[Closed] Ti frame question - what would you do?

Pay the £40 and get it mended properly. A no-brainer.

as a proportion of frame value, Id go for the re-tap fix.

If it was a £250 Scandal, Id mash it in.

pretty much what I'm thinking... any suggestions on someone to do the job?

don't spoil a ship for a ha'porth of tar. As my dad would say.

psychle - Member
pretty much what I'm thinking... any suggestions on someone to do the job?

Kaesae....?

If it was a £250 Scandal, Id mash it in

The frame wasn't a huge amount more than this TBH, (it had a crack which had been repaired). Which is kind of why I'm on the fence... though of course, it is a very expensive frame new and is a lovely piece of metal work to boot 🙂

I'll go down the proper route... now just need to find someone to do the job. And Kaesae won't be on my list 😆

an update on this, picked the frame up from LBS this afternoon, the mechanic reckons I need to have the threads 'chased' (is that the right term?). they can't do it in their workshop as it needs a specific tool for a ti frame, is this right?

RIGHT! WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS PUT THE BB A COUPLE OF TURNS IN, GET A GREAT BIG HAMMER, SLEDGE WOULD BE BEST, YEAH? LIE THE FRAME FLAT ON SOME CONCRETE, TAKE A HUGE RUN UP AND **** THE BB AS HARD AS YOU CAN, WE WILL SEE HOW HARD THE SS IS! There, thats £25 pounds please.

oooh-kaay then... I take it I've upset somebody? 🙁

Err..not me! I was trying to sound really loud to go with the idea of taking anything blunt and heavy near an IF frame. 😳

ah... I see 🙂 'tis hard to pick up nuances on this 'ere forum 😉

I'd probably lube up the stainless EBB and 'sympathetically' wind it in. Wind it in a half turn then quarter out, then in a half turn etc - as if I were tapping a new thread. Wind it right out every now and again and have a look to see if anything's going awry.

shouldn't need "special" tools for a standard BS BB, but in Ti will eat through tooling - so they'd need sharpening sooner. We can do (as should most shops with a decent BB tap) , but would charge more for Ti, due to this wear.

Si

thing is, this shop stocks plenty of Ti loveliness... I'd have thought they'd be used to working with it, maybe there's something they're not telling me? 🙁

Shouldnt need special tools. Normal cutters are as hard as nails, but so is the Ti. Problem is the cutters arent cheap and as they cut the Ti the tool is embedded with Ti swarf which means the tool cannot then be used in an aluminium frame, only in a Ti one. Seeing as Ti frames are better manafactured than most they rarely need the BB tapping out, so the need for a special tool is not warranted by most LBS. Hope this makes things clearer.

update on this (for anyone interested 🙂 ) Been playing around with various combinations today, I can fit a HT II BB to the IF frame no worries (using a Park tool to give leverage, it's tight but goes in OK...) I can then take this BB off fine and re-instal into another frame (so would that suggest it's [b]not[/b] cutting new threads??)

Also, when I install the stainless EBB into another frame it goes in fine, so I guess the threads on it are OK... but the non-drive side cup simply will not go in all the way into the Indy frame 🙁 I don't have a tool to exert leverage on it (like I can with the HT II BB) so have to rely on hand tightening... it's most annoying, I was hoping to have this built up by this weekend 🙁

Ah well, just got off the phone to Enigma, they can re-face/chase the BB for me for £25 (plus postage)... so it shall be done properly 🙂 fingers crossed they can sort it out easily enough!

do you have the same amount of thread / depth of cup on the EBB one as your HTII? I can't see logically why if you can get the HTII to go in fine, and the EBB one goes into another frame fine, why this particular combination doesn't work. It could I suppose by a micro tolerance issue, but are you sure you aren't running out of thread on the Indy before the EBB is fully seated?

What about fiddling your spacers, if that's possible and it's just a tiny bit off?

well, the thread on the EBB is the same depth as the HTII, it goes in fine on the drive side and the cups are the same depth for both sides. I think the HTII one goes in OK because I can get a decent amount of force on it with the Park tool, I can't do this with the EBB, plus I think the stainless would just be to tough to force in?

I noticed you mentioned that the last BB on the frame was a RaceFace one. Not sure if this is of use but from another forum...

[url= http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226408 ]saint VS atlas FR[/url]

if you look at comment [b]#6[/b] by [b]Sandwich[/b]:

"The general consensus is that the atlas are plenty strong and pretty, but the BB mounting system is inferior and will wear out when reinstalled. In other words, set it and forget it- no problem, fiddle constantly or switch frame, buy new cranks."

Could this be the problem?

Any bike shop can chase the threads out - or at least should be able to. It's only metal, not rocket surgery.

Get on the phone to your nearest decent LBS and ask them. I reckon you'd be looking at about £20 tops.

Tim - its not doing it thats the problem, its what the Ti swarf does to the tool. The Ti gets embedded in the cutter and renders the tool useless to use in an alu frame. Most Ti doesnt need tapping out so you have a tool used for 1 job?

Cutters are £195 each retail (Park).

My LBS won't do it unfortunately (Mosquito, and they deal in Indy Fab, Merlin, Litespeed and all sorts of other boutique loveliness). If they won't do it then I doubt my local Evans or Cyclesurgery will either 🙁

I'm no expert but, given your comments above about thread depth etc all appearing to be the same I'd suggest dropping Indy Fabs a line and ask their thoughts?
Also, can't harm to ask other LBS' - costs nowt to ask, worst they can do is say 'no'.....?

Tim - its not doing it thats the problem, its what the Ti swarf does to the tool. The Ti gets embedded in the cutter and renders the tool useless to use in an alu frame. Most Ti doesnt need tapping out so you have a tool used for 1 job?

Cutters are £195 each retail (Park).

No it doesn't. Not if you know what you're doing. We're not talking about cutting a new thread here, just clearing an already formed one that has some damage of some sort. My guess is that the frame has had a few BB's in it and one of them has corroded and left a little of itself in there, someone has removed said BB cup and caused a tiny bit of damage to the threads. It'll be a doddle to fix and if you fancy sending it here I'll happily do it and return it for £30.

then why won't Mosquito do it?? 🙁 They're mechanic was completely not interested, I wonder why?

Maybe they're busy. Did you show him the frame?

I agree with Tim. We do a lot of tapping of holes in Ti and never have a problem. After all you are only chasing existing threads.

yep... left it with him for the day. As mentioned above, I wonder if there's something they're not telling me?

Can you take a decent close up of the offending threaded area? Mail it to me if you like.

Did you know you can get an internal thread file. If no one will do it then have a go yourself.

They look like [url= http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Damaged-Thread-External-Internal-Resotrer-Files-1906_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5630a5349cQQitemZ370183320732QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools ]this[/url]

Here's some pics of the shell, hopefully covering 360 degrees. I can't see a misaligned thread, can you? thanks for your help btw 🙂
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[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/32746168@N08/sets/72157622934965490/ ]Larger images here on Flickr[/url]

As tim said, chasing a thread is only cleaning out an existing thread... it takes away tiny spurs or lumps of the metal away to efectively clean the thread... they use a cutting fluid to ease this, it will not damage the tool...

My guess is that the shop does not have the park tool required, or that the mechanic in on that day was too busy or not confident enough to do it...

they would not hide other problems from you as they would rather show them and try to sell you another frame...

On another note, you say the frame was damaged and got a weld to fix it?

I know someone with a cracked weld on a ti frame and would love to know if it is fixable, the weld cracked is between the top and seat tube...

Psychle do you have access to some vernier calipiers? If you do measure the thread diameter on both sides to see if there is any difference. Threads have a working tolerence, maybe the EBB is close to the upper limit of the tolerance and the BB is at the lower end of the tolerence hence making it a tight fit. I would be looking at the EBB as Im sure that is a CNC cut thread and the BB with be cut by a die. If it is the BB then using a piece of emery paper you maybe able to take off the peak of the thread and that may allow it to fit.

where did the extra thread marks inside come from. It looks like you have forced something too long in there ?

fnarr

not sure where the extra marks are from, they were there when I got it... the cups of my BB are only 12mm deep (or so), same as a HTII.

what does fnarr mean?

how close are you to reading we will be able to chase thread for you

Back now (shot a PB at archery if you're interested). The threads all look fine, but it's more or less impossible to say for sure without feeling them. A tolerance mis-match as pointed out by Neil, could be all it is too. I'd be tempted to get a tap through the BB anyway though.

This is all a bit scary ...

I've got a Forward Component EBB, and shoved it into my Ti456. Non-driveside went in easily but driveside was a real faff & needed a wrench after about 2 turns. So, last weekend I took it out to make sure everything was clean; cleaned up the threads & shell, loads of grease and then started tightening it by hand.

Each 1/4 turn was repeated until silky smooth, and then on another 1/4 and repeat. After 30 very boring minutes it was about 3/4 in when there was a sudden halt combined with a bit of a gritty sound.

I how have a EBB that won't move. The installation tool is knackered but Eric at FC has sent me a replacement free (and offered loads of sound advice). And it still won't budge.

So, it's back to On one in a fortnight for some vice action, I think. Funnily enough, the Hope Ceramic BB (the only BB the frame has seen) was also difficult to get in on the driveside. So either the threads we're chased, or got damaged when the Hope went in and have got further damaged with the EBB, or the shell is slightly ovalised (which a soft ali BB would deform to fit but which the EBB wouldn't).

Moral - take no risks. I'm gutted that I might have knackered my Ti456, even being careful with it.

More views [url= http://my.opera.com/Farticus/albums/show.dml?id=1198491 ]here[/url] with oil on it optimistically hoping it'd help.
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hmmm... [i]deja vu[/i]

Each 1/4 turn was repeated until silky smooth, and then on another 1/4 and repeat. After 30 very boring minutes it was about 3/4 in when there was a sudden halt combined with a bit of a gritty sound

Almost exactly what I'm getting, but on the non-drive side... I stopped before it seized though... wonder if it's an issue with the EBB??

I picked up a lovely Indy Fab Ti Deluxe frame off the classifieds a while ago, some folk may remember it (from TheSwede, it featured on the 'Fanny Basher' thread )

Hahaha.

Sorry, let me stop you right there... Chuck it in the skip mate... You don't know where it's been and what abuse it's been subject to! Haha. Sorry 😉

No seriously though, his frame was all good, just too short for him and too tall for his missus.

Right... It's not unheard of for BB threads to be out of line, or mis-shapen etc. But this is an Indy Fab frame, and from your photos everything looks ok. First thing, do you know this BB you're fitting is 100% spot thread wise? I'd have to question that too myself.

But definitely get the frame and BB down to a reputable bike shop with the right tools to check everything over, and possibly rectify any problems.

Either that or junk the fancy BB, and just fit a normal one, then buy an On One Doofer for £10! Seriously, running a tensioner is no big deal is it?

Well, I like to keep things neat if I can 🙂

The EBB goes in fine on a Whyte 19 aluminium frame, screws straight in on both sides, hand tightened, no problems at all, so I assume that would indicate the threads are fine on it?

I can also fit a HTII shell into the IF frame, it's tight on the non-drive side and needs a bit of force (and the use of a BBT-9 to get the requisite leverage), but it goes in OK...

Right, so it looks like it is just a thread tolerance problem. Personally I would take the frame to the LBS and get them to chase the thread.Then try in the EBB. If its at all tight you can do one of two things. Use emery paper to knock off the top of the threads on the EBB or on the internal threads of the BB. If you do the EBB (which is the one I would do) then you will need a thread file to just to dress up the thread. I have in the past used cutting paste on tight threads and then slowly worked the thread till the cuting paste has done its job.

Galling - http://www.estainlesssteel.com/gallingofstainless.html

Essentially, the stainless EBB unit has nigh on fusion welded itself to the BB shell.

... wonder if it's an issue with the EBB??

Why one side only? Doubt it's galling as EBB went in slowly with loads of grease. But what do I know - I'm the idiot that got it stuck.

Tim - youre bang on, but how many would take the risk? Its really the guys who have been doing this for an age that know what they can & cant do/get away with. Ive been in it for 5 mins compared to most.

Threads look ok in the pics - but as already said, you cant really tell till you feel/run tool in.

Someone will do it for you - just call around locally to start.

Good luck fella.

I hope the moderators don't mind me participating directly in this discussion. I am the owner of Forward Components and the designer of the EBB.

Hundreds of EBBs have been sold by Forward Components and these two are the only known samples with issues of this sort. In fact they are the only known examples of our EBBs with any complaints at all. One of the posters here has been in contact with me. I have provided a great deal of advice and support, and he seems to have resolved the issue by having the bottom bracket threads chased. The original poster seems to be having a similar problem, and I suspect that there is a similar cause. The frame's bottom bracket shell and threads seem to be somehow malformed or contaminated. This could be caused by any number of manufacturing and maintenance factors, all of which can be investigated. The fact that both EBBs are having issues with opposite sides of the bottom bracket shell suggests frame issues and not EBB issues.

It is possible that there is a thread tolerance mismatch. That is, the EBB threads are at the high end of the permissable size range, and the frame threads are at the low end of the permissable size range. All EBBs are tested before shipping on a sample shell that is at the lower end of the size range, so there should never be a tolerance issue. That being said, it is possible that some manufacturers are using worn or undersized cutting tools, resulting in threads that are smaller than those found in typical frames.

My recommendation to the OP is the same as it was for the other customer who has posted here. Have the bottom bracket shell threads chased by a competant mechanic. If this does not resolve the problem then please feel free to contact Forward Components directly or through this forum.

Forward Components is not perfect, and it is possible that the problem arises from our end. If that is the case the parts will be repaired or replaced to the customer's satisfaction in accordance with our warranty.

Just to back up what Eric said - he's been fantastic helping me out (as hopefully came across in my earlier posts).

The good news is that On One got the EBB out using a vice but at the expense of the EBB driveside cup - but at least the frame's OK. As the non-driveside went in easily I'm working on the assumption that chasing the driveside should sort it out for another try with a new cup.

An update after a bit of a stressful time.

On One got the EBB out (involving a vice, drilling the installation tool and quite a few people turning the frame). They said the BB shell was fine and would take a standard BB, but I got the whole lot sent to Sideways Tim.

Meanwhile, Eric at Forward Components sent me a replacement driveside threaded cup and installation tool at cost - much appreciated along with the invaluable advice he gave throughout the process.

Tim chased the BB shell as the threads definitely needed it, and once that was done the driveside threaded cup went in by hand.

So, moral of the story is not to assume that a Ti frame will have had the threads chased - if that had happened at the outset there wouldn't have been a problem.

Big thanks to Tim for chasing a Ti frame when many others refuse, and to Eric for great support and advice.