[Closed] Tour de France stage 4 - Mondorf-les-Bains / Vittel - Finally to France

Normally in a sprint involving Nacer Bouhanni, it's him that causes all the inevitable pile ups.
Surprised to see Sagan behaving that badly (intentionally or not). Looks like Sagan was at least partially involved in the first crash as well.

Waiting for ITV4 highlights at 7.

Look at the slo-mo above:

At 3 seconds, Cav is leaning on Sagan trying to avoid the fans. if you look at the scenes between 3 and 4 seconds, Sagan's elbows (left and right) are the same on the bike. At 4 seconds, they're shoulder to shoulder, but Cav, being smaller, his bars are inside and below Sagan's, he's also underneath Sagan's right arm, he's not been pushed by it at this point...blocked maybe. at late 4 seconds you can see their bars hit/lock with Sagan's forearm is actually touching the top of Cav's bars when it all startes to happen.

It's either Sagan has thrown an elbow and knocked him off, or Sagan's arm was pulled, knocked out of position by the falling/pulling of Cav's bike. Looking at it, I'd say the the hoods of Cav's left STI caught on the underside of Sagan's arm and as Cav started to fall, Sagan lifted his arm as the shifter started to pull at it. Cav is behind Sagan at the point at which the real elbow throwing occurs.

If I HAD been Bouhanni, nobody would be debating; they'd be pretty content he'd done wrong. As it's Sagan people are keener to believe in him.

Without the elbow, Cav would still be in the barriers (IMO), and would we be talking about his error in judgement in going for a rapidly closing gap? He was still well behind PS at first contact, and Sagan was still heading rightwards.

I wonder if Cav's lack of form means he is even more desperate than normal to take any opportunity, perhaps he might have sat up and had a good moan about Sagan's line change on another day.

Does look like Sagan (like Cav), is trying to get on Demare's wheel, and may not have been aware he was coming up so quick.

I'm not sure that it merits a DQ, although I can understand why he got one.

watching in slo mo there's a moment when Cavo's take a clear knock to the jaw fro Sagan's shoulder but it's all probably already going wrong by that point.
Domar also cut up bouhanni quite badly, causing him to have to brake (he said as much on french telly - wasn't happy). he was lucky not to crash too.

Nasty, very nasty end that.

I wonder if Cav's lack of form means he is even more desperate than normal to take any opportunity, perhaps he might have sat up and had a good moan about Sagan's line change on another day.

Indeed.

no break for Cav, though he's going to be bloody sore in the morning 😯

Without the elbow, Cav would still be in the barriers (IMO),

I'm not so sure, it looked like Cav was only on the barriers because Sagan had come so far across.

I'm not sure that it merits a DQ, although I can understand why he got one.

My point of reference for this is was it on a par with Renshaw's head butt from a few years ago and I reckon it is so he's got to go.

no break for Cav, though he's going to be bloody sore in the morning

That's good news, hope he's able to continue in a competitive manner.

i think he didn't spcially do it on purpose. and the elbow was after the damage was done. it just looked from the front like the culprit but was only an after-'thought'.
it's such a competitive agressive situation that they just react without real malice in their intentions.
i'm sure he sensed, whether aware or not, that Cavo was coming up fast and his reaction was just 'No, i'm having that' and just instintually tried to block the space and get demare's wheel.

You'd have thought the highlights show on ITV4 would have opened with the latest news wouldn't you?

[url= http://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/tour-de-france/2017/eurosport-teams-up-with-peter-sagan-for-exclusive-tour-de-france-content-campaign_sto6231991/story.shtml ]oops [/url] #askwho ?

I'm not so sure, it looked like Cav was only on the barriers because Sagan had come so far across.

That's what I meant - it was Sagan's line that caused the crash, not the elbow. Deserved relegation but not DQ in my opinion.

Glad Cav has the chance to continue.

Depends if you think that changing your line suddenly and taking out someone who you really should have noticed is on your inside is a DQ offence... 🙂

Far as have understood Sagan was felt involved in the first crash and also done some iffy stuff in some of the other sprints - hence the DQ. Wasn't based on this incident in isolation.

You'd have thought the highlights show on ITV4 would have opened with the latest news wouldn't you?

No, but given that bugger all else happened on the stage I'd expect a pretty thorough examination and series of interviews. Just hope they hurry up with it!

Bets on Sagan being back in the race on appeal tomorrow?

no chance

Pretty low - what would be the reasoning?

ITV in favour of Sagan or at least think its harsh. I think the elbow might not have been the deciding factor for Cav but it was for Sagan. Makes it look like he wanted Cav to crash.

Surprised at Boardman's analysis....to me, the elbow was deliberate..probably not intending to cause Cavendish to crash, but certainly to block him

tdf needed to trump giro poopgate.

I think sagan put cav into the barrier by moving across his line, looks like a small elbow/bit of leaning then cav goes down. Big elbow from sagan seems to be after cav is going down and maybe for balance.

Imo it was sagans fault, but not sure he actually meant to put cav into the barrier.

Dq may be harsh but if they're taking other factors into account, fair enough.

I'm pretty sure there was no intent - but it does look rather like Sagan made a bad call & that's why he's out.

To me it looks like the 'elbow' was a rebalancing move. As others have said, Cav was already down at that point and the pair had tangled bars immediately beforehand. My understanding is that the very aggressive line choice was the reason for disqualification which I don't really know enough about to have a solid opinion on. Interestingly, Cav seemed unconcerned about the line and was more upset about the supposed elbow.

I would be interested to see the first crash that Sagan was also supposed to be responsible for.
at least Froome and G seemed to get through the mess without too much trouble.

I think it's a shame for the tour, and a massive shame for Sagan (even if he maybe does deserve it).

Oh, and I'm glad ITV didn't lead with the drama - I've been avoiding all the TdF news all day in wait for the highlights reel.

I'm sure Sagan will appeal, and most seem to think it's not clear cut and harsh. I'm quite surprised the commissars ruled so quickly on it.

I'm sure Sagan will appeal

Commisssires decision is final, there is no right of appeal.

A moments thoughtless defensive move I'm sure, but look at the consequences. If all sprinters did this they'd be none off 'em left by Paris. So yes, he should be sent home.

Cycling news said the sprinters had all been warned there would be no tolerance of dangerous riding this year and every final would be examined.

I don't know if it has been said before, but the one things that stand out for me is that Cav is absolute nails. He was clearly in a lot of pain and yet still delivered a couple of good interviews. Didn't used to think much of him a few years ago but he's one rider who's really changed my opinion.

Always thought Cav was the real deal. When he was younger he came across a bit knobby at times, but he's grown out of that. Unflinchingly honest and always (and it seems genuinely) grateful for his team's work.

He was clearly in a lot of pain and yet still delivered a couple of good interviews.

Given his mild manner, I took it that he was possibly on some quite strong painkillers...

Dangerous move by Sagan, but he looked genuinely apologetic afterwards. The initial penalty was fair, I thought. DQ seems a bit extreme.

And it means that 2 of the most exciting riders are possibly out of the race 😥

Surprised so many are determined to make something of the elbow, I've never contested a sprint in my life but I know I make a lot of odd shapes when I'm off balance!

Griepel's wheel kicked out, Sagan (not sure if because of Griepels wheel or not) veered right, shut Cavendish out, Cavendish forced to lean into Sagan, this puts Sagan off balance who has to lean back in, elbow comes out for balance, bikes hit the floor.

Seemed one of the sketchiest last 2km I've seen in a while, even without the two crashes there was all sorts of veering around and cutting up going on!

ITV suggesting Demare was guilty of an equally bad maneuver immediately after (cutting across Bouhani) so the commissaires needs to be careful not to be seen to be penalising consequences rather than actions.

The slow mo angle from the front does actually look like Cav caught Sagan's arm with his bars as he was going down, or at least Sagan was trying to keep out of the way. Really not convinced Sagan had any control over the elbow.

In fact the more I watch it, from the overhead angle, I agree with Boardman. Sagan completely loses Demare's wheel. He's not blocking Cav - he's trying to stay on his bike. Demare's move actually looks more aggressive.

Ooof! That's a brutal crash.

I'm not convinced the elbow was the deciding factor for Cav, I thought he was on his way anyway. Being a Sagan fanboi I'm inclined to say it was accidental, but the evidence is there and the DQ is quite telling.

A shame for the race! Hope Cav can still race!

Any truth to the rumour that Sagan also caused the earlier crash? Any footage?

Jamie can produce some for you if we can't find any

some gopro footage 1.35 in though its hard to tell what caused it ! 😯 😀

The slow mo angle from the front does actually look like Cav caught Sagan's arm with his bars as he was going down, or at least Sagan was trying to keep out of the way. Really not convinced Sagan had any control over the elbow.

Yes cav leans in but without that cav just goes down quicker ,because of sagan, as he is ridden into the barrier by sagan this time who was veering to his right.

It is sagans fault

I am not sure it merits a disqualification

Any truth to the rumour that Sagan also caused the earlier crash? Any footage?

Overhead cam of first crash here http://www.steephill.tv/tour-de-france/ - this is the direct link:

There is a rider ~14th wheel who could be Sagan (white top, black shorts, ?silver helmet) who gets squeezed and is right in the middle of the crash and somehow manages to ride it out. I can't really tell though.

Cavendish is out, news just breaking now

It looked to me Sagan's elbow caught on Cavs bar,didn't look intentional imo. Shame to Sagan go as he adds excitement to the sprints.

Cav's out of the tour 🙁

There is a rider ~14th wheel who could be Sagan (white top, black shorts, ?silver helmet) who gets squeezed and is right in the middle of the crash and somehow manages to ride it out. I can't really tell though.

Next to Demare (spl?)? Looks like the rainbow there. Again, hard to tell how the crash happened, though.

its really not the elbow its is everything that precedes it

Cav has the wheel it passes sagan and sagan moves over, removing any space for cav who is going faster, and rides him into the barrier

How exaclty the collision caused them to go down is neither here nor there as the collision is all the fault of sagan changing line and riding him into the barrier.

Whatever the reason, actions or rights and wrongs, the tour is a poorer race for not having Sagan or Cav in it. A sorry state of affairs.

Agree with the poster above, though, Cav is nails (as, it seems, are most pro cyclists)

Poor Cav. He's had some pretty poor luck in the last few years. A few years ago you'd have struggled to sympathise with him - he was arrogant and not especially likeable, but he comes across really well these days and I really feel for him!

So two of the most interesting characters out on day 4. Such a shame - Not least for my virtual team 😛

the tour is a poorer race for not having Sagan or Cav in it. A sorry state of affairs.

Can't disagree with that. The only positive is it despite looking competitive in the last couple of days maybe it was a bit early for Cav to be pushing himself so hard. Hope he has a speedy recovery and comes back next year to knock off another handful of wins.

So who's for the green jersey now?

Whatever the reason, actions or rights and wrongs, the tour is a poorer race for not having Sagan or Cav in it. A sorry state of affairs.

Neither were in Giro and that was a cracking race.

sagan to blame but dq harsh, gutted for cav.

two huge characters which the tour could do with replacing pdq. More airtime for G?

I'd love to see G have a crack at keeping the yellow jersey, but he'd have to do it him self as the rest of sky will be working for froome.

Will he surrender it tomorrow?

Wonder if Thomas would be the designated last man similar to the role that Froome played for Wiggins. If he can stay within a handful of seconds then he could snatch it on the penultimate days time trial.

I know this is wishful thinking but I would really like to see Thomas win.

Anyone else spot Andy Schleck waving them off on the start line?

I immediately had the following, thoroughly unedifying (and NSFW) thought:

In my viewing - Sagan's elbow was after Cav was going down. So, it seems the DQ was for not holding his line. But watching the video - Démare was all over the place - from the far right side of the road in front of Cav in fact to the middle by the time he crosses the line. In fact Démare cut directly across Sagan's and Bouhanni's lines.

I'm a big Sagan fan and yes there are some intracacies to the crash we won't ever know (without knowing Sagans thoughts we will never know his true intent) but I'm glad to see they are coming down hard on stuff like this. The speeds they are going at, plus the amount of people in the sprints now, means that really serious crashes could only become more commonplace. As in F1 they need to keep things safe and need to ensure they do their best to avoid someone being killed on the finish straight, which could happen so easily. It should be a test of a sprinters ability and strength and tactical ability, not about how well they can bully themselves to the front.

Does this link to the on board work for you guys?
http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/video/983217731916/TDF-2017-Stage-4-on-board
Main Peleton crash leading into the finish

Looking at the Cav/Sagan crash not sure either way, sprinting getting to be the most dangerous part of the tour, perhaps they need to clamp down a little and rules were apparently laid out early so they all need to be more careful.

Cav, very diplomatic in the interview, good for him.
"It's always going to get taken out of context what I say" - Cav

Both going home now

Same video Klunk embedded up there ^^ ...

Sagan did cause it, not intentionally, DQ overly harsh IMO.

DQ is too harsh, given last place on the stage sure + a fine and maybe a points deduction but not thrown out of the Tour 🙁 As others have said Sagan was at fault, he swung sideways to get back on Demare's wheel with no regard for anyone that might be following (can in this case). I don't think he saw Cav there as he did it but he should have known someone would be on Demare's wheel.
The elbow thing was more just resulting from the collision, especially when his elbow seems to flick out further as Cav is going down, that's because Sagan's arm is pushed forward slightly not (which it initially looks like) because Sagan decides to put the nail in the coffin and shunt him further into the barriers.

As for stopping this sort of stuff, it's tricky if not impossible to do. Bunch sprinting is always going to be a contact sport of sorts and sprinters are always going to be on the edge of control in the last 100m. That's partly what makes it so exciting to watch. But elbowing people off wheels, deliberately moving across to chop someone and interrupt their sprint needs to be clamped down on (this didn't happen in the Sagan/Cav thing) but trying to prove intent is always going to be a challenge. I also think lead out riders peeling off in the last 200m and just sitting up/slowing right down has to be looked at, that's often what triggers a lot of the wild movements at the end these days.

I thought Sagan caused it but the elbow wasn't deliberate / as it looked. Relegation and points seemed fair, DQ harsh but i don't know what the commissaires had warned either him or them all before the race started, and sometimes you have to bare your teeth to make an example.

sprinting getting to be the most dangerous part of the tour, perhaps they need to clamp down a little and rules were apparently laid out early so they all need to be more careful.

I've never been in a sprint finish so i don't know at all what it's like but it looks terrifying. And on that point, yes, they're all going for the win but they are all also professionals with a duty of care to another pro - whether deliberate or not it's ****ed up another pro's livelihood for the next 6 weeks and could have been far worse (yeah yeah, whatiffery). Hate to introduce football or rugby to this, but we've seen in both those sports law changes to take into account that sport can be rough and accidents happen but there is a duty of care to a fellow professional that outweighs even the desire to win.

Sagan saw Demare's wheel without seeing Cav and in a split second went for it, but then once he realised he was cutting Cav's line off into the barriers he had the option to lose the wheel and go back left again. The overheads show he had plenty of space. I know others will say 'pah, that's not how it happens' but is that what has to happen and if you can't react to those situations then you deserve the penalty. Otherwise these things will continue to happen and we'll be denied the privilege of watching the best sprinters contest fair sprints.

Alternatively, all sprints to be contested on super wide highways with a sprinter's line 150cm in from the barriers each side - cut that and you get relegated automatically. Still wouldn't stop the middle of the road pile up but it was hitting the barrier and that foam pad that brought Cav to such a halt that really made my arse knit buttons yesterday.

Greipel thinks Sagan caused the earlier crash and the overhead looks suspicious!

Sprinters change "lane" often but are not punished so you have to assume Sagan is either a) being punished for the consequences of what happened or b) because of previous misdemeanors.

DQ fair enough in my opinion.

I am not a pro sprinter, but

F1 ca design barriers that can be hit considerably harder than cyclists hit TdF barriers (yes I'd spotted cyclists aren't in a safety cell). Catch nets in skiing do fairly well too. Is steel really the best choice of material? Do barriers that have sticking out bits (albeit foam) seem sensible? You can't change the properties of tarmac much but barriers faced in continuous smooth climbing crash mat type material (preferably with a slippy finish on that) can't be beyond the pockets of the Tour - no?

Have a rule about the lines to be taken. Lead out in the left half of the road and all slowing riders to either hold line or pull left. Sprinters to pass members of there own team on the right (either side when they are passing another sprinter). That way the sprinters should at least have some idea where the movement will be and will go. And yes I understand the commissaries will have to make a call on who is contesting a sprint and who is leading out - but the riders will know.

Thoughts? Practical?

"Sagan is either a) being punished for the consequences of what happened or b) because of previous misdemeanors."

or C) for wear goggles at the end of Mondays stage.

Its a fine line between controlled aggression and being a dick. most sprinters cross it at some point. Looks like PS crossed it twice yesterday, and put a lot of riders on the deck.
They have DQ'd others for less.

Have we heard if he was responsible for the 2 FDJ riders going down and whether part of the punishment was for that ? Or was it just for the Cav incident ?

Have we heard if he was responsible for the 2 FDJ riders going down and whether part of the punishment was for that ? Or was it just for the Cav incident ?

“The jury decided to disqualify Peter Sagan because of the very serious manoeuvre in the sprint. I didn’t know anything about the first crash [at 1.5km out], it’s only about this crash,” UCI Jury president Philippe Marien said.

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/the-uci-race-jury-explains-decision-to-disqualify-peter-sagan-from-the-tour-de-france-339632

Very difficult one.

At first it felt a bit lenient, then a bit harsh.

Glad I didn't have to make the decision.

Boardman said he was judged on the consequences rather than the intent, but I suspect it may have been vice versa, with that elbow being the nail in his coffin.

with that elbow being the nail in his coffin.

I'm disappointed for both of them and me as a spectator. I do think something other than the new 3 second rule is needed though. Sprinting is always going to involve a lot of pushing and shoving, it's in the nature of the game. But 60kph hard up against the barriers will sometimes end in tears and will ruin someone's season - which is stupid. It's in the Teams' interest to keep their men safe so they can continue to race so I think they should be lobbying the UCI hard to come up with something practical.

The elbow which seems to come out after Cav is on the way down?

Yes, that's exactly my point about intent vs consequences.

Well it certainly lit up a boring sprint stage, but don't forget Cav in 2013 doing something similar to Weelans then getting all stroppy with the media for asking the very same questions.. and Renshaws repeated head butting.. and.. and.. it's the nature of sprinting and despite the UCI's attempts at sanitation and "no deviation" rules which don't work, sprinting is sprinting and it's dangerous and that's why some like it. I'm not a fan of sprinting, I think they're dull and should be limited to open airfields in remote locations in rural France, with a 2k wide runway and no barriers, a 1k sprint from standstill to a finish line... and not in Towns or Villages where too much road furniture, roundabouts, barriers with stick out feet, trees or a gap of less than a car width. They often destroy other riders Tour or stages, and crashes are devastating for any team and more importantly any rider.

Thinking about it, it seems pretty fair, he caused a crash that ended another competitors tour, so his tour ends to.

Commissars really should reconsider. Seems pretty much everyone (commentators and riders, even Greipel now he's looked at the footage) thinks the decision to DQ from the race and not just the stage is far too harsh.

Two ways to improve safety. Reduce the probability of a crash, or reduce the impact of the crash.

They need to look at both.

The thing is, hitting the floor at 60+kmph is always going to hurt, and will sometimes result in something broken or badly torn. Not a great deal you can do about that short of slowing them all down or forcing them to wear airbags.

Perhaps there needs to be some sort of "neutral zone" to the sides where sprinting isn't allowed, but at least might have given Cav an escape route. e.g. blue lines painted 1m from the barrier on both sides - allowed to cycle in it, but not race (e.g. no more than 2 pedal strokes etc)

Missed the stage yesterday, but caught some highlights this morning after seeing the news of Sagan DQ.
Seems a bit harsh to me, DQ'd from stage and -1000 green jersey points would have been adequate.

Thought DQ was a bit harsh. Sagan is a classy rider, and I'm sure it was an unintentional reflex as he grabbed wheel. His apology to cav will have been genuine.

Sprinting is a contact sport and I've seen as bad in many Cat 4 races. It's one reason why I'm always in that second wave! Width of the road and barriers are irrelevant. Sprinters have tunnel vision when the line is coming.

Watched it a number of times now and i've only done track sprinting, it is a physical sport and there is contact.

I think it was harsh on Sagan, he didn't "swerve" at Cav, all the sprinters were naturally drifting right mainly due to Demar cutting up Bouhani. As they have all drifted right the gap between Sagan and barrier naturally closed and wasn't really wide enough for Cav.

I think whilst it was aggressive, i think Sagan was protecting his handlebars, someone comes up the inside of you and is going to take both of you out, then you are doping everything to stay upright, making yourself wider than your bars means that your bars aren't being clipped at 45mph which is what would happen.

I think Demar and Sagan should of got the same original penanlty, only Demar actually deviated quickly from his line.

Pity as it was a class bit of sprinting by Cav, his own lead out train went too early with 1km to go and Cav knew he couldn't sustain that longer lead out, so he actually let his own lead out train disappear ahead and used Demar as a lead out instead.

doping everything to stay upright

Freudian 😉

Commissars really should reconsider

It's a bit late now..................

Pity as it was a class bit of sprinting by Cav, his own lead out train went too early with 1km to go and Cav knew he couldn't sustain that longer lead out, so he actually let his own lead out train disappear ahead and used Demar as a lead out instead.

Agree - I think sat on Demare's wheel he was as close to nailed on for the win as you can be in a sprint.

It's interesting to watch the replay and focus on Demare. He weaves all over from the middle to far (rider's) right and all the way back left as he crosses the line. He doesn't look over his shoulder as he does so.

With that in mind, it does seem like perhaps they are punishing consequences, whilst Demare does the same sort of manoeuvre and is awarded the stage win.

Boardman said he was judged on the consequences rather than the intent, but I suspect it may have been vice versa, with that elbow being the nail in his coffin.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In football, if I mistime a well-intentioned tackle and break my opponent's leg, I'm going to be punished. ITV were reporting that the sprinters had told to clean up their act, so I suppose the DQ isn't too surprising in that context. While the elbow probably wasn't as bad as it looked, Sagan did veer across while Cav was holding his line.

Commissars really should reconsider
It's a bit late now..................

I know, it won't happen but I'm still half expecting to see Sagan re-instated.

Some opinion...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cooke-for-sagan-to-be-kicked-out-in-disgrace-is-not-on/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-riders-past-and-present-shocked-by-peter-sagans-disqualification/

he was judged on the consequences rather than the intent,

I suspect he was also partly judged on who he is. If the commissars had seemed lenient they could have been accused of acting in the interests of ASO and UCI, I'd not be surprised if this was in their minds when the decision was made.

This is a good sequence of images...

[img] [/img]

.. by the time the elbow went out Cav was on his way down. Can't say with certainty that the elbow didn't get pushed out by Cav leaning on Sagan. Stupid decision to DQ from race.