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Really?
Times are hard, everywhere apart from STW Towers, apparently.
This has no relevance to anyone I know.
We're not all 12 with pictures of a Countach on our bedroom walls anymore.
This just alienates more people than it attracts.
Ditch the 'Inspirational and aspirational' bullshit and start appealing to ordinary people again.
Aye. No one cares about fox live valve, so get your **** hedge cut singletrackworld.
Ditch it? STW product features/tests have never exactly been focussed on the "12 best hardtails under £500" end of the market...
This just alienates more people than it attracts.
No it doesn't. All those bikes are massively out of my price range, but I don't feel alienated. It's like picking up a car mag and seeing it full of track tests of high-end sports cars. I'm not going to buy one, but it's more interesting than reading a shootout between a base spec Astra and Focus.
They used to be more focused on bikes people actually rode, rather than just masturbated over.
I’m not going to buy one, but it’s more interesting than reading a shootout between a base spec Astra and Focus.
Not for me.
I'd actually like some info about the bikes and kit I'm likely to buy.
Not in a 'What MTB?' style, but in an STW style - decent journalism.
Someone on here will have a live valve bike the day it hits the shops. Guaranteed.
I am not going to ever spend that type of cash but still nice to see companies pushing boundaries and the technology involved. That stuff if eventually going to trickle down and will be relevant to you.
Bit like F1 innit
Wah, wah, wah, I can't afford it, so it's not relevant. Future (expensive) tech trickles down eventually and quite often becomes the norm in a few years
bikes people actually rode, rather than just masturbated over
Are you speaking from fist hand experience or just something you came across on the internet?
I expect Fox have spent a metric $$$$ton of money on promoting this so the whole of the mountian bike media will be covering it and STW would therefore be daft to ignore it. Pinkbike's review is along the lines of "OMG this is (like) the best thing ever and i never want to ride a bike without it again" so STW's been pretty muted in comparison.
BUT... FGF - 300 quid+ jackets that aren't even bike specific??? Hmmm...
Ditch it? STW product features/tests have never exactly been focussed on the “12 best hardtails under £500” end of the market…
Maybe just mix it up, lot's of us are at least a bit interested in reading about things we can't afford (Until it turns up used a few years later), But yeah more affordable kit reviews might be nice...
I'd actually quite like to see them do a piece where they give each of their Journo's a £1K budget and ask them to imagine they were just Starting MTBing with no bike or kit; go out and buy a bike and riding kit within that fixed budget, not just a bike but accessories like lids, pedals shoes, clothing, tools/pumps, bags etc...
Basically everything a "noob" would be looking at, and then make them do a few different routes/rides/trailcentre trips together and see how things shake out...
I'd be interested to see Just what "Experienced" individuals with their own bias' towards different disciplines would actually choose, what compromises they might make (because getting all the toys isn't going to happen for under £1K) and how they actually then get on using that for the sort of varied riding someone new to MTBing might want to take on...
Even with a garage full of bikes, spares and kit I'd find that an interesting bit of research... but that's just me.
I am not going to ever spend that type of cash but still nice to see companies pushing boundaries and the technology involved. That stuff if eventually going to trickle down and will be relevant to you.
I agree.
But not to the exclusion of everything else.
I've bought the mag since the very early days and it appealed to everyone who loved riding bikes.
That's been changed. Deliberately.
It's now aimed at the affluent minority.
Ever read 'Bike' or 'Car' magazines? They run tests of everything, from the cheap stuff to the fantasy tackle.
Good, honest journalism should appeal to everyone.
STW doesn't do that anymore.
I recall hearing the same pish about dropper posts, 11 speed.... Blah blah blah....
Stop greetin.
You forgot to link to the article.
There you go 😉
Thanks for the link, interesting read. I won't buy any of the bikes, so I guess I should start a thread about it?
🙂
So, your opinion Andi?
I won’t buy any of the bikes, so I guess I should start a thread about it?
You're being deliberately obtuse.
I like this place. But chasing the high end has changed it and not for the better.
I saw the link and the only thought that occurred to me was not to click it. It wasn't even enough of a thought to be a decision.
You know that programme on BBC2 at the moment, where they restore and fix old things, but never tell you the price? I see relevance, but I'm not sure where. 😆 Oh yes, hat Fox thing, would've been quite interesting if it wasn't such stupid money (and it's not an "I can't afford it thing" it's a even if I could, I wouldn't be that much of a **** with my money)
Yeah, I feel more "alienated" by over 300quid for a jacket.
Times are hard, everywhere apart from STW Towers, apparently.
This has no relevance to anyone I know.
Time's arent hard for me, or indeed anyone I know.
I dont want to read about poverty spec hardtails. This actually looks interesting.
Time’s arent hard for me, or indeed anyone I know.
I dont want to read about poverty spec hardtails.
Yea, but we all know your a troll so you really are going to have to try harder than a bit of "I'm alright Jack".
p.s. use some bloody apostrophes.
Time’s arent hard for me, or indeed anyone I know.
I dont want to read about poverty spec hardtails. This actually looks interesting.
I don't care how you choose to spend your money on pointless toss.
I'd quite like a cycling magazine that represents all of us, not just ****ers with more money than sense.
"So, your opinion Andi?"
Not Andi's opinion, but mine. Let me know what you reckon.
Fox Live Valve – Is It Better Than Turning The Knobs Yourself? Maybe Not.
As for reviewing cheaper things - it's rare the manufacturers have less than the top-end models in their review fleet (the same as media-fleet cars come with ALL of the optional extras fitted) as they want to show off how good/light/fancy their bikes are. However, we've gone out of our way to review less obvious, less expensive, things like - the alloy versions of fancy carbon bikes (like the Tallboy LT that Barney reviewed, or the Nomad in the current issue). Issue 117 had a test of fully rigid hardtails that started at £750, and we've often championed bikes like the Calibre Bossnut. I even rode the 50 mile Mary Towneley Loop on a £75 hardtail for a feature. I didn't die or anything... 🙂
I like Cookeaa's 'Starter for a grand' idea. I'll add that to our 'Doing things on a budget' list of feature ideas like our 'One Ton Challenge'.
At the end of the day, many people read Top Gear for the Ferrari reviews, but buy a Fiesta.
At the end of the day, many people read Top Gear for the Ferrari reviews, but buy a Fiesta.
I especially like it when they review a Ferrari and tell us they'd have more fun in a fast Ford. Interesting, honest review - thanks.
I bought that £75 hard tail from you, remember? 🙂
As for reviewing cheaper things – it’s rare the manufacturers have less than the top-end models in their review fleet (the same as media-fleet cars come with ALL of the optional extras fitted) as they want to show off how
Oh come on, it's your choice. If you said you'd like a budget build, they'd provide one. You have a fully equipped workshop, you can review anything you want.
At the end of the day, many people read Top Gear for the Ferrari reviews, but buy a Fiesta.
Great. Do you want to be a mag that appeals to fantasists or one that actually does what you claim to do and represent real people riding bikes?
I like Cookeaa’s ‘Starter for a grand’ idea. I’ll add that to our ‘Doing things on a budget’ list of feature ideas
I suspect the forum backlash to that would be down to the fact that the forum probably owns a lot of that kit already. You couldn't do a review of a On-one Fatty Vs a Calibre Dune for example, because there's already a million page thread dissecting both in minute detail.
Stuff like live valve is novel and interesting, albeit horrendously expensive,and novel and interesting makes for interesting articles because people don't already know everything there is to know about them*. But then there's probably plenty of <£1k hardtails and <£2k FS bikes (even an alloy Santa Cruz is only going to be affordable for the 1%, or more likely a fraction of the 1%) from relatively unknown brands that would make equally interesting reviews because not only do people have no idea how the Calibre or Canyon £750 hardtails ride, but they might actually buy one as n+1 so every reader is a potential customer. A point you could put to the marketing person at those brands when they offer you another £5k carbon superbike which a favourable review might sell a few of.
*the flipside of this, you're fighting for readers with Pinkbike, Bike Radar etc. Once I've read it somewhere I'm not going to read it twice.
I'm really interested in this - whether I can afford it or not is irrelevant - I wouldn't spend that much on a bike - but I find the development of the technology really interesting and it will eventually lead to a system with real benefits - eg ability to adjust damping and spring curve - but this is a step on the way (and actually you could theoretically achieve damping and spring adjustment with an on/off valve but one with much faster effects than this has).
Great review by STW. Interested to read other bike mags' reviews to see what they think as STW's view was pretty much what I expected to hear - it does what it says it will but it's debateable whether that's worthwhile, especially for the cost.
I never thought I'd be able to get an HB160. Then I could thanks to a decent insurance policy (Barclays Cycle cover with accidental damage cover), selling some parts and a 0% card.
So yes, it is kinda relevant to some of us. Although to be fair, the HB is a good chunk less than most of the Live Valve bikes, top of the range models from other manufacturers, and the electric Orange filing cabinet, so you may have a small point.
it’s technology for technology’s sake.
Yup.
Thing about comparing it with expensive bike tests - at least expensive bikes are pretty (or ugly) to look at.
I get the pushing the boundaries thing, but this is 3k for something that's very complex to operate only the lockout. It just doesn't seem like a finished product. I wonder if Fox ballsed up the R&D and are trying to recoup as much as they can
They already have the tech via ShockWiz to know how to adjust compression and rebound. I wonder if they meant for that to go in there as well?
I work in automotive stuff, and the hardest thing to develop is the bits of tech the driver interacts with. Traction control on the McLaren is a good example. Tiff Needel had a big falling out with them because when he reviewed the car it tried to correct his intentional drift...
I'd imagine trying to adjust shocks on the fly has similar difficulties. To enjoy riding a bike it needs to be predictable and that gets a lot more difficult if the shock keeps changing the way it performs.
They've clearly thrown a lot of money at marketing given the number of stories about it on every bike site and social media account (e.g. sponsored riders plugging it as well)
I agree - it looks like a beta-testing offering to the market. I can understand why they're trying that route though.
Not Andi’s opinion, but mine. Let me know what you reckon.
Ok.
Suspension is quite simple. It takes a couple of hours max to read about and understand spring rates,, preload, sag, damping etc.
And understanding is the key.
Two hours of sitting down and reading about something Vs the constant promotion of pointless toss?
It's your job. I understand. And you're a nice bloke.
But don't expect everyone to agree.
You're accusing the magazine that had a "Bike Porn" page as far back as 2001 of suddenly featuring expensive bikes and becoming aspirational? I think you must have missed all the issues every published. Singletrack has always appealed to the top end of the market in its content.
Tiff Needel had a big falling out with them because when he reviewed the car it tried to correct his intentional drift
Sure, but is it faster with the traction control turned on or off? My money is that it's faster with it turned on.
I love the write-up Chipps, and this thread has pointed me to something I would otherwise have missed! Although your comment about paying someone to run alongside and flick a lockout lever for you is clearly very exclusionist and really has no place in a magazine for the people... 😉
Fwiw, I read Pinkbike a couple of times a month. I *never* buy anything they review, because they're always focusing on high-end or downhill stuff, but I like feeling informed about what's new, and I enjoy the writing.
After years of speculation and rumour
see, I would read an article full of speculation and rumour. I might even pay for it
Given the "show us your ebike" thread is now massive, and many of the bikes are north of £5k I'd be willing to bet rusty's money that the folks who could afford it outweigh the ones that can't on this forum
I’ve a suspicion that STW (and most other consumer type media) probably believe that there’s a correlation between those demanding kit reviews of the budget end of the market and those who go out of their way to avoid paying for content.
Essentially if you’re not willing/able to pay for X then you’re not going to be willing/able to pay for Y so why should they bother tailoring Y to you?
I might be way off but focussing on the cheapest available options doesn’t seem like a great idea for an industry struggling to find a way to monetise it’s product when there are so many free/cheaper alternatives.
Someone on here will have a live valve bike the day it hits the shops. Guaranteed
My money is on Tom Howard, a man who obviously appreciates the finer things in life when it comes to bicycles.
I don't see an issue with it tbh. As far as I can see it'll go 2 ways..
1 - the most likely.. It won't really take off, and never be seen again
2 - if it's genuinely that good it becomes bog standard equipment on any decent bike in a few years time, a bit like a dropper post. The cost I assume is in the development.
In 3 years time it'll either be redundant tech or something we'll all be riding without paying a premium.
Either way it's more relevant to me than 'what bike packing handlebar luggage' or something similarly dull.
They already have the tech via ShockWiz to know how to adjust compression and rebound. I wonder if they meant for that to go in there as well?
<cynic mode>
Theyre saving that for next year to make all the 2019 versions obsolete so you have to buy a new one
</cynic mode>
My money is on Tom Howard
Nah, I’m just finalising the build spec for a deviate guide, which will be ordered this week.
i tried Ei a few years ago, as I said above, it wasn’t a game changer, though it was nice
didn't k2 proflex do something similar back in the mid 90's?
that is absolutely ****in tragic. I really can't believe this is a thing. Some sort of electric doofer to set up your suspension on a pedal bike. C'mon tae **** people, have a bit of respect for yourselves.
Shuffles off muttering.
The same as anyone else, ST has a need to generate readers. People like, and read these stories, so they will carry on publishing them; it's not rocket science, whether you agree with it or not.
If you don't like the stories, it's easy enough not to read them. There are plenty of other stories knocking around that are for 'real people riding real bikes' - whoever they are. Actually, what's the definition? As I write for the mag occasionally I guess I'm not 'real'. What about some of my riding mates? The ones who work in actual industry in actual factories and get most of their kit off eBay? I think they'd qualify as more 'real' than most people on here. They still want to hear about the shiny stuff occasionally... They've got nice bikes too.
And just for clarity I've never reviewed a Tallboy LT. I used to own one though - great bike.
The same as anyone else, ST has a need to generate readers. People like, and read these stories, so they will carry on publishing them; it’s not rocket science, whether you agree with it or not.
Fine. How about writing about bikes and kit that people actually use, rather than some marketing blokes wet dream?
If you don’t like the stories, it’s easy enough not to read them. There are plenty of other stories knocking around that are for ‘real people riding real bikes’ – whoever they are.
Cool. Where? I'd love to read an inclusive version of STW. But there isn't one.
I write for the mag occasionally I guess I’m not ‘real’. What about some of my riding mates? The ones who work in actual industry in actual factories and get most of their kit off eBay? I think they’d qualify as more ‘real’ than most people on here. They still want to hear about the shiny stuff occasionally… They’ve got nice bikes too.
I've met you. You seem like a decent bloke.
Not all of us get discounts.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">What about some of my riding mates? The ones who work in actual industry in actual factories and get most of their kit off eBay? I think they’d qualify as more ‘real’ than most people on here. </span>
In the bike industry? You expect them to be objective? No, they're not real people.
Real people have to scrimp and save. Real people get a bit pissed off when every pointless new standard is hailed as the second coming. Real people get a bit annoyed when you laugh at us for not following the latest trends. And most of all, real people get a bit fed up of being patronised.
Personally I have no problem with reading about tech like this. Hell, it's relevant to mountain bikes so why not cover it?
Crucially it allows me to form an opinion about tech without ever actually trying it....so I can make disparaging remarks without any real foundation.
See below! Lol
For what it's worth though,I reckon this will be a tech that we look back on in 10 years along the lines of "remember then this junk came out, who got stung?" 😃
How about writing about bikes and kit that people actually use, rather than some marketing blokes wet dream?
What about a mix of the two? Most of the general mag ride/travel articles dont really make a big thing about the kit used beyond it being a bike. The bike packing with kids in the last mag being a good example.
In terms of news articles another sensibly priced and specced bike isnt really going to be worth a story and would need them publishing multiple articles each day.
I would be rather bored and pissed off if the mag consisted solely of things along the lines of fox live valve but it isnt. Since some of this kit may trickle down into the more sensibly priced bracket over time I am not sure of the harm of a couple of news stories covering the top end kit.
The electronic suspension is an curious reinvention of an idea which has been tried before. Who knows maybe this time it will work better and make more sense. I would tend towards no but its worth the news article none the less.
In terms of news articles another sensibly priced and specced bike isnt really going to be worth a story and would need them publishing multiple articles each day.
How many articles on the front page about this irrelevant nonsense? It didn't used to be like this.
I'd love to see some tests of 'sensibly priced and specced' bikes.
Real people, ha, it's a bloody magazine! 🤣
How many articles on the front page about this irrelevant nonsense? It didn’t used to be like this.
All bike websites carry the same stories - Pinkbike, Bikeradar, singletrackworld etc. You find identical topics all the time. Presumably they have to compete, but same content on all sites is boring.
Product news and sponsored riders video stuff may be the same, it's why I go to Pinkbike first, but they don't get or create the UK stuff that makes STW different.
And Bikeradar is a world of roadie pants. ( just my opinion).
“How many articles on the front page about this irrelevant nonsense? It didn’t used to be like this.”
I’m sorry but we’ve never been the magazine you think we were.
All I want is a bar mounted lockout for my rear shock.
MTB's are woefully engineered as it is, I don't wan't some woefully written code randomly adjusting rebound/compression based on the last bump it hit.
Did I miss anyone inventing an integrated lock out & dropper lever? When you drop the saddle it opens up the fork and shock and that's it. The usual issue with lockouts is that you've forgotten to unlock them after a climb, so dropping the seat is a big clue that it's time to get loose. Probably doable for less than 3 grand and N years work, and you'd still need the right fork/shock/dropper to use it so they'd still make a few quid.
(yes I know that's not quite the point of the live valve but...)
Ah OK - shows how easy it is to miss these things when they don't get blanket coverage from the mags and websites 🙂
I know the Specialized Brain only does the rear shock (although didn't their Future Shock do front and rear?) but I wonder how much different in feel this is to the Brain system.
I've got it on my Stumpjumper FSR and really like it. Rock solid on firm stuff and opens as soon as things get bumpy.
Like the "kill switch", I bet with some bodging you could make one of those.
Is it worth doing? Nah. Still like the idea though.
I think they’d qualify as more ‘real’ than most people on here. They still want to hear about the shiny stuff occasionally… They’ve got nice bikes too.
My mates are more 'real' than your mates... Awesome 🙂
Mavic did electronic shifting 20 years ago. Everybody laughed when it failed to make it big.
Look at shifting now in the TDF......
I don’t wan’t some woefully written code randomly adjusting rebound/compression based on the last bump it hit.
It doesn't adjust rebound and compression, it only locks the fork out on smooth stuff and unlocks it when you hit a bump.
My mates are more ‘real’ than your mates… Awesome
Yeah, what an absolute arsehole. Me, that is.
Apologies, Barney. Chipps too. Completely unnecessary and well out of order.
Sorry for being a dick. 😶
It's been an interesting outpouring...
I for one am looking forward for a review of 3 second hand steel hardtails with mismatched groupsets not for sale any more.