent vintages anyway. Carbon fork with no mounts.

I've got a dedicated touring bike (Kona Sutra) amd a gravel bike (Pinnacle Arkose). They are both excellent at what they were designed for but if you swapped their roles then the compromises would be obvious.

Personally I think if you want to tour for several weeks with camping gear, using front and rear racks then a dedicated touring bike is the right tool for the job. A good touring bike will have a sturdy frame that won't flex under load, long chainstays for heel clearance and really low gears, probably a triple.
A gravel bike will be light, nimble, fun and comfy. Nearly as good as a road bike on the road and fun to explore on tracks.
But my Arkose is too noodly for heavy touring, does not have low enough gears* and doesn't have front rack mounts. I would choose it for a two or three day trip but not for anything where I needed to load up.
My Kona Sutra is perfect for a two week or longer tour but feels heavy and lifeless when unladen.

No doubt there are bikes that straddle the two requirements better but I'm glad I've got two different bikes for the two different tasks.

* 2018 Arkose 3 - predates gravel chainsets - maybe it's better now

I’m looking at the Planet X Titanium Tempest. Seems ace value.

In the spirit of recommending what you have, I have just bought a Merlin Malt G1X. For £1k it seems very good vfm and reviews have all been glowing. Thing is, it’s not been delivered yet so I can’t tell you if the reviews are justified!

I found my Vagabond good, but heavy and short chainstays meant front mech fitting plus mudguards and big tyres didn't work. Ended up getting an Awol for touring and building a light weight monstercross for offroad stuff.

good on the road long distance, comfy but would be OK on bridleways too. Rack mounts front and rear for ‘proper’ touring and ability to take decent tyres for winter off road.

2 out of 3 ain't bad? Personally I'd forget the winter off-road bit and use the Solaris for that, 29ers rule for winter off-road. I love my all-road/gravel/etc bike but it's best when road and trail are similar ie dry and fast, tend to stick to the lanes when it's wintery as guards and mud aren't great but the guards are a cert for longer distance winter use. Gravel bikes can be good in winter but as others have said, for F+R panniers most gravel bikes aren't great. They're not designed for that sort of use. But they can be good for long distances on road, I've done some big road days on an Arkose with 25C tyres quite happily. For actual pannier type touring I'd look at Spa Cycles range, a Thorn maybe or a Trek 520.
Or, you get a bike that's slow for long road days but makes a great winter drop bar MTB and more of a world tour expedition bike, like a Thorn or a Fargo.

Do the gravel bikes work well enough fully loaded up front and rear racks or am I missing out on something if I don’t get a full touring bike? Don’t know much about these bikes only ever had mtb.

Not many gravel bikes will take full pannier sets inc heel clearance - usually the rear ends are shorter limiting space for a rear pannier. But a rack pack and front panniers might work if the fork is designed for it. If you want a light nimble unloaded ride don't get a touring bike designed for panniers .. but accept that with gravel bikes much more than 6-7kg in bikepacking gear will start to feel pretty bad and the gearing range might start to feel limited or too high. Gravel bikes are good do-it-alls but when loaded more heavily with all the weight high up they always looks like a bad alternative to a pannier-equipped tourer. If you want to carry more than 10kg panniers and you're liable to add food and a bottle of wine to that each day on a ride then a proper tourer might be better. I guess it depends on how important that loaded ride ability is vs the long road rides. A dedicated load carrying bike is a great thing to have imo, you start to do more trips as it becomes more enjoyable.

PX Mystique, PX Freeranger, Boardman adv 8.9 would be part of my list.

Salsa Fargo?

Basically a rigid drop bar mountain bike that can take proper MTB tyres upto 29 x 2.6

Rack mounts, fork mounts etc

Had mine for about 8 years, its currently on the turbo zwifting, but its done 100 mile road rides just by swapping over the rubber to pretty narrow road tyres no problem.

Easily the most versatile bike I own, great fun in twisty singletrack and handles drops surprisingly well.

Looking at the Genesis Vagabond, its a very similar (strickingly so) bike to the Fargo, just doesn't have the 3 bolt mounts on the fork, I'd go for that.

Woho Wild Card, Bivi Bunker or something with Bombtrack written on it?

I have the Vagabond and I think it is perfect for what you describe. I also have an Arkose and I know the Vagabond would be accompanying me on a 2 or 3 week tour. I winter commute on both (3hrs and 36 mile round trip 50% gravel), the Arkose on 40mm nano's is marginally faster than the Vagabond on 2.1 thumnderburts but the Vagabond is so much more comfortable.

I wish the Vagabond was lighter as it is heavy but I think that part of the comfort is the steel and I wouldn't swap that.

Here is a picture of the Vagabond in fully loaded mode on the way to a working holiday in Brittany 45kgs of luggage plus bike! I certainly wouldn't recommend taking this much touring.

And here in week long bike packing mode

And winter BAM mode

Wot Donald said up there ^^^

I had a Sutra before my Amazon. Lovely bike. Well ahead of its time. Strong!!! A bit lardy for lightweight riding but bombproof. The Amazon is like a lighter weight version of it. I still occasionally hanker after a very lightweight gravel/CX type bike too though, so I wonder how possible it actually is to have one bike that excels in all of these roles.

Surly Karate Monkey?
Takes 29er or 650B.
Rack mounts everywhere.
Rides well when empty.
Goes along ok with schwalbe big apples.
Not really budget priced, but is a good bike.

re Genesis Vagabond

A 27-28lb steel bike for rough-stuff touring is not unreasonable and probably sensible. Think Surly LHT, Dawes Galaxy, etc except with more tyre clearance and standover.

I didn’t (loaded or unloaded) find the Vagabond as heavy (or as dull) as the Longitude that replaced mine - but the medium size for me was (to be picky) a little short for the long-hauls and more technical terrain. As ever, it depends partly on the size chosen and build of the rider. I think in hindsight I’m somewhere between M/L.

IME the stock Vagabond is a great, simple, reliable and capable touring/all-terrain bike for the kind of stuff you are talking about.

ymmv. I was lucky to get a long demo ride and liked it immediately for what it was. ie low-priced (paid £750 for the store demo bike) everyday ATB-type bike. A very comfortable setup and the added superpower capability of carrying a shit-ton of stuff all day long on road and in the rough. Even with discs and Nano 2.1s it rode lighter than my old 531ST tourer (which has cantilever brakes and 30c tyres)

A £1k steel tourer is not going to break any records in other guises than the design brief, but neither does any type of bike. For me a Vagabond was the nearest to perfect compromise I found for a steel doitall with a bias for roughstuff touring. My needs since changed and I use a Longitude for similar stuff with the bias on 1-2 day-long trips or bike-packing on sometimes challenging terrain that requires different and wider bars than drops.

Ideally I’d still have the Vagabond also, but maybe in a L size with a lighter wheelset. Or maybe if I had the budget I’d be tempted at my certain age by something more exotic. Though I do seem to favour tough Deore-equipped steel bikes for no worries hardasnails touring/bikepacking.

Partly because using such bikes (ideally) allow a better budget for actually touring (bags,fares, camping gear etc) , yet mostly because they seem to make the most sense doing the job they are designed for. I’ve looked at Surly and Salsa also, but the prices IMO don’t add up compared to a Vagabond or Longitude.

Someone mentioned rear-mudguard on the Vagabond. Yep. Bluemels were fine IME up to about 35-40c but any bigger tyres and hereforth is the world of bodging. It’s an eccentric bag, as advertised. For touring bike it’s something to be aware of.

I got away with Bluemels and 35c Schwalbe Landcruisers, could have gone to 40c prob - (pic below, during fitting (see ziptie and untrimmed stays)

I preferred the 2.1s most of the time but never got around to tackling mudguards for those (would have required some major sculpting with rotary-tool 😬)

thread may be useful:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/vagabond-alternatives-gravel-roomy-cx/

Also maybe have a look at used Specialized AWOL (closer to a Vagabond than a Fargo) or Sequoia?

Awesome replies all, loads to dig into. Thanks! Lots of thinking to do...

Have to say, based purely on looks those vagabonds do look soooo pretty!

If you want to stay British, then have a look at Fairlight Faran/Secan. Spa cycles wayfarer and Cotic escapade.

What about the Cinelli Hobootleg Geo? https://cinelli.it/en/prodotti/hobootleg-geo-en/

It looks similar to the Vagabond or Bombtrack Beyond but has more tyre clearance. I have never actually seen one.

I can't find much info on it. None of these monstercross bikes are perfect, some lack tyre clearance, others have odd rack mounts and I am suspicious of Alternator dropouts on the Salsas.

My experience of touring bikes with racks are that not all bikes are equal.

Unloaded demo does not show its real characteristics.

As soon as you add racks and panniers and weight, bikes handle very differently.

Lighter bags strapped to a bike makes less difference.

I found surlys made good loaded tourers with panniers. No personal experience of the vagabond.

For example I used a xl kinesis Pro 6, it didn't have good toe clearance on the front panniers and you felt it wobble. It did everything else very well.

+1 on the Vagabond. This day last year a group of us were on the Outer Hebrides for a wee trip

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My experience of touring bikes with racks are that not all bikes are equal.

Unloaded demo does not show its real characteristics.

I’d agree with that. Was a leap of faith as no racks fitted for demo, but a Vagabond handled my big old panniers (stuffed with a weeks groceries) like a champ. Every week for a few years. Also had a Thule pack n pedal rack on the forks. No probs to report.