[Closed] To go tubeless, yay or nay?

[i]Ive just bought some of Hope's own Enduro wheels and really like them but getting 2.3 Hans Dampf's on them without ruining the tube or the rim was hair pullingly annoying.

I cant imagine having to change a tube on the trail as it even took the LBS a fairly long time with plenty of persusion to get them on the rim. Another plus point would be that I'd be saving a little bit on rotating weight as I've felt a bit sluggish up the hills.

So, questions are, is tubeless more reliable than tubed? will I suffer with burping? Generally reliable?
[/i]

Yes, but don't try tubeless until you can get your own tyres on - otherwise we'll get another 'tubeless is crap' post

^What he said.

The weight saving isn't worth mentioning either.

I run tubeless to stop pinch punctures. I couldn't go back to tubes now.

Is there special ways of getting the tyres on to the rims other than having the finger strength of a silverback gorilla?

dooge
heel of your hand with the wheel lying flat on the floor, or even tread on them.

And yes, I noticed my rear was a bit squishy after a ride round our fantastic Southern Pennine bridleways, and found an inch long slit that had obviously newly appeared, then sealed itself nicely. A full inspection of the tyre showed over fifty little nicks and cuts which had all got the telltale shine of sealant around them, so that's over fifty times I haven't had to stop and patch or swap a tube. Yay.

[i]Is there special ways of getting the tyres on to the rims other than having the finger strength of a silverback gorilla? [/i]

Yes, go tubeless and then use tyre levers 🙂

Just remember to run enough pressure in the front so you don't burp the tyre, lose all the air and £3 of jizz, go OTB and land on your knee, thigh, elbow and have the bike **** you in the back of the head in Chopwell last night.

Hans Dampfs are hard to get on the rim, just make sure you get the first bead on in to the recessed middle of the rim and then put the other bead on making sure the sections of that bead that are on are also in the middle of the rim.

Worked for me, i found my schwalbes even harder to get on or off.

Stans rims and Hans Dampfs on a mates 650 last week was a total disaster We still cant get them to seal. Left him with tubes to fit on it. It wouldn't even bead to the edge of the rim with 100 psi and the whole drive swimming in washing up liquid and stans. Never had any luck with stans rims, always been impossible to set up, unlike Mavics which go pop, pop and job done.

Interesting. I was told that you should never use tyre levers on tubeless tyres if you ever want to run them tubeless as it mangles the bead slightly. I have tried to keep the other side of the tyre in the middle but seems hard to do with a wide tyre on a thin rim.

I always thought they were a Stans based rim with eyelets just down to dimensions matching up with weights being similar.

Teethgrinder, sounds nasty!

I'm a big tubeless fan- the fact that I do, oh, 95% of my riding tubeless, and get 100% of all my punctures on tubes, is pretty decisive for me. But, I've got a compressor in the garage, I'd be much less keen if I didn't!

breadcrumb - Member

The weight saving isn't worth mentioning either.

Couple of hundred grams, worth mentioning imo.

Compressor is rather useful.

I thought a 200g per wheel minimum with standard tubes is a decent saving. Im persuaded to do it and my LBS said they will do the legwork!

Do the tubeless riders carry around tubes when out on the trails? If you've had to use a compressor to get it set up, then you're not going to have much luck if you have an issue trailside...

I've only just got myself a tubeless setup, but i've been happily running tubes with sealant in for years. Never had a trailside puncture while using 'Joe's no flats' tubes.

Can't remember last using a tube!

The weight saving isn't worth mentioning either.
I run tubeless to stop pinch punctures. I couldn't
go back to tubes now.

+1

I used to be plagued by pinch flats and occasional punctures. I'm now not. I have tubeless on all my mtb and my cx. Even when I have got a thorn in the tyre it's sealed so at worst I've just had to pump a small amount of air in.

I would say though that tubeless swaps faff on the trail for faff in the garage. At least at the start.

Been ghetto duct tape/gorillia tape tubeless since 2004, never had an issue with burping or otherwise - never had the hassle of ever sorting a puncture or flat either - what is the point of running tubes these days?.

Of all the advances over the years i'll keep tubeless and disc brakes, not bothered about suspension whether that be front or rear.

I tried tubeless. Stans flows, exo Ardents, all the shizzle .
Worked really well.......until they didn't and I had two crashes, one at high speed where the tyre decided to burp and send me down the trail on the rim at Afan and I launched into the rocky bank.
This was after a few weeks with no issues.
For that reason, I'm out.

I never get burping because I'm heavy so even at tubeless pressures, there's enough air in there (20-25psi) to prevent it.

Out of interest, those getting burping, what pressures are you running?

kayak23 - Member
I tried tubeless. Stans flows, exo Ardents, all the shizzle .
Worked really well.......until they didn't and I had two crashes, one at high speed where the tyre decided to burp and send me down the trail on the rim at Afan and I launched into the rocky bank.
This was after a few weeks with no issues.
For that reason, I'm out.

Ardents coming off the rim isnt a tubeless only issue - it happened to my front wheel at the weekend with a tubed set up which sent me over the bars.

It must be the tyre that's taking the effort and not the rim - just bought one for the fron and my Spesh Eskar almost put itself on.

Had to blow it up to 60psi to seat it properly though.

[quote=Thrustyjust ]Stans rims and Hans Dampfs on a mates 650 last week was a total disaster

I find the 26" ones work fine

Duffer - Member

Do the tubeless riders carry around tubes when out on the trails? If you've had to use a compressor to get it set up, then you're not going to have much luck if you have an issue trailside...

I don't need the compressor- it just makes things quick and easy. With a track pump, every so often some tyre smells weakness and puts up a fight, I've always won in the end but it can be pretty frustrating.

I carry a tube when riding. Though it's a very long time since I've had to fit it, I've saved a few other people's rides though. (in fact my last trailside puncture repair was the 12th August 2013 😉 ) Some tyre damage can make reinflating without a tube impossible, but in any case I wouldn't count on seating a tubeless tyre with a portable pump.

Some folks swear by CO2 for this though.

my dampfs were a right pita to get on, but strangely, only the first time. I guess they stretch a bit after a while, and although they are still "tight" to get off, they are not impossible (levers needed, but placcy ones work now)

Im tubeless, took the hans off today for the summer.

they were really tight but easy once you know how 8)

I carry a spare tube just in case as I'm not walking home.

I went tubeless this year, I'll never go back.

dooge - Member

I thought a 200g per wheel minimum with standard tubes is a decent saving. Im persuaded to do it and my LBS said they will do the legwork!

It was less than that in my case I was using 130 gram conti mtb light tubes which I have swapped for 100 gram of sealant.

Last weekend went tubeless. Hans Damfs on Crests. The tyres had been run tubed for 600 Miles and the conversion was effortless. Just a track pump.
Still carry a tube but also the Weldtite Tubeless repair kit [url= http://weldtite.co.uk/products/detail/cycle-tubeless-tyre-outside-repair-kit ]simples![/url]

I think the cosmos favours tubeless when it fancies. Ive put them on in no time and other times I've raged for hours only to collapse in the foetal position under the workbench. I found the with experience that rim profiles must be the culprit. On Mavics the HansD's struggled, on my Nukeproofs (sunringle basically) they glided on. Oh and use shaving gel to seat them, nectar of the wheelgods!

I don't how you get the figure of 200 grams per wheel, you're replacing a 200 gram inner tube with 60-120 grams or so of sealent (dependent on tyre size) +valves.
It was less than that in my case I was using 130 gram conti mtb light tubes which I have swapped for 100 gram of sealant.

This is what I meant by not worth mentioning. Unless you run bare minimum amount of sealant and are replacing heavy tubes you aren't going to save much weight. Plus a few grams for a valve too.

I normally run a fair bit of sealant too, puncture paranoia!

Some claim to feel a difference once they've ditched the tube, I can't.

Ghetto method here. Only had one in incident that needed extra sealant and co2 in over a year.
Plastic bottle method for sealing.
It does feel different. Not sure how but it does, they feel as if there flat and a bit squirmy but in a good way.

I really like tubeless on my xc bike, but on my bikes where i do anything exciting i ran into burping issues, ended up running higher pressures than i would with a tube and it became a bit pointless.

I've nearly gave up on tubless, out of my 4 wheels on the two mtb's only 1 is still tubeless, I ride mostly natural rocky terrain and even with running decent pressure I've had 'burping' but more of a problem is getting punctures that just won't seal....

Found taking the valve core out to start with a track pump ans seat the tyre helps... Also getting the tyre on, start opposite the valve and work back towards it. Helps the bead sit in the centre channel of the rim...

Get some pedros tyre levers, best there is.

I went tubeless a couple of years ago. Run Arch EX with Hans Dampfs, never had issues fitting them, seating them, removing them or burping them! Just put my super gravity's back on for the Alps, no tire levers needed and inflated with a track pump.

The problem with bike tubeless, unlike say cars, is the sheer variability of equipment and methods of achieving it. With variability comes mixed results.

Take UST, it's a bombproof setup. It rarely goes wrong putting tyres on. It works for everyone irrespective of their experience but its heavy and expensive. Throw in all the other possible ways of achieving tubeless, and those with less experience or a less technical mindset have a greater chance of suffering doing it wrong or mis-matching components that don't play well together, because there is no given tubeless standard beyond UST.

We're not all lucky enough to get it right first time, or observe the reasons for our failures, hence the high variability of 'tubeless is crap' through to 'tubeless is amazing' comments, sometimes for the same equipment. Even the way it's sold to us varies, so our expectations vary from the outset.

I've used tubeless in one iteration or another since 2003. Starting with full on DIY and working through a lot of problems over the years. Here's what I think/have learned:

Tubeless can save you weight.
It you ride in rough terrain, going lighter can compromise your tyre durability because the butyl liner formed by an inner tube is not present. Mostly this happens when you use non tubeless tyres with a rims strip. It manifests often as buggered sidewalls and tears in the carcass. IMO you should forget about weight savings from tubeless unless you're an XC type. Put the weight saved back into a tyre with a more durable sidewall and carcass.

Tubeless will save you punctures.
And lots of them. It's exceptionally good with thorn punctures, but is not infallible. Sidewall cuts, snakebites and carcass tears, unless small will need help to seal by a plug of some kind, so carry some. Anchovy kits are the best but use them generously, not sparingly. Rarely have I seen sealant reliably hold a medium to large hole of this type. Thorn punctures are only a problem if you skimp on sealant or run dry. Sometimes running dry happens way quicker than you think.

Tubeless gives you better grip and rolling resistance.
All true. How much depends on your pressures. Go too low and you risk rim strikes and snakebites, soggy feeling handling in corners and air burps in tyre torsion situations.

Tubeless setup can be easy or difficult.
No surprises there then, given the content of this thread. As a rule, DIY tubeless is the least reliable and most difficult to setup, hybrid systems like rims strips for normal tyres are in the middle and designed systems are the most reliable and easy to setup. Hybrid systems can perform as well as designed systems or they can be an infuriating mess of failure and stickiness mostly related to tyre inflation. Although I have seen a couple of non tubeless maxxis beads stretch and become less reliable over time, nearly all inflation problems I've encountered have come from the closeness of the initial fit between tyre bead and the rim. Reduce this with tape or packing of some type and most of your hassle will disappear, although you must ensure there is adequate space just next to the rim bead for the tyre to sit in.
Some of the tyre and rims combinations are the reverse of this, being very tight and don't like to snap to the beads - lubricate them before inflation to help into position. Running around each bead/ rim with soapy water is usually enough. Bear in mind that if it was a bitch to inflate in your garage, it will be nigh on impossible to do it on the trail, so do yourself a favour and set it up so the its reliable in the luxury of your garage so you have a fighting chance of getting a re inflation on the trail.

'Carry a tube for your tubeless just in case'
This has been more useful to people I ride with than me. When you eventually do get a tubeless puncture, any tube you put in will be instantly perforated by the countless thorns already present that you have completely failed to notice because tubeless was doing its job. Do you fancy pulling out say, 18 (my last count out of curiosity) thorns to ensure that your tube stays up? I'd rather leave the tyre on the rim and push in a few anchovy plugs thanks.

There, I've said my bit. That's about it.

Scienceofficer - Member

Tubeless can save you weight.
It you ride in rough terrain, going lighter can compromise your tyre durability because the butyl liner formed by an inner tube is not present. Mostly this happens when you use non tubeless tyres with a rims strip. It manifests often as buggered sidewalls and tears in the carcass. IMO you should forget about weight savings from tubeless unless you're an XC type. Put the weight saved back into a tyre with a more durable sidewall and carcass.

This really depends on your taste in tyres- I use the tyres I like not the tyres I think are lightest for the job, and they're all suitable for tubes or tubeless- I'd still be using my Butchers if I went back to tubes, frinstance. But yeah, it can be a consideration

dirtydog - Member

I don't how you get the figure of 200 grams per wheel, you're replacing a 200 gram inner tube with 60-120 grams or so of sealent (dependent on tyre size) +valves.

It was less than that in my case I was using 130 gram conti mtb light tubes which I have swapped for 100 gram of sealant.

That's not the best comparison though, 100g of sealant is a far more reliable/punctureproof approach than a skinny tube. For a fair comparison you'd be looking at a 200, 250g tube to get equivalent performance. So in your case, you've traded some of hte weight saving for durability, which is fair enough but it's still there.

In my case Northwind I never suffered from pinch flats anyway, to be honest Im a bit disillusioned with the whole light wheels tubeless thing.

Ive recently gone from 2.1kg wheelset with tubes to a 1.7kg wheelset without tubes, cost me close to 200 quid and cant say I've noticed much, if any difference.

Before anyone comments......... nothing wrong with the wheels, I built them, they are true and at the correctly tensioned.

Edit sorry double post

Lots of interesting answers! Esp Scienceofficer.

Im an ex DH rider, I only ride up to ride down so im always going to error on the side of heavy. My bike isnt compromised and I wouldnt do something to compromise it, including tubeless if I was mega hard on tyres or tubes. Im going tubeless to hopefully have less hassle, save any amount of weight and possibly run a lower pressure if I need it. Im not a man of accuracies, I have no idea how much pressure I run in my tyres but go by feel.

Thanks for the replies!

If anyone has had enough and wants rid of some tubeless wheels, let me know! I'd definitely be interested in a singlespeed specific rear/pair with Stans rims 🙂

I'm in the not camp being quite heavy. I've had front pinch flats at speed on fast descents. Plenty of time to haul up the bike safely, throw another tube in and carry on.
I wouldn't fancy my chances with total tyre deflation in the same situation like tubeless would do.

It's a funny one, there is certainly an element of tubeless gods smiling down. However the big thing is proper prep, making sure you've got a good tight fit on the tyres (HD haters, tight fitting is an advantage, you need less tape!) preferably never fit the tyres straight post unfolding as the kinks cause issues. Have soapy water close to hand.

I rarely have trouble with setups, generally when you do then you've missed a step (most often you need an extra layer of tape IME) I have a compressor however I've got it to save workshop time rather than for sealing poor setups.

Crossmax st & rubber queens.

1tubeless puncture in 3 years when a shard of Flint put a a 2" long slit in the tread.

Won't be using tubes again (until I can ditch them in the roadie)

Not one puncture in over 3 years now since going tubeless. I only ever carry a tube when in Wales...and even then I've never needed it. I think its 4 years old now!

I'm in the not camp being quite heavy. I've had front pinch flats at speed on fast descents. Plenty of time to haul up the bike safely, throw another tube in and carry on.
I wouldn't fancy my chances with total tyre deflation in the same situation like tubeless would do.

I've never had a pinch flat that is anything other than near as dammit instantly flat, so you must be hitting the perfect compression every time so only very slightly pierce that tube. All mine used to just ram straight through to the rim and be flat in less than a wheel revolution.

there is certainly an element of tubeless gods smiling down.

This is horseshit and implies successful tubeless is something that just randomly happens against the odds.success or failure is achieved by implementing the components of the system effectively or not. For those that fail, it's because they have not adequately observed and understood the failure mode, or lack the patience to try again with a different methodology and amendments learned from the previous attempts.

I'm in the not camp being quite heavy. I've had front pinch flats at speed on fast descents. Plenty of time to haul up the bike safely, throw another tube in and carry on.
I wouldn't fancy my chances with total tyre deflation in the same situation like tubeless would do.

I've been running tubeless for over a year now and had my first 'puncture' this week pumping the back end through a drainage ditch in the alps and slicing the tyre on a very pointy rock. Deflated in about 5-10 seconds, and I had plenty of time to stop up before it was flat. To be clear if I was running a tube it would have sliced that too!

Chucked a tube and a thick piece of rubber in over the hole and blew it up quite a bit above my normal pressure - handling was negatively affected and later on I still managed to pinch the tube - would not have happened tubeless.

I also run my rigid single speed tubeless, have quite frequently felt the rim bottom out on the tyre - never flatted the bugger, this would not be true with tubes!

For the reduced on trail hassle I'm a convert - never had a massive issue setting them up, 26" Hans Dampfs on Arch EX and 29" Ardents on WTB somethings.

marky29er - Member

I'm in the not camp being quite heavy. I've had front pinch flats at speed on fast descents. Plenty of time to haul up the bike safely, throw another tube in and carry on.
I wouldn't fancy my chances with total tyre deflation in the same situation like tubeless would do.

It wouldn't, though. Chances are it wouldn't flat at all, in fact. But in the event you manage to pinch the tyre, you get basically the same flat as you would have done with tubes. Though with a high chance that it seals or at least partially seals, making things safer still.

Scienceofficer - Member

This is horseshit and implies successful tubeless is something that just randomly happens against the odds

And yet... I've fitted a tyre and had it go up effortlessly, realised it was back to front, reversed it, and had it put up an epic fight. No changes in technique or components, so what else accounts for that but luck/randomness?

[i]I wouldn't fancy my chances with total tyre deflation in the same situation like tubeless would do. [/i]

Err, you've got that the wrong way around. One of the benefits of tubeless is that they don't on the whole suddenly deflate, tubes do though.

Which is why cars and motorcycles moved to tubeless years ago - it's more reliable in more situations.

And yet... I've fitted a tyre and had it go up effortlessly, realised it was back to front, reversed it, and had it put up an epic fight. No changes in technique or components, so what else accounts for that but luck/randomness

Irrespective of how certain you are, all this means is that you changed something and missed it. There is always a reason.

Maybe it was some grit in the bead, maybe you displaced the edge of some rim tape or damaged it with your tyre lever, perhaps you damaged part of the bead taking the tyre off, or knocked the valve when you were handling the wheel. Perhaps the tyre beads weren't quite in the same position on the rim bed as previously, maybe taking the tyre off stretched the bead just a little bit more and put enough slack into the rim/bead interface that you couldn't build up pressure fast enough. Maybe it was none of these things, or a combination of several, or something else I can't fathom, but there is always, always a reason.

Done four sets of wheels tubeless now. 2 sets of stans rims and they're an absolute doddle. Rim tape plus a good track pump and the tyres started to inflate instantly.

Used the stans kit with rimstrips on the other 2 sets. That's far more variable. Sometimes they go up easily with a track pump, some required compressors. Neat washing up liquid is a massive help. Don't water it down, just apply it straight to the rim strips and spread it all round the rim.

On the trail I've had gashes that would have destroyed a tub but they have sealed up instantly with the stans gunk. Being able to run lower pressures is also awesome. Every bike is tubeless now and they always will be

Scienceofficer - Member

Perhaps the tyre beads weren't quite in the same position on the rim bed as previously,

This is it- and since it's mostly influenced by chance, this is where the tubeless gods live.

Defoe go for it.

Unless the tyres start to ooze red stuff, in which case call for a priest with a bell and a candle.

OMG not one single pic
[img] [/img]

who is that?

[url= http://www.lost-soul.co.uk/drac/Singletrack%20-%20Mountain%20Bike%20Magazine.htm ]It's been a while[/url]

That/he is [i]The Badger[/i], a throwback to halcyon past times and a legendary thread that spawned a multitude of photoshopped explosion themed pics, from the hindenburg to the Atom bomb to the Concorde tyre blow out - Badger caused them all

Not only was it a very funny thread in itself but it was made funnier by the irate responses of Badger to all the folk who wound him up, of which there were many.

edit : was it [i]really[/i] 11 years ago?, i may as well open another bottle of whisky to aid the memory loss. Chin…chin….

I wonder what ever happened to him.......still here?

No matter how many times i've read that thread i still get the giggles from the response by [i]justsomeyank[/i]

#1. Just because your fat ass is in a picture does not mean that you own the copyright to said picture. Have your attorney check into US law.

#2. It seems that the root of your distress is that you are an extremely insecure person, as evidenced by your posts here and your hilarious email. Perhaps your attorney could recommend a good psychologist, or even a few decent hookers?

#3. In response to your reaction to the Oliver's parody site:

Stuff it up your big fat ass, have a few pints, and get over yourself already.

Then find someone to buy you a proper sense of humor (hell, one would expect that someone raised in the culture that brought the world Monty Python would have a head start on this part, but you never know....).

Best of luck!

Note to mods/stw towers? .

Can we have one day a year when we are allowed to rip the piss out of each other and swear like we used to?

been tubeless exactly a year. not had a single puncture. probably becasue it aint been out the shed since!!

only joking. ive been out a couple of times a week all year really. local mainly but also lakes, peaks, wales, scotland, plus loads of trail centres and uplift days.

can see no point in tubes any more, other than to get you home if you gash your tyre. but touch wood........

I've been tubeless for 3 years or so. However, I'm using UST rims and tyres, and whilst it's not the lightest set-up (though it's lighter than the cheap OEM wheels that came with the bike), it's very easy to manage.

Top up the Stans sealant once a year (which was this weekend), and reinflate with a track pump (first time, every time).
One puncture (which sealed itself after a bit of air loss) in three years, running 25psi or so.

Wouldn't go back to tubes on the MTB. Now need to convert the CX bike.

Poor old Badger, he really did take himself rather too seriously. It was a thread that nearly matched the hilarity of blu-tones picolax thread, but it's a shame it ended in a massive flounce.