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Apart from the fact that the majority of horse riders are female of course.
You get that from one obviously very affluent village?
But beside the point...
I live in horse riding land, neighbours each side of me own horses and I would estimate that a quarter of the village ride horses. How many of those are men? 1. Yes, 1.
So they are exposed to horses their whole lives (and if its 1/4 of the village then presumably someone is doing the shit horsey jobs for these rich people)
You are practically living on another planet in your village if you think most people would feed and stable a horse instead of their children.
What exactly do you mean by "ride horses"... I ride horses I just don't really do it as a leisure activity but I'm perfectly happy to be paid to ride or trot one round the sand school if I'm paid.
My friend owns several stables and doesn't like riding .. she rides because the horses need exercising or training and she's paid to do it but she'd rather strip and rebuild an engine for leisure. This is 2021, she's allowed...
Given 1/2 a choice I'd rather trot Alfie the old cart horse round the field with a head bridle and blanket instead one of the daft nervous thoroughbreds because he's an old mate and lovely and calm.
No-one’s consciously slaving away doing something they hate and looking wistfully out of the window at the surfers or bikers and thinking ‘I wish I could do that but I’m a girl’. At least, not in this country I’m sure. I’m talking about subconscious conditioning which leads people not to bother even thinking about the biking or the sewing etc as something they could do – they don’t think they’ll enjoy it, because they think it’s not for them.
Then why did you never take up ski-jumping or least least give it a go?
The point is it's got sod all to do with gender... and a lot to do with no ski jumps.
Actually, I can give a couple of good examples here:
1. Society says that eating meat is macho, masculine, tough, etc – hence why most vegetarians/vegans are women (because they can see through or aren’t affected by that conditioning), and why you end up with pejorative terms like “soy boy” and so on. However, I grew up with a dad who was, and still is, vegetarian – so seeing that as a primary influence meant that the notion of men who don’t eat meat as weak held less sway, which made it very easy for me to go vegan.
Erm really?
Eating meat is YUMMY and we evolved to do it and because of it, that's why we eat meat.
hence why most vegetarians/vegans are women (because they can see through or aren’t affected by that conditioning)
Or some people have fallen for believing that we didn't ? If that was the case you'd be saying that's because women are more susceptible to being brainwashed ???
Don't get me wrong ... it's 2021 and if people want to be vegan or vegetarian we have supplements, its not "required" any more.
However, I grew up with a dad who was, and still is, vegetarian – so seeing that as a primary influence meant that the notion of men who don’t eat meat as weak held less sway, which made it very easy for me to go vegan.
So was your mother an omnivore? Was it just your dad?
A far far simpler explanation is you didn't grow up eating meat and its 2021 ... and its got sod all to do with your gender.
People should stop name calling and saying people are Trolls and actually debate and ask for clarification rather than being rude.
So I think its clear that peoples exposure to certain activities will have an impact on the sorts of things that they do. As would the financial situation for some sports/pastimes too.
No one has presented any evidence to the balance of social conditioning by gender vs nurture has on what people choose to do.
Also most of the people on here being men seem to be pretty content with the choices they have made irrespective of the impact of the the nature nurture argument. They just don't feel unhappy about it. So if they don't feel unhappy do they actually have a problem?
So if the answer to the above is no they don't have a problem then what makes them think women have a problem with their choices regardless of how those choices were made?
I am not claiming to know the answers to those questions by the way.
Wow, I wonder what the 3 riders would think of the typefest their little promo video for denim shorts has provoked.
Forcing people to do something they don’t want to isn’t positive in my book.
Molgrips
How on EARTH could you possibly think that this is what’s being suggested?
Is this suggested or is that where it leads?
I don't want the person to take offense that spent ages trying to convince me I can draw and assumed I'd like to be able to because I 100% believe they were doing what they thought "right".
I HATE drawing... I'd rather have my teeth pulled.
In the larger context and not trying to go off on one but I HATED SCHOOL .. completely and utterly and it was a complete waste of time and probably left me scarred for life... yet a lot of people want to "recondition me"... I'm somehow at fault because I hated school.
I don't like sewing... it's not a leisure activity for me... why try and convince me otherwise.
I do sew and I own a sewing machine but not because I enjoy it but someone has to do it and the OH detests sewing... I just view it as a.n. other boring job that needs doing.
I sew, weld, plaster (probably lots more) ... I don't mind any but they are just jobs someone has to do I hate drawing and NOTHING is going to change that.
because “only women are allowed to have an opinion”
Honestly – what the ****? I can’t conceive how you could possibly think this is what people are suggesting!
How many times on this thread alone has it been said the problem is white males?
Simple question then?
Is my son's mother telling her sister she should be doing extreme sports because she's a woman sexist?
The only people I hear telling girls and women what they can and can't do today are other women.
(admittedly if I worked for BC I'd probably hear this every day but then BC is a old school sexist organisation to the core)
Again ... this is 2021.
Heck even in the bad ole 2020's when fleet opened the pump track it had LOADS of females.
Bloody brilliant... and so far as I know they didn't advertise any women specific stuff.
I specifically remember a lady from before the last lockdown ... she was well into being clinically obese but she didn't let that or her gender stop her... noone said "you shouldn't be doing this" indeed many of us remarked how well she was progressing and encouraged her
Let me give you all a tip – if you read a well reasoned argument on the internet and it seems absolutely preposterous – that probably means you haven’t got the point. OutOfBreath, you are apparently interpreting my argument as being absurd, but if you give me a bit of credit for my intelligence you should go back and read again. You’ve understood more or less the exact opposite of what I really mean.
Or ... and stop and think.
There is a well rehearsed argument on the internet spread about with arguments like "you are not allowed an opinion" ...
Lets imagine you answer the question to yourself as to why it is in my experience exclusively women telling other women/girls what they can and can't do in MTB because of their gender?
Have you honestly EVER heard a bloke say "girls can't ride DH" because I have heard plenty of mums say it and say its why they can't ride either.
The real issue is that you are saying ‘men this’ and ‘women that’. That is the root cause of this. It’s futile but also damaging to say that. If I said ‘men like outdoorsy things’ that would be just as wrong as saying ‘women like outdoorsy things’. Because some men and some women do, and other men and other women also don’t. You can like whatever you like (obviously!!!) but you must not talk in generic terms about genders, because that then leads to the kind of social condition that leads to people not realising that they might like something.
I suspect that there are some angry dolphins here...
From what I read OOB is simply challenging your preconceptions.
if you read a well reasoned argument on the internet
Erm, I see plenty as I'm sure you do if you think wider .. flat earth, religion, 29ers ???
What is common is selective quoting and telling people what they can and can't say.
(I was going to add brexit but then realised there is no reasoned argument... )
At least the first two of those looks reasoned because its well practiced and because those who disagree are sanctioned/cancelled.
Also most of the people on here being men seem to be pretty content with the choices they have made irrespective of the impact of the the nature nurture argument. They just don’t feel unhappy about it. So if they don’t feel unhappy do they actually have a problem?
So if the answer to the above is no they don’t have a problem then what makes them think women have a problem with their choices regardless of how those choices were made?
This.
Also, I feel I'm being sucked into the horse riding rabbit hole. Horse riding is a bad example of a gender specific hobby. Yes, women out number men by a large degree but men are still commonplace. If a man says "I'm going out for a hack this afternoon" nobody does a double take. Male jockeys out number female jockeys. In contrast I reckon if a bloke said he had some sewing to do or that he was having a few mates over for some wine and chocolate watching Strictly it would be considered unusual. As I say the examples don't really matter, but if we're going to complain about stuff we've been conditioned away from we might as well pick stuff that we *really* don't do.
You are practically living on another planet in your village if you think most people would feed and stable a horse instead of their children.
Where have I said that and what has that got to do with anything anyway?
Yes owning a horse tends to be for the wealthier in society but that is irrelevant in this discussion. When it comes to horse riding, female riders are in the majority so directly to your point of saying it is not gender related, you are clearly incorrect.
How do you explain this;
2 Sept 2019 — Two thirds of the 29,731 athletes in the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) database of competitors in the Olympics disciplines of dressage, eventing and jumping were females, with 83.10% in dressage, 73.175% in eventing and 61.311% in jumping,
Where have I said that and what has that got to do with anything anyway?
Yes owning a horse tends to be for the wealthier in society but that is irrelevant in this discussion. When it comes to horse riding, female riders are in the majority so directly to your point of saying it is not gender related, you are clearly incorrect.
How do you explain this;
2 Sept 2019 — Two thirds of the 29,731 athletes in the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) database of competitors in the Olympics disciplines of dressage, eventing and jumping were females, with 83.10% in dressage, 73.175% in eventing and 61.311% in jumping,
A hobby where 1/3 of the participants is male is still a poor example of a gender specific hobby. In contrast no man has *ever* attended my wife's sewing/knitting group. If a bloke ever did it would be well worthy of comment. There are plenty of things that overwhelmingly interest one gender. Horse riding wouldn't make the top 1000.
How do you explain this;
2 Sept 2019 — Two thirds of the 29,731 athletes in the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) database of competitors in the Olympics disciplines of dressage, eventing and jumping were females, with 83.10% in dressage, 73.175% in eventing and 61.311% in jumping,
Pretty simply ..
a) in the Olympics disciplines
b) I'm pretty sure the gender of the "athletes" hasn't been considered, just the people sat on their back. You might want to split the genders up to include geldings...
If you want to do this globally (FEI) then you need to include agrarian societies and non Olympic events.
My Canadian mate rides horses .. he uses them to check on the cattle over tens of thousands of acres and he also rides rodeo but that's not an Olympic event.
You might want to include for example the Cadre Noir or the Viennese one who's name escapes me.
Are they part of the FEI?
Same as cycling...
The only people I hear telling girls and women what they can and can’t do today are other women.
I’m not getting involved in this as it’s going round in circles, but I do feel the need to say that as a woman that definitely isn’t my experience.
There are far better examples than horse riding.
There sure are, was just debating a clearly incorrect statement that horse riding doesn't have a gender in-balance.
Have to say I wish I hadn't bothered as it seems to have kicked off a number of overly long and very confused replies so I will step away now.
It was my mum who taught me how to mend a puncture back in rural South Africa in the early 80’s (while my dad was disinterestedly off doing his own thing]. This was because she got tired of mending all the kids’ punctures in the cul de sac. She’s 75 now, and still rides everyday. For every stereotype, there’s a wonderful exception.
There sure are, was just debating a clearly incorrect statement that horse riding doesn’t have a gender in-balance.
The people I see on horses from stables are women, very rarely men.
The only people I see grazing their horses on wasteland and trotting through them local estate are men. I don't recall ever seeing a woman doing this.
I don't know what point I'm making here. 😀
lapierrelady
Full Member
Can I suggest a little light reading of Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez?Posted 14 hours ago
Ironically a load of (I think/assume) blokes debate a gender point while a post from a (I think/assume) woman saying read 'Invisible Women' goes, er, seemingly unnoticed.
There are plenty of things that overwhelmingly interest one gender.
But why is that? And do you believe that riding bikes should be one of them? Because otherwise, you seem to have propagated a gender argument for 5 pages detracting from the original post which was both interesting and potentially useful for those (male or female) interested in helping address any underlying bias.
But why is that?
Well, I don't go to "knit night" because it doesn't interest me. My wife goes because it interests her. Perhaps she and I are part of a pattern?
And do you believe that riding bikes should be one of the?
I don't agree with the premise that cycling overwhelmingly interests one gender, on the trails I ride it's 50/50. Cycling is about as egalitarian as you can get, almost everyone from two and a half upwards can cycle and most do. But yeah, if (say) men overwhelmingly decided overnight they didn't want to cycle any more I wouldn't lose sleep over it any more than I worry that fewer men enjoy Dirty Dancing than women or that fewer women make Airfix models of Lancaster Bombers. As we can see from this thread everyone is pretty happy with the hobbies their conditioning (or whatever) has selected for them.
She’s 75 now, and still rides everyday. For every stereotype, there’s a wonderful exception.
My mum is 75 and doesn't ride every day but *does* do two 50km+ rides each week with a cycle group. Judging by her FB pics 75yo women who ride a lot are not remotely exceptional.
I don’t agree with the premise that cycling overwhelmingly interests one gender, on the trails I ride it’s 50/50.
Interesting, where I ride it is nowhere near that. I would estimate it at around 10%
This suggests 66%/33% at best https://blog.nature.org/science/2016/08/29/the-science-behind-cyclings-enormous-gender-discrepancy/#:~:text=There%20have%20also%20been%20a,1%2C%20and%20most%20often%20worse.
I don’t agree with the premise that cycling overwhelmingly interests one gender,
good - we all agree on something
on the trails I ride it’s 50/50.
OK, so that's where it gets interesting, because that's not what I see. I haven't done any proper measurement but my gut feel is:
Commuting/transport cycling around town - perhaps getting closest to 50/50 but I still think >50% male
Road cycling (drop bars, lycra making progress!) - probably 90% male
Track cycling (I've not been with my kids for about 5 years), but was predominantly male unless a specific "girls" session -- yet our women do very well internationally
Serious MTB trail centres (7-stanes etc) - maybe 70+% male? probably "worse" is you exclude family groups.
Local MTB trails - probably 80+% male, and I think 95% if not including families. i.e. teenage girls and twenty something women are just not going there...
Local kids just mucking about without parents (not necessarily "going cycling - but going somewhere and taking their bikes" - 99% male - I genuinely can't remember when I last saw a teenage girl in a group that has a bike with them, but I frequently see boys in this camp).
cCycling is about as egalitarian as you can get, almost everyone from two and a half upwards can cycle
agreed (although I bet even the starts for people who don't learn to cycle have a little gender bias).
and most do.
do they though? is that true?
across all age groups?
But yeah, if (say) men overwhelmingly decided overnight they didn’t want to cycle any more I wouldn’t lose sleep over it
I don't think anyone is asking YOU to lose sleep over it, just to stop shouting down people who are genuinely interested if there is a particular reason and if that should be addressed.
any more than I worry that fewer men enjoy Dirty Dancing than women or that fewer women make Airfix models of Lancaster Bombers.
If I worked for Airfix I'd really want to know if there was a way to market my models that would appeal to, and therefore increase my sales of kits. If I was trying to promote a dance class I might well want to understand whether using Dirty Dancing analogies / imagery would aid or hinder me capturing the widest possible audience. And if I was thinking of making a hit movie about Dancing, I might even see if there was an angle about gender stereotypes that I could work into it. Who knows maybe I'd end up with another classic that sells out on the big screen and moves to stage.
As we can see from this thread everyone is pretty happy with the hobbies their conditioning (or whatever) has selected for them.
A predominantly male (moderately affluent) group of people with an interest in mountain bikes is happy that they have access to cycling! Do you understand sample bias? However there are infinite "hobbies" and we can't do them all - what matters to me is that people shouldn't be put off participation in cycling (and I personally care far more about participation at the simplest level of recreation/transport than sport) for the wrong reasons. If there is a conscious choice that's probably OK - but an unconscious bias is where it becomes puzzling. If it's because of a social stigma it becomes concerning. You may insist that you don't believe there is any stigma and that in fact everywhere you look there are just as many boys and girls, men and women, grannies and granddads cycling but I don't think that's representative of the country - so you either live in some wonderful bubble or have chosen not to see what is around you. If it's the latter you are part of the problem that reinforces the stigma. More people cycling helps with road safety, improves access rights, makes us all healthier etc - so is something we should all strive for.
.
My mum is 75 and doesn’t ride every day but *does* do two 50km+ rides each week with a cycle group. Judging by her FB pics 75yo women who ride a lot are not remotely exceptional.
OK - now we know you are taking the piss, and just wasting everyone's time. Nobody has that poor a grasp of sample bias.
kerley
There sure are, was just debating a clearly incorrect statement that horse riding doesn’t have a gender in-balance.
No you weren't you were posting international numbers for Olympic events that involve horses to say more women ride horses than men.
How do you explain this;
2 Sept 2019 — Two thirds of the 29,731 athletes in the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) database of competitors in the Olympics disciplines of dressage, eventing and jumping were females, with 83.10% in dressage, 73.175% in eventing and 61.311% in jumping,
That no more valid than me posting the number of men vs women riding horses at Agincourt to try and prove the inverse or female vs male riders in Mongolia or as I said people who just ride horses every day because that's their job.
OK – now we know you are taking the piss, and just wasting everyone’s time. Nobody has that poor a grasp of sample bias.
Really ?
2 Sept 2019 — Two thirds of the 29,731 athletes in the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) database of competitors in the Olympics disciplines of dressage, eventing and jumping were females, with 83.10% in dressage, 73.175% in eventing and 61.311% in jumping,
Thanks for the reasonable post Poly. You're coming at this from a POV of wanting more women to cycle. No quarrel with that, evangelism for your hobby is always good.
As for the exact numbers cycling, a 33/66 split seems entirely plausible, no quarrel with that either.
My point is more:
Also most of the people on here being men seem to be pretty content with the choices they have made irrespective of the impact of the the nature nurture argument. They just don’t feel unhappy about it. So if they don’t feel unhappy do they actually have a problem?
So if the answer to the above is no they don’t have a problem then what makes them think women have a problem with their choices regardless of how those choices were made?
but an unconscious bias is where it becomes puzzling. If it’s because of a social stigma it becomes concerning
Why does it matter ?
I know our Surrey CC schools cycling coordinator very well. (for reasons totally unrelated to cycling)
Everyone is given the chance but you can't force people who don't want to (unlike say football)
They all get the chance at a very early age if for whatever reason they don't take it up why assume a hidden reason.
Take a completely different activity.. lets say all kids are given the opportunity to learn an instrument but for some reason Oboe is 85% boys and Flute is 85% girls ???
(I completely randomly picked two orchestral instruments and numbers) for the sake of the explanation lets say the instrument is chosen from a hat.
Why does this balance need to be redressed ?
Should they all put the tickets back in the hat until they get something close to 50/50?
5 years later a percentage are still playing an instrument ? Say 30% of Oboe and 60% of flute%
You can/could imply or infer this has something to do with gender... due to the initial split but it could equally be the Oboe was just a pain to carry? Perhaps it does and the girls just moved on faster? decided to concentrate on school work?
There could be all sorts of reasons and the most important thing is actually they are happy without the outcome.
Not EVERYONE wants to play an instrument... out of those that do not all of them want to play it MORE than doing something else. (whatever that something else is)
For young kids probably the reason most might drop out might be simply because they want to hang out with their friends not practice an instrument. Who knows ??? Surely its more important they had an opportunity and their reasons for not keeping it up are up to them so long as they are happy?
dup post
This thread really is a window into another world isn't it. Not wonder equal rights is so hard to achieve. Staggering really.
Who cares? I care, and I think others will too. You’ve illustrated a very good point there, I think that what ever the driving force it is that you’ve identified above is at least worth knowing about. The current generation of people may be happy with their outcomes, but I for one don’t want to see participants being lost in a way which affects demographics unequally in that way.
If girls/women are finding more fun elsewhere, then that’s fine, I’m not about to wrestle them off their horse and make them enjoy cycling instead (although it would keep the bridleways cleaner), but I think it’s worth listening to the people who have had the experience of being a minority in cycling and why others like them may not be so inclined to stick with the hobby. I enjoy cycling, and I’d like others to as well. I want my sport to be inclusive, and not selective. Diversity is a good thing and asking ourselves why we’re lacking it is important.
I suspect that there are cultural/societal aspects which drive that far more than the activity itself. And if that is the case then... maybe as members of the cycling community that could be something that we get to influence.
Maybe we should start by listening more to the people who have had this experience for themselves. Thanks to the women who’ve commented previously.
@steve-xtc
Really ?
He picked bad stats to illustrate his point - but it does seem that overall he was probably right:
https://www.britishequestrian.org.uk/getInvolved/equality-diversity
As for the exact numbers cycling, a 33/66 split seems entirely plausible, no quarrel with that either.
that's a very optimistic number and certainly doesn't include all "flavours" of cycling.
Cycling UK report that on average men travel 3x as far as women on bikes each year: https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/campaigns-guide/women-cycling
My point is more:
Also most of the people on here being men seem to be pretty content with the choices they have made irrespective of the impact of the the nature nurture argument. They just don’t feel unhappy about it. So if they don’t feel unhappy do they actually have a problem?
So if the answer to the above is no they don’t have a problem then what makes them think women have a problem with their choices regardless of how those choices were made?
Your argument is flawed for a number of reasons:
- I don't think people make conscious decisions about the hobbies they fall into (especially teenagers as per the OP - we do the things our parents/friends/teachers do (or encourage us to do)).
- I don't think you have to be unhappy with the things you are doing to have missed an opportunity to do something else
- What you are saying is if one group of people is happy with their lot in life, then the other groups must be too.
Dismissing the possibility of a structural gender imbalance prevents any possible way of redreessing it. Perhaps geometries or saddles are just wrong for women. Perhaps (some) bike shops are not welcoming / helpful to women. Perhaps the bike industry peddles poorer quality (heavier, slower, etc) kit at women by painting it in pastel shades - but giving them a less enjoyable experience. Perhaps cynical bits of the media/society are over-emphasising the need to become barbie dolls to 12 yr olds and make up and bikes don't mix. Perhaps parents are more likely to buy a teenage boy a new bike - and a girl something else. Perhaps some men are really unwelcoming at trail centres. Perhaps some men are lecherous (there's at least one comment on this thread about denim hotpants!) of women on bikes. Perhaps some car drivers are even less tolerant to women on the roads. OR perhaps as Molgrips said we reinforce societal stereotypes so that the perceived barrier for a girl/woman who wants to get involved is way higher than it needs to be.
So even if girls/women have chosen not to ride, why would you accept the factors that lead them to the choice are just how life should be. Why can someone not start a thread highlighting something that addresses an imbalance without it being (as you imply in your first post on the thread) that "its just not in their nature".
And of course, those barriers work both ways - there's probably a flower arranging website somewhere discussing how to get more men involved. Just because there are some things you are less likely to find men doing, doesn't (a) mean they wouldn't actually enjoy / be good at them (b) mean we shouldn't try to address gender imbalance for women.
Right I'm out - or I'm going to have to put a helmet on as I keep banging my head on the desk.
I think it’s worth listening to the people who have had the experience of being a minority in cycling and why others like them may not be so inclined to stick with the hobby.
Agreed but then you also need to listen to those who simply lost interest or had another interest be more important.
Then IMHO you need to be very careful not to suggest to limit the choices they made because of your bias even though you might not like their answers.
I'm being blunt and hopefully not rude but many of those answers will probably be "its borin innit" or "I was more interested in boys/boy bands" and dare I even suggest "I only did cycling cos we couldn't afford a horse"
Lets say there was a national survey on pet ownership and it turns out more males prefer cats or dogs to females? (whichever it turns out)
Do we need to fix it? I suspect many answers would be "I'm too busy to care for a pet"... and many others might actually be "because I had one as a child"
So its IMPORTANT that females who want to cycle aren't put off because of cultural pressure but its also just as important that "it wasn't interesting to me" is perfectly acceptable.
One of my mates daughters has just got to 13... she's up for riding but as a purely social activity and myself and my mate think its a shame she drops out of competitive DH (as she's quite good) but more important she had the opportunity and can go back to riding if/when she wants. (Same with Kayaking)
Her mum in the other hand is made up... she was never happy with the girl doing DH... his (younger) son on the other hand has never been that keen but Mum thinks he should.
This is almost the exact conversation I had with my mate 2 weeks or so ago...
Her mum in the other hand is made up… she was never happy with the girl doing DH… his (younger) son on the other hand has never been that keen but Mum thinks he should.
Dear god even your pointless anecdotes show the opposite of what you are saying!!!
The only people I see grazing their horses on wasteland and trotting through them local estate are men. I don’t recall ever seeing a woman doing this.
I don’t know what point I’m making here. 😀
Pikeys cant ride horses?
poly
He picked bad stats to illustrate his point – but it does seem that overall he was probably right
Did he pick bad stats by accident or design? Was it to prove a point by delibately choosing the most biased stats?
As I say total recorded women on horses at Agincourt when in the countryside of france and England at the time women were ploughing and riding horses whilst all the men were off shooting arrows at each other?
Totally irrelevant just like Olympic equestrian competitors
but it does seem that overall he was probably right
In what way ... do you think the reason MOST people in the UK (m or f) don't "do horse riding" is anything to do with gender or perhaps everything to do with it being an elite hobby few can afford or simply we have a largely urban population?
The point was they are "the only man in the village rides horses because the rest see it as a female thing" ... sorry but that's plain daft.
He may or may not be "the only man in the village that rides horses" but there are 101 other reasons other males in the village may not want/like riding horses as a hobby and the most common are probably due to time/work etc..
– I don’t think people make conscious decisions about the hobbies they fall into (especially teenagers as per the OP – we do the things our parents/friends/teachers do (or encourage us to do)).
Well teenagers ... mostly what their friends do...
– I don’t think you have to be unhappy with the things you are doing to have missed an opportunity to do something else
No but there is always something else and gender is not the only reason or even a reason.
That should be obvious... as a child in NE lancs I had little chance to do bobsleigh or ski-jumping ... not because I was male simply because I lived in NE lancs.
I did however have ample opportunity to cycle, climb, kayak, cave, hike etc.
– What you are saying is if one group of people is happy with their lot in life, then the other groups must be too.
Point 3 is just a non sequiter. I didn't learn to ski until I was 19 ... however I did have the opportunity to do all those other things.
Dismissing the possibility of a structural gender imbalance prevents any possible way of redreessing it.
Yet assuming it does the inverse.
Perhaps geometries or saddles are just wrong for women.
Geometries are what they are and trying to say all women or men fit a model is just incorrect.
Yes women are on average shorter and have smaller hands... but in reality the geometry of people changes more.
As an example (real example) a Youtuber once suggested that the SLX shifters would be better for his wife... he said this because the activation pressure is considerably lower than XT but instead a bunch of people jumped in saying how he was saying XT or XTR was not good enough for women.
My 11yr old has SLX... because his hands are smaller not because I'm too tight to give him XT (and draw the line at XTR)
Perhaps (some) bike shops are not welcoming / helpful to women.
Perhaps some men are really unwelcoming at trail centres.
Perhaps some men are lecherous (there’s at least one comment on this thread about denim hotpants!) of women on bikes.
Sorry, chopped this in cut and paste because that is a whole new can of worms...
There again you're generalising what "all women want"
Perhaps the Youtube icon was chosen for the hotpants and to get more clicks?
Perhaps some bike shops are over helpful... perhaps some male sales people try not to fawn over the attractive female customer and they don't get the attention ???
Perhaps cynical bits of the media/society are over-emphasising the need to become barbie dolls to 12 yr olds and make up and bikes don’t mix.
Ah... don't get me onto the media .. oops but yes... and the same media perhaps that also pedals the "wait for a male attendant then wear a tight top and hot pants and ask for a discount"
Unfortunately not ALL women want the same things.... it would be simpler for heterosexual men if they did. But not ALL men want the same things ... I'm most certainly not attracted to women with false nails, eyelashes and makeup.
The thing is some men are attracted to "barbie dolls" and and some women want to be the woman that is attractive to these men.... just like some gay men/women are attracted to more effeminate men/women and others the opposite.
It would be a bloody boring world though if everyone was the same.
Perhaps the bike industry peddles poorer quality (heavier, slower, etc) kit at women by painting it in pastel shades – but giving them a less enjoyable experience.
So I was out riding yesterday with two very good female riders ... certainly not ones I'd label as Barbie Dolls.
I'm pretty confident a direct quote whilst discussing her bike was "I don't care as long as it's pink"
AA
Dear god even your pointless anecdotes show the opposite of what you are saying!!!
Nope you just seem unable to get past some conspiracy theory that less women than men cycle due to other reasons than they just don't want to.
Anecdotes or fact are only pointless to you when they don't prove your conspiracy theory.
As I mentioned previously my sons mother doesn't think her sister should compete in DH/EWS "because she's female or any of the other sports she enjoys. She nearly died in an avalanche and she said "she shouldn't be doing these dangerous sports".
I happen to know (through my kid) a lot of young female riders (you won't believe it but my what's app has group chats from several "sisters of shred" and We'll be at the next one Saturday)
Overwhelmingly its mothers who seem to think their girls shouldn't be doing this not the dads...
and as once mother said about 2 weeks ago (on a different one) "I'm not going to be one of those mothers that sit at the bottom and tells her daughter not to do this and that because she's a girl".
The point of that "anecdote" is she was the one identifying this culture of mum's who don't think their daughters should be doing "dangerous sports".
From what I see the main influence on these girls not continuing is the mother (or second after what their mates do) ... unlike the one I tried to quote or the other mother I was riding with 2 days later when she broke her fib and tib. (Who's 2 daughters are both into horses as it happens)
Pikeys cant ride horses?
No need if you can get them in the lift?
I haven't read this thread. As a woman, should I bother?
Nope you just seem unable to get past some conspiracy theory that less women than men cycle due to other reasons than they just don’t want to.
You really really don't get it do you, its quite funny.
I haven’t read this thread. As a woman, should I bother?
Dear god no, run, run now!!!!
Or better still cycle now!
I haven’t read this thread. As a woman, should I bother?
Probably not unless you think all girls should ride bikes whether they want to or not..
The video is well worth watching though.
Only if it completely out of your own free will, and not as a result of subconscious social conditioning.
If there’s a choice, I’d definitely recommend doing something else with your evening.
AA
You really really don’t get it do you, its quite funny.
Its actually quite sad that you can't see that you want to tell other people what they should and shouldn't enjoy according to your ideals.
I very much doubt you will find the answers on a cycling forum but if you go and ask 1000 women who don't cycle and ask why they don't cycle you might have to convince them they should because society has prevented them doing what they really secretly wanted to do but were prevented doing.
You might want to expand this and cover a few sports at the same time like heliskiing, luge, etc.
AA "So do you participate in ski jumping"
Confused female "are you having a laugh"
AA "So you don't are you aware that is because it is portrayed as a male sport and you really really always wanted to do it"
Confused female: Erm... no its cos we don't have a ski jump near me.
AA If they did women's only days at the ski jump would that have made you continue
Confused female "Look its the bloody Isle of Wight ... we don't have a ski jump" ...
AA "but if they did"
Confused female "probably not I spent most of my teens at the go carting track with my mates and sailing then I got a job and I barely have time to pick the shopping up on the way home"
doubleeagle
I suspect that there are cultural/societal aspects which drive that far more than the activity itself. And if that is the case then… maybe as members of the cycling community that could be something that we get to influence.
There probably are but then by rights if that's the case I should like football.
Much as I got into cycling (at 14-15) because of a girl called Toni I think we broke up at least in part because I just didn't like football and she did.
Not societal pressure .. not like she was "ooh you're not a real bloke" but because I wanted to do other stuff at the weekends like running or climbing rather than go to watch football which I find incredibly boring.
In the end (a few years later) I drifted away from road cycling because the truth is I just don't really like team sports... except Rugby and that's really only playing not watching.
Its actually quite sad that you can’t see that you want to tell other people what they should and shouldn’t enjoy according to your ideals.
I very much doubt you will find the answers on a cycling forum but if you go and ask 1000 women who don’t cycle and ask why they don’t cycle you might have to convince them they should because society has prevented them doing what they really secretly wanted to do but were prevented doing.
You might want to expand this and cover a few sports at the same time like heliskiing, luge, etc.
AA “So do you participate in ski jumping”
Confused female “are you having a laugh”
AA “So you don’t are you aware that is because it is portrayed as a male sport and you really really always wanted to do it”
Confused female: Erm… no its cos we don’t have a ski jump near me.
AA If they did women’s only days at the ski jump would that have made you continue
Confused female “Look its the bloody Isle of Wight … we don’t have a ski jump” …
AA “but if they did”
Confused female “probably not I spent most of my teens at the go carting track with my mates and sailing then I got a job and I barely have time to pick the shopping up on the way home”
Is there a shorter version 🙄🙄🙄
Its actually quite sad that you can’t see that you want to tell other people what they should and shouldn’t enjoy according to your ideals.
No I want everyone to feel open and able and wanted in any sport/hobby, that you can't see this is monumentally amusing and says so much about you! The lack of understanding about unconscious bias you display is startling tbh.
Stevextc - you do realise when people are talking about social conditioning, no-one is actually accusing you, personally of actively turning women away from any activities. So you talking about all the female WhatsApp members you communicate with is kind of irrelevant? What is more relevant is that you have repeatedly stated that some parents are actively trying to discourage their daughters from MTB as it's "not for girls". That's social conditioning. That is what we are talking about. So in your examples you meet and interact with young women where one parent or other part of their social circle has encouraged participation, while another has actively discouraged it based on their sex. I'm struggling to understand that you cannot conceive of any young women out there raised in environments where for instance both parents have actively discouraged participation in MTB as it is "not for girls". They won't be on your WhatsApp, you won't meet them on the trails, because they have been conditioned to believe the sport is not for them.
No-one on this thread has stated that only men are responsible for this happening - but the phrasing of your contributions suggests that you believe that is what is implied.
Is there a shorter version
I have just given up reading them, they are really not worth the time.
6 pages of angry men arguing about why women don't like bikes whilst the four women that did respond are roundly ignored.
Bra-****ing-vo fellas, 👏.
Everyone one of you ought to take step back and have a critical look at yourselves.
Well I am not angry for one, maybe you need to make more effort to understand what people are writing than what you want to think they are writing.
I also have very little clue as to what gender a lot of the posters are unless they state it in the posts.
Agree, no anger from me and I also don't know what gender the posters are but more importantly that doesn't actually matter.
Cinnamon_girl is wouldn’t. But the video that the OP posted is very good.
I’ve realised I was wrong and there is no such thing as social pressure or gender bias.
Outofbreath and SteveXTC have both taught me the error of my ways.
Also I have a headache from banging my head against a brick wall.
I ordered a copy of in invisible women. As recommended earlier in the thread.
Retromud
Stevextc – you do realise when people are talking about social conditioning, no-one is actually accusing you, personally of actively turning women away from any activities. So you talking about all the female WhatsApp members you communicate with is kind of irrelevant? What is more relevant is that you have repeatedly stated that some parents are actively trying to discourage their daughters from MTB as it’s “not for girls”. That’s social conditioning. That is what we are talking about. So in your examples you meet and interact with young women where one parent or other part of their social circle has encouraged participation, while another has actively discouraged it based on their sex. I’m struggling to understand that you cannot conceive of any young women out there raised in environments where for instance both parents have actively discouraged participation in MTB as it is “not for girls”. They won’t be on your WhatsApp, you won’t meet them on the trails, because they have been conditioned to believe the sport is not for them.
No-one on this thread has stated that only men are responsible for this happening – but the phrasing of your contributions suggests that you believe that is what is implied.
Can I start at the end ... several people on this thread have stated categorically that the problem is down to white males.
The issue if it exists is two separate things from what I observe.
As I said the social conditioning in this that exists that I see is exclusively from mothers.
As I think ashat said this isn't her experience. (Which thinking about it make sense)
I think both are relevant... and as I've been trying to point out the result of sample bias.
My son's mother will tell her "little" (35 yr old) sister who is very successful and independent she shouldn't participate in these sports ... because (IMHO) she's her sister. She wouldn't say it to Ashat or my female cycling buddies (unless she'd had a few glasses of wine perhaps)... but she will say it to me. My mate Annabel broke her fib and tib 2 weeks ago... my son asked after her (over dinner) and the response from his mother "it's her own fault, she shouldn't be doing it"... her sister very nearly died (that isn't an exaggeration) in an avalanche and her response "it's her own fault, she shouldn't be doing it".. same when she lost part of her finger last year... no sympathy at all because she's doing "man stuff" doubtless she'd have the same sympathy if she'd fallen off a ladder doing "man stuff" like painting.
However .. why would these other mothers say this to me (or annabels husband) and not Annabel or ashat ???
I think it's because they somehow think that because I'm male I'll agree but Annabel or ashat won't.
What do you think? (That's actually a question not rhetoric)
So in the first thread of this... (as I've been saying) from what I see it is not the males (under 50 at least) but actually females who for one reason or another (probably a whole different thread) didn't want this change. Lets just hypothise many of these are quite happy driving the sprogs 1/2 mile to school in the SUV/4WD and not having to work.
Another observation is that many males are more worried about preserving some status quo for males and many females for females.
I mentioned football as an example... an ex manager of mine used to ridicule 2 of us and deliberately use football analogies. This is possibly even more outrageous as he'd probably drop dead given 30 secs of exercise and my other mate/colleague packed it in and is an outdoors instructor and lowland rescue volunteer.
So the thing is he can say he's "into football"... but he shouldn't be able to assume I or my mate are just because we are male
The same thing should surely apply for females? (or any other gender identity)
What is more relevant is that you have repeatedly stated that some parents are actively trying to discourage their daughters from MTB as it’s “not for girls”. That’s social conditioning. That is what we are talking about. So in your examples you meet and interact with young women where one parent or other part of their social circle has encouraged participation, while another has actively discouraged it based on their sex. I’m struggling to understand that you cannot conceive of any young women out there raised in environments where for instance both parents have actively discouraged participation in MTB as it is “not for girls”. They won’t be on your WhatsApp, you won’t meet them on the trails, because they have been conditioned to believe the sport is not for them.
It's not one parent or the other it is ALWAYS the mother.
(The reasons for that... as above?)
So in the case both parents have discouraged due to gender I just don't see the issue or how iut would change without forcing people to do what they don't want.
It is what it is .... cycling is just cycling. You and I (and lots of females) love it but it's just a hobby/sport/job.
If it turns out less females as a percent don't fall in love with it for life that's just what it is.
As I say I know the Surrey CC schools cycling coordinator well socially. I'm pretty certain she encourages girls every bit as much as boys... quite possibly more.
However I don't think people should be FORCED.... if they don't want to cycle then they don't... any more than forced to play football/netball or anything else.
I happen to know neither does she... as my lad won't ride on roads and has no desire to ever ride on roads. He declined the opportunity to do the school cycling and it was as simple as that. He didn't get pressured into doing it "because he should try" etc. he just didn't want to BUT he had the opportunity as did every other child M/F/other.
The issue here is life is full of expectations others have for you but M/F or anything else you shouldn't have to fit into a stereotype.
I simply don't like team sports ... I don't want a leadership role in work .. all things others have decided for me "I really want if only I knew it".
My brother happens to be gay and has expectations from the gay community to be someone he's not as another example.
This thread is actually a complete hijack of a celebration of a great video to some conspiracy theory as to why more girls don't ride bikes with name calling and an agenda since about the 3rd post. Anyone saying "so what maybe less girls just want to ride bikes is jumped on or told their opinion is irrelevant" and shut down/cancelled.
Anyone who thinks the thumbnail and hotpants are accidental is seriously deluded...
Anyone who wants to support these girls would do better giving their video a like or comment.
Making derogatory comments about people who make comments on the hotpants is just screwed up... unless they criticise the girls for the thumbnail as well.
The point really is it's just cycling ... many girls and boys simply won't do it because their parents sail or surf etc. just as with notable exceptions few people in the UK will ever try ski-jumping or bobsleigh.
Some won't do it because their parents don't think it's a suitable activity for girls... but those that really want to will and those who might have but didn't probably weren't going to have it as a passion. (I'm talking 2021 here not 1999)....
You could just as easily talk about the barriers to mens netball and the gender paygap ... perhaps on a mens netball forum somewhere people are right now?
Am I pissed I wasn't given the opportunity to play mens netball?
Nope.. it would be wasted effort as I don't like team sports regardless of how many times I told that is a disability or fault on my part... nothing to do with gender.
I’ve realised I was wrong and there is no such thing as social pressure or gender bias.
Outofbreath and SteveXTC have both taught me the error of my ways.
That's absolutely not what I'm saying and I don't believe it's what OOB is saying either.
I have just given up reading them, they are really not worth the time.
Let me help.. do you believe in flat earth as well?
I have just given up reading them, they don't support my conspiracy theory.
That’s absolutely not what I’m saying and I don’t believe it’s what OOB is saying either.
Yup, my whole point relies on there being gender bias.
I can hardly say that if men are happy with the things we're biased towards then maybe we should consider that women might be equally happy with their choices without accepting gender bias.
I'll offer another bias, men are biased towards thinking women ought to like the stuff men like. Women are more tolerant and accept that men are capable of making their own choices of interests without the interference of women. Rather than women learning to like airfix spitfires from men, men should learn tolerance towards other people's interests from women. In spite of my words I'm as bad at this as the rest of the patriarchy, I make my daughter join in doing the stuff I like, (She's getting old enough to say no now, but not quite yet!) I constantly nag my wife to cycle the school run instead of always driving. (With zero success.)
Viva la difference: It would be a very boring world of we all liked the same stuff.
I’ve just bought Invisible Women. Thanks for the recommendation.
Kudos to purchasers of Invisble Women. I also found this when looking for some more research articles on the topic
And that’s a link to the whole edition! Scroll to P4 for the essay on male privilege
Yup, my whole point relies on there being gender bias.
Whereas my point is perhaps more why is gender bias different to socio economic, geographical or any other bias and why do we need to change it and how?
I also find the urge to sample bias very strange...
What's the problem (other than perhaps not liking the answers) with asking women who don't cycle their reasons rather than those who do anyway?
This is why I think riding horses is a good example...the claim seems to be men don't ride horses because its seen as a woman's thing. The quite obvious reason I don't ride horses (as a hobby) is because I don't come from affluent family, we had meat on the table 3-4 days a week, no heating in winter but apparently the reason I don't ride horses must be "because I view it as a womens thing"? Nothing to do with not having a horse or the money to stable and feed one.
Why not ask 1000 men who don't ride horses as a hobby their reasons why not, not someone who does tell us why why the other 999 don't.
At the end of the day if giving everyone a chance to do a pass-time more men or women prefer one activity over another then what's so bad and why try to change it. Are women who prefer not to cycle as a hobby "letting women down"?
I think its also obvious why most UK men and women don't do ski-jumping just as its obvious why more people don't ride horses as a hobby and it has sod all to do with gender.
Thanks for the article, nice to have some referenced facts.
"Men are often more constrained by concepts
of masculinity than women are by femininity,
and women are able to flip between
definitions with far more acceptance and
ease than men (Hargreaves, 1994)."
Starkly demonstrated by this thread. Men who accept they have been conditioned towards/away from stuff refusing to do something about it and take on pastimes that they consider "female". QED.
The majority of humans are social/pack animals by nature and as such there is always going to be some form of social pressure(that could be internally or externally generated) that goes along with the need to belong and be accepted.
Rather than demanding that the media feed everyone with differing gender examples of every possible interest/sport passtime etc (how the hell do you achieve that anyway?)as seemed to be suggested earlier. Why can't we equip people to recognise when they are unhappy/dissatisfied with whatever they are doing and teach them that there is nothing to fear from trying something new even if it means moving out of their current social circle?
OOB
Starkly demonstrated by this thread. Men who accept they have been conditioned towards/away from stuff refusing to do something about it and take on pastimes that they consider “female”. QED.
The reason I don't count sewing as a pass-time is the same as welding. Neither are a passtime in and of themselves and just tools. If someone enjoys either for what they are that's also fine.
Interesting article .. I'll perhaps print it out and leave it to be read?
It fem-splains that I'm paying £1200 for a AirB&B with plugs for hairdryers for a beach holiday neither me or the kid want due to white male privilege.
jordan
Rather than demanding that the media feed everyone with differing gender examples of every possible interest/sport passtime etc (how the hell do you achieve that anyway?)as seemed to be suggested earlier. Why can’t we equip people to recognise when they are unhappy/dissatisfied with whatever they are doing and teach them that there is nothing to fear from trying something new even if it means moving out of their current social circle?
Gosh really ??
Next someone will say
Why can’t we equip people to recognise when they are happy/satisfied with whatever they are doing and teach them that there is nothing to fear from continuing to be happy/satisfied even if it means not moving out of their current social circle?
Let me help.. do you believe in flat earth as well?
I have just given up reading them, they don’t support my conspiracy theory.
Okay, that was about 1% the length of your normal posts so you can do it but unfortunately it still makes no sense as I really don't know what the hell flat earth and conspiracy theory has got to do with anything but I will leave you to it.
stevextc
Gosh really ??
Next someone will say
Why can’t we equip people to recognise when they are happy/satisfied with whatever they are doing and teach them that there is nothing to fear from continuing to be happy/satisfied even if it means not moving out of their current social circle?
Isn't that kind of what you've been saying all along in a rather roundabout way? Not that I think there is anything wrong with people being content with what they are doing at all. Oh, and I probably should have used the word acknowledge rather than recognise.
I got halfway through this thread and gave up. Sad to see so many of you fellow men being sucked in by social conditioning and perpetuating the lies that make it so much harder for anyone who’s a little bit different to enjoy their life. So disappointing...
Thank you to the ones who actually understand the problem.
Stevextc - apologies, still typing away on a tiny phone here and don't know how to quote properly but I'll try to respond to those direct questions.
First - I may have misinterpreted the previous posters references to middle aged white guys. I had been reading them as saying that middle aged white guys were a problem - in trying to resolve issues of gender bias (or any other exclusionary bias), because they are kind of a homogenous group, who don't have the lived experience of anyone else to work out what would be required to successfully increase diversity. That was my own interpretation; it could have been that they were all referencing an organised white guy conspiracy that is deliberately trying to exclude women/minorities/anyone not a middle aged white guy.
I don't know why your friend's mother (is that the right relationship I'm referencing?) would conspire with you that she believes her daughter should give up outdoor pursuits as they are not suitable for girls. Unless they actually believe that having a penis would have somehow prevented injury or accident occurring, I can only suggest social conditioning - they believe some pursuits are not suitable for females, they believe that you as man would agree with that (as you do manly things instead of say, embroidery), and that females that she sees as "not normal" as they partake in manly pursuits would not agree with her. Obviously, I don't agree with the whole genderising of activities implied in that.
It's great that you think that no-one should have to live up to societies expectations of them regarding gender, no-one should be forced to do things they don't want to (I don't think anyone has actually suggested that have they?), and that everyone should be given the same opportunities. It's on that last point that I would like to leave a little thought experiment with you, based on the thoughts on social conditioning that you have expressed in this thread.
Imagine a father, a run of the mill average dad, watches the footie on the weekends, jogs to keep fit but isn't an enthusiast, never been into cycling. His teenage twins have been offered an afternoon trial of MTB through the local schools cycling co-ordinator type person, all fully funded. The son arrives home afterwards, "hey dad, that was great, really enjoyed it". Dad replies "excellent news son, it's not my thing but glad you had a good time".
Daughter chimes in "yeah it was great but, you know, it was a bit weird because out of the 20 of us, I was the only girl". To which the dad replies:
"Don't worry. If you felt a bit weird about being the only girl there, that's just because you don't really like MTB enough. If you wanted to do it enough, it wouldn't be weird for you being surrounded by only boys. Don't take it as a bad thing though, I mean as a girl you're statistically less likely than your brother to actually like it in the first place, just because you're a girl, and far fewer girls like MTB than boys, so if you don't want to go again that would put you in the normal range for girls. Actually, I was speaking to your friend Jenny's parents; she'd asked about going but they both said it wasn't really a sport for girls so in the end she didn't sign up even though you said she really wanted to when she first found out about it. Guess she just didn't want to do it that much after all. Thinking on it, it's probably best if you didn't take up MTB with your brother as your mum will hate you doing a boy sport, because you're her little girl"
So yeah, boys and girls, both getting exactly the same opportunities. Except somehow, I bet they don't seem like the same opportunities to both girls and boys
I’m sorry. I couldn’t see past the hot pants the girls were wearing…..
1. They are girls/kids?
2. They are just denim shorts
3. wtaf?
For the edification of alpin (and stevextc):
Hotpants
Jorts
Action jorts
Recommend having a head wobble or two.
And here’re some Dangle-pants for you to study:
I showed the vid to my year 9 tutor group and we talked a bit afterwards. About 10 boys ride to school, no girls. Major barrier to girls riding to school is skirts apparently. I wonder how many dismiss cycling for travel or recreation in the future as they don't do it as kids. The girls are allowed to wear trousers to school but don't want to. Seems they prefer to wear skirts than ride bikes. Only one or two girls ride bikes at all.
Just asked my 9yo daughter, she loves cycling to school, but rarely gets to do so. (By chance we did twice this week.)
She says she currently has no problems riding to school in skirt/dress but *if* she had to choose between cycling to school in trousers and wearing a skirt/dress she'd rather wear the skirt than cycle. Girls can wear trousers to her school, but in her class only one girl does.
I hadn't forseen this - the high school we'd ideally choose for her is an easy cycle ride but a heck of a long walk. If she refuses to cycle it's going to be a nightmare. 😱
With the risk of distracting into a skirt debate is the reason the girls want to wear skirts more social conditioning?
Are boys allowed to wear skirts and if they were would they and if not why not?
I also think there is a difference between riding a bike (going to school, going to shops, going to friends house) as a means of transport and cycling (going out and riding a bike solely for the enjoyment of cycling)
My mum used to ride a bike for transport but would never go out cycling.
Clothing choice has to be near 100pc social conditioning. Different cultures wear different clothes and trousers were only invented relatively recently, before that we all wore skirts/dresses (with different names). The root cause of each gender wanting to dress differently might be nature, of course.
But just because I know I've been conditioned to wear trousers doesn't mean I'm going to start to wear kilts. Trousers might be too hot in the summer but personally, I find trousers quite practical. I imagine women feel the same way, they like their skirts/dresses and are happy to make the required compromises.
Viva la difference.
I also think there is a difference between riding a bike (going to school, going to shops, going to friends house) as a means of transport and cycling (going out and riding a bike solely for the enjoyment of cycling)
My mum used to ride a bike for transport but would never go out cycling.
I'm not sure there is a distinction and if there was I'd say cycling as transport has more merit than cycling purely for fun.
retromud
Stevextc – apologies, still typing away on a tiny phone here and don’t know how to quote properly but I’ll try to respond to those direct questions.
I'm going to try and number stuff (if you want to replay then you can use a number)?
First – I may have misinterpreted the previous posters references to middle aged white guys. I had been reading them as saying that middle aged white guys were a problem – in trying to resolve issues of gender bias (or any other exclusionary bias), because they are kind of a homogenous group, who don’t have the lived experience of anyone else to work out what would be required to successfully increase diversity. That was my own interpretation; it could have been that they were all referencing an organised white guy conspiracy that is deliberately trying to exclude women/minorities/anyone not a middle aged white guy.
I'm getting a bit beyond "middle aged" but ...
(1a) because they are kind of a homogenous group, who don’t have the lived experience of anyone else (1b) to work out what would be required to successfully increase diversity
1a/ I personally (from my experience) don't see how this translates to me. I spent over 1/2 my working life in other cultures and I think there is as much diversity within men or women as there is across it.
By way of analogy (and since we are on STW) take bike sizes.
In a specific population women tend to be shorter and shave shorter legs as a proportion of their height. (The latter was a bit of a shocker but measure them and that's what you get or at least several actual studies found)
However the overlap is huge ... and as a white male I'm tiny in comparison with the average height of a Dutch woman
OK so I didn't choose that just because it's STW but also because height is pretty easy and standardised to measure.
I don't know the exact process for measuring height in the Dutch medical system but I'm fairly confident it doesn't differ significantly enough from the UK or others to change the averages significantly, more over if I wanted to be even more accurate I could go and sample 1000 or 10000 and use a rigorously repeatable measurement method.
In terms of how men or women think about different things?
How exactly do you measure this and indeed has anyone quantitively measured it.
To use the Ontario creative writing example ...
The author has an agenda and has selectively picked facts and data and ignored everything else.
(Exactly as was done to say why men don't ride horses)
Where to even start...but the overwhelming difference I'd see between Ontario and the UK in terms of access to the outdoors is quite simply population density.
2
That was my own interpretation; it could have been that they were all referencing an organised white guy conspiracy that is deliberately trying to exclude women/minorities/anyone not a middle aged white guy.
Well depending who "they" are.
If you do get time then read from the start... see how those who don't agree are just "cancelled"... complete refusal to engage other than name calling and "tou are not alloed an opinion" from the hardcore who's agenda is "white male privilege" just like a flat earth discussion site...
I don’t know why your friend’s mother (is that the right relationship I’m referencing?) would conspire with you that she believes her daughter should give up outdoor pursuits as they are not suitable for girls.
I think you picked up on that incorrectly...
What I'm saying is as I'm frequently at kids DH events I get comments from other parents about their daughters. Much as this is biased in itself non of the Dad's ever made the comments to me but mums do not infrequently... whereas my mate (son's mates mother but equally my mate) doesn't get them and a few times I've even had "what does she think she's doing" when they don't realise we are a group.
Equally, another mate with a son and daughter (I happen to be riding with Saturday coming) is separated and the mother has for as long as I remember been against the daughter doing what she thinks are male sports. The daughter has always been way keener... but she's got to an age now that she's less into the riding and more into socialising.
So straying from actual FACT into opinion ... what do I think is happening?
I think that DH isn't for everyone (gender not even an issue). If you want race you have to be prepared to spend a lot of time in hospital and rehab and these mothers are using this as an excuse why they don't ride DH. (when they don't have to)
To illustrate a different way, my son's mother has an endless list of reasons we (I) have to pay for accommodation for HER summer beach holiday. She was brought up in the same house, parents as her sister.. who would be of the complete opposite opinion about why do we even need a tent.
My sons mother is at the same time both very protective of and hyper critical of her sister.
My son's mother chooses not to earn what she could and I am expected to pick up the shortfall.
Before she was injured her sister announced she was going to quit her job (that she's very successful at but hates) because it makes her unhappy and limits her hobbies of extreme sports (that her sister/son's mother) say's she has no business doing as a woman.
Again, this is ONLY my opinion ... but I think her reasons are at least in part because she doesn't want to have no excuse not to do the things her sister does.
So back to my earlier point... I think there is as much and perhaps even more pressure on women who want to do "male sports" from other women than men.
3/ (Big block but just quoting togather)
Imagine a father, a run of the mill average dad, watches the footie on the weekends, jogs to keep fit but isn’t an enthusiast, never been into cycling. His teenage twins have been offered an afternoon trial of MTB through the local schools cycling co-ordinator type person, all fully funded. The son arrives home afterwards, “hey dad, that was great, really enjoyed it”. Dad replies “excellent news son, it’s not my thing but glad you had a good time”.
Daughter chimes in “yeah it was great but, you know, it was a bit weird because out of the 20 of us, I was the only girl”. To which the dad replies:
“Don’t worry. If you felt a bit weird about being the only girl there, that’s just because you don’t really like MTB enough. If you wanted to do it enough, it wouldn’t be weird for you being surrounded by only boys. Don’t take it as a bad thing though, I mean as a girl you’re statistically less likely than your brother to actually like it in the first place, just because you’re a girl, and far fewer girls like MTB than boys, so if you don’t want to go again that would put you in the normal range for girls. Actually, I was speaking to your friend Jenny’s parents; she’d asked about going but they both said it wasn’t really a sport for girls so in the end she didn’t sign up even though you said she really wanted to when she first found out about it. Guess she just didn’t want to do it that much after all. Thinking on it, it’s probably best if you didn’t take up MTB with your brother as your mum will hate you doing a boy sport, because you’re her little girl”
Except that kids are just more likely to do something their parents do then as teenagers their mates.
In fact you actually hit on something ...
Out of the many girls I know that ride I don't know any who's mums or dads are interested in football. Not like this is actually a discussion or topic but when we have been away weekends I can't remember anyone saying "I need to get a phone signal/radio to check the footy"
If I was to speculate I'd suggest that perhaps the reason may have something to do with rejecting the cultural bias/expectations of sport in the first place.
OOB
Clothing choice has to be near 100pc social conditioning. Different cultures wear different clothes and trousers were only invented relatively recently, before that we all wore skirts/dresses (with different names). The root cause of each gender wanting to dress differently might be nature, of course.
Not quite ... in fact trousers in many cultures were traditionally worn by women.
If we were to mention horse riding cultures then by men and women ...
If you want a bit of a diversion google french bus drivers in nantes and swedish train drivers (with the word skirts in the search)
kerley
I also think there is a difference between riding a bike (going to school, going to shops, going to friends house) as a means of transport and cycling (going out and riding a bike solely for the enjoyment of cycling)
My mum used to ride a bike for transport but would never go out cycling.
For once on this thread I'd totally agree .... and hence my whole point about forcing people to do something WE think is fun with the expectation they find it fun or saying they would find it fun was it not for social conditioning.
p7eaven
1. They are girls/kids?
2. They are just denim shorts
3. wtaf?
So why the issue with Alpin not the girls or their parents?
(Or do you actually believe the thumbnail is a complete accident)
The issue I see is with you and Alpin. Why would the girl’s parents need to raise issue with their daughters wearing shorts on bikes?
The thumbnail I see is a denim sponsorship/tie-in. See the video channel.
They sell jorts, jeans and dungarees. If Jason McRoy up there had been a teen boy in that pic and (say) it was sponsored by Levis, would you and Alpin still feel the need to comment on his jean-shorts being ‘hot’ and distracting? Or would you have seen past his boyish legs and maybe focused on the bikey-fun?
For once on this thread I’d totally agree …. and hence my whole point about forcing people to do something WE think is fun with the expectation they find it fun or saying they would find it fun was it not for social conditioning.
I never thought I would see that happening, although not sure we agree for the same reason 🙂
It is not about forcing people to do something it is about making it seen as an option of something they may like to try. If they are conditioned to think it is not for them they won't try it, just as most boys won't wear a skirt even though in summer it is probably a good idea.
The lack of self awareness on this thread is incredible. You lot do know why there are so many "Someone is wrong on the internet" memes/cartoonsjokes/podcasts/etc. don't you? (rhetorical: I won't be back to read any answers! 😆 )
And Alpin's post was so obviously wind up. Jeez.