[Closed] Ti V 853

953 ?

There really is not an intrinsic difference in ride between different materials.
Differences in how they ride are more down to the geometry and design than the materials. i.e it is possible to make a ti bike quite flexy, but it is probably not a good idea to design a Ti bike that flexes all over the place when you are climbing out of the saddle.

In terms of comfort, etc the difference is insignificant compared to e.g. changing tyre size by 0.2".

That said a Ti bike is for life not just for a season, for the extra money you get something slightly lighter, bombproof, and corrosion proof - no paintwork to worry about spoiling etc. These are tangible benefits which can be worth the extra £ especially if you are going to be riding it for 20+years.

[i]a Ti bike is for life not just for a season[/i]

although how many people are still riding 20 year old v-braked Ti frames as their 'go to' bike?

I think for a road bike the Ti route might be worth it as traditionally technology has changed so slowly but for MTB's there's less of an argument for longevity of the frame material being a key selling point.

although how many people are still riding 20 year old v-braked Ti frames as their 'go to' bike?

Raises hand! Actually I raced by 20 year old v-braked Ti frame bike around a national MTB championship yesterday. I may have crashed half way around the first lap and mangled my arm and knee a bit and finished quite far down the roster - but I got a few astonished looks and nods of approval as I was going round in amongst all the full sus carbon competitors so it was all worth it.

Get a Ti bike now and it can have disk mounts, if one is looking to buy a hardtail then they obviously want a hardtail rather than a full sus. There is no telling what innovations are going to happen over the next 20 years but there is no reason in particular why it wouldn't still be a decent hardtail in 20 years time.

Who makes a full 853 frame

You are one twisty - no one else did. I am a huge Ti fan but my current Ti hardtail is world's away from my old Ti of 10 years ago let alone 20 - wheel size,boost,tapered,double butted, discs,geometry, internal routing brakes and dropper etc etc

If you can afford it, look closely at Ti, for me personally, Ti has a fantastic feel to it with a hardtail. Ive ridden steel, alu and Ti. Assuming same geo etc, it will ride differently and I personally love the feel!

Advances in tube set design has meant that the old adage of harsh aluminium v more feel steel v Ti is diluted somewhat greatly these days but Ti is still a magical HT frame material

If you can afford it, I'd seriously consider the Ti.

I made the jump to a Ti hardtail last year as my main bike and have loved it. It replaced a steel Switchback and a Banshee Rune. The Switchback was 631 and fairly stiff (30.9mm seat tube, big head tube and bolt through rear end) but I was still happy riding it all day. The Ti version was a fair chunk lighter with quite a lot more 'spring' to it; it seemed to dull out a lot of the trail buzz but didn't feel too flexy when out of the saddle. In many ways it felt a bit like very old school steel frames.

That Ti was stolen and it has been replaced by the Mk II which feels a bit different and has a bit less feel to it.

I've only had one 853 bike - an old Stanton Slackline which had a 27.2mm seat tube, 135mm rear end and 1 1 /8th head tube. That bike was a revelation compared to the BFe that it replaced in terms of feel, zip and spring. The BFe always felt pretty dead, lifeless and stiff.

The elephant in the room for Ti is the price. Is my Ti Switchback three times better than the steel one that it replaced? Hmmmmmm. It's very hard to quantify and comes down to buying one because you want one. It is nicer to ride and at the end of the day, I've always wanted one.

philxx1975 - Member
Who makes a full 853 frame

This is a good point. Most frames which are branded as 853 have only a couple (at most) of tubes.

Having commuted for over a year on an 853 bike (Genesis Day One Alfine 11) and having swapped it for a an Aluminium Niner RLT, I can honestly say I'll never buy another steel hardtail. I've now got the Niner and a Ti Pickenflick. The pickenflick is undoubtedly comfier, but the Niner is much more responsive.

although how many people are still riding 20 year old v-braked Ti frames as their 'go to' bike?

I am.

[URL= http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g341/kiwijohn42/B7B258B9-B015-46C3-98E4-69A5F2E9AFAC_zps9jzlfrum.jp g" target="_blank">http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g341/kiwijohn42/B7B258B9-B015-46C3-98E4-69A5F2E9AFAC_zps9jzlfrum.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Weapon of choice, 95 DBR Axis TT. Still seriously fast.

although how many people are still riding 20 year old v-braked Ti frames as their 'go to' bike?

Amazingly, my Tinbred is nearly that old. It's got disc brakes (Hope) and front suspension (Fox) so I still think of it as modern ... and the frame still looks like new, of course.

As for feel ... tricky ... I do remember a moment going down a root staircase somewhere on the SDW where it honestly came together and felt like a big spring. It was a good moment, and probably one of the few times when I thought I was consciously aware of the frame material.

Obvs I can't comment on all the unconscious ride aspects that may or may not exist, but I can say there is always a sort of luxurious quality to progress on the Tinbred that the Inbred lacks (although that is rigid), and, even when you're just riding along, you know it's TITANIUM 8) and those other bikes aren't.

Only real problem is no rusty spots appearing, which would give you that excuse to 'upgrade'.

Never ridden 853. But I would never have an alu bike, I still think it's just wrong.

Im surprised people feel there will be/is no difference. Its clear if the geo is similar there must be a difference. I can feel it on MTBs and so does every mag review, not once have I seen a 'steel, Alu, Ti, its all the same' expose.

If 29er hard tails float your boat,go for the Titus Fireline evo Ti.On One are currently selling the frame for £600.So you get the Ti ride (yes there is a difference) & weight for less than the price of an 853 frame.

[i]Its clear if the geo is similar there must be a difference[/i]

Singletrack did a blind test. I think 'not much' was the conclusion but can't find the review in the archive (probably my search fu.

That said a Ti bike is for life not just for a season, for the extra money you get something slightly lighter, bombproof, and corrosion proof - no paintwork to worry about spoiling etc. These are tangible benefits which can be worth the extra £ especially if you are going to be riding it for 20+years.

Ti isn't anything like bomb proof. It's probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there. 853 is considerably stronger.
It's also trickier and more expensive to repair. As a long term proposition I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole personally.

Wot Dorset said .... had a selection on on one's mostly inbreds until
i got my hands on terrahawk's old tinbred - love it to bits and with
the identical geometry and components from a DN6 inbred on it the
difference is night and day. Didn't have the 853 one long enough to get
a feel for it 🙁

I'd say it's more a case of selecting the frame with the geo, fit, clearances and fittings you like and then worrying about the material.

I couldn't find this off the peg so I got a custom 853/Columbus HT made by Curtis.

The weight penalty is slightly under 1lb - not an issue. Being brazed it's more of a repairable prospect. FWIW I wouldn't take the risk of having custom Ti

Seems a stupid way to buy a frame, surely the important bits are what do you primarily want it to do e.g. XC, jumps...., then look at what components you are going to ship over to it and then set a budget.

Also worth bearing in mind the old stereotypes about aluminium being harsh and steel being smoother are no longer true. Modern steel frames that pass CEN can be quite harsh and conversely modern aluminium frames can easily be ridden all day comfortably.

I couldn't find this off the peg so I got a custom 853/Columbus HT made by Curtis.

Let's see it then!

Singletrack did a blind test. I think 'not much' was the conclusion but can't find the review in the archive (probably my search fu.

Ill have a look for that, Id like to read it. It is true that modern alloy tubesets are way better than 20 years back. At that time aluminium tube sets made some seriously harsh rides, these days things like triple butted yah yahs make a huge difference to comfort and handling flex. Ditto steel tube sets are light to the point of weight not mattering etc.

You are one twisty - no one else did. I am a huge Ti fan but my current Ti hardtail is world's away from my old Ti of 10 years ago let alone 20 - wheel size,boost,tapered,double butted, discs,geometry, internal routing brakes and dropper etc etc

20 years ago MTBiking was about 20 years old. Things are quite a bit more mature now and likely to change a bit more slowly.
Also somebody tossing up 853 vs Ti is surely looking for a long term investment. If you want the latest and greatest and plan to replace in a few years then surely it makes much more sense to get a Carbon frame.

Ti isn't anything like bomb proof. It's probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there. 853 is considerably stronger.
It's also trickier and more expensive to repair. As a long term proposition I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole personally.

Agree 100%

Aluminium and CF are just as likely to last as well as steel and ti, in fact tehy may last longer. So that's not a worthwhile argument IMO.

It's got so much to do with the construction is the problem.

I had a Soul (853) and a Soda (Ti). Also had a Ragley Ti. The Soul and Soda were your absolute archetypes, I reckon Cy does that very much on purpose- not all steel frames are springy and lively but he knows people who buy expensive steel want that. And not all ti frames are lightweight and bendy but again, if you're buying a Soda that's probably what you're after.

(I had an original Bfe too, exact same geometry, IIRC a mix of 853 and 631, but totally different character because of the build)

Meanwhile the Ragley was totally different from the Soda, it was a lot stiffer- I reckon Brant had gone "Really good bike made of titanium that rides how I want it to" rather than "Bike that rides like STW members think titanium has to ride like".

TL;DR: It Depends.

Find a first gen SIR.9 or MCR.9 & respray it.
Job done.

Ti...no chance, a crack often renders them scrap.
Steel...just weld a new bit in.

I'd never part with my SIR.

Im surprised people feel there will be/is no difference. Its clear if the geo is similar there must be a difference. I can feel it on MTBs and so does every mag review, not once have I seen a 'steel, Alu, Ti, its all the same' expose

you need to read this

[url= http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Thoughts_on_science_perception_4571.html ]link[/url]

I think Singletrack did one, 2 bikes painted the same. Can't remember the issue

I think Singletrack did one, 2 bikes painted the same. Can't remember the issue

It was a Charge Duster and Duster Ti - I don't know which issue though although I do remember reading it.

Ti isn't anything like bomb proof. It's probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there. 853 is considerably stronger.
It's also trickier and more expensive to repair. As a long term proposition I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole personally.

You're probably right. I've cracked three ti frames. One has been repaired and it still going, albeit as a gentle xc bike. I had a few steel frames after the ti ones, put off by the failues and yet, after a few years I went back to Ti. Couldn't resist - the light weight and ride qualities are hard to ignore, once you go Ti it's very hard to go back. I did have a long conversation with the designer though who assured me that modern Ti frames weren't the same lightweight xc race bred frames as my earlier ones. Bought my Ti slackline in 2014 and it's still going strong, and I've given in some pretty decent hammer.
Sounds pretty obvious but the frame design will be as important as the material, get one that's designed right and it should last as long as the steel version, but over that lifetime be more enjoyable to ride.

It was a Charge Duster and Duster Ti - I don't know which issue though although I do remember reading it.

got it now issue 34

Looks like it wasn't very obvious which was which

Bought my Ti slackline in 2014 and it's still going strong, and I've given in some pretty decent hammer.
Sounds pretty obvious but the frame design will be as important as the material, get one that's designed right and it should last as long as the steel version, but over that lifetime be more enjoyable to ride.

I'm fairly confident in my Stanton frame having seen what some of the lads get up to on theirs.

Saying that there was a hap on here who killed is Ti Slackline when he stacked it on one of the new rock gardens at Cannock and wrecked a seat stay.

Ti isn't anything like bomb proof. It's probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there. 853 is considerably stronger.
It's also trickier and more expensive to repair. As a long term proposition I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole personally.

Ti is expensive to repair yes and to be fair this is something to consider especially for touring. If the welds are crap then they will crack, or if it is a crappy design with really narrow tubes then it can have problems.
But a quality well designed Ti frame will be stronger and more bombproof than a similar 853 steel one, not weaker.
The only real damage on my ti frame is a small scratch from where i crashed my bars into a tree and smashed the brake lever into the top tube (silly me had clamped the brakes on too tight). Pretty sure a lightweight steel frame would've had a significant dent from that. What is the thickness of an 853 top tube, 0.5mm?

you need to read this

link

I think Singletrack did one, 2 bikes painted the same. Can't remember the issue

Many thanks. Interesting and bears out much of what I have experienced. I think this sentence is key...

so the more observant ones would notice speed differences. In the end, we sort of determined that when riders didn't know what they 'should' feel, they really struggled to find differences in stiffness, compliance and weight between frames or wheels.

I think we have all had guys turn up to club rides on knackers yard bikes and smoke the lot of us. Its essentially the same thing at one extreme and at the other, pros are quick on any bike. Its the same with weight, within reason i.e. a few pounds, you will perform the same on a bike weighing 15lbs as on weighing 20lbs IF the geometry is the same. As well as size etc referenced in the article, humans seem to be trained to think lighterweight = better performance, and this is not necessarily true.

I argue (badly) that if you learnt to ride fast on a rigid mtb, you will have far more subtle and quicker reactions to terrain than if you learned to ride fast on a full susser. In the former, I reckon you can feel frame types as you naturally look for the traits of the frame to get you along the trail. A full susser has far greater error tolerances and so you subconsciously learn to be crashier in your style. Once you are, riding any rigid bike will feel the same.

A long time back, 'scandium' was the allow of choice for lightweight race bikes. I ordered one from Italy and it tok an age to arrive, so much that the only bike I had to race with was an old Delgado period Pinarello, it weighed loads by even then standards. I raced it for a few months, I got the same average results (top 10), the only issue I had was down tube shifters on descents/getting caught on turns/ascents etc. Some riders are clumsy, some are subtle, some are grinders, some spin, each will look or not giver a damn about their frame type/weight.

But a quality well designed Ti frame will be stronger and more bombproof than a similar 853 steel one, not weaker.

Tosh.

I suggest anyone interested in frame material read the following....

http://www.bgcycles.com/new-page-1/

and although its not 100% on subject, this is a cracking read...

http://www.singularcycles.com/2013/01/31/thoughts-on-tapered-steerers

Got a 26" custom 853 Curtis SS and the first 853 29er Curtis made.
So blooming comfortable for long days out. Wouldn't sell either of them..... Ever

I got rid of my 853 Kona (explosive)in favour of the 4130 version (caldera). 853 is much stiffer and does not give the classic steal ride quality that you get on a 4130 frame. 853 is more like aluminium. My ti 456 however is much nicer than the 4130 version.

There is potential for steal to be almost as good as ti but it's dependant on factors in frame building beyond my understanding

An 853 bike might be stiffer than a 4130 bike

But that is tube shape not material

853 and 4130 have the same stiffness

I swapped my 853 Pipedream Sirius (which felt a little stiff compared to the 853 Inbred it replaced) with a Pipedream Scion, which felt more comfortable. The difference between the 2 Pipedreams? - 19mm seatstays on the Sirius and 16mm on the Scion.

The design matters (all 3 bikes would have had 4130 seatstays - 853 tends just to save a little weigh).

It's probably about the most cracked and snapped frame material out there.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

Honestly My heart weeps None of my MTB'S ever broke I know another guy who did the barrier bike roofrack thing , not a sausage

One Lynskey road bike almost snapped looking at it

Aluminium bikes pfft crack adoodle

Tosh.

I thought I was being reasonably balanced and realistic with my advice.
But this detailed and well reasoned response has shown me that clearly I was wrong, it is wrong to even contemplate Ti. No need to think about it, just buy an 853 frame because it is the magic metal, it is stronger, it is bombproof.

But make sure it is never clamped into a workstand because the tubes will crush...

I have a Mk I Soul and loved it so much got a Soda as, hey, it's an even fancier a Soul, right? And I'd wanted a Ti frame for, oh, knocking on 10 years....

I didn't get it, there was definitely more 'spring' and the 31.6mm seat tube (over the 27.2mm steel one) made the transmission way more direct. But I guess I probably didn't ride it often (or hard) enough.

In the end I did a 5 hour route with a mate on a newly built up Solaris and where we were swapping about (both my bikes) and despite the 29er only being my 4th ride on it to me felt so much better. I sold on the Soda not long after that.

I'm currently seriously considering a 650B+ bike and options are a custom Ti Pact or new gen Sherpa. Despite the benefits of being able to get a slightly longer, slightly slacker version of my Solaris with boost rear and choice of cable routing I've a Sherpa on reserve. 50% cost and the nagging doubt of the Soda experience being the deciding factors.

Re. non 853 rear ends on '853' frames somewhere on the Cotic website Cy explains his use of same. Iirc there is no difference in weight or stiffness so it would only make a frame more expensive with no real world advantage.

I think that in making steel lighter, strength has to come from the tube profile. This in turn stiffens the tubes and makes the ride characteristics different. For the sake of a pound, which makes no real world difference, is it even worth bothering?

Just for balance, I bought Metalheart's Soda. It was springy, taught and exciting to ride. I sold it because it had 26" wheels. I regret that.
Unlike a painted bike, titanium doesn't pick up scratches or small dings; my 10-year-old titanium road frame still looks brand new.

But a quality well designed Ti frame will be stronger and more bombproof than a similar 853 steel one, not weaker.

Really?

[img] [/img]

Surely the same careful design using a material of around double the strength will be stronger.....

Honestly My heart weeps None of my MTB'S ever broke I know another guy who did the barrier bike roofrack thing , not a sausage

The roof rack thing is pure good luck. No more no less.
I'm going on what I've personally experienced and seen in the bike trade. Considering how many Ti frames there are out there (not many) the failure rate is too high, trust me on that! 🙂
Give the choice of pretty much anything I've got 2 alloy and 3 steel bikes. 🙂

But a quality well designed Ti frame will be stronger and more bombproof than a similar 853 steel one, not weaker.

Really?

Agreed in the main PP but also depends what 'similar' means, or 'strong'. Dent resistance, resistance to fatigue cracks at the weld, pre and post weld strength, etc.

Also frames are often made to a safe design then taken to a stiffness level - if you stopped at 'safe' at the lightest weight with Ti or steel you could have what some might call a whippy mess of a ride. So you go for adequate stiffness, a good stiffness to weight ratio. ie give me a stiff-enough steel frame at close to 5lbs over a floppy frame at 4lbs, or 3 1/2lbs vs 2 3/4 for Ti road frames ime, etc.

Comparing ti and 853 is a bit futile and there's so many half-truths about it all. Basically, buy ti if you want ti, it can make a great riding frame and it'll be a bit lighter. If I wanted durability I could trust over 20 years of regular use and touring for ex I'd go for 853 with a bit extra on the tube spec to get that durability.

Added to that you might be able to get a bike made closer to what you're after in steel simply as there's more builders working with it. That counts for more than the material for a good custom bike, imo. Could get 2 frames made for the price of a ti frame too, could be useful as ime the first frame to a design isn't often 100% right anyway.

Yo PetterPoddy, and 100% agree and guy who called my comments Tosh.
I'm going to take a step back at this point and admit I threw my toys out of the pram a bit, why - because that whilst there is some good thoughts in this thread I think there are also some half truths and this winds me up because I am a technical pendant.

[u]The graph[/u]
Proves that if you compare strands of material with a 1.sq.mm cross section the 853 one will pull up a mighty 1400N and the Ti 3AL-2.5V a puny 900N.
This isn't particularly relevant because we are not talking about structural suspenders, bicycle frames are not tubes pulled in tension. Okay there is a 'stiffness' in there which is a bit more relevant but we don't even know what that really is, Youngs modulus?, shear stiffness?, torsional stiffness?, what half-assed engineer didn't label that figure correctly grr, grumble.
Titanium of course has a much lower density than iron, and the graph would be a bit more relevant if it was normalised to account for density, but then again it was made by Reynolds and they wanted their materials to look as impressive as possible.

[u]The Bombproof thing[/u]

Considering how many Ti frames there are out there (not many) the failure rate is too high, trust me on that!
Give the choice of pretty much anything I've got 2 alloy and 3 steel bikes.

Well I personally snapped an Aluminium alloy frame in ~3 years, bent an Aluminium frame in 2 weeks, and cracked a steel frame in about 2 years + 2 years of original careful owner.
If I thought about it superficially then I could conclude that Aluminium and steel make rubbish frames, and the Titanium is the magic metal because my Ti frame has lasted for 16+years plus a few years use from original owner. However, the world far more complicated than this and there are a variety of reasons for the failures and success of the frames beyond picking frames from the periodic table.
You've witnessed failed Ti frames, but why did they fail - what are the underlying reasons?
Many moons ago I tried to organise a group buy of imported Titanium frames.
I put a lot of time into it, talking to a few different factories in China, looking at the geometries and tube profiles, working out which manufactures they distributed too. I had enough backers to make it work but in the end I stalled and pulled out of going through with it. Why? Because I felt too much personal responsibility over the quality of the frames when they were delivered. My research found, amongst other things, that doing the welding just right is critical to the integrity of the frame and I wasn't able or even capable of overseeing the QA of the manufacture.
After this time I did see quite a few of the online shops were selling cheap imported Ti frames, I wonder if these are the type of frames that you have seen failing? There was also a time when people tended to make Ti frames with small tube profiles to accentuate the Ti whippy feel and those might also be prone to fail.

[u]So you've read all that technical answer to technical stuff, here is the point[/u]
The reason I referred to Ti as a bit lighter and bombproof as in my view as an experienced MTBiker and engineer compare a 4.5lbs 853 frame to a similar 4lbs Ti frame, or even a 4lbs 853 frame to a 3.5lbs Ti frame - the Ti frame will have thicker tubes and generally be more resilient, mash the chainstay on a rock it is less likely to dent, land a large drop off angle you are less likely to twist the rear triangle, crash it into a tree the headtube is more resistant to folding into the frame, it is far less likely to dink/crease/fold if you mash something (e.g. rock / brake lever/ fellow competitors frame) into one of the tubes or a large stone flicks up and hits the downtube, it doesnt even have paint to chip, etc.

Yes I didn't qualify in my original post that you do need to make sure that Ti is welded together properly, and that is is a reasonable design. However, I wasn't getting all misty eyed about the benefits of Ti either.

Lots of ti frames break and it's because of 3 things
1) It's not the easiest material to work with
2) Some of the big names aren't actually very good at it (and people go "Well if a [i]Lynskey[/i] breaks then they must all be fragile, because Lynskey is teh best". It's like buying an Intense and saying "aluminium sucks because the frames are always welded squint"
But most important is 3) Most people who buy a ti frame want it to be as light as possible, and like the idea of a flexible frame, and that obviously affects strength. If you buy a super-light frame of any description then complain that it's not as strong as a much heavier frame, you deserve it if it breaks.