[Closed] Those hidden trails mctrail rider...

Looks to me like the mast, at Inverness

From the video
"The trail builders have gone to great lengths to keep the location off trail forks".

So they would probably be quite annoyed if details were put on the busiest MTB site in Europe.

I'll give you a clue though, they are about 5 miles to the east of Aberdeen. 😁😁

Nah, they're just outside Oban.

My bad, they're the Dumfries town woods.

I’ll give you a clue though, they are about 5 miles to the east of Aberdeen

Offshore bike park 👍

What neallyman says

I’ll give you a clue though, they are about 5 miles to the east of Aberdeen.

5 miles east? Counteswells? Cults? You’re too late to ride them Stewarty Milnes just built some more houses on those trails. 😅

So they would probably be quite annoyed if details were put on the busiest MTB site in Europe

I hate that attitude. For a sport that is meant to be inclusive there is a lot of selfishness that goes on.

Offshore bike park

Built that chairlift yet?

I hate that attitude. For a sport that is meant to be inclusive there is a lot of selfishness that goes on.

Nah, I get it, it is the standard trailbuilder's conundrum, you want to show off all your awesome trails but you DON'T want them getting all blown out. Some might argue it is up to the trailbuilder to build trails that don't get blown out but then you just end up with identi-kit IMBA blandness.

Getting a high profile vlogger to do a vid might seem the ideal solution but as soon as people know there are secret trails somewhere the truth WILL out.

I remember when I lived in North Van someone in a bike shop made a comment about the most secret, longest trail on Mt Fromme, but gave no other details. Simply knowing this trail existed was enough for me to ferret it out eventually (pre-Strava heat map). You can't keep good trail secret!

There are various reasons why it may not be a good idea to freely broadcast the existence and location of every MTB trail.

Very naive to think otherwise.

For a sport that is meant to be inclusive there is a lot of selfishness that goes on.

True story: Where I used to live there a wee section of super steep corners and chutes that was a bit of cheeky in a patch of post-industrial derelict woods. Every one knew about it, no one talked about it, all was cool. A YouTuber who was all about the Hype rode it, and the next thing you know, the corners are all blown out, the undergrowth on the entrances pushed aside, litter all over the place, bikers launching onto the roads and scaring the walkers and horses the land owner's losing his shit, and there are wire fences going up left and right...

Sometimes, it's fine not to share

land owner’s losing his shit, and there are wire fences going up left and right…

This would be the main reason to not to publicise other people's hard graft, pick up a spade if you really want to ride 'secret trails'. Had a lad pestering me recently to show him the trails used in the Naughty Northumbrian, instead of actually entering the race like I and several mutual friends have done, I won't be showing him

Behind the Nationwide?

I also hate the secrecy that seems to pervade Scottish mountain biking. We have a right to roam because access to the countryside is a right and something to be enjoyed equally between everyone. I have a couple of friends who are borderline influencers and they never say where they're riding - they post loads of amazing photos from the Cairngorms and don't give anyone any hint. But it isn't just theirs, it's everyone's. We have an equal right to enjoy them, and most of them are so far out the way that they're not suddenly going to get hammered by thousands of riders.

In the hills in Scotland, I absolutely agree Luke.

But if it's off-piste woodland trails hand cut by someone else, it just seems not cool to broadcast the location on the web.

There are many exceptions of course, where the trailbuilders do want people to come and ride or where building is clearly tolerated.

There are some issues I understand in sharing trails. I ride a few myself that I don’t really share - although I share more than I don’t. Sometimes the legality isn’t clear, sometimes the landowner prefers the majority of riding on their own established trails - so in those and similar cases, I use my discretion.

Even where there is open access, I think it’s fine not to share trails - because whilst the trails are there for people to ride, the actual route are your own. Also, who doesn’t love finding a trail for themselves - I love it.

don’t give anyone any hint. But it isn’t just theirs, it’s everyone’s. We have an equal right to enjoy them

I'm sure no one grudges you riding them. You just have to know where they are.

I don't think anyone under any compulsion to broadcast where anything is any more than denying you your "right" to ride it....

I am pondering this one, and not sure where I stand.

One thing I am settled on - it is odd that a YouTuber is (invited?) to share trails that folk want to keep quiet and hidden.

Agreed, he shouldn't really be sharing edits of amazing trails if it's an area best not to be broadcast... But he makes his living from people watching his vids so there is a conflict of interest.

The people saying it's their right to know where trails are obviously haven't built their own for them to be wrecked by skidding straight lines that draw other riders in "because it's faster" removing challenging features because they are hard, or adding "improvements" like berms or jumps that fill with water with the slightest rain.

There are other issues like people wanting to park near to the trails rather than riding in, one local spot people now park on a the outside of a blind bend in the road. Things like this draw attention from local mimbys who will then take it upon them selves to try to close the trails by any means they can to stop the dangers or what ever else is bothering them.

There tends to be a problem with littering when more people know about an area.

I'm a bit on the fence with this - seems very odd to invite someone along to make a video of the trails but also then not tell folk where it is.

I completely get the idea of keeping great trails secret as going by what happens everywhere, the great trails get destroyed and they turn in to good or decent trails as the people who can't ride it as-is think it is fine to get in and change stuff to make it easier. You then get people who aren't 'skilled' enough (I hate that idea, but it is more people with less experience of the technical level of the trail - so perhaps less familiar with the skills required - I'm way off that level in most things, so I'm not suggesting I'm way above that level of skill as I'm not!) then getting involved and the trails get changed again...

You then also get every man and their dog at the trails as they've all heard how amazing they are and it then just becomes a natural version of Sauchiehall street...

There are times and places where that will work well, but likewise there are plenty places where that won't work - and getting a video made about it isn't really helping the argument for keeping it quiet.

@13thfloormonk

I remember when I lived in North Van someone in a bike shop made a comment about the most secret, longest trail on Mt Fromme, but gave no other details. Simply knowing this trail existed was enough for me to ferret it out eventually (pre-Strava heat map). You can’t keep good trail secret!

Do tell! Feel free to message me! 😉

seems very odd to invite someone along to make a video of the trails but also then not tell folk where it is.

Yeah this is weird. I understand that content creators have got to get content out there for folks to see, and people like Mctrail Rider and Tommy C probs get asked to ride all sorts. Tommy even did a video Mea Culpa about some riding he did recently that had some negative impacts even before it was posted up. But as soon as you put stuff up and say don't come here, it's blindingly obvious what will happen, and you can't really blame folk for wanting to ride great looking trails

I have ridden my local trails for over 10 years.

In the last couple more and more people are riding them and in all weathers.

Many are now very eroded, full of braking bumps and lots of strava lines appearing.

Problem is only a small percentage of riders do maintenace and with a wider depth of skill of rider, you see features getting bypassed or even gnar added.

Its a tricky one, I dont grudge anyone riding my local trails and will gladly show someone round if they ask but how you get the hordes to fix, maintain, repair and tidy is a question.

In terms of mctrail riding a "secret trail", thats marketing. Look at us all talking about it....

I tend to agree Steve, everyone that rides should be doing some form of maintenance.

It's not hard.

seems very odd to invite someone along to make a video of the trails but also then not tell folk where it is.

Off topic obv, but that describes pretty much every surf video ever. Took me a few years to get it, but I think it's good to have a few secrets...

The trails in McTrailriders video are on Strava/ trail forks. Maybe not the specific ones he's riding but the riding area is on there and the trails arent hard to find

I tend to agree Steve, everyone that rides should be doing some form of maintenance.

It’s not hard.

This, although I know a guy who is/was pretty instrumental in some great trails, he was most miffed when he found an event organiser had been showing off trails to a magazine bod and was claiming them for his event, builders not even offered an event spot.

I'm very much of the thought that sharing local knowledge is fine, but don't be posting off piste trails or give away locations on social media (especially if you have a following) and certainly don't add something you didn't build to trailforks or strava.

I certainly think some of the trail etiquette has been lost in recent years. For example we used to regularly ride a spot where we were always told to park elsewhere and ride to the trails to help keep the peace with other users. Nowadays you can't move for poorly parked T6s but how does that message get across if people aren't learning about the trails via word of mouth anymore?

it is odd that a YouTuber is (invited?) to share trails that folk want to keep quiet and hidden.

I spoke to a trail builder about this - he had appeared in a pro rider's vlog showing him a trail. Within a couple of weeks he was having to post on social media asking people to stay away as there had been two people removed from that trail by ambulance.

I got the impression he had got caught up in the moment and was happy a pro wanted to ride his line, but then regretted it.

It's behind the bank in Swindon town centre.

@13thfloormonk

OMG which trail? 😀 The remains of GMG? Or the one that drops in to the right of the big tree stump? Ha ha.

Nah, but I think it blurs in to the end of GMG.

It starts with a vicious steep blown out chute to the right of a wee rock outcrop on an old skidder road above seventh switchback.

😉

(the clue to the name is in the emoji)

edit: it's shown on that old Knee Knacker first aid map that was doing the rounds for while, although it's not given a name.

Ah yes, the one by the stump IIRC 😉 I tried to ride down it on my old Dialled hardtail years ago but walked the chute! I think I may have gone off trail at one point and ended up walking through a homeless encampment. I ended up managing to cut through and back onto Crinkum Crankum I think. I was quite relieved to get back to the normal trails ha ha.

Im not sure either. The bit Im struggling with is trailbuilder is happy for a YouTuber to show off their trails and make a living from The Tube, but then doesnt want people to know they exist or location so they dont eget ridden. Perhaps they do a deal so that some of the money goes to the builder in which case thats fine I get it. Beyond that Im getting a bit stuck as to why you would want to publicise trails you dont want ridden

I shouldn't think "the trail builder" has anything to do with the vid at all, it's also unlikely to just be a single person doing all the building.

Maybe McTrailrider has been shown the trails by locals or just exploring but when ridden the trail/segment aren't on Strava etc. Maybe he knew the trails and they have been removed from trail forks/Strava etc so wanted to monetize from them still.

I very much doubt there will be an agreement with the trail builders to be payed royalties.

I expect the trails in question are tolerated but with a gentlemen's agreement that they don't get advertised.

I expect the trails in question are tolerated but with a gentlemen’s agreement that they don’t get advertised.

This

The trail builders do have an agreement with the private landowner, and they take care of the costs,insurances etc, as well as the maintenance. They have also worked hard in keeping the trails off Strava, YT and TF, which i'm sure is an ongoing job for them.

One of the stipulations of the agreement is that they don't get advertised and that it doesn't become a destination. There is very little space to park before becoming a nuisance. There is space for 3 vehicles which usually get taken early by other forest users. Any other vehicles will be parked on the road which can become a problem at times. There is houses and flats right next to the parking spaces, so their right to privacy and peace on a sunday morning would be ruined by a few vans full of bikers yapping and laughing outside whilst getting ready. Complaints to the council then landowner would ensue. There used to be more space to park, presumably the council or housebuilders have deliberately made it smaller for the above reason. I'd say Probably about 80-90% of the locals that i know ride there from home or get dropped off.

There is also the problem of trails being trashed shortly after they have appeared on the popular channels. I noticed the difference on one of our other local(ish) trails that MCTR had done a video of. They got hammered for the following 6 weeks and the builders couldn't keep up with the maintenance. The ground is quite soft on these trails, they are not like a hardpacked trailcentre. They simply can't take the traffic that a TC does.

Then there is the problem of trails being closed for maintenance and non locals ignoring the barriers and signs , making a new line around them because they have travelled 120 miles to ride the trail, and they are doing it no matter what. Admittedly, most travellers i meet on the trails are sound and avoid the closed trails but they have had a few fuds flying down the closed trail whilst working on it.

There are loads of trails around here that are not on the usual sources. All of them absolutely banging enduro/dh trails, and all legal with landowner permission/ agreements. Most of them have the same character as they are built by the same folk that built that trails on the video in the OP. I have a choice of 9 venues within 15 miles of my house (about 60 trails) 5 of which are not advertised anywhere. There are vids on YT of a few but there is no indication of where they are. Parking would be an issue on all these venues bar 2 of them.

I think some people just have to accept the local trails for local people train of thought (not mine),due to the various issues around them. If you find them, Nobody will stop you riding them, anyone can ride them. Just don't expect the builders or locals to advertise them because you think you have a right to ride them due to access rights. Access rights don't require trailbuilders and locals to disclose trails they have built.

Having said all that, i would happily show any forum members these trails.

As long as you don't mind being blindfolded and bungled in to the back of my van, after you have sworn an oath of secrecy and left your mobile and gopro at home. Oh, and i'll need your home and email addresses, just in case.🤣

@walleater

13th and I have been having a side conversation about this trail. Long story short, I'm going exploring this weekend (I intend to hike up from the bottom) so any info gratefully received! Feel free to message me! 😉

I don't think access rights says you can build trails anyway does it? Pretty sure it doesn't.

Access rights don't, but agreement with land owner will...

I don’t think access rights says you can build trails anyway does it? Pretty sure it doesn’t.

See my first sentence in my post above. It has nothing to do with the Scottish access code, building an authorised trail on private land. Using it does. Anyone can use it. Nobody has to tell you where it is though.

 

@markgraylish

I've messaged you 🙂

If you build it they will come.

Trying to keep it quiet is just delaying the inevitable especially in this day and age where there will always be those who prioritise their own social media.

Think it's almost impossible to keep trails secret in this day and age. I'm not local to the trails in question but it only took 5 mins of detective work to find out where they are. In this case some more careful editing would have fixed that. When I started the only way I could find out about the secret stuff was to get involved with the trail building and break a sweat. Changed days.

There is a description of where to find them on another website.

As the op referenced Mctrail rider I just used his videos to work out the location.

@stevenmenmuir second post tells you where they are lol

Yeah I know. I'm just pointing out that you can work out the location from Mctrail riders videos despite him not wanting to say where they are.

If you have the Right to Roam in Scotland then go and roam about wherever you like and look for them.
Once someone reveals where they are (and they will, might not be you, might not be your best friend who you showed, but somewhere down the chain it’ll be revealed) they’ll be trashed.

Go out, find a nice quiet spot, spend hours/days/weeks making your own trails and then share them with the public and see how it feels to watch them die when too many people ride them, Kevin modifies it because the corner is too hard/easy, jump too small/big, skids, skids, skids.

skids, skids, skids

This. I made the mistake of showing a guy I ride/rode with some local to me stuff. He now drives an hour each way to ride it, using seemingly only his rear brake, in all weathers. I've asked him not to pull massive skids all over the place, including at the end of runs, effectively revealing them to those that want to block them with logs and worse, not to mention carving up the actual trail. This plus him never meeting a landing he couldn't case. He responds by saying it will only take a few minutes to fix. Though, not by him. ****. Does anyone have access to one of those MIB mind erasers?

Some local to me have a subtle way of showing an entrance and most have an end away from the main trail so you can't ride out of it.
After a few weeks ,if they've been spotted, the entrance will be huge and the trail cut to shreds and the exit may as well have fairy lights round it.

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onehundredthidiot
Full Member

Some local to me have a subtle way of showing an entrance and most have an end away from the main trail so you can’t ride out of it.
After a few weeks ,if they’ve been spotted, the entrance will be huge and the trail cut to shreds and the exit may as well have fairy lights round it.

This, exactly.... one trail of mine had originally had a very convoluted exit section which both slowed riders down before they hit the fireroad and also made it not so obvious.
Look at it now - all the switchbacks have been short-cut and the exit is just a straight drop down the fall line, as wide as a motorway, which loses 30 metres of height in a few seconds for bugger all satisfaction.
I just don’t get it tbh, which is probably why I don’t build much anymore.

People don't have the right skills so will shortcut as they can't ride the trickier stuff - the right skills come with practice and time-spent on the bike. Mountain biking has a much wider market and pull now and there are less people riding trails with the skills 'required', so many will shortcut the hard stuff and make things easier.

(I'm very much in that group just now (happily to admit I'm not that skilled), but if I can't ride a section, I get off an walk rather than making my own line)

There are also people who will shortcut everything to get faster times for the likes of Strava.

Basically, the amount of people riding bikes and trails nowadays means that the range of skills/abilities are now so wide that any trail that is created will be amended - either intentionally or by accident - very quickly after it has been introduced.

Personally, I'm all for getting everyone out on bikes and riding, however, I'm also one of the grumpy ones that really don't like seeing a trail getting changed because riders can't ride it the way it is. I'm very much aware trails evolve, but evolution takes time and isn't something that happens in a day or so by people who can't ride the trail - that is trail vandalism not trail evolution.

(I always forget how annoyed I get when I talk about this...sorry)

Aye, it's a definitely a consideration when building now, where to route track that doesn't have an escape route that folk can cut off a nice corner. I don't build in chicken lines any more either, if ye canny do it, either session it and learn, or walk.

guy who is/was pretty instrumental in some great trails, he was most miffed when he found an event organiser had been showing off trails to a magazine bod and was claiming them for his event

Vallejulah 15?

@jimmy maybes aye maybes naw.

The reason he hasn't named these trails is because the builders have politely asked him not to, due to agreements and permission they have to build. These guys are really sound. They could have asked him not to film full stop. But that's not their style.
As a direct result of said youtuber making a vid and the massive uptake in the sport. I havnt built a new trail in well over 2 years. I spend all my time just trying to keep up the maintenance. Our trails are not hidden and we welcome all users. But the level of disrespect you get from users is soul destroying at times. This includes locals and experienced riders not just visitors and those new to the sport. Closed sections and new features continually unblocked before completion, chicken lines created. Features modified. I've eventually given in to this and now build in chicken lines or make everything rollable.
I've no problem with the youtubers making content. I enjoy watching it. BUT with the massive exposure gained through social media. I think they should always attemp to contact the trail builders in new areas they visit to ensure they aren't doing harm when posting. Some spots are delicate. Wether that be from permission issues. Or not suitable for high traffic or wet weather riding. These trails don't just take a few days to build. Some are years of graft and that should be considered. MTB is nothing without the buiders

MTB is nothing without the buiders

Playing Devil's Advocate on that, there were plenty 'natural' trails before people decided to start building stuff...wildlife and farm life helped create the natural stuff and that has always been fine. The idea that a trail needs to be properly man-made seems to be a recent requirement (of about last 6 or 7 years) and has aided in the change where natural stuff suddenly needs people building on it as it isn't really a trail until it is built on...

In a lot of cases getting people in to build has been great, but in a lot, it hasn't been...but it all adds up to the mix of MTB nowadays.

Great trails should be celebrated, but does that mean you should just be able to rock up n tear em to shreds without lifting a finger when folks have put months of sweat equity, tooling and transport costs into a trail, often without being paid (or charging) a penny?

Might be worth reflecting on just how good you have it, or better still, if you want great trails, rather than whinging on a forum, get building (and maintaining)...

It's then up to you whether or not you want to share the fruits of your labour with the wider MTB community, who are often oblivious to the amount of hard graft that has gone into every last inch of a trail

Problem with those great natural trails is that with they aren't suitable for the volume of traffic we see now. So even they need looked after