[Closed] Tour de France stage 22 - The aftermath

Loved these threads all the way through, interesting to hear other forumites views and punts.

Thanks hugely Lunge, top job.

Plenty of thoughts, I'll be back shorty.

Heros: Barguil, Dan Martin,
Villains: The jury for DQ'ing Sagan
Highs: Froome cracking on the airport slopes
Lows: The crashes and abandonments affecting the race. In particular Kittel having to abandon while wearin green and Geraint Thomas not finishing after not finishing the Giro either.
General thoughts: Too many flat stages, not enough summit finishes for my liking. Froome may well smash the vuelta too.

edit. and just to add my thinks to Lugne for doing the threads..

Massive thanks for the threads lunge, I haven't commented as I don't really have much to add but enjoy reading them every day.

And as for everything else, ferrals puts it perfectly to be honest.

Best bits - A resurgent French, Dan Martin and Simon Yates
Finally some decent attacks on mountains and people having a go

Worst bits - the injury list - Cav's is sounding fairly nasty

Sky dominance is a little dull as most of the other teams are not putting a single focus team together.

I'd echo the not enough summit finishes, descending to a flat sprint just isn't great racing for me

Again, thanks to Lunge for these threads and to everyone who's contributed to them. I've not done so myself as generally don't know what I'm talking about but I've enjoyed the speculation of others.

Heros: Barguil, Kwiatkowski (for some epic efforts in the mountains)

Villans: The number of DNFs either through disqualification or injury. IMO the points jersey competition was poorer for it. Matthews may have caught Kittel, Sagan may not have romped home with it and Cav may have been in better form that his pre-tour fitness suggested but we'll never know. Not really a fan of Matthews but it's a shame for him that people will be able to say he only got green because if the above. I know this is all part an parcel of a 3 week race but having it goes to Paris would have been far more exciting

Wondering what inrng will have to say in his "how the race was won" feature. Despite the atypical route it was a pretty typical way to win a Tour. Make time in the ITT and defend in the mountains. Just that the lead was slender due to the short TT (he didn't even need the second longer TT) and the need to defend less due to lack of summit finishes.

A few race winning moments stand out, though none a decisive attack. The time gap in the first ITT set it up. Being on the right side of the split into Rodez and getting yellow back. The save up the hill after the broken wheel. And generally staying upright and out of trouble.

Regarding Bardet. Read a quote from him saying he didn't spend much time training on his TT bike as it's a bit boring. I hope he gets his head around it and gets some miles in before next year!

The parcours wasn't right but it was good that the ASO is trying to mix it up a bit to avoid it just being Froome, Quintana and Bardet exchanging blows on big mountains. There's a bit of damned if you do, damned if you don't but overall I think they will have learned a valuable lesson for what hasn't been planned for 2018 (the first few stages are already defined).

Few of my thoughts:
[list][*]Bardet needs to learn to TT on a course that doesn't reward his excellent bike handling over TT ability (i.e. stage 1 this time) unless he wants to become the new Andy Schleck[/*]
[*]Contador needs to know this was his swan song at the Tour and not drag it out another year[/*]
[*]Mountains and sprint classifications should definitely be more based on the finale not sprinting out of breaks to hoover up points. The mountains classification was well deserved and before Kittel left the points classification was looking to be exciting up to the end.[/*]
[*]The Giro-Tour double is buried for a generation I think. Unless they go to the Giro as a potential winner and a super-domestique at the Tour, nobody will ruin their TdF for a top-10 at the Giro.[/*]
[*]The Vuelta looks like it could be a Froome win as it seems a lot of people won't be going, Aru is utterly useless when it comes to tactics (Astana have no depth in their team anyway), Bardet and Uran have either never been or never had any success and who knows with Nibali[/*]
[*]The transfer announcements starting in a week are going to be interesting. A lot of names moving and the Quintana leaving Movistar rumours won't die down despite being in contract for 2018[/*]
[*]Tony Martin is doing something wrong in training since he went to Katusha. His season has been a mess and he was nowhere for the TdF. Big money move failing? Those Alpecin adverts so embarrassing he doesn't want to be seen in public?[/*]
[*]Dan Martin has ridden a blinder but I don't see him going much closer towards the podium without a GC supporting team. The Yates brothers also don't seem to have much support at the sharp end of a stage, but it'll be interesting to see them both at the Vuelta especially if Chaves is there too; that's a pretty formidable trio in mountains[/*]
[*]Where was Steve Cummings? I saw him at the back a lot but it seemed that the Tour was perhaps a bit too much so soon after his injury this year despite being on good form for one-day races[/*]
[/list]

I've enjoyed watching it, well I've enjoyed it being on in the background whilst I've done other stuff, for me it's been good, but instantly forgettable.
Is Froome a definite for the Vuelta?

Criticising Froome for the manner of the win is like criticising Alistair Cook for not hitting enough sixes. He knows his strengths and he plays to them and he's phenomenally successful as a result. And to stretch the analogy, Cook probably can hit sixes but he doesn't need to. Froome showed he has gas in the tank when chasing back up after his mechanical, and maybe he could have attacked his rivals but again, why would he risk that when he can win by scoring singles with the occasional four. (OK, enough of the mixed metaphors)

On the 'not enough mountaintop finishes' I suspect frankly that's logistics; the tour is so big now and there aren't enough mountain tops with the right setup to get a caravan, thousands of fans, all the teams, etc. up it if there isn't then a way back down it afterwards. I suspect if you wanted to stage finish on the top of appropriately structured mountains then the overall number of climbs would have to reduce cos you can't then use them in the middle of a stage.

Froome may well smash the vuelta too.

He seems to have peaked/been peaking in week three, the oppo is sparse - I reckon the timing is excellent to get a runner up on SPOTY...

Many thanks lunge for these threads - great stuff.

theotherjonv - Member
Criticising Froome for the manner of the win is like criticising Alistair Cook for not hitting enough sixes. He knows his strengths and he plays to them and he's phenomenally successful as a result.

I think for me part of it was bad luck on the weather splitting the field so much on Stage 1 which set the race up as Sky defend rather than get out there. There are plenty of mountains with decent logistics up there so it did seem like they tried to mix it up a bit. Leaving the ITT (or even TTT) till later on it would mix that part up a bit more.

It does also open up the debate as to the difference between respecting yellow and hiding behind it.

Each stage should have a racing story.

Mountain stages and TTs always do one way or another, but flat stages need to either be critical to the green jersey narrrative or bumpy enough to suit a rouler or breakaway or have enough chance of crosswinds to keep everyone on their toes.

Sky (in fact all the GC) got to treat stage 19 as a rest day and while that was good for the break it wasn't a tense compelling breakaway win.

Each stage needs to be a potential GC or green jersey losing stage.

Loved it (and these threads) as always.

I do wonder it a second team got organised like Sky whether that might actually make the spectacle worse.

So in the end Bardet held his place by a second. He's very lucky the 20 second penalty wasn't applied for the illegal feed.

Apart from that, I think I want the power meters to be banned from racing. I have a small doubt in that I don't want to block progress but I think this would open things up more than most of the other ideas. I want to keep the radios as to me that adds more than it takes away.

Highlights for me are the French countryside (as ever), AG2R, Bardet, Contador, the Sky team professionalism and Lunge.

Apart from that thanks for all the expert opinion on here. It makes it a million times better for me being someone who's watched for almost 30 years but never had a better insight than what is discussed here each day.

Contador needs to know this was his swan song at the Tour and not drag it out another year

I'd be happy to see him back. Doesn't seem to be a GC contender anymore but would be good to see him lose time early on and go for stage wins.

The Giro-Tour double is buried for a generation I think. Unless they go to the Giro as a potential winner and a super-domestique at the Tour, nobody will ruin their TdF for a top-10 at the Giro.

Is an interesting one that. Contador's attempt, I don't think he would have been at the level to win the Tour even if he hadn't done the Giro, much like this year. Not sure what happened to Nairo really, undercooked for the Giro and overcooked for the Tour, or just got it all wrong this year? Froome's probably the only one who could have a serious crack at it right now, maybe when he starts thinking about his legacy he might give it a go, but then he might be a bit past his prime.

Tony Martin is doing something wrong in training since he went to Katusha.

Said much the same last year and he went on to win the Worlds ITT (though this years course probably not one for him!)

Where was Steve Cummings? I saw him at the back a lot

He's always at the back if he's not off the front. He gave it a go when there was opportunity but it really wasn't a Tour for breakaway guys like Steve. Few stages to give it a go, and some of the mid-mountain ones were probably too mountainous.

Heroes...
Dan Martin - for fighting so hard despite that awful crash
Uran - for taking the win while stuck in that huge gear, and for keeping cool and riding his own race throughout
Bodnar - got his reward after that valliant defeat
Eddie BH - same

Villains...
Inconsistent judging decisions

Highlights...
Awesome scenery this year
I liked the lack of summit finishes
Bardet & Barguil's wins were cool

Lowlights...
Losing too much top talent to injury/DQs

Conclusions...
Next year's Tour is gonna be a real corker if the other teams can get their shit together with their GC efforts (and if the parcours isn't too hilly for Tommy D)

Is Froome a definite for the Vuelta?

He said yesterday he wants to win it, so looks very likely.

Contador needs to know this was his swan song at the Tour and not drag it out another year

I wouldn't presume to tell him to pack it in, but it'd be good to see Trek throwing a more credible candidate for GC into the mix.

The flat/flatter stages should have more intermediate sprints to encourage attacks and try and get away from "There's a break, they'll get the intermediate points but be swept up with 5Km to go and the big boys will get the major points crossing the line". IIRC there used to be two or three intermediate sprints on these stages some years ago.

Apart from that, I think I want the power meters to be banned from racing.

I don't know what difference those calling for a banning of power meters think it would make. Do they really think that pro's can't judge their output to within a few watts anyway.

Like it

How about on the super flat stages 50 points on the line but 5 equally spaced 10 point sprints? Keep the interest up

How about on the super flat stages 50 points on the line but 5 equally spaced 10 point sprints? Keep the interest up

I quite enjoyed it and would probably end up echoing comments above if I did a full heroes and villains thing.

However, lows:
That crappy CGI swimming and running thing in the Grand Palais. Just awful

He said yesterday he wants to win it, so looks very likely.

That crappy CGI swimming and running thing in the Grand Palais. Just awful

All I can think is that it was supposed to be a Tricolor (red, white & blue). Very odd though.

I don't know what difference those calling for a banning of power meters think it would make. Do they really think that pro's can't judge their output to within a few watts anyway.

+1

No point in banning PMs or radios IMO. I'd rather see the parcours tinkered with to create a more interesting race, and I think this year's could have been amazing if there had been a stronger GC field/fewer injuries.

Sky dominance is a little dull

People like to grizzle about Sky, have just heard somebody moaning on radio 4 asking where the drama is etc but that is not down to Sky getting worse or somehow dropping the ball but other teams and riders stepping up to match them. They are not far off, they just need to find those marginal gains 🙄

It's been a memorable tour. Favourite moment has to be EBH getting a stage win and Dan Martins grit.

So, heroes:
Dan Martin for lighting things up in the hills
Michael Kwiatkowski for services to yellow
Chris Froome for a consomethinge and professional tour
Thomas De Gendht for attacking at every given moment
Team Sunweb for brilliant work with both Matthews and Barguil
Uran, for sneaking up on everyone.

Villains:
Cannondale Drapak for bringing a GC contender and not managing to have either Rolland or Talansky support him
Bardet/his management for not practising his TTing, a GC rider needs to do it all, you can't ignore such a key skillset.
The small and vocal group of fans that booed Sky and Froome.

Re. the route, I admire the organisers for trying something different. They're on a bit of a hiding to nothing when you have 3 riders within a minute going in to the last stage and people still moan. I think whatever you do, Froome/Sky will train for it, it's up to the other teams to train better and knock him off.

I don't know what difference those calling for a banning of power meters think it would make. Do they really think that pro's can't judge their output to within a few watts anyway.

Well Chris Boardman thinks it would make a difference and he's been using them for decades. His take was that it should be like on the track, where riders can run a power meter, but can't have visible real time data displayed.

I guess it depends how tough the route is then...I think there's better riders than Froome when it gets really steep.

There are a few steep summit finishes... but there's also a 42k ITT. Difficult to see anyone capable of getting enough time on Froome on those summit finishes not to lose it all and more on the ITT.

Well Chris Boardman thinks it would make a difference and he's been using them for decades.

Well he would know better than me! It would be marginal but maybe at that level it might make a difference.

Apart from that, I think I want the power meters to be banned from racing. I have a small doubt in that I don't want to block progress but I think this would open things up more than most of the other ideas.

Another +1 for there being no point in banning power meters. They train with them (you can't ban training aids like that practically), they know their bodies. It'd add a percent either way I'd imagine and in reality almost all of them would be hindered not knowing the power output at various points. I don't believe that Quintana or Voeckler don't know when they can give it more or when they've gone too deep despite not relying on power meters to race.

Well Chris Boardman thinks it would make a difference and he's been using them for decades. His take was that it should be like on the track

Boardman occasionally has an opinion that isn't what other people agree with or is just wrong. He said before the Tour that Froome was under prepared and it wouldn't end well for him at the Tour. Obviously he couched it in all sorts of careful phrasing but he wasn't right then.

They've done some good things with the [i]parcours[/i] but the overall shift needs to be to move the sprint stages to the middle of it all. Start off with some mountainous (or at least lumpy) stages, THEN bring in the flat sprint stages. At the moment a whole bunch of super-fresh sprinters are going for wins early doors and the event was far poorer for Sagan and Cav and, later on, Kittel not being there.

Tire everyone out a bit first!

Warren Barguil was ace the way he won the Polka-Dot Jersey.
Lunge's threads have been superb.
The ITV4 commentary team are brilliant.

Dan Martin could have been well up there if it wasn't for that crash with Richie Porte. In fact Porte himself would have been great to see up there in the GC and BMC giving Sky a bit of competition.

I'm not sure how the more points for more sprints on flat stages would work out. Aside from the logistics of having to have 5 or 6 photofinish camera setups, if too many points are on offer too often, then breakaways would never be allowed to form.

It'd be all shut down by the sprinters teams so the points never get hoovered up and while having lots of properly contested sprints would be exciting, there's also the potential to lose lots of riders from the crashes that often follow particularly if the GC teams have to be up the front so if there is a crash they're not right at the back and behind a potentially damaging split. You can't have the 3km rule at every sprint point.

I like breakaways - and I know most are destined to fail and are only really there for sponsor's exposure anyway, but I also like the attempts to bluff and counterbluff about how fast a break can really go at the end; the sport would be the worse without the potential for a Fabian powerup or a Jens 200km solo, etc.

In fact Porte himself would have been great to see up there in the GC and BMC giving Sky a bit of competition.

I expected to see more of Roche once Porte was gone. It may have been too late for a top 10 but he was never near the sharp end despite being in that role for Sky a lot of the time.

Apart from that, I think I want the power meters to be banned from racing. I have a small doubt in that I don't want to block progress but I think this would open things up more than most of the other ideas.

Another +1 for there being no point in banning power meters. They train with them (you can't ban training aids like that practically), they know their bodies. It'd add a percent either way I'd imagine and in reality almost all of them would be hindered not knowing the power output at various points. I don't believe that Quintana or Voeckler don't know when they can give it more or when they've gone too deep despite not relying on power meters to race.

I don't think they'll all get it right all the time. There'll be an element of doubt or optimism in certain riders that will start off attacks that are a little bit less predictable and will need to be defended. Of course, some will cope well but if Bardet had stuck with PM data on Saturday his podium place would have been more comfortable.

A question, given that Landa finished 90 seconds down on Uran, if Froome wasn't there, would he have won? Would he have put 90 seconds into the other GC riders in the hills?

And I guess by extension, would he have won even with Froome there? Would he have put 2+ minutes into Froome over the course of the race?

Landa worked for Froome if he was leading he would have given it a shot, but all would depend on the team.
The question was being asked by BMC as the only real team doing just GC and supporting the leader fully

I expected to see more of Roche

He's been more a domestique for approaches rather than the high mountains. He did look to have bulked up a bit whenever I saw him too. He was in some of the breaks on some of the stages, was having a go. The mid mountain stages probably just that bit too hard, much as Cummings said.

And I guess by extension, would he have won even with Froome there? Would he have put 2+ minutes into Froome over the course of the race?

Impossible to say really. He did get dropped on occasion when some of the attacks went, but then came back when it slowed down. But then he'd been setting the pace prior to that so going with an attack wasn't the expectation. I don't think we got to see how strong Landa would have been on the attack. And we only very briefly got to see how strong Froome was under pressure.

I think the Grand Tours should have an extra 1 or 2 weeks between them, give the riders a greater chance to recover, the Grand Tours would be even better if we see the best GC riders having a re-match over two or all three making the tours more of a series of races and not just solely train for and compete in Tour de France, giving the other two more of a standing.

I loved Barguil's dominance in the mountains, he is 26, so has 3-4 seasons at top hopefully and him and Bardet can go to "how to TT" camp together.

Want to see Dan Martin be given a good crack at it with proper team support, he kept battling despite the crashes, injuries and bad luck and needs to be rewarded for that.

I would really like them to get rid of the Paris final stage or at least re-think it, getting a bit stale watching the same crit race that is actually a parade, i think it should be a proper stage, with proper racing that finishes in Paris but doesn't do the circuit race, or takes in more of the city so the racing is there til the end, imagine the Bardet/ Landa fight yesterday if they hadn't sat up for the view and it was a proper race day for all?

And...

I want to see all the top teams that have a budget of more than £20 million be forced to have a women's team, ASO will keep putting on lame ladies events until the money men put them under pressure more. Team Sky stated years ago they wanted a women's team and haven't.

Imagine if we could watch all three Grand Tours with ladies racing 2 hours ahead of the gents? It would take some time to build up to money/ organisation/strength wise, but why can't they race the final 7 stages or race the 3 weeks over 50% or 70% of the distances the men ride in the same way the ladies play same number of matches, but less sets at Wimbledon.

I think La Course whilst a 5% step in right direction, looked a right mess mostly and pitiful that they riders were Tweeting they had to get changed in the car park as there were no facilities for them

Tweeting they had to get changed in the car park as there were no facilities for them

Pretty sure the men get changed in the team bus or the hotel. There was no hotel where they were, what happened to team buses?

I would really like them to get rid of the Paris final stage or at least re-think it, getting a bit stale watching the same crit race that is actually a parade, i think it should be a proper stage, with proper racing that finishes in Paris but doesn't do the circuit race, or takes in more of the city so the racing is there til the end, imagine the Bardet/ Landa fight yesterday if they hadn't sat up for the view and it was a proper race day for all?

Imagine if we could watch all three Grand Tours with ladies racing 2 hours ahead of the gents?

It's probably deserving a thread of it's own (ironically), but I'd rather see better coverage of the existing women's stage races.

Surely there's a bigger audience for the Giro Rosa than some of the crap Eurosport show?

Look at their schedule FFS...
http://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/calendar-result.shtml

lunge - Member
The only way you could make Paris interesting is to make it a TT. Paris isn't mountainous so any stage that finishes there will be a flat stage, controlled by the sprint teams and finishing as it does anyway. You could remove the processional protocol but you'll gain very little from it in terms of the result.

I want to see all the top teams that have a budget of more than £20 million be forced to have a women's team

I remember Sir Dave B's specious crap about 'when the time is right' not long after Sky started, but given how badly BC seem to handle womens' cycling you can't imagine Sky being better voluntarily. Contrast them with the likes of Orica, or Sunweb. I've always liked the Skil Shimano/Giant/Sunweb outfit but their long term contract with Dumoulin suggests mutual respect and trust between rider and team (which then encourages investment by the sponsors), and they've just signed a similar deal with Coryn Rivera until 2021.

General thoughts it was an okay race but not great. Final week despite the hype fell a bit flat and was almost a forgone conclusion.

Some further thoughts not necessarily covered by others above:
3 weeks is a long time I can barely remember the first week.
Porte failing wasn't a surprise, but BMC being a bit rubbish was.
Loosing Fulsang had a big impact on Astana's ability to take the fight to Sky.
Nice to see the judges not be overawed by a big name, dangerous riding is that no matter who does it.
The drinking penalties that were and then weren't was a bit silly.
I don't mind flat stages, but overall it needed a few more lumpy stages to give breaks a chance.
I'm not convinced by lots of big mountain stages ending back on the valley floor, it will always result in the big GC names finishing together.
It's always been thus but to win the Tour you need to be a decent TTer. Froome is and hence won.

I enjoyed the tour, the lack of mountain to finishes brought something new to the event.
Though the flat finishes after a mountain descent.. hmmm
a short sharp 1 to 1.5km rise at the end of these stages would be better. whoever was feeling freshest after a day's climbing would be able to take a good chunk out of those around them in the GC.

Ok Lads, a bit of an epic but these are my thoughts..

Overall:
The Course, I didn’t like it much. I felt there were too many Sprint Stages that lead to too much control by the Sprinters Teams. This lead to boring stages, no breaks were allowed to go, no punts off the front of more than 7mins, invariably 4mins max. Tootling down some stunning countryside with 1-2km gap between the forever doomed Break and the Bunch meant the only thing to watch was the stunning scenery, fabulous as this is it’s not race per se’ more of a series of Transition Stages. IMO the course needs to change, lets have some shorter Stages of 180k max, for 15 Stages of the Race, 3 250k Stages close together, then the mountains to top it off.

The Structure, TT’s should be banned. Dull as listening to Brian Smith’s inane whiney platitudes. Sprints, Fine have them but 2 max. Transition Stages, yes obviously because we need a Break to form and punt off the Front. Mountains, yes but not too many, I think this year got it right.

The Teams, quite what Wanty GG were there for I’ve no idea. The ASO’s ever burgeoning bank account and Accountants must have choked on their Croissant when the application and deposit cheque landed on the mat. Movistar, poor showing fellas. Take Quinty out of the equation for a second and they hardly performed at all, add Qunity back in and the support for him was weak and lacking in depth. Astonishingly accomplished they are, but for some reason lacked motivation. I can’t put that down to Valverde scooting out on the first Stage either, because even if he was in it would have been him only fighting for Stage wins and possibly a top 5. Fortuneo, my favourite Team, considering their budget of €3.5m they had depth, quality in both Flat Landers and Mountain men, and quality hard nuts like Dan McLay. Long may they return to fight for placings. Sunweb, awesome performance….makes me wonder why Degenholb left, but what a Team. Notable perfomances are obviously Barguil, but Mathews (not a fan) even got out of the wind once or twice to show he’s not just falling fowl of the wheelsucker moniker. But TenDam, Arndt and Geschke a formidable trio you couldn’t find anywhere. Trek, not bad lads, sad as it is Bertie isn't the rider of old anymore. Mollema is an all time favourite and he did bloody well all through and so did deKort, John was there early on but I think he's having settling in issues.. I think he's morphing into a Classics specialist and a Tour is too long for him, good effort all round and a solid performance in general. Cofodis, ye Gawds. Co’mon Lads get it together. Boot BullyBoyBuhanni out and get some depth in the squad or at least let them play to their strengths.. Edet and Navvaro were the only two we ever saw anywhere.. what happened to the other guys? C’mon ASO stop inviting them because you go to dinner with them all the time. FDJ, well.. sadly only 3 lads finished. But they tried, have to say they at lest put a decent Squad together and then fell foul of illness and crashes.. ooop’s.. Merida.. another pointless inclusion IMO. They do have strength and depth in numbers, some great names with talent but hardly going to do well with the courses they had to ride on.. TDD, brilliant performance overall, quality and talent a plenty, lit up many a dull stage and well worthy of being invited back. Stevo sadly didn’t perform even to his own utterly brilliant standard but his Eurosport comments made up for that, well do Steve. EBH, wow.. last we heard of EBH was his very lacklustre performance at Sky all those years ago, taken a whilst to get his smile back and thankfully he’s way better than before he joined the “machine”. Even taking out HeadbuttRenshaw and Cav they easily out perfomed their ranking and Powels IMO being the quality (another ex “machine’ rider) that held TDD together. Katusha, erm… I have no idea whats going on over there. Signed Tony to do the pulling only to find he’s lost a little of his spirit.. Politt was the star by a very long way.. out in the breaks (hmmm, what breaks) Machado of old occasionally flourished, Kiserlofski shaded a poorly performing Kristoff.. and Kristoff himself.. hum.. sorry but wheres that anger you once had.. hardly up there, hardly making contact with the sprint group and coming in two splits down? I think the regime is killing the team personally. Bora, have nothing much to say other than well done Burghart for taking it up and punting off the front and riding out front until your legs fell off.. Superstar and all round good egg, the others were lost once Majka, Sagan and his brother were out.. no direction, nowhere to go, no real need to break a sweat other than Burghart who took it up when the others lacked. Lotto NL, once Van Emden and Gesink went out that was it for them. Always up for a fight the sparky and sprightly LNL can be relied upon for Breaks and Frolicks in the mountains, thankfully they have Gronewagen and Rojlic which just goes to show even with 5 left yo can still out punch Katusha. QS.. well heres a thing, I thought they’d do extreeemly well and they almost did, but loosing Trentin and Gilbert kinda made them loose the firepower of a solid second row forwards with the wit and willingness to punt out. I’m ignoring Kittel because he rides a Mamil Bike and talks about himself in the third person, pretentious oik. Dan Martin is forever in the mountains on his own, he’s always been a singular fighter in what ever team he’s been in, but this is now a very sad reflection on Teams lack of support for him, Dan .. please move teasm to someone who will support your heroic efforts .. theres a lad. Direct Energie.. fabulous performance as always, can’t ignore Voeckler’s doomed breaks and heroic punts and the Tour will be a sad place now he’s unclipping. But notable performances form Sicard, great win by Calmajane, Chavanels form back in place (now that he’s retiring) and Petit and Tulik super support crew. UAE..hmmm another ASO toping up the bank balance squad. Hardly a day went by to see Ulissi and Swifty try something to only lack the depth they need. It’s early days, a new team yet to gel properly I know, can’t leave Attapuma out can I? Well yes, a couple of punts but too much pressure on young legs and a rider who lacks confidence in the mountains I feel. Astana.. Ok, who turned out the lights? What happened to the Aru support network? Where was the firepower and legs to drag the gaping Aru up the hills or tear the legs off the “machine” ? Not like they’ve not got any quality or ability, I think loosing Fuglesang killed the squad, Valgrens public spat and open chats with Sky upset the management so much I thought at one point Valgren would be found in a layby comatose with a suspect package placed in his inside pocket.. Grivko, a solid more experienced rider there isn’t. at least we got to see him grind aaaaaawwwwaaay.. occasionally. But Aru needs support, he needs a solid decent happy domestique to tag along with.. despite Nibb’s raised eyebrow I think they’d have made a great team together but Nibbs is his own man and off he went to form a squad around him.. Aru’s left to pick up the pieces and I don’t’ think he has the management skills to do that, he’s just a decent nice bloke who happens to ride bakes really bloody well. Lotto.. Well what happened here I ask? Greipel isn’t the only guy in the squad and thankfully he knows that, they work incredibly well as a tight nit team, quality in spades and intuitive too.. loosing Wellans was hard, but Thomas De Ghent turned out impeccably well, being a huge fan of his I’m biased but still.. superb effort Sir. Notable performances from Roelandts and Gallopin too brought the team well up there and worthy solid performance.. lets see how far TdG’s combative claim goes.. AG2r, well they came, they fought and they performed impeccably IMO. Flushes of brilliance, tactics typically French (and all the better for it) and some real quality and commitment. Bardet was Epic, a truly great performance worthy of a winner. We know he lacks a TT mentality, but who cares about TT’s? there should be more to the Tour than expecting a quality rider to hunkerdown in a stupid position whilst in pain. But I’ll never now forget the images of him in the gutter, totally drained. I go on about riding till you puke, but that effort was very touch and go for me to accept as normal. Come back soon AG2r, French Cycling is back where it belongs. I have one word of caution, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO FOLLOW THE ‘machine” Do your own riding, your own squad preparations and your own training regimes. BMC, they came, they tried something, they left without much. Another hugely experienced and intelligent squad left to try riding like thieyre riding on their own in a training camp. GVA, Schar, Wyss, DeMarchi, Kung and Moinard .. my word if you wrote that down on paper and said “I think we could sign these guys” you’d cream your pants at the possibility.. but they rode like they were on a training camp with flashes of brilliance let down by a lack of intelligence. Portes Punt was sad to see, but even with him in I don’t think they’d have done much more than they did, I don’t think Porte really has the depth to win a Tour, but I think given the support anyone of those other guys do. Cannondale, well yeah but.. but.. yeah kinda… Phinney did well, but not sparkling. Talansky is a great flat lander but there was hardly any flat in the Tour, where was Rolland? Hmmm.. I’m not the only one asking either and then Uran.. Uran of old Uran or quality and measured skill. Thankfully he quit the “machine” because frankly that regime wasn’t in his best interests, now Cannondale have the ability lets see some more support and direction to the management please. Orica, nah.. another ASO cheque deposit scheme, came, blurred a bit, floundered a bit, and left Yatesy to do it all himself.. That’s not fair nor very supportive but it shows Yatesy has a quality far more worthy of another team, please move. And we a re here, Sky. The ‘machine” a data driven network of power outputs and algorithms. Notable perfomances were Kyri now looking like hes ready for retirement and Kwiato to take over where Kyri once rulled effortlessly, Kwiato is the star of the squad IMO, without whom Sky would have faltered. Landa is one of my alltime heros and should get the hell out of Sky right now and take Nieve too.. two more quality riders shown the red card by the “machine” you’d not see. Thomas and his retirement didn’t seem to hurt anyone at all, begs the question why such a quality rider wasn’t missed more.. but then Sky were by far the best prepared and controlling interface of any squad I’ve ever seen in any Tour., even going back to the Discovery Days (but that was an era of bullyboy and nastiness) this era is just a numbers game and placing pieces on a moving chessboard at the right time, clinical and bloody boring. Froomy is not a winner of the Tour, the Sky Team are. Froomys lack of anything other than a squirt of 200mtrs, to catch a small break or stretch of the legs, is a typical of his riding abilities. Kwiato should have won this, or Landa. I don’t like the “machine” I hate their tactics and roadblocks and management style.

The ASO and it’s grip. Yes it’s theirs, yes the French Government support it, yes it’s a Travel Show, yes its French, yes it’s a Travel Show… is it a Race? I think it’s lost it’s way honestly. It’s now a media platform for promoting the French Countryside and it’s enviable location and variety.

TV coverage, Eurosport I’m a huge fan of. There at the beginning of the TV revolution and here to the end, great commentary and wit. Kirby-Kelly show was excellent, Matt Stephens is utterly fantastic, please let his humour come through it’ll be ace, kick Whiny Smith out please.. dear God what squeaky whiney bore of a man.. and Rob Hatch should eat more chips, speak less, stop regurgitating the same old platitudes and wildly exaggerated pronunciations.. But thanks lads and Jonathon Edwards for asking some pointed questions and showing just how nice a bloke should be.

All IMO.

And thanks to all that have taken the time to comment and criticise, punt and pundit and Lunge for encouraging us to get involved during our turbulent working days.

hell any chance of some paragraphs in that!!

Breathe Bikebouy, breathe man...

Theres full stops and commas and every fink...

I did set it out, but when posted it's crammed it altogether.

S
O
Z

But it is lunchtime, gotta digest [i]something[/i]...

A question, given that Landa finished 90 seconds down on Uran, if Froome wasn't there, would he have won?

We will never really know. Or care. 😈

more seriously I suspect he will be added to the list of Porte, Poels, Thomas maybe...

hell any chance of some paragraphs in that!!

I had to highlight each part as I read it.

^ ****ing hell looks like someone's been typing for 3 weeks solid.

"The Giro-Tour double is buried for a generation I think."

Don't agree, I fancy that Yates lad for the double.

Don't agree, I fancy that Yates lad for the double.

well if the yellow and pink jerseys fit whose to say that Adam can't ride as a super domestique for Simon? Or the other way round.

Love the headline that popped up on my FB trending (aka yesterday's news today)...

Chris Froome Wins Tour de France, Again

Sums up the ennui that the mainstream media outside the UK must feel.

Heroes: Team Sky for fielding a team with such strength in depth & single-minded will to win. Other teams take note - you need your top riders here with their egos left at home.

Special hero mention for Michael Matthews. He was already closing the gap to Kittel before he Kittel crashed out. He showed utmost consistency throughout - reminds me of Thor Hushovd.

Villains: Not that impressed with the Sagan decision but perhaps "villain" is pushing it.

Highlights: seeing such a strong list of GC contender who got themselves in the right condition at the right time and took the fight to Froome.

Lowlights: Gee, Porte, Cav & Kittel crashing out.

General thoughts: see the conclusions thread, but in short this was a parcor designed for Bardet, who I think looked stronger than last year. That said, Sky saw this too & responded with a Froome who can now handle his bike incredibly well when compared to years gone by & a team of winners who left their egos at home to pursue their given task.

Chris Froome Wins Tour de France, Again

🙂 Quite amusing that. It's a phenomenal achievement that the public seem fairly blasé about. To put it into perspective, the only riders who have (officially!) won more TDF than Froome are Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault and Indurain. Some company to be keeping.

Kinda disappointing tour for me overall.
Too many mountain stages not finishing up mountains.
Gutted we didn't get to see what Richie Porte and 'G' had to offer.

Things i'd like to see, more mountain finishes - particularly ones suited to out and out climbers - mountain stages finishing at the end of long valleys are a total waste of a stage.
1 steep mountain TT, maybe something like:
[img] [/img]
And one long (60km) pancake flat TT

So 21 Stages:
4 Sprinters stages
6 middle mountain stages (2 of which with a glimmer of hope for sprinters)
7 High mountain stages (with 5 summit finishes)
2 Classics style stages with punchy uphill finishes
1 Mountain TT
1 60km Paris TT to finish

I'd maybe start with a short ITT again, maybe one flat sprint stage, but then go straight into some mid-mountain stages. Always good to see breakaway chancers in yellow 🙂

I want more cobbles

I like your stage list Fifeandy!

I want more cobbles

That's a tough one. Makes for great spectacle but it usually also means bad crashes and abandonments, which can be to the detriment of the race. Think I'd rather they leave the cobbles to the classics.

Fifeandy - costal crosswind stages please. Always fun and a real leveller bringing the light climbing machines back down to earth, hopefully making sure they need to attack when it goes up.

costal crosswind stages please. Always fun and a real leveller bringing the light climbing machines back down to earth, hopefully making sure they need to attack when it goes up.

tidal causeways 😈

But they're fun.

A Lindisfarne finish on the next GB grand depart Aracer?

Guy Smiley:
[img] [/img]

Mikel Landa:
[img] [/img]

Can you do Aru and Ed Miliband?

My thoughts are that people seem to be forgetting people ride bikes not machines.

Also can the Yates brothers swap blood between each other without anyone knowing? Bit like Tyler Hamilton and his "twin"

Hillclimb TT yes please.
I like the final stage, all those sprinters who've dragged themselves over the mountains deserve something.
A couple of classic type finishes yes please.
Could the flat stages be made more interesting by giving breakaways more chance to succeed? Narrower roads, lots of corners, radios banned?
Also bigger gaps between GTs would be great ideally resulting in the last week of le Tour being the first week of the school holidays so I can take the kids over!

Hill climb tt with no rules on weight of bike!

eBikes allowed 😆

eBikes allowed

... and you have max 30 seconds of "power up" you can use during each stage and once you use some of your power up you can't use it again for 60 seconds.

How about two dedicated 'bike swap zones' per stage. Scrap the weight limit too! 5kg hill climb machine for the mountain then onto your disc-braked aero bike with 32's and a dropper for the descent?

Brilliant, you could recharge them in a Zone going downhill (for instance) but only for a couple of turns, then you've had it until the next Zone.
And we need a Guru who could run the whole show, make billions and influence the world TV networks that it's "like the best thing eva" and command a high fee. Then, that income could be distributed un-equally favouring the big teams Obvz.

I'm writing to Mr Cookson with a Scope and Approach document I've just put together on the back of a Gel Packet I've found in the bushes,

Heros: Bardet for exciting racing, Uran for never say die attitude, Martin for constantly attacking

Villains: Aru for attacking le Maillot Jaune whilst having a mechanical - and the French fans for booing and being not good sports

Highlights: The race up the airstrip where Froome was in trouble - the only time it looked there was genuinely a race on.

Low lights: flat stage tedium

Your general thoughts:
Strangely this has been the most exciting - and simultaneously - the most boring, Tour in recent years.

Exciting that the top 4 were separated by less than 30 seconds entering the final week - so all to play for and the promise of great battles to come.
Boring because those epic battles didn't occur - plus too many tedious flat stages.

What I want from sport is excitement and I think most people do. We want epic battles, we want toil and suffering, jubilation, heroism, intrigue and suspense. We want to be on the edge of our seats, or jumping up and down screaming at the telly.

I'm very glad Chris Froome won - but I would have preferred he'd been put under extreme pressure and this his victory was hard-fought, hard-won and that we'd witnessed epic battles along the way.

Sadly, we didn't.

They should add an extra jersey

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/commentary-case-red-combativity-jersey-tour-de-france/

Reducing team sizes may help spice things up but not unless they are drastically smaller. Sky still won with a super domistique missing for most of the race in any case.

I agree about the comment higher up. Every stage needs to have an impact on a major part of the race. A jersey needs to be fought over or the days racing needs to be exciting in itself not just break, catch, jersey leaders fight it out.

I quite liked the short punchy stuff - good near he start to let some new faces wear yellow. Also the really steep stuff compared to the long drags seemed to mix things up.

I'd sooner see an exciting race then Froome win.

They should add an extra jersey

I'm all for the Thomas De Gendt jersey. Even though he somehow didn't win it. Which maybe is the problem with such a jersey. They'd need to figure out a more transparent method of awarding it.