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I agree, DQ is harsh and incorrect response IMO. Cav went for a gap that closed. The elbow stuff is a by-product, not the cause.
Demare is all over the place too, in terms of his line. Yet he got away with it.
Perhaps there needs to be some sort of "neutral zone" to the sides where sprinting isn't allowed, but at least might have given Cav an escape route. e.g. blue lines painted 1m from the barrier on both sides - allowed to cycle in it, but not race (e.g. no more than 2 pedal strokes etc)
But then you end up with an even narrower sprinters lane.
The problem is that there is no one dominant team - there are 6 or so teams in with a fair crack of a win plus the various GC riders trying to stay up there to "keep out of trouble" - ironically enough then causing congestion, getting in the way and increasing the chance of a pile up.
The sprints seem to have been getting messier for a few years now and the consequences much worse. This is far from the first time Cav has gone down like that - he does seem to be disproportionately involved in incidents.
This is far from the first time Cav has gone down like that - he does seem to be disproportionately involved in incidents.
I thought the same when Anthony Watson used his face to hit Sonny Bill Williamson.
IMO it's the right decision, what everyone forgets is that it wasn't only Cav that went down, and in a big bunch sprint it could have been far, far worse. We are seeing it more in sport now that there has to be a duty of care to your other competitors and Sagan would have known he was likely to put someone into the barriers, by cutting hard right to shut the door.
I think it is good that the UCI are stepping up and not afraid to punish 'big' names. No one wants to see riders hurt on a regular basis, so stamping down on dodgy sprinting is the right ting to do. The key thing now is that they are consistent for the rest of the Tour.
Perhaps there needs to be some sort of "neutral zone" to the sides where sprinting isn't allowed, but at least might have given Cav an escape route. e.g. blue lines painted 1m from the barrier on both sides - allowed to cycle in it, but not race (e.g. no more than 2 pedal strokes etc)But then you end up with an even narrower sprinters lane.
I said similar on the previous page. It would mean sprints need to be finished on super wide highways and might mean an end to finishes right outside the Mayor's office, but is that a price worth paying to keep people safer?
have you seen the line Demare took dragon?
what do you think of that, given the rules on not deviating?
They're clearly trying to modify rider behaviour first.
I think it'd be a big shame if all sprints were on motorway-width roads - it's nice to have a bit of nuance and variety to keep it interesting.
also rubbish, but he's dodged sanction probably because of what went on with sagan / cav.
Not that you are saying it, but 'it's what they all do' or 'Cav's hardly been blameless in the past' are not suitable responses. Does someone need to be killed / paralysed by hitting a barrier at 65kph before it becomes an issue?
think it'd be a big shame if all sprints were on motorway-width roads
it was, but riders follow wheels, and they went left to right in the last 300 metres, you can make the road a mile wide but the sprint will still be bunched
Demare didn't stick anyone in the barriers. Although I do agree they should be trying to reduce excessive line changes.
[quote=reggiegasket ]I agree, DQ is harsh and incorrect response IMO. Cav went for a gap that closed. The elbow stuff is a by-product, not the cause.
Demare is all over the place too, in terms of his line. Yet he got away with it.
I'm undecided on whether DQ is correct reponse - though I'm fairly sure that whatever the jury might say it isn't based upon a single incident, it wasn't just the earlier crash near the finish where Sagan was accused of riding dangerously, and the jury had made a point that they were going to take a hard line on such riding.
Cav didn't "go for" the gap - he was already in that bit of the road when Sagan moved over into him - when he "went for" the gap it was big enough to fit about 5 riders in. Meanwhile it's not just about consequences that Demare didn't get punished - he might have ridden side to side on the road which is what he had to do in order to find the gaps to reach the front (other riders to his left were also moving right), but he didn't even get close to riding into somebody else. Whether that's luck or judgement who knows, but riding into somebody else isn't consequences - if Demare had leaned on somebody then you might have a point, but he didn't, which is why he "got away with it".
I think it was harsh on Sagan, he didn't "swerve" at Cav, all the sprinters were naturally drifting right mainly due to Demar cutting up Bouhani. As they have all drifted right the gap between Sagan and barrier naturally closed and wasn't really wide enough for Cav.
yep it was a deliberate and controlled squeezing of another rider into the barrier, the elbow was the "and stay down".
bbc reporting Sagan has departed the tour, no appeal allowed.
yep it was a deliberate and controlled squeezing of another rider into the barrier, the elbow was the "and stay down".
I don't think so, they are all drifting to the right, to drift is allowed, you can't purposely swerve and "close the door", the move to the right comes from Demare's actions? With regards to the elbow, i think Cav was already on way down and him sticking elbow out was steadying himself and keeping him at arms length and stopping Cav taking Sagan's handlebars down and them both falling, Sagan was aggressive yes but no more than the usual argie-bargie of the sprint and fighting to stay upright?
I don't think so, they are all drifting to the right
^^^ in the sequence above the only rider going right is Sagan
^^^ in the sequence above the only rider going right is Sagan
That's how I see it also.
I don't think so, they are all drifting to the right
When I watched it, it looked like Cav was holding his line and Sagan moved across, squeezing him.
^^^ in the sequence above the only rider going right is Sagan
I think it looks more that way partly because prior to that Cav was leaning heavily on him to try and get a gap, and partly because Demare is going left to get onto Kristoffs wheel.
[quote=scud ]I don't think so, they are all drifting to the right, to drift is allowed, you can't purposely swerve and "close the door", the move to the right comes from Demare's actions?
I suggest you watch again - Demare's move to the right comes whilst he is overtaking Sagan and Cav is on his wheel. If anything Demare is moving back to the left when Sagan puts Cav in the barriers - you can't blame Demare at all for Sagan's decision to try and get on his wheel when Cav was already there.
Sagan was aggressive yes but no more than the usual argie-bargie of the sprint and fighting to stay upright?
The usual argie bargie of the sprint doesn't involve putting people in the barriers and giving them no option but to hit the deck. Of course there are plenty of crashes, but most of them aren't so clearly caused by the irresponsible actions of one rider - and when they are that rider is normally penalised in some way (I'm not saying the DQ is right, but some punishment is certainly required).
[quote=mrblobby ]I think it looks more that way partly because prior to that Cav was leaning heavily on him to try and get a gap
😯 I reckon you also need to watch again - the only reason Cav ever leans on Sagan is to try and stay upright when Sagan hits him, and as mentioned above Cav was on Demare's wheel going through quite a big gap before Sagan moves across hard.
The usual argie bargie of the sprint doesn't involve putting people in the barriers and giving them no option but to hit the deck.
The 'usual argie-bargie' of the sprint needs looking at so that these dangerous crashes don't happen. I know 'it's always been the way' but that doesn't make it right.
The 'usual argie-bargie' of the sprint needs looking at so that these dangerous crashes don't happen. I know 'it's always been the way' but that doesn't make it right.
As I said upthread, ITV were reporting that the race officials had told the riders beforehand that they were looking carefully at it, so it's no great surprise that they chose to make a stand. It feels a bit like when the ref tells a player to get their hands out of the ruck, the player ignores him and acts surprised when the ref awards a penalty.
i must be watching something different to those above, Demare and Bouhani behind are both coming right towards the barrier too just before the incident, Sagan moves right too seeing them, Demare actually comes pretty right across then starts moving back to the left, Sagan moves to Demares right and Cav coming from behind tries to get through the only gap open to him. Sagan was moving right to get around Demar, not to close the door on Cav, Cav was behind him as Sagan starting going right, he doesn't move right just to block Cav.
It looks really aggressive. But if you're Sagan you know how tight that gap down the right is and you know Cav and you are going 45mph and that if Cav hits you and especially your handlebars you're both going down, it's pure survival.
I've just watched it again (and again...) and it's actually less flattering to Sagan on second viewing. I though Cav was on Sagan's wheel but he was actually on Demare's, and when Demare opened it up Sagan tries to jump on his wheel, which Cav had baggsied. I may adjust my assessment on this...
Ok, I 'm just going to come out and say it - just sack off the sprint stages completely. Looked at in totality they are pretty mind numbingly boring save for 3 mins at the end. And even that is not that entertaining. The occasional sacrificial lamb is sent off the front so we can all stare at the logos on his shorts but we all know that 99 times out of 100 the peleton will bring them back before the finish. The stages are flat and boring to make sure all the sprinters make it to the finish line. Save for the testosterone boys playing silly buggers at the end it's just a day of sitting there tapping out some unnecessary miles for the bulk of the riders. If we must have them make them 10km long like a prologue or replace with an evening crit with 5 or 10 seconds bonus on the line every lap to shake up the GC.
Sagan was moving right to get around Demar, not to close the door on Cav, Cav was behind him as Sagan starting going right, he doesn't move right just to block Cav.
None of us know what Sagan was intending to do. The point is that he cut across as Cav was holding his line, leaving him nowhere to go.
Ok, I 'm just going to come out and say it - just sack off the sprint stages completely.
You volunteering to break the news to Cav?
Ok, I 'm just going to come out and say it - just sack off the sprint stages completely.
Oh c'mon, they're perfect "siesta stages" - doze off on the sofa and catch the last 10 minutes or so.
i think the issue for me is, was Sagan swerving and deviating from his line greatly, or just finding his own space and has he deliberately rammed Cav into the barriers or just tried to get himself some space and keep him at arms length to stay upright?
Funny how nearly all the other sprinters have defended his actions when they've seen slo-mo?
I think the sprint stages should be shorter, i don't see the point of 200km plus stages only for the 2 mins of glory at the end. But i think they're needs to be sprint stages, i admire the GC guys dancing up some huge mountains, but i scream a the TV over the sprint finishes
I've just watched it again (and again...) and it's actually less flattering to Sagan on second viewing.
I agree, however its hard to see the persepective, has anyone found a link to the aerial footage as I couldnt. It looks like Sagan didnt have to vver to his right at all in the slow-mos. Very annoying that the guardian covered the start of it with their headline text block
On the cyclingnews feed...
A quick perusal of Twitter suggests that there must literally be thousands of people out there who have participated in bunch sprints at the Tour de France at 70kph, and, what's more, they are all so generous as to offer their opinions in the most constructive and least strident manner possible.
🙂
[quote=scud ]i must be watching something different to those above
Indeed - you're not watching the overhead (from further back than in your clip), which is what you need to see what happens. Copied from further up the thread (I've seen better shots, but this is good enough to see what happens)
Sagan moves to Demares right and Cav coming from behind tries to get through the only gap open to him. Sagan was moving right to get around Demar, not to close the door on Cav, Cav was behind him as Sagan starting going right, he doesn't move right just to block Cav.
Nope - Sagan moves to the right in order to get on Demare's wheel, not in order to go round him - Demare has just steamed past Sagan on the right. Except that Cav is already on Demare's wheel - Sagan basically shoves Cav out of the way to get there. Cav is going through the same gap that Demare just has, a gap which isn't at all tight until Sagan moves hard right (at which point Cav is already almost alongside).
It looks really aggressive. But if you're Sagan you know how tight that gap down the right is and you know Cav and you are going 45mph and that if Cav hits you and especially your handlebars you're both going down, it's pure survival.
It looks really aggressive because it is really aggressive - the gap down the right wasn't at all tight until Sagan made it so after Demare had passed (with Cav on his wheel), and to suggest it's survival from Sagan is ridiculous when he still has plenty of space on his left to move into.
You don't really get any of that from the front shot - watch the overhead.
I agree, however its hard to see the persepective, has anyone found a link to the aerial footage as I couldnt. It looks like Sagan didnt have to vver to his right at all in the slow-mos. Very annoying that the guardian covered the start of it with their headline text block
Chris Boardman stated that his opinion changed having watched the aerial footage over just the footage from the front to thinking it was harsh decision as it shows the sideways movements of the riders much more.
This footage slowed right down is good though:
Sagan moves to the right in order to get on Demare's wheel, not in order to go round him - Demare has just steamed past Sagan on the right. Except that Cav is already on Demare's wheel - Sagan basically shoves Cav out of the way to get there. Cav is going through the same gap that Demare just has, a gap which isn't at all tight until Sagan moves hard right (at which point Cav is already almost alongside).
Yep, I assumed this was all obvious - but perhaps not everybody here had watched the overhead footage?
My feeling is it was a bit of red mist from Sagan, though I'm sure he wasn't planning on taking Cav down.
aracer said:
Cav didn't "go for" the gap - he was already in that bit of the road when Sagan moved over into him - when he "went for" the gap it was big enough to fit about 5 riders in. Meanwhile it's not just about consequences that Demare didn't get punished - he might have ridden side to side on the road which is what he had to do in order to find the gaps to reach the front (other riders to his left were also moving right), but he didn't even get close to riding into somebody else. Whether that's luck or judgement who knows, but riding into somebody else isn't consequences - if Demare had leaned on somebody then you might have a point, but he didn't, which is why he "got away with it".
this is my interpretation too, well put.
i think the issue for me is, was Sagan swerving and deviating from his line greatly, or just finding his own space
TRYING to find his own space, finding it wasn't there, but the culture is such that rather than admit he's been done tactically / for speed he's tried to force his way in rather than back out again.
Like the 'hands off' rugby example but in split seconds rather than seconds; with the prompts and cues being internal rather than external; and with potentially far worse consequences than a penalty / yellow card / 3 points.
But culture has to (-> IMHO <-) change because this happens too often for the good of the sport.
all the stuff about Sagan 'balancing on the bike' is a bit false in my opinion. if anything, his leg is counter-balancing him leaning on Cav and throwing an elbow.
harsh decision maybe, but Sagan deffo in the wrong.
[quote=brakes ]harsh decision maybe, but Sagan deffo in the wrong.
end thread?
oops, sorry...
[quote=scud ]This footage slowed right down is good though:
It would be much better without the clearly anti Cav pro Sagan subtitles which appear to suggest Cav fell off all by himself 🙄 - the overhead is still far more useful to tell how it happened (and as pointed out before several times, Cav was already on Demare's wheel - he didn't need to shove Sagan out of the way as you and the subtitler seem to be suggesting there, he was simply defending from Sagan's aggression).
Whatever happened tis a shame, both of the riders i like to watch best out, Cav is running out of years now to reach the record number of stages.
..........still think Cav was already on his way to the floor before the elbow went out though....(runs off)
Watch Demare from the point where they are on the left-hand side of the road.
Keep your eyes on him and then look at what happens to Bouhanni.
just saying.
Keep your eyes on him and then look at what happens to Bouhanni.
it was sketchy, but Bouhanni was going backwards.
Watch Demare from the point where they are on the left-hand side of the road.
Keep your eyes on him and then look at what happens to Bouhanni.
just saying.
Borderline, I agree, but Demare didn't take out three riders.
[quote=scud ]..........still think Cav was already on his way to the floor before the elbow went out though....(runs off)
Not as controversial a point as you might think - I'm certainly not disagreeing with that. The elbow looks bad, but I don't think it was particularly significant in the crash (whether or not it was deliberate).
[quote=jobless ]Watch Demare from the point where they are on the left-hand side of the road.
Keep your eyes on him and then look at what happens to Bouhanni.
just saying.
Yeah Bouhanni was complaining about that, and he has a point. Though I think he's exaggerating to suggest it cost him the win - Demare was already steaming past. I reckon Demare is lucky the other incident happened, as otherwise the commissaires might have looked closer at that. I still don't think it's quite the equivalent of what Sagan did though.
he was simply defending from Sagan's aggression
I don't even really buy that. He had the wheel and was moving in a straight line following it. Sagan moves over. Cav had three options; fire the parachutes and give way which is never going to happen, he's a sprinter going for a win and besides he doesn't know who's behind him about to rear end him if he does - I might not be a sprinter but one thing I know about being a group moving at speed is that you don't drop anchors. Bail into the barriers. Or hold his line. It's not 'defending aggression', I don't see he had any other option open to him.
Can we not just blame Lance Armstrong and move on?
[quote=theotherjonv ]It's not 'defending aggression', I don't see he had any other option open to him.
Fair enough - I don't disagree with any of that, and maybe just used the wrong words.
I might not be a sprinter but one thing I know about being a group moving at speed is that you don't drop anchors. Bail into the barriers. Or hold his line
Waving at Mr V, it always amazes me when you see the sprinters open up at the end and pull away, but then you'll see a lot of the lead out men pretty much stop pedalling and get overtaken, i'm surprised more accidents don't happen with this speed differential.
Waves back at the thought of me and Scud in a sprint finish. You could time it with a calendar.
Me too - I can only assume they are somehow a bit more predictable, in that the others know they are lead out men and will at some stage move over and be ready for it, plus they usually do hold their (broadly straight) line so the man they're launching can come past along with anyone else on their wheel.
Assuming a slovakian doesn't suddenly..... no, stop it.
Ok, I 'm just going to come out and say it - just sack off the sprint stages completely. Looked at in totality they are pretty mind numbingly boring save for 3 mins at the end. And even that is not that entertaining. The occasional sacrificial lamb is sent off the front so we can all stare at the logos on his shorts but we all know that 99 times out of 100 the peleton will bring them back before the finish. The stages are flat and boring to make sure all the sprinters make it to the finish line. Save for the testosterone boys playing silly buggers at the end it's just a day of sitting there tapping out some unnecessary miles for the bulk of the riders. If we must have them make them 10km long like a prologue or replace with an evening crit with 5 or 10 seconds bonus on the line every lap to shake up the GC.
This. Completely agree
the whole point of the longer sprint stages is to make sure that the riders have 200km in their legs so they're tired even before the sprint. Sprinting at TDF level is beyond most of us anyway - delivering that kind of performance after a 200km day is another level entirely. Putting on a 10 lap crit is not the same thing.
There'd be a few more heroes waiting to have a pop as well, would be chaos...
Crits instead of sprint stages in the Tour? Would be awesome. If they can have time trials then why not?
They have a crit every year on the Champs Elysees.
[quote=slowoldman ]They have a crit every year on the Champs Elysees.
except they don't as there are no bonuses for lap wins, and they do have the (somewhat ceremonial) roll-in from the outskirts to get 50-odd km in the legs first
Sprinters points at the line every lap? It'd liven it up no end.
Super big points if you lap the peloton track stylie.
Putting on a 10 lap crit is not the same thing.
Which is was my point. Hopefully much better.
I'm not sure you can call the Champs Elysees a crit as only the last lap counts.