[Closed] Titanium ,still not a bike for life?

depends what wheel size you order I guess 🙂 If you had ordered a 26 one a yr ago I'd suggest more like a 'bike for 5 yrs'....

If you want a "bike for life" get steel.
I have ti and steel so no bias here.
If the ti bikes get damaged I can't afford to fix them. If the steel does, I can, and will.

Why would anyone want a bike for life? So many things change as the years go by. I still have my steel frame from my first mountain bike (1991). No way would I build it up into a bike for any kind of meaningful riding.

[i]Is this still the case? Should I avoid ordering a made in the UK from one of the specialists? [/i]

I've a nice, custom fit, hand made in the UK, Ti frame. I figure anything over 20 years will be a bonus.

My cheap, Taiwanese26" hardtail is still going strong after 8 years or so. My Van Nicholas Amazon has several thousand miles of use under its wheels. My new Burls 29er is already racking up the miles. I reckon you've as much chance of a dodgy Ti frame as any other material - just stay away from that US manufacturer whose name begins with L.

A Google images search for "cracked titanium frame" should answer your question.
See if you can guess which one is mine. 😛

just stay away from that US manufacturer whose name begins with L.

I had a frame from the manufacturer beginning with L ,kind of hence the question

I't hasn't put me off just the £ to VFM ration.

I'd say that original adage was always misinterpreted. Ti frames were so expensive compared with the 531 or worse most folks rode it was a bike for life because you had to spent your life's toy money up buying the damn thing!

[i]I't hasn't put me off just the £ to VFM ration. [/i]

For me, cost wasn't the primary consideration. I didn't want a [i]cheap[/i] Ti frame, I wanted a custom made Ti frame and was prepared to accept that these two factors are mutually exclusive, imo.

Aye - still not cheap but my custom Burls cost less than Salsa wanted for an equivalent El Mariachi frame [i]at trade[/i]

[i]Why would anyone want a bike for life? So many things change as the years go by. I still have my steel frame from my first mountain bike (1991). No way would I build it up into a bike for any kind of meaningful riding. [/i]

This.

And

[i]Indeed, learnt this the hard way. Lynskey suck balls, fact. [/i]

Still have a Lynskey built 456Ti as my only bike - ridden 2-3 times per week and while the frame is still solid it has pretty much destroyed every component attached to it, more than once 🙂

And from a VFM point of view, very much value. £800 new and in its 7th year, so about the same cost as just paying for the servicing of a FS's shock/bearings etc, nevermind buying one (or more) in the first place.

My take, as someone who owns three ti frames, is that you buy Ti because you like the ride and the way it looks rather than because you believe it will outlive you. That said, like steel, it's repairable, it's just that it's harder to do because the process of welding titanium requires specialist equipment and skills.

As far as Lynskey goes, I cracked my Ragley Ti, they fixed it under warranty, twice, which is another story, but ultimately I'm happy.

Ti isn't indestructible, it's not cheap, and it's fiddly to repair, but it does ride nicely. But bikes for life? I'm not sure they really exist.

for those with nice Ti frames in 26er guise and a few yrs old, do you reckon you will be able to get forks and wheels in 3 or 4 yrs time ? genuine question

^ that is a valid question, my m8 Merlin ti frame is lovely (1 1/8 headset) but what going to happen when he can't get a 'nice' set of forks in few years time?
Also in all honesty a 29er would probably suit him better, so his 26er 'bike for life', is a leash too.
Stuff changes to fast for a bike for life IMO, just get a nice bike, if you can afford a Ti, then do it but don't expect it to last forever*

*Ok a rigid bike might fit the description better but who the hell (in their right mind [IMO of course]) wants a rigid bike as the bike for life?

[i]for those with nice Ti frames in 26er guise and a few yrs old, do you reckon you will be able to get forks and wheels in 3 or 4 yrs time ? genuine question [/i]

Well, mine's a road frame. However, why couldn't one use 29" forks with a 26" wheel, if required?

As for the wheels themselves, there's plenty of cycling exotica, from yester-year still knocking around and folk still finds parts.
I do not foresee a problem sticking with my 26" wheeled MTB.

Wheels? I don't think 26" rims are going to disappear any time soon so I can build what I want from those.

Forks: with tapered steelers and different wheel sizes, this could become an issue but how often do you actually have to buy a new set of forks? I have some SIDs and a set of Pace rigids that should see me fine.

If the feel of ti is important go for it but if I want reliable durability it's steel every time. All frames can be broken though. Where steel wins over ti for me is in its toughness.
Would I avoid a uk made ti bike? No, and I've got a fairly pricey ti bike. But I'd want to feel confident that they would stand behind the product in a way I was happy with.

Van Nicholas have a new fatbike frame coming out. I might just "need" it...

iainc

for those with nice Ti frames in 26er guise and a few yrs old, do you reckon you will be able to get forks and wheels in 3 or 4 yrs time ? genuine question

Consider that probably 99% of mountainbikes ever made over maybe a 30 year period have 26" wheels. The pre installed user base dwarfs the other wheel sizes.

And even if the major players decided to ignore the size in order to part more fools from their hard earned, there would soon be smaller manufacturers springing up to cater for this "niche".

Remember the first time you heard about fat bikes? Well someone, somewhere was making parts for them. Remember when 650b was just some obscure crackpot tweener size? Well you could still get parts for them. You can still get tyres for 50 year old wheel sizes so my answer would be yes, I think you'll get parts for them.

nice Ti bikes are nice to have. I have one from 1994 that I still ride and if you work out the number of rides/miles I've had out of it, its a bargain. I've had it repaired and yes getting it done cost a fair amount but after 20 years its one of the family and the price per mile still leaves it as a bargain.

As for new changes to design, sure they keep coming and the marketing blurb always tells you something is better, but to be blunt a bike is just a bike. Shut up and ride.

I've got a 10 year old aluminium Cannondale road bike, it's probably the same weight as a Ti frame, and I'll probably keep it indefinately, does that ironicaly make early 2000's era aluminium cannondales bikes for life?

I suspect like most bikes it wont be mechanical failure that kills it off, it'll be continuous improvements in new bikes and standards (BB30, tapered forks, disk brakes and 600g off the frame/fork weight, yes please!)

Simple thing is that your next bike is the bike for life.
With an industry shaking itself around I'd hold off a bold choice for a year ago.

Neither of my Lynskey frames broke. Another ti one did. Ti is nice to own but like others have said, why would you want a bike for life - unless you're already in your 80s.

like others have said, why would you want a bike for life - unless you're already in your 80s.

It's just a rubbish cliche that people bring out to beat ti frames with. If you think about it, it's complete bobbins anyway, what does 'life' mean when you might be run over by a speeding Audi tomorrow or live for another 50 years. My heart sinks every time someone drags the phrase out like a rusty Fiesta that's been sat on someone's driveway for 20 years.

Just complete nonsense 😐

Quite how you define 'life' in this context is another discussion, but I'd never want to 'invest' in a bike with any sort of sense of obligation that I had to keep it indefinitely because it was my "bike for life" or whatever.

Yes things may settle down and technology may not change as much in the future, but if it does then you'll be left with something you may not enjoy as much.

Going into a bike purchase with a predetermined idea of how long you'll have it is a sure fire way not to enjoy the bike IMO!

I have a brand new Cove Hummer 650b for sale 😉 Should last until the next wheel size change!

Seven

And even if the major players decided to ignore the size in order to part more fools from their hard earned, there would soon be smaller manufacturers springing up to cater for this "niche".

If you have (as said a Merlin XLM for example) a lightweight XC frame with 26" wheels and straight 1.125" forks try and find me some suitable top end replacements now? They're getting rarer and rarer already. Of course they'll never disappear altogether, the market's huge, but choice is definitely dwindling hugely.

Should I avoid ordering a made in the UK from one of the specialists?

who's making Ti frames here in the UK?

2008 Cotic Soda here - still going strong and still looks brand new despite regularly being thrown down things it probably wasn't designed to be thrown down.

bike for life - I hope so as its the best Iv ever owned

26" Wheels
QR axle
1,1'8 headset
27.2 seat tube

...but the geometry was ahead of its time (long top tube, short stays, compact frame, good stand over, relaxed angles.

No reason to change frames just to conform with the latest standards

Enigma still built custom frames in the U.K

No regrets at all re purchasing my 456EVO Ti.
Taper headset; 30.9 seatpost; 26" wheels but that's absolutely fine. Can't see any reason to change it for a good few years yet.... but "bike for life" is an ambitious claim indeed.

who's making Ti frames here in the UK?

I am well at least It seems like a good idea to go back to doing what I originally did 18 years ago when I worked in the USA ,Titanium which was followed by Carbon (a lot of people don't know that) but its what I learned to build frames out of and its one of my favourite materials to work with, this whole thread is why it's not worth arguing about materials ,people like to have a choice

convert - Member
I'd say that original adage was always misinterpreted. Ti frames were so expensive compared with the 531 or worse most folks rode it was a bike for life because you had to spent your life's toy money up buying the damn thing!

This...

I don't actually think Titanium is the "Best" material for a bike frame to be made from, it's not terrible but there are lighter materials and more durable/stronger materials available at lower cost, boring but rational...

A Titanium frame is really a "Heart over Head" choice IMO, if you can be honest with yourself about that, drop the "Frame for life" justification and you still find you just really want one still, then just get it... scratch the itch if you can afford to.

Yep - a Bike for life...its marketing cliche - for justifing a large spend...

Never really rated ti tbh always thought it was overpriced and a tad boring..

The whole Ti frame being a frame for life might have been the case 25ish years ago when the term was coined but not today. BITD. We weren't hammering our frames off 4 foot drops and other obstacles at trail centres and the likes. So back then compared to what we were riding back then a Ti frame would have lasted forever. Nowadays it would need to be a very well frame to last forever. Plus be built from top grade Titanium as not all titanium is equal. If the frame is cheap for example from XACD then there's every chance this is recycled Titanium and thus contains impurities within the metal which can lead to failure of the frame. Your top brand custom designers always use top quality Titanium. And by top designers I'm talking Kent Eriksen, Moots, Indy Fab, Seven, Crisp, Black Sheep, DeKerf etc etc. I would much sooner spend the money on a top quality steel frame than a cheaper Titanium frame.

that is a valid question, my m8 Merlin ti frame is lovely (1 1/8 headset) but what going to happen when he can't get a 'nice' set of forks in few years time?

Very valid question - I changed the fork on my Kobe Ti, still going strong after 8 years or more of service - but actually finding a decent 1 1/8 fork wasn't that easy, particularly as I'm still runnning QR9 wheels.

I've got some brand new Rebas 1 1/8th and QR9 for sale 😉

It's just a rubbish cliche that people bring out to beat ti frames with

I would quite like a Ti frame, have wanted one since forever, just don't want to pay anywhere near Ti rrp for one 😕

Never really rated ti tbh always thought it was overpriced and a tad boring..

That's bizarre I sit at the other end of the spectrum apart from the advantages you can get stiffness wise I think steel is a bit mleh and boring,

I've owned my '98 Hei Hei since new. Of course it's a bike for life, what on earth could replace something I love more than my first born?

Never really rated ti tbh always thought it was overpriced and a tad boring..

I think steel is a bit mleh and boring

*IANAMaterials scientist
**completely independent of how much it actually costs to manufacture

My experience of Ti frames suggests, just like with a steel frame, it's all about the tubes & the builder. Use silly thin (but super light) tubing...maybe you'll get a nice "compliant" (flexy) ride, but don't be surprised when it breaks. Having been down that road in the past (along with quite a few other people 😉 ), my current custom Ti frame is just about the stiffest MTB I've ever ridden due to being designed to not break.

Mine hasn't broken since the last of these threads, I always count that a small victory.

[quote=Northwind ]Mine hasn't [s]broken[/s] been ridden since the last of these threads
FTFY

Ti Bontrager cracked seat tube
Kona Hei Hei stolen from car
Litespeed Road bike cracked seat stays

Bike for life?

Steel is better?
Kona Unit cracked top tube in front of seat tube.

All bikes break it how long they last depends on material quality, good design, and the weight

to misquote Keith Bontrager Light,Cheap strong pick one.

scotroutes - Member

FTFY

Why you bounder! It does several miles a week.

I get the feeling there's 2 main reasons ti frames don't last like people expect them to do. 1 is that everyone wants a light one so they tend to get built to a target. The other is that Lynskey don't know what they're doing but can sell their frames for a fortune anyway so aren't that bothered.

[i]I don't actually think Titanium is the "Best" material for a bike frame to be made from,[/i]
I don't think anyone is claiming Ti is [i]The Best[/i] but it certainly has unique and worthy properties. As light as Aluminium, as strong as steel. Yes, you get frames in steel or aluminium too, but you get both qualities in Ti.

[i]it's not terrible but there are lighter materials and more durable/stronger materials available at lower cost, boring but rational... [/i]
Which materials are you thinking of, specifically?

[i]A Titanium frame is really a "Heart over Head" choice IMO, if you can be honest with yourself about that, drop the "Frame for life" justification and you still find you just really want one still, then just get it... scratch the itch if you can afford to. [/i]

It really wasn't a heart over head decision, quite the reverse actually. I didn't want the corrosion issues of Ali or steel, nor do I want the weight or harshness issues of steel or aluminium. So in my case, it was quite a practical conclusion to buy Ti, esp when you throw in a custom fit.

As for the so called cliche being a frame for life, etc. I think those posting such comments are missing a fundamental point. Having a comfortable frame, free from potentially terminal corrosion, to take you along the road for decades, until you become utterly famliiar with the entire experience of riding, [b]your[/b] bike. Is why a long lasting frame will provide you with a different level of ownership experience.
I've got an Ali frame, over 10 years old, structurally, it appears to be sound, but the bike has now been retired. I've just purchased a steel frame, which I look forward to using.

Nowt wrong with Ti:
[img] [/img]

Nowt wrong with Ti:

Great Plane - Not still flying though so not a "plane for life"

In service 1966 to 1999. If I got 33 years out a Ti frame I'd be happy and those I have would outlive my ability to ride them 😀

Interesting I was just thinking this as I rode my 2002 Airborne Lancaster to the local shops. Tends to get as used as a general runabout and tourer now, but it has outlived every other bike I have owned - I usually change bikes every year or two but the Airborne just soldiers on. It is still the lightest mountain bike I have and looks in pretty good nick.

I am genuinely impressed with the Titus Fireline I have, I have another Ti frame which has several issues that I have never experienced before & I just put it down to the material, I have also owned other Ti frames, none of which matched my expectations of my favourite frame which was an ally old skool round tube Stiffee. So what I'm getting at? (and I'm not in anyway saying that the Titus is good/the best) is that you can have good/bad bikes in any material, it's how you interpret them that counts.

Cheers.

I think my Cotic Soul is probably fairly close to a bike for life, especially now my full-sus has taken on uplifted, gnarr and enduro racing duties so it isn't being ragged so hard in the summer. I'm sure it'll crack at some point but it'll weld back fine, it's steel! And it has the kind of geometry that lends itself well to all sorts of uses - maybe it'll be a 700c skinny tired faux CX commuter one day? Right now it's being great as a big tyred 140mm hardtail.

I'm selling a Van Nicholas road bike to be replaced by a Genesis Equilibrium (the low end one).

It rides better IMO.

My ti frame is 1lb lighter than the Soul it replaced, just as compliant, if not more so...and has none of the disc brake dig into the chainstay either.

After a 5-6 hour side I don't feel beaten up like I have done with alu frames after 2-3 hours (where I can't hardly walk the next day).

Yes it's expensive but a good investment for the heart, head and arse!

Saved for ages to get a Stanton ti and the craftsmanship is simply stunning...and a lot cheaper than a Kona or Cove ti too.

I still don't believe this compliancy stuff having ridden plenty of steel bikes.

Someone mentioned on another thread that it was like having 15mm of rear travel, if that was the case, your frame would be flexing/deflecting in the vertical by 15mm. LOL.

Compared to alu IMO, steel and ti is much better (not 15mm travel better..that's just bollocks).

I thought my Soul was awesome, but was slightly too steep and a bit too long...but Jesus did the rear chainstay take a beating with the disc because of the flex.

This ti frame is lighter, slacker and feels just as good as the Soul...but with no chainstay damage. Running the same wheels, tyre model and pressures too.

http://www.englishcycles.com/design-philosophy/

What are the options for a Ti road frame with a chain stay rear disc mount? I was considering the Lynskey cross frame. I'm looking for a reliable workhorse commuter (previously owned an Airborne Carpe Diem which did daily commuting duty for 9 years until it developed a terminal crack).

My ti full sus has five inches of travel in the frame, no pivots and is an awesome xc animal - Ibis BowTi.

When I first bought a ti hard tail I came from a steel hard tail and if I am honest, they rode similar but the ti was lighter and way more responsive, it just sort of felt more alive yet remained quick and rigid when you had to sprint. Whats not to like.

[i]What are the options for a Ti road frame with a chain stay rear disc mount?[/i]

I think Enigma do something like that. Having dealt personally with Mark Reilly, I'd be happy to buy from Enigma.

[img] ?v=1409175003[/img]
Etape Disc.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Someone mentioned on another thread that it was like having 15mm of rear travel, if that was the case, your frame would be flexing/deflecting in the vertical by 15mm. LOL.

I suppose it [i]could[/i] be, on a particular frame. On mine it's nothing like that, more like the difference in 10psi in a fat rear tyre. (I swapped the alu version of my frame for a ti one) Which is still a lot, and well worthwhile. TBH I wish mine was a bit softer, like my Soda was.

I've got three Ti bikes, A Cove Hummer, a Kinesis Sync and a Kinesis Tripster ATR.

I don't try to justify it, I just like the way they feel!

[i]I don't try to justify it[/i]

Married?

Still rolling on this obsolete old thing.
[URL= http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g341/kiwijohn42/784501fb.jp g" target="_blank">http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g341/kiwijohn42/784501fb.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
DBR Axis TT built by Sandvik.
19 years old this year. Rebuilt 7 years ago when you could still get a good fork with V brake mounts & decent wheels. 10kg all up & still the fastest bike I own.

I used the 'rust/shelf life'...and you got an amazing engagement ring argument to justify my frame. She still didn't pay for it mind you 🙁

Yeah I'm married Solo, unlike some on here I don't need to hide my bike purchases though 8)

Cheers, just realised I mistyped my original message; it's a seat stay disk mount frame I'm after.

Hmmm, Thing is the A12/SR71 had a slightly different set of performance requirements to a Bicycle frame...

Titanium was chosen primarily because an aluminium airframe and leading edges would have melted at high mach and Steel would have carried a ~30% weight penalty, I don't think Lockheed were all that concerned about trail buzz TBH...

Like I said I don't see it as the "Best" choice of material, but it's not the worst, it's certainly adequate if cost isn't a concern...

I just don't buy the "bike for life" claims, But I'm not the one spending the money, if you think you'll still be riding it in 30-40 odd years then good for you...

from a structural/manufacturing perspective I'd say Ti has long been superseded by Composites in all sorts of areas, but that doesn't carry the Cachet or exclusivity does it...

[i]hummerlicious - Member
Yeah I'm married Solo, unlike some on here I don't need to hide my bike purchases though.[/i]
Good for you, and I'm sure those who do have to "negotiate" for bikes and parts, are just as happily married.
🙂

[i]Hmmm, Thing is the A12/SR71 had a slightly different set of performance requirements to a Bicycle frame... [/i]
You obviously haven't seen me ride a bike. Although since shattering all the windows in my town on one occassion, I've decided to stop cycling at Mach 3.
😉

[i]Like I said I don't see it as the "Best" choice of material[/i]
And I don't think anyone has claimed that, AFAIK, which we established on page 2.

[i]I just don't buy the "bike for life" claims, But I'm not the one spending the money, if you think you'll still be riding it in 30-40 odd years then good for you... [/i]
Again, while I see your point, I've tried to point out that it's more that just how long a piece of metal lasts. It's about how you go along, with your bike, how you get use to it, the experiences you have while riding it and the longer your bike lasts, the better all that gets. If you're aware of it. There a loads of folk who love their old bike, because it's been their long term ride. This doesn't exclude other frame material though, so long as they last.

[i]from a structural/manufacturing perspective I'd say Ti has long been superseded by Composites in all sorts of areas, but that doesn't carry the Cachet or exclusivity does it...[/i]
Ok, well that's a kind of half answer to my question. Reason I asked was, just like lockhead, when one measures weight, performance and cost. They usual score two. As with the SR71, it was light and durable, but cost was a bitch.
So it goes with bikes. Light weight usually excludes low cost and may not be a guarantee of durability. Likewise, Carbon is strong but also very expensive and not necessarily durable. But you can include Ti there too if you wish as I agree that it does fall over on cost. But hey-ho, you pays your money.
🙂

I still don't believe this compliancy stuff having ridden plenty of steel bikes

Ti tubing is about the same diameter as steel. Rigidity is determined by tube diameter and weight by material. So the only difference between a steel and Ti frame is the weight. Everything else is geometry. I still like Ti frames, especially the finish, but my carbon road bike trounces the Ti one it replaced on every count except shininess 😉 .

If I upgraded my Genesis IO to Ti, I do not expect to feel any difference in handling, only weight. Now the Ibis Bow Ti - that was special (until I rode one).

Rigidity is determined by tube diameter

Ti tubing is about the same diameter as steel.

It's not though, is it - it's slightly oversized usually in comparison to steel. Which given the cube property of stiffness...

And don't forget that stiffness isn't the only consideration. How about strength/elasticity?

What happens if a material is inherently stronger for a given weight?

You could, I'm sure, make a carbon bike that exactly duplicated the ride and feel of my ti bike. Good chance it'd be lighter too, and it could probably be more durable. But... Titanium's just really nice, isn't it? It looks like a bike, not a bar of soap... it shines up nicely (brush it then oil it, mmmmmmmm).

Why would anyone want a bike for life? So many things change as the years go by. I still have my steel frame from my first mountain bike (1991). No way would I build it up into a bike for any kind of meaningful riding.

What's "meaningful"? My '93 steel Marin is in daily use for commuting - I reckon that if you want a bike for long-term ownership, adaptability is the key.

A Brooks saddle then, maybe? 🙂

Ti rails of course.

save us from 'meaningful riding' though ffs 😕

Since no-one else has mentioned it, I think, there's a piece in a recent - current? - What Mountain Bike about the future of frame-building materials and one point was that metal and titanium in particular, is ideal for use with 3D printing processes, so it may just be less moribund than some would have you believe.

Also interesting was the idea that with 3D printing you could create slightly complex shapes, like head tubes, without introducing potential weaknesses like welds and with more control over profiles, shape, thicknesses etc, so you could, at last create a real 'bike for life'…

I actually made up that last bit, but I thought it was interesting that new manufacturing technologies could potentially also change the way we use existing materials. And of course 3D-printed ti will be dirt cheap, like paper, which is also printed...