[Closed] Titanium frame needed; custom or off the peg?

I had a call this afternoon from someone assuming [i]bartyp[/i] was me. Which made me chuckle.

Colin - your #pact bike looks awesome, and was great fun to design. Thanks for giving us a chance. It's much appreciated.

My winter (off the peg) hack (Slackline):

[img] ?oh=62979d20cb1f72f85eedda43ef939a7f&oe=56DFDE99[/img]

scotroutes, that looks ace, what actual colour is it? can't work out if it's green or just reflecting the cables.

looks great, love it 😀

bartyp has a nerve

It's my thread about my future bike! 😀

I had a call this afternoon from someone assuming bartyp was me. Which made me chuckle.

Really? How funny! 😆

Whether it now feels like a bit of a set up marketing thread as an aside....

I'm beginning to admire Pact's use of stealth marketing... 😉

Is Ti harder to work with (shape tubes, weld etc) to a high level than steel? I'm sure I read somewhere a while back of the likes of Engin ensuring a super clean environment so the welds aren't contaminated. Or is that just a myth in my noggin.

Titanium fabricators I've spoken to have mentioned the need to a clean environment, so I'd say it's not a myth. I find it encouraging when a frame builder talks to me about stuff of which I have no knowledge, because it shows that they are dedicated professionals and serious about doing a proper job.

Meanwhile, less talking and a bit more action results in this..

A far-eastern made frame. Looks nice, I wish you health to enjoy it.

http://www.ing.unitn.it/~colombo/telai/approfondimenti_sul_titanio.htm

I find it encouraging when a frame builder talks to me about stuff of which I have no knowledge, because it shows that they are dedicated professionals and serious about doing a proper job.

But that's not the case when designers talk to you about stuff of which you have no knowledge? 🙂

Not when those 'designers' don't actually know how to build frames themselves, no.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm sure you'll agree that I'm perfectly entitled to that opinion.

Do you think the architect that designed The Shard started as a brickie or does your opinion only stretch to bicycle frames?

Do you think the architect that designed The Shard started as a brickie or does your opinion only stretch to bicycle frames?

That's irrelevant. If bartyp wants to follow pure process in this way he's entitled.

I think it's quite lovely.

It's a pure experience.

Titchmarsh bikes look cool. I was just googling about him and his dad.

Of course, the thing that aggrieved me a tiny bit (which is kind of overstating things anyway) about the Titchmarsh winning the Bespoked award was that it was largely a collection of Paragon Machine Works parts welded together nicely with some tubing in the middle. The front brake hose routing is neat though. And that blue is lovely.

It's not Dan's fault it won though. And it's a lovely looking bike. But when there are people out there who make their own frame parts, and they get beaten by someone who didn't, it makes me question the voting process and stuff. But then you can say that for all awards of course.

[i]Not when those 'designers' don't actually know how to build frames themselves, no.[/i]

I'll bet Issigonis could work a press to make a wing, and then weld it onto the sub frame, but what that has to do with designing a world changing car I'm not sure.

Edited : removed unnecessarily rude bit

You're entitled to your opinion, it's a bit daft, but your welcome to hold it.

Seems a bit rude.

Very good Scotroutes; your trolling skills are improving! 😀

Difference is, that the architect is part of an overall team who have different roles involved in the construction of a building. So it's a collaborative effort (although the architect tends to take the credit).

But in the context of this thread, when someone is offering 'advice' on building a frame, I expect them to have at least some actual experience in doing so.

[i]But in the context of this thread, when someone is offering 'advice' on building a frame, I expect them to have at least some actual experience in doing so. [/i]

[head wall interface]

so a bicycle frame cannot be designed and built by a collaborative team who have different skills, experience and roles?

[/head wall interface]

so a bicycle frame cannot be designed and built by a collaborative team who have different skills, experience and roles?

I'm pretty sure a designer, welder and painter were all involved in producing mine...

But in the context of this thread, when someone is offering 'advice' on building a frame, I expect them to have at least some actual experience in doing so

I'm unclear as to why you're posting on a forum for recreational mountainbikers then, and not professional framebuilders?

Of course, the thing that aggrieved me a tiny bit (which is kind of overstating things anyway) about the Titchmarsh winning the Bespoked award was that it was largely a collection of Paragon Machine Works parts welded together nicely with some tubing in the middle. The front brake hose routing is neat though. And that blue is lovely.

It's not Dan's fault it won though. And it's a lovely looking bike. But when there are people out there who make their own frame parts, and they get beaten by someone who didn't, it makes me question the voting process and stuff. But then you can say that for all awards of course.

Dan's bike was commissioned by a customer who specified certain parts. Dan can make custom dropouts and all sorts, if required.

Dan also won an award for this:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

I think he deserves some credit.

I think he deserves some credit.

The thing is, if I was to say that I don't care what you think as you have never made a or designed a frame, so your comments on whether he needs credit or not, to me, are irrelevant, you'd think I was mean.

so a bicycle frame cannot be designed and built by a collaborative team who have different skills, experience and roles?

Of course. And in this case, I'm the 'designer'. Hence why I don't need a 'middle man'.

I'm unclear as to why you're posting on a forum for recreational mountainbikers then, and not professional framebuilders?

Fair point, although this does appear to be one of the most popular cycling forums. So I expected a greater response.

The thing is, if I was to say that I don't care what you think as you have never made a or designed a frame, so your comments on whether he needs credit or not, to me, are irrelevant, you'd think I was mean.

Not really. You're just some random bod on the internet as far as I'm concerned. No offence. You've offered a great deal more insight than some others though, I will say that.

[i]Seems a bit rude.[/i]

yeah you're probably right, I'll change it

[i] I'm the 'designer'.[/i]

You're really not.

You're providing a list of requirements, not 'designing'.

You're really not.

No, I really am. In a similar way that Brant is. I will be specifying particular unique aspects of the bike's design.That makes me it's 'designer'.

If I had chosen another route, sutch as an off the peg frame, or a Pact/travers bike, then you'd be right.

No, I really am. In a similar way that Brant is.

No. Not in a similar way to me, at all.

This thread is great! Many skilled and great names in the bike industry getting shot down by some delusional keyboard warrior with no experience 😆 .

So how are you so different? Please explain.

Many skilled and great names in the bike industry getting shot down by some keyboard warrior with no experience

Please point out where this has actually happened?

I'm merely of a different opinion to others, about the potential construction of a bicycle frame for myself. Ultimately, only my opinion matters. I am happy for others to challenge me on this, and to offer their own input, and I might even take some of it on board. But I'm confident of being able to achieve what I want, so i'm happy to continue as I am. I'm not forcing others to offer any input, merely inviting them to do so. If this results in a debate, so be it. I don't have an issue with that, and neither does Brant, by the looks of things.

As for 'experience'; you have no idea what experience I have. So how can you possibly comment on this? 😕

[i]No, I really am. In a similar way that Brant is.[/i]

Do you understand what brant/travers/cotic do when they design a frame and commission someone to build it?

Sorry that was rhetorical, the answer is clearly 'no'.

Of course, the thing that aggrieved me a tiny bit (which is kind of overstating things anyway) about the Titchmarsh winning the Bespoked award was that it was largely a collection of Paragon Machine Works parts welded together nicely with some tubing in the middle. The front brake hose routing is neat though. And that blue is lovely.

I was with you up to that point. I understand your sentiments and also find the Bespoked judging a bit random.

But after his award winning cargo bike of 2013, Mr Titchmarsh had nothing to prove - that featured quite a bit more engineering (e.g. hub centre steering) than cutting out a pair of dropouts. And the unpainted and unfiled build left nowhere for poor workmanship to hide.

I was also exhibiting my sorry excuses for steel tubed garage bodgery at that show (with no Paragon in sight - all my own dropouts etc) and his was the one bike that stood out over everything else. I kept sneaking back just to stare and spot some other little detail. Real shame I never got to have a chat with him.

But after his award winning cargo bike of 2013, Mr Titchmarsh had nothing to prove - that featured quite a bit more engineering than cutting out a pair of dropouts. And the unpainted and unfiled build left nowhere for poor workmanship to hide

I thought the cargo bike was absolutely fantastic. I still do. It's an amazing ground up innovative hewn from bare-metal creation. It's brilliant.

This thread is great! Many skilled and great names in the bike industry getting shot down by some delusional keyboard warrior with no experience .

I can't believe I took the bait.

Fair point, although this does appear to be one of the most popular cycling forums. So I expected a greater response.

It seems to me that you've got the hump because we haven't all fallen over ourselves in the rush to tickle your tummy.

Barty must have posted whilst I was writing that ^

Hope he enjoys his bike. Will check back next month (this thread seems to wake up every 4 weeks for some reason).

There's a lot of ugly in this thread and I don't just mean that weird dropout up there...

Do you understand what brant/travers/cotic do when they design a frame and commission someone to build it?

Sorry that was rhetorical, the answer is clearly 'no'.

I'd imagine they start with an idea, use their experience of such things to work out what is actually feasible, examine any options, think carefully about any issues, do some sketches, maybe even some 3-D computer stuff. Have a think about how the end user will experience the product. Possibly do some 'market research'. Then approach a suitable manufacturer/s and discuss how to realise their designs. And I'd imagine they would probably need to produce some prototypes in order to gain real-world knowledge of something (at this point I admit I am different, as there will only be one 'prototype'). They may then go away and refine the design.

They might even use a discussion forum online, to talk to others about stuff.

Am I that far off the mark?

Sorry that was rhetorical, the answer is clearly 'no'.

[i]Am I that far off the mark? [/i]

yep.

their experience

And that's the other point.

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/custom-ti-frame-thoughts ]This what an amateur 'designer' can do.. [/url]. I'd love to compare your efforts of 'designing'..
What you are doing is sending a requirement to a builder who will then use their experience and knowledge to pull together the spec and build the frame. You can't warrant what you are doing as 'designing' and comparing yourself to Brant and others is laughable 😀 .

I'd imagine

yes, there we go, the route of all the problems in this thread.

It's easy to think you're right when a large chunk of your information is from your own imagination.

I'd love to compare your efforts of 'designing'..

Actually, I really must go and carry on with a commission I'm doing for someone. And then sit down later and 'design' another piece that someone else has commissioned. Not related to bikes sadly, but I won't ask you to reciprocate. I don't need to prove my credentials on here, as I'm not selling anything on this forum (as advertising would be against forum rules 😉 ).

It's easy to think you're right when a large chunk of your information is from your own imagination.

I say 'imagination'; it's actually experience of being involved in the design and production of a range of products and services, from jewellery, ornaments and furniture, to elements of graphic design, as well as some photography. Possibly different in terms of actual processes, but I have a rudimentary grasp of the process of designing and manufacturing things. 😀

Not quite sure what you imagined that I imagined.

As I said; time to go and make stuff. See you all later.

That load carrier is fantastic. Just throwing that out there, from someone else who actually does this kind of thing for a living.

The exposed metal is stainless steel: ‘They use a lot of salt on the roads in Sweden,’ says Titchmarsh, ‘I didn’t want any rusting.’

How well do you understand stainless steel, if you think it is corrosion resistant in salt solution?

Is it too late for a rewrite for this here film STW are producing? I've discounted Brant's input into the story based on this thread. What about those halfwits who 'designed' the early Saracens, what about Orange?

There's loads of UK MTB industry stalwarts out there, this is a perfect opportunity to put them in their place.

🙄

Films about framebuilding always have to have a framebuilder with a beard and tattoos. It's the law.

Good point. OP, what's your beard and tattoo status?

The OP isn't the framebuilder, he's the plucky young visionary that all the old farts laugh at, until he's proved right in the end in a heartwarming scene.

Not too late Picton:

£3500 GBP
The 'Designer' (literally)

PERK: YOUR NAME as EXEC DESIGNER on a single slate in the opening titles of the film. You can rewrite up to 4 narratives of the story, based on people's jobs, PLUS bespoke ti frame, (in a custom colour of your choice), complete with Fox Float DPS EVOL Shock RRP £1700! 5 x Annual Print and Digital Subscriptions to Singletrack magazine (Jan '16).

I'd recommend a frame builder for you, but I like them so I won't......

"Maybe even 140mm disc on the rear"

As soon as I read that I knew you didn't know what you were taking about.... obviously never ridden a laden bike!!

bartyp, could you design me a pie chart? Won't take a moment for a man of your vision...

I'd be looking for someone who's designed, built and eaten one nemesis.

Came here from the other thread, and just can't help myself.

I will be specifying particular unique aspects of the bike's design.That makes me it's 'designer'.

Sorry but while you may feel that way, almost everyone, including myself will disagree.

It's often the title used by art or fashion based industries that a person who comes up with a concept or brief is "the designer" and god knows there's lots of people whose skills in sports get drawn upon for design influence who too, claim they were designers.

But in the context of creating a product, be it in the leisure industry or otherwise, if your only contribution to a product is the brief then you're a customer (a title that applies to both a company or person asking for a product to be developed and the end consumer) and you still need a design engineer, someone who can take a set of requirements and develop a design that not only meets the requirements laid out by the customer but also meets the requirements laid out by any governing body (industry dependant, think CE marking, CEN tests etc.) and also requirements for manufacturing. Ti is an excellent example as the difficulties involved in welding will have an impact on the final frame design.

Then (and I'm speaking generally here) you'll have another person/company who takes the finalised design and manufactures it. So while you could take a rough design to a manufacturer, and they can offer advice on what works and what doesn't, the responsibility of ensuring that what you've drawn up is feasible does not lie with them. I've seen classic cases of this where someone has sent a one-off quick design to a fabricators only to find that what they'd drawn failed a few weeks later due to design oversight, but that didn't stop the fabricators from making it for them.

The blurred lines come in where people model their businesses differently, lots of smaller firms will have one man/team responsibly for both design brief and execution, outsourcing manufacturing to another party be it within their own organisation or externally.

Some companies (or consumers) might say "We/I want a new bicycle to sell under our name/custom made for me) and outsource both design and manufacture. [i]This is you, nothing wrong with it mind.[/i]

Some really small outfits do everything, but rarely will it be one person doing every aspect, there's just not enough hours in the day to make it profitable.

Some really small outfits do everything, but rarely will it be one person doing every aspect, there's just not enough hours in the day to make it profitable.

It can be profitable enough to make a reasonable living, the trick is to be selective of customers! Sometimes I just fabricate designs that people bring to me, but much more often I get involved in making the design workable, and often designing the bike from scratch to a brief.

The one thing I think that is common among projects I turn down is that the customer doesn't know what they want. By that I don't mean that they don't know the details of a design, or even the basics of an idea, I mean that they don't know why they want the bike and what it's for.

Oh, hold on. I know someone like that. I'll pass your details on to him, ben 😉

It can be profitable enough to make a reasonable living

Good to hear!

I suppose in 2015 it's still tough to decide whether discs or v brakes will be the future. It's just so tough for one man to conceive, specify, design and build a bike these days what with progress and all.

Blimey. You go out for a ride and this nonsense kicks off again...

Delusional...

I'll piss my pants if poor old Titchmarsh ends up with this job from hell 🙂

[quote="dragon"]

The exposed metal is stainless steel: ‘They use a lot of salt on the roads in Sweden,’ says Titchmarsh, ‘I didn’t want any rusting.’

The irony of it is, they don't even use a huge amount of salt in Sweden anymore, they haven't for a good few years. Mainly as it doesn't work very well.

It's been making a resurgence the last few years, specifically on cyclepaths. They've started using special sweepers (originating from Denmark) that break up and scrape away snow and ice and then spray the cleared surface with a strong salt-solution. They're quite effective, but require some amount of extra maintenance on the part of the cyclists.

Is this your design bartyp?

[img] [/img]

Top job btw 😀

This is a brilliant thread, I don't think I've ever felt sorry for Brant before... nicely judged mix of smug superiority and an excellent side-dish of indignant offence taken if anyone dares question the OP's credentials.

I like the way he/it/she has stolen it's name from an author of home and gardening manuals:

[url= http://www.bartyphillips.com ]http://www.bartyphillips.com[/url]

Author of claasics like [url= http://www.buildersbook.com/050001812X.html ]Living With Carpets[/url], [url= https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-make-the-best-use-of-salvage/barty-philips/9781844680856 ]How to make the best Use of Salvage[/url] and the [url= http://www.arranalexander.co.uk/the-three-billy-goats-gruff-ladybird-book-well-loved-tales-series-606d-gloss-hardback-2965-p.asp ]Ladybird Book of Trolls[/url]...

Surely a different Barty though... same name, which is unusual, but... 😉

Your the designer.....aren't making a copy of your old frame and adding arty details to it?

I've just spent an enjoyable few minutes reading this thread. After reading it, posting this seems appropriate.

A narcissistic Personality Disorder is characterized by a long-standing pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), an overwhelming need for admiration, and usually a complete lack of empathy toward others. People with this disorder often believe they are of primary importance in everybody’s life or to anyone they meet. While this pattern of behavior may be appropriate for a king in 16th Century England, it is generally considered inappropriate for most ordinary people today.

People with narcissistic personality disorder often display snobbish, disdainful, or patronizing attitudes. For example, an individual with this disorder may complain about a clumsy waiter’s “rudeness” or “stupidity” or conclude a medical evaluation with a condescending evaluation of the physician.

In laypeople terms, someone with this disorder may be described simply as a “narcissist” or as someone with “narcissism.” Both of these terms generally refer to someone with narcissistic personality disorder.

A personality disorder is an enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates from the norm of the individual’s culture. The pattern is seen in two or more of the following areas: cognition; affect; interpersonal functioning; or impulse control. The enduring pattern is inflexible and pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations. It typically leads to significant distress or impairment in social, work or other areas of functioning. The pattern is stable and of long duration, and its onset can be traced back to early adulthood or adolescence.

Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
Requires excessive admiration
Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Hope that helps 🙂

300!

A narcissistic Personality Disorder

You missed out the bit where they snap and end up killing a few people if they feel overly challenged by them. They also assume they will get away with it because they are superior to others.

For someone who know's exactly what they want and is such a "designer" with half the parts already sat at home... this isn't half taking a long time. Goodness only knows how long a steel build would take if you had to choose a colour as well!

Those above symptoms don't just fit the curious Bartyp; they could easily describe many of the more prolific posters of this forum.

Aside from the obscure killing bit that Kerly wrote up there, obviously...

Aside from the obscure killing bit that Kerly wrote up there, obviously...

There's a new building site next to me - they're laying the concrete foundations today. Just saying.

@boblo I don't think there's any danger of that now.

Dan; stop wasting time with these idiots, and pick up the phone! 😆

@titch.Think of it less like an order lost.And more like your will to live,faith in humanity and sanity retained.

bartyp - Member

You're really not.

No, I really am. In a similar way that Brant is. I will be specifying particular unique aspects of the bike's design.That makes me it's 'designer'.

Awesome, thanks to this thread it turns I'm also a "designer" 😆

And not just around bike frames, having specified particular unique aspects of our recent central heating system, I guess I designed it too? Should I be paying myself design fees for my designs? Perhaps I should be charging the engineer?

I'm a designer and so is my wife.

@Rorachach Indeed.

http://www.audioenglish.org/dictionary/designer.htm

number 3?

Well, that took an unexpected turn! 😆

Looks like I've dodged a bullet here, and avoided a potentially very expensive mistake. So, thank you, Titchmarsh, for all your time and help.

I'm going to leave it there, as there's really no point in continuing this. I suggest others do the same.

Thanks.

Errrm, no. You don't get to call it off just cos you've suddenly realised the error(s) of your ways.... The errors people have been trying to help you with since the dawn of time (or so it seems).

Go on then, what happened? How did this great epiphany occur?

This chump reminds me of surfmat BTW, in a 'breathtaking arrogance meets zero interpersonal skills' kind of way.

Shit the bed I thought I was a mare for brant a few years back and more recently Mr shand (well I was actually I don't just think that ;)) but my god frame builders must be running from this thread

I'm going to leave it there, as there's really no point in continuing this. I suggest others do the same.

Encore!!!! Don't leave us, you were just getting started 😐

Think of it less like an order lost.And more like your will to live,faith in humanity and sanity retained.

Did someone point this out earlier in the thread and then get lambasted for being rude?

@boblo I told Barty to jog on is what happened. After he started that thread (taking our 'association' out of context) to 'support me' but I suspect get at brant. I didn't ask for this 'support' and I made it clear to Barty that Brant is not standing in the way of me building 15 or 20 bikes a year. In fact Philxx1975 is right in a way and I know that I need more bikes on show.

Alarm bells started to ring when during the phone conversation on monday with Barty I felt like he didn't really listen to me, he cut me off and talked over the top of me. He seemed more interested to talk about his 'community' projects than the bike and I could tell that there was some sort of proposition coming my way in the future: but not a commision for a bike. He admitted to me he has 'some history on that thread, I'll tell you about it later'. Then at the end of the conversation told me he had decided to go with Ted James anyway. Then the next day he spent writing the other thread, when instead he could have come up to York for a fitting session and a chat. He told me he doesn't have to work and feels guilty about how wealthy he is: some sort of millionaire man of leisure wind up merchant. This is out of character for me to talk publicly about one of my 'customers' but the guy has really pissed me off.

Wow.

Sorry to hear that.

Just keep making the nice bikes for nice people.

Just keep making the nice bikes for nice people

This thread just keeps giving. It's nice to see the STW collective supporting each other.

Titch, love your work and can't wait to see more creations 😀 ! Looks like your experience helped you identify this guy. Seems TJ wasn't so lucky..but he's nails so it should be okay.