[Closed] There were no girls riding bikes where I grew up

@Bedmaker, isn’t the question why do they want to do different things? Is it ‘genetic’ as someone suggests, or is it because society expects them to like different things. I know my mother-in-law doesn’t understand why the wife took up riding and isn’t that impressed that my 2 year old loves her bikes more than her toys.

They might not have been subject to conscious bias from society but it’s there. The same as a lot of my friends and colleagues Donna understand why my wife went back to work after having twins and I chose to stay at home (or at least go very very very part time) to look at them. No other guys at work would even consider this because ‘it’s not the normal thing’ ( and I work in a job that is 50:50 male and female and there is no gender bias from a work point of view).

Personally I think it’s more about social norms and expectations rather than a biological cause. And us (as parents) are the people that can help change this.

But what do I know as a 40 year old guy? If any women on here who have first hand experience think otherwise I’m inclined to believe them.

We’re going to experiment with our boy/girl twins and expose them to the same things and try not to push any gender stereotypes (if we can) on either of them and see what happens.

That is one of the brilliant videos I watched with my seven year old daughter, Amber; she really likes anything like that and loves watching the Sophie / Lyon vids and anything with girls / females having fun on bikes.

Opportunity and exposure to mtb is a big issue.

This in a nutshell! It is a lot easier to imagine yourself doing stuff, if you see other's who look like you, doing it too. 15 years ago I started biking, encouraged by my PhD supervisor (and in an act of rebelion against an ex bf who restricted my love of the outdoors!), and in doing so met p20 who loved bikes and exposed me too it further, could advise on stuff, show me how to ride features and mend my bike! There was one other regular lady as part of our group, but really she was one of very few female mtb'ers who I knew. It really has been only in the last 5 years that the profile of female riders has had a lot more exposure (e.g. womens riding videos on YouTube etc), more womens only events have cropped up etc etc, that for many more girls and woman can see that riding can be for them. Even for an 'old timer' like me I still regularly remark on how great it is to see more womans groups/events/videos etc. For 7-year olds like Amber, this is brilliant as it already is becoming more normal, and the growth of womens cycling with hopefully continue to increase. I have already thanked STW mag a lot for what they do to promote woman's cycling. Whereas even now you can pick up some months issues of some of the highstreet mags you find in WHSmith and see no woman at all in it!

The easiest response is just “well maybe they (insert race or gender) just don’t want to do it”

Exactly. The most common counter to the police shootings of black people I see in the comments is 'well maybe if they did what they were told they wouldn't get shot'. An easy way to blame others and never have to admit you were wrong.

Anyway. It's extremely difficult to unpick nature Vs nurture. Active suppression is easy to spot, but social conditioning is much harder. If people are conditioned not to want to do the thing, then they'll never take it up matter how many how many times it's offered in later life. But that might be simply because at age 2 all they saw was men riding bikes and women riding horses.

Question everything. Social conditioning is everywhere in life and is perpetuated by the thought or suggestion that 'maybe girls just don't like it'. Maybe we will never get 50/50 participation - fine, but what you must never do is ASSUME a girl isn't going to like something just because only 20% of the people doing it are girls.

Molgrips

But why?

As you say a million and one reasons (sic). I didn't get to play rugby until Uni... turned out I rather enjoyed it (as a team sport)

there are loads of things I’m interested in (e.g. martial arts, to name one) that I could have done. But I was never really exposed to those things, I didn’t know where to start, I didn’t know other people who did them, so I never did.

I spent most of my teenage years doing martial arts and meeting (girls) there... I'm being a bit glib because really it was just about meeting people there though probably the ratio wasn't far off 50/50. Certainly the club disco's would have been less interesting if they weren't.

I got dragged into roady stuff through Toni . short for Antoinette (which was a very exotic name in NE lancs in the 80's)

My point is that the environment in which you grown up has a huge effect on what you end up doing – because you do the things that you can ‘see yourself’ doing. And if people of either gender don’t ‘see themselves’ doing it then they wont.

You run the risk of assuming that because female participation is low, that means that women just don’t want to. But there are many reasons not to assume that, if you just think about it a bit. As a cycling male assuming there’s no problem with female participation could be considered as sexism or at least gender issue blindness.

My son's mother, uncle and aunt grew up in the same house with the same family.
His aunt does any and every endurance/adrenaline sport on the planet... his mother and uncle nothing. (Camping on an organised campsite is an extreme sport for her)

All of them grew up in the countryside, next to a mountain and forests... but aunt was 10yrs younger. You can ride from their parents home to the ski/bike uplift without going on a road.

When he was younger Jnr used to try and get his mum to come with us, he still would but she just doesn't want to. We just booked the summer hols and he was still trying to get his mum to do something other than "lie on a beach" .. he'd like to Windsurf/surf and take the bikes out and beaches for us mean snorkelling or cliff diving .. his mum wants a sunbed and sand.

A lot of upset later we are doing sunbed and sand because nothing could get her on any sort of holiday we'd enjoy. Couple of years ago we met the Aunt in Ibiza and we spent our time on bikes/snorkelling and wind surfing/cliff jumping with his mums sister but we had to put up with a lot of unpleasantness due to him trying to get his mum to come along.

You run the risk of assuming that because female participation is low, that means that women just don’t want to. But there are many reasons not to assume that, if you just think about it a bit. As a cycling male assuming there’s no problem with female participation could be considered as sexism or at least gender issue blindness.

Yes because her usual excuse (women don't do that) was shattered by having her little sister along and her saying very unkind things to her sister.

In other words its not because I or he are male or have expectations of what is a male/female activity. Probably 1/2 his MTB mates are girls... most of the mums come along... Rachel and Becci are his hero's... no idea why not Tahnee ???

His mum is in my opinion sexist but apparently not because being female she's allowed to have an opinion on what women can and can't do???? I'm sexist because ..erm I have a penis.

But what do I know as a 40 year old guy?

Presumably you know all about it, because you're claiming society has brainwashed you into liking boring old biking when your real interests should be cross stitch, and reading chicklit or shopping or choosing scented candles or doing dance routines or whatever else it is you think society has brainwashed you out of wanting to do.

Or does gender brainwashing only work on women because men have the strength of character and wisdom to resist the brainwashing? If so, shouldn't we all be over on mumsnet mansplaining to them that they're interested in the wrong stuff and typically male interests are the 'correct' interests?

I have a son and a daughter. We leave any gender roles completely out of it and always have. All the toys are in one big lump and they can play with whatever they want. We don't tell them what to watch on youtube. Yet you'd know immediately from their youtube history which tablet belonged to a lad. He hasn't been brainwashed, it's his nature.

Lots of girls rode bikes when I was about 5-7. By age 11 there were none, by age 16 I was the only one (boy or girl) riding bikes for fun and to get around. For the rest it wasn't cool.

In our MTB club in 2005-2010 there were about 2 regular girls/women compared to about 10 regular blokes and a lot or irregular (in every sense) ones. The girls were treated no differently to the rest as far as I was aware.

2010 - 2012 roadie club there were no girls.

2012 onwards I've ridden solo for the most part, but there are currently substantially more ladies riding than there were even 2 years ago. It's a great thing.

My Wife will NOT ride a bike. I have had her out on the bike a couple of times but she doesn't enjoy it. She doesn't like the faff, the motion, the need to remember to do things at certain times (brakes, gears, etc). I wish it were different, but hey ho. My daughter (3.5) likes her bike, but likes climbing more.

Question to any ladies (or anyone that can answer I suppose) - from my anecdotal evidence, women do seems to spend much more time in the drops than men do. Why is this? I don't spend much time in the drops as it hurts my lower back over a long period and only tend to do it into a headwind or when descending.

Maybe these women aren't so hung up on looking "pro" and hence ride a bike that actually fits them.

Or maybe they don't have a beer gut getting in the way.

Or does gender brainwashing only work on women because men have the strength of character and wisdom to resist the brainwashing?

I dunno about anyone of the other men in my life but I learned the most about this topic from talking to actual women - my mum and my wife. And reading about it. But yes, it does apply to men as well. For example, my Dad wasn't into football. If he had been, there's a good chance I would be too.

from my anecdotal evidence, women do seems to spend much more time in the drops than men do. Why is this?

It is more common in women to have longer arms relative to torso, I think.

We leave any gender roles completely out of it and always have.

Yes, but society doesn't. It's what they see going on around them, not just what you do as parents. I like to watch cycling, so there's lots of men riding bikes on telly. I do watch women's cycling when it's on but it's not on a lot is it?

Do you watch motor sport? How many women doing that? How many lovely ladies standing by handing out prizes? What's a 3 year old going to take from that?

Yet you’d know immediately from their youtube history which tablet belonged to a lad. He hasn’t been brainwashed, it’s his nature.

Sample size of 1. No-one's saying that boys AREN'T going to like traditional boy things. But the point I am trying in vain to make is that some girls will like them too and not all boys will like them. So don't assume.

But yes, it does apply to men as well.

So why are you still riding bikes? If it's just something society has brainwashed you into just stop and get on with what you *really* want to do.

Do you watch motor sport? How many women doing that?

Yes regularly at grass roots level and I take my daughter and there are always women drivers and I always make sure my daughter actually talks to them so she can see women are participating. (I don't believe brainwashing works in this context but I'm willing to try it!)

But the question isn't why aren't women interested in Motorsport, I can't help that, what I can do is help *you* give up the boring stuff society makes you interested in like Motorsport and bikes and get into the things you really *want* to do. Like, craft and dancing and interior design.

I dunno about anyone of the other men in my life but I learned the most about this topic from talking to actual women – my mum and my wife. And reading about it. But yes, it does apply to men as well. For example, my Dad wasn’t into football. If he had been, there’s a good chance I would be too.

My Dad loved football and cricket... it was on the TV every bloody weekend. Hence why I got into cycling and outdoors stuff to get away from it.

I like to watch cycling, so there’s lots of men riding bikes on telly. I do watch women’s cycling when it’s on but it’s not on a lot is it?

You're obviously not watching our TV...
Priority for womens DH (not as fussed if I overhear the mens results) Red Bull letting the womens result slip before we watch is a bloody disaster! ALWAYS watch womens first... end to end then probably skip part of the mens..

Red Bull letting the womens result slip before we watch is a bloody disaster!

A couple of years back I imagine it was quite hard to do live commentary on the runs of the male Hannah, Atherton and Seagrave sibling without mentioning their sisters performance an hour or two before

from my anecdotal evidence, women do seems to spend much more time in the drops than men do. Why is this?

If you didn’t watch professional riding, and you had never seen a drop bar bike before, where is the obvious place to put your hands so as to best operate the brakes and shifters (especially if it’s not the massive horns of the newest hydro sti lever).

Couple that with shorter fingers and a weaker grip.

My dad was indifferent towards football. I hate it, middle brother is indifferent and youngest brother is a fanatic. My son is a fanatic. He is also, all of a sudden fanatical about F1 too. No idea where that came from; I love rallying and Moto-x and think F1 is the height of tedium. So where does that put us all on the nature/nurture scale?

He used to love mountain biking too but the last couple of times he went was because he was grounded and I’m buggered if I’m giving up my weekend because he’s in trouble. He actually enjoyed it every time it happened but he still wouldn’t go voluntarily.

Adding the motorsport bit into this, and another massive generalisation...
But women tend not to be as interested in machines (although I know a few female F1 fans and some blokes who hate it)
I wonder if it might be the mechanical aspect of bikes putting some off?
I know quite a few female riders, some of them very, very good, but by and large their fathers/boyfriends/husbands do the mechanicing for them. Not all, but most, the vast majority. Why? Most blokes do their own spannering (again, not all and some are totally inept at it but by and large they do, certainly amongst 'proper' bikers)
Remove the 'tinkering with machines' bit and you are left with running or, if you still want to ride, horses, both of which have far more female participants.
Whether enjoying, or even being good at (which probably stems from enjoying and therefore practicing and getting better at) tinkering with machines is nature or nurture takes us back to where we started.
.
Also, if you cant sort your own mechanicals on your own in the middle of nowhere you are probably less likely to go riding alone, and therefore maybe take up running since you dont have to wait for someone to go with you.

So why are you still riding bikes? If it’s just something society has brainwashed you into just stop and get on with what you *really* want to do.

This is getting stupid.

Here's a better question - why didn't I take up rugby? I'd probably have been a much better winger or flanker than I am a cyclist.

Why didn't I take up surfing?

Why didn't I take up motorsport?

Why am I not an artist?

Why am I not in a band?

But women tend not to be as interested in machines

Gordon Bennet, it's like talking to a wall.

I wonder if it might be the mechanical aspect of bikes putting some off?

maybe in MTB.

Road bikes, punctures aside, are largely set and forget. MTB on the otherhand...

When I started mtb I was so inept and scared of braking something that I paid a shop to top up my tyre sealant. But in the years since I've gradually learnt more and more, to the point where I do most things myself.
Personally I now see the fixing, and things like suspension set up, as part of the sport.
But if society had conditioned me that I shouldn't be getting my hands metaphorically dirty, maybe I would still be turning to dad/hubby/shop to perform basic tasks?

For all the excellent biking female role models we have now, have you ever seen a woman in a maintainence tutorial video, or the author of a technical* article? (*as in repair, not riding technique)

Here’s a better question – why didn’t I take up rugby? I’d probably have been a much better winger or flanker than I am a cyclist.

Why didn’t I take up surfing?

Why didn’t I take up motorsport?

Why am I not an artist?

Why am I not in a band?

I would imagine a variety of different reasons.

My answers:

I did.
No waves in the UK.
No money.
Art is boring.
Too lazy to learn to play music.

There certainly wasn't a societal conspiracy to make me not like them.

Are you really trying to prove you've been brainwashed into liking biking on the basis of your gender by listing a load of other stuff you aren't interested in?

So where does that put us all on the nature/nurture scale?

Nurture doesn't just come from you or his family. Maybe his friends are into the things you are not and maybe he puts more into what his friends are interested in that you.
I think I probably shared one thing in common with my dad and that was fixing mechanical stuff, everything else we were polar opposites (politics, sports, other activities).
My politics and sports interests came from my friends or more likely I mixed with people who were similar to me so must have had some of that already.

There certainly wasn’t a societal conspiracy to make me not like them.

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy.

I'm saying that little kids absorb what's around them. You don't have to TELL girls that only boys ride bikes - if they only see boys riding bikes then they'll infer it's a boy's thing. Little girls will go to the 'girls' aisle at the toyshop because they think 'yay this stuff is for me, that other stuff isn't'. The shops don't conspire to prevent girls from liking action figures and cars - they do this because it helps them sell more stuff.

Little kids infer like this all the time - older kids and adults are more aware but they still do it, it's just not as obvious. It's not enough to just not say anything and let them get on with it - you have to actively parent against it. My daughter came home upset one day from school in probably year 0 or 1 because one of the boys had told her she shouldn't like Star Wars (FFS) because it's a boy thing. She was upset because we'd already told her that girls can like anything they want and the boy was going against what we'd told her.

The reason I didn't get into rugby or surfing was because it wasn't presented as an option - like you, I'd only seen surfing on telly in California or Hawaii so I didn't think it was something I could ever do. Of course, surfing is quite popular in the UK and there are plenty of waves.

Are you really trying to prove you’ve been brainwashed into liking biking on the basis of your gender by listing a load of other stuff you aren’t interested in?

No mate, I'm trying to demonstrate that we get into the things to which we're exposed, and which we see people like us doing. This isn't at all controversial I've no idea what the hell you are arguing about.

Here's another one - why is India (one of the largest countries in the world and completely sport mad) so utterly shit at football, in terms of national team world rankings?

So where does that put us all on the nature/nurture scale?

If you decide it's 100pc nurture then all that would prove is it's in our nature to nurture in a certain way. If you think it's all nurture there wasn't ever a global meeting to decide we'd regard genders as sometimes slightly different so it just comes from our nature.

We're a bunch of mammals even if we don't like that.

I think having babies/young kids really opens your mind to how animal like we are. I didnt nurture my kids to each want whatever the other one has. I guess in nature if a sibling didn't demand/steal any resource offered to the other sibling they died from lack of resource so kids evolved to do just that. (Seeing it right now in bird's nests.)

A couple of years back I imagine it was quite hard to do live commentary on the runs of the male Hannah, Atherton and Seagrave sibling without mentioning their sisters performance an hour or two before

LOL .. didn't mean that.. Warner does get excited...
I meant going to the Red Bull Site and already having posted "Watch Rachel's winning run" as the title whilst trying to find the full stream..

If you decide it’s 100pc nurture then all that would prove is it’s in our nature to nurture in a certain way. If you think it’s all nurture there wasn’t ever a global meeting to decide we’d regard genders as sometimes slightly different so it just comes from our nature.

That's a side point though. Whatever the percentage of nature or nurture, you can't assume that all kids of the same gender are going to have similar nature (obviously) and we are absolutely sure they don't all get the same nurture experience growing up.

I’m saying that little kids absorb what’s around them. You don’t have to TELL girls that only boys ride bikes – if they only see boys riding bikes then they’ll infer it’s a boy’s thing.

Personally I think that's bollocks because in early life there's no gender difference - girls and boys both all have bikes and ride them. Girls lose interest later.

However, let's assume you're right. We come back to the fact that you're claiming to be into biking because you regard biking as a boys sport. It's a trick society has played on you. SO STOP!!!!

you can’t assume that all kids of the same gender are going to have similar nature

Yup, you certainly can't, but good luck advertising razor blades on the "Love Island" commercial break.

When I was at school I believed I didn't like all sport as I was only exposed to the standard PE set and didn't like any of them. It didn't really cross my mind that there were other options as I didn't see any around me. So I took up dancing as it was the only alternative given and enjoyed it. When I got to university there were lots of people saying you can do any sport you like and here are all these options so I took up kayaking and enjoyed it. My friends saw me doing it and tried it too. Later another friend took up mountain biking and took me along, guess what that's fun too and so is climbing. Turns out I do like sport just not the ones I was shown as a child.

As molegrips is saying its about being exposed to these things and being able to see that it could be something to try. If I hadn't seen enthusiastic others saying I could try that then I would have easily fitted into the category of well she's a girl so she likes dancing and wouldn't want to get wet and muddy.

In my kayaking club we found that we had a lot of women doing taster sessions and then never coming back. When we had female coaches leading the (mixed) groups or 3 women turn up in one session then more tended to stick around and join the club.

Outofbreath a Nope it goes both ways, generations of men being told to do ‘manly things’ and women doing ‘women things’. And it’s indoctrination from a young age. As I said we have 2 1/2 year twins, go into a toy shop, for him it’s cars, construction, action figures, trucks, dinosaurs, science stuff that’s marketed at boys, for girls it’s cooking, dolls/babies and pretty stuff. So already it’s suggesting that boys will grow up and go and do stuff while a woman’s place is to stay home, cook, raise the kids and look pretty. Anything that isn’t is usually just a pink version of the same bike but with some glitter and/or a unicorn on it.
Even a chemistry set aimed at girls is all about making makeup whereas the boys version has boys in lab coats, goggles and looking ‘sciency’.

Luckily my wife is big into sports and the outdoors and most of the other women/girls (on my side) in the family are farmers and grew up in very boy heavy environments. So not much pink.

As said all their toys and stuff are just piled up and they can play witty dolls, bikes, dresses or whatever.

And a Molgrips said, the problem is pressure from the rest of society. It’s going to be a long battle and hopefully we can overcome it by talking to the people in the best position to understand - women.

And as someone else mentioned, this thread very much seems to mirror the recent race one, as in lots of us white men saying there’s no problem because we know someone from whichever demographic the thread is about.

Molgrips I feel your pain.

My wife has an excellent analytical technical mind and would make an excellent (for example) computer programmer. But she was never exposed to anything technical, and grew up in a very conservative environment, and despite being an outspoken feminist by her teenage years she'd internalised the fact that techie things just weren't for her despite having an engineer for a father. I'd explain things from my work to her, and she'd get them immediately, and it took many years of pointing out how unusual this is for a completely un-trained person that she started to appreciate it. And incidentally she earns about a fifth of what I do and works much harder.

it goes both ways, generations of men being told to do ‘manly things’ and women doing ‘women things’.

So STOP. Give up biking and do the things you really want to do. You can't help other people but you can sort yourself right now and take up the hobbies you really will enjoy, not the one's society has tricked you into becasue of your gender.

white men saying there’s no problem because we know someone from whichever demographic the thread is about.

Errr, no in this case we're told the men are the victims. We're being pushed by society into specific hobbies we don't really like doing (like biking) rather than doing the cool stuff that deep down we would want to do but society doesn't encourage us do do. We're told women have the same problem.

Outofbreath - the thing is I really like biking, mountaineering, kayaking and surfing. But that’s because I grew up in an area where dicking about on bikes/MXs, etc was what boys did. And the other sports I picked up in college where I was doing a course about outdoor sports management (and subsea spent the next 10 years travelling the world doing it). Sometimes we’d have girls trying to not do caving or kayaking or rock climbing because it ‘wasn’t girly’ and couple of guys teaching it wasn’t going to convince them it wasn’t, even though they thoroughly enjoyed it. Once more and more women started instructing, teaching and coaching the attitudes very gradually started to change. And hopefully the will.

Society isn’t making us do these things, but it pressurises us into thinking about certain stuff as boys or girls stuff. Barbie vs Action Man. Rugby vs netball, football vs hockey. My schooling was 80s to mid-90s and I’m pretty sure that no girl was taught rugby at any of the schools I went to (apart from touch/‘new image’ rugby) because ‘it was for boys’.

Although judging by the way some people on here think there was no social bias solely because I knew 1 girl at my school who played rugby to a very high standard completely independent of our school. So that makes it alright.

And that’s the point I’m trying to make when all of mainstream society/branding/toys/TV/etc says ‘girls do this and boys do that’ us parents have an uphill battle from day one.

It’ll take time and it’ll take a lot of positive change.

I’m not saying there is a conspiracy.

I’m saying that little kids absorb what’s around them. You don’t have to TELL girls that only boys ride bikes – if they only see boys riding bikes then they’ll infer it’s a boy’s thing.

Yep the data on what jobs/careers kids consider are frightening. Wouldn't be hard to imagine it's the same for other choices.

By the age of seven, children are already facing limits on their future aspirations in work, according to a report from the OECD international economics think tank.

Andreas Schleicher, the OECD's director of education and skills, says "talent is being wasted" because of ingrained stereotyping about social background, gender and race.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50042459

I really like biking, mountaineering, kayaking and surfing. But that’s because I grew up in an area where dicking about on bikes/MXs, etc was what boys did.

Which is it? If you really enjoy them great, carry on. If on the other hand you're doing them because you grew up in an area where people of your gender did them then that is a terrible reason. STOP now and do something you genuinely like.

Stop blaming other people for your own hobby choices.

I’m not blaming people for my choices. I’m saying that society most likely heavily influenced a lot of my choices and perceptions growing up. I ditched all the stuff I did because ‘that’s what guys do’ eventually. But I came from a rather liberal and atypical family that encouraged stuff outside the norm. And I can still admit that I was heavily influenced by gender stereotypes even then.

But it took me quite a long time to realise and understand these things and how they affect us (and our children) and have made it a goal to study, understand and try to change it as best I can for my kids’ generation onwards.

As someone pointed out in both this thread and the other one, these things won’t change until basically all the (mainly) white men realise what is actually happening, start admitting that it’s real and listening to the people it effects and how they would go about fixing it.
FFS it’s only been a few years since the outdoors industry started to move away from the ‘shrink it ‘n’ pink it’ attitude for equipment and clothing (and some still do).

Half the bike industry still think that female riders need special women specific geometry because they are different to men (which is true to some extent, but in my close family alone I have a mum who’s 5’1 with super short legs and an aunt and cousin who are over 6’ with incredibly long limbs) and still try to lump women’s shape into one style when the actual fact is that women’s shape and sizes vary as much, if not more than that of men.

There are scientific studies, dissertations, magazine articles everywhere demonstrating, proving and explaining how society, media and marketing specifically aim and target boys, girls, men and women and pressurises them into different ways of thinking about stuff. He’ll, theorems been at least 3 TED talks I’ve seen in the last 5 years that break it down into layman’s terms for us all.

I really like dancing, sewing & drawing. I knew this as a child because as a girl I was given the opportunity to try them and find out. It was only later in life that I found out a also enjoy biking, kayaking and climbing. I'm sure there are some boys that would have enjoyed to dance or sew but they weren't given the opportunity to try (hopefully they've tried it later in life). There's nothing that says everyone should enjoy every sport only that you don't tend to find out unless you try it and your less likely to try if you can't see anyone like you doing it.
I'm sure even if there was no bias at all it wouldn't be 50/50 but equally its fairly off putting to be the only person like you doing something.

By the way that video in the OP was excellent.

As someone pointed out in both this thread and the other one, these things won’t change until basically all the (mainly) white men realise what is actually happening, start admitting that it’s real and listening to the people it effects and how they would go about fixing it.
FFS it’s only been a few years since the outdoors industry started to move away from the ‘shrink it ‘n’ pink it’ attitude for equipment and clothing (and some still do).

There's a flip side to that. If women are empowered to do different jobs and earn more men will be empowered to earn less and do different jobs, this will again further empower women...and then Giant might make those mens bikes paint jobs as good as the Liv bikes!! Men are too wrapped up in being protectors and bread winners and all that macho bullshit that drives all sorts of bad shit in society, all of which would be helped by empowering women. Take covid, men are more likely to die but more women have been vaccinated as men are too busy bread winning or being macho to take time off to get vaccinated.

I’m seeing this from a different angle, my daughter is 8 and loves riding her mtb. Happy riding 10-15 miles with me at a steady pace. But she is the only girl amongst her friends that rides lots and wants to go for a ride. So when I organise a kids ride with parents it’s pretty much only boys from her class that turn up. She’s also small for her age and has no chance of keeping up with the boys who are bigger. So much so she’s losing interest in riding with them. I’m hoping she’ll continue to ride but when all her girl friends have little interest she’s very much on her own and it seems at 8 years old there’s very much them and us with girls and boys. As to why none of the other girls want to ride who knows the answer as several of them have parents that encourage them as I’ve done

It’ll take time and it’ll take a lot of positive change.

Forcing people to do something they don't want to isn't positive in my book.

I really like dancing, sewing & drawing.

I absolutely hate dancing and drawing. Why should I be forced to do them?

My schooling was 80s to mid-90s and I’m pretty sure that no girl was taught rugby at any of the schools I went to (apart from touch/‘new image’ rugby) because ‘it was for boys’.

No girl ever did Rugby at my school either .. because the school didn't do rugby not because of their gender.

My experience is that today it is not MEN telling women what sports they can and can't do but other women... I honestly think most men are onboard ... however some women are clinging to a different reality.

The same goes for many other things... I was shocked by the complete lack of sympathy my son's mother had for her sister who nearly died (again) because "she shouldn't be doing that stuff".

In the same with son's mother says she can't change a wheel because that's a man job... can't fix her NetFlix... etc. and struggles with why I'm the one has to do all the sewing in the house because she just doesn't like it but presumably could do it if she liked ???

Its not just her .. my neighbour regularly comes round to ask for help for things his wife has deemed "man jobs"... in a strange STW twist the last was fitting the flue for the new log burner.. apparently a man just looks at a piece of flu at it will magically cut itself...

I have a long list of things "real men" can do... like being able to see the TV on the ground floor whilst aligning the aerial on the roof... (because I asked if she could stand where she could see the TV whilst I aligned the aerial - I was told "real men don't need help" ) - I don't remember why she can't hold a paintbrush or roller... but she had a reason...

I don't think these anti-feminist/equality women are very numerous today but they do have a bigger voice because "only women are allowed to have an opinion" so their voice is louder.

Perhaps it's worth questioning that mantra?

I've also met a few men that for various reasons won't do "manual work" whatever that is today (separate thread). This included changing light bulbs... (literally not figuratively and screw thread not bayonet)

I suspect this is closer in 2021 as to why some women don't want to do certain things than being actively prevented from doing them.

(disclosure the bloke I'm thinking of was some 3rd cousin or something of the Hapsburg's slumming it as a Financial Manager but perhaps that's a good example because of this?)

The similarity I see ...
When the guy was having his light bulb changed by the manual worker he saw fit to tell the manual worker HOW to do it... same when my mate was changing a wheel for him... he was sat on a wall telling my mate how to change a wheel... but refusing to get his hands dirty

It's the same thing I see changing a wheel for the son's mother... or fixing netflix etc. she has to TELL ME HOW .. she won't do it but has to manage. The same with Debbie the neighbour... she will be telling her husband (coincidentally also Steve) how he should do some manual work she won't even try and do... then berate him.

Incidentally one of my best and oldest friends who happens to be female is the person I trust most to rebuild an engine (pretty much any engine)... but weirdly her brother is not far past being able to change a light bulb.

Gotta shoot .. meeting 3 people at Rogate... (erm 2 female as it happens not that I'd thought of it that way until this thread)

It’ll take time and it’ll take a lot of positive change.

It would take time to convince everyone to change, but you can change right now. Sell your bikes. Stop posting on STW, head over to Mumsnet. Buy yourself some Marian Keys books. You can do the things society has conditioned you away from *right now*.

Outofbreath was it nature or nurture that made you a bit of a wally?

@joshvegas Is @outofbreath the wally or the people claiming that they are happy with the lot that they have been brainwashed into, but we should feel sorry for the stuff women have been brainwashed into.

The irony basically that are saying that somehow men get a the better brainwashing or that somehow men don't get brainwashed and thus women are weaker.

The whole argument is nonsense and I think outofbreath is just highlighting that.

@Molgrips does not want to give up his brainwashed activity's so what makes some people think that women do? Could it be they have as much strength of character as men and are just doing what they enjoy?

Yet you’d know immediately from their youtube history which tablet belonged to a lad. He hasn’t been brainwashed, it’s his nature.

I think there has been stuff in the news about people getting pulled into rabbit holes on youtube... Perhaps he is seeing on youtube himself in some videos and not in others.

MY daughter changed as soon as she went to nursery. Staff interaction, speaking to other children etc.

You are not the only influence on your child.

@Molgrips does not want to give up his brainwashed activity’s so what makes some people think that women do? Could it be they have as much strength of character as men and are just doing what they enjoy?

This.

The whole narrative is that men are doing the "correct" hobbies and are impervious to brainwashing but women are feeble minded victims who don't realize they've been brainwashed and will continue to mindlessly do stuff they don't really like until men mansplain to them that they are all wrong.

Errr, no in this case we’re told the men are the victims. We’re being pushed by society into specific hobbies we don’t really like doing

That is totally and completely NOT what I am saying!

I'm saying that we might like lots of things, but society conditions us to pursue certain things but not others. This means that you might miss out on something you would have really liked.

No-one's consciously slaving away doing something they hate and looking wistfully out of the window at the surfers or bikers and thinking 'I wish I could do that but I'm a girl'. At least, not in this country I'm sure. I'm talking about subconscious conditioning which leads people not to bother even thinking about the biking or the sewing etc as something they could do - they don't think they'll enjoy it, because they think it's not for them. Like the example given with the kayaking. If one woman turns up at the taster session they rarely continue - but if three women turn up or there's a woman coach, they do. It's about identifying with the activity. The single women who turn up are clearly interested in kayaking, because they've made the effort to come, but something about the session meant they didn't enjoy themselves particularly, despite the activity being the same as when the groups of women turn up. Is this just a co-incidence? In the face of all the evidence we see, I doubt it.

Forcing people to do something they don’t want to isn’t positive in my book.

How on EARTH could you possibly think that this is what's being suggested?

because “only women are allowed to have an opinion”

Honestly - what the ****? I can't conceive how you could possibly think this is what people are suggesting!

Let me give you all a tip - if you read a well reasoned argument on the internet and it seems absolutely preposterous - that probably means you haven't got the point. OutOfBreath, you are apparently interpreting my argument as being absurd, but if you give me a bit of credit for my intelligence you should go back and read again. You've understood more or less the exact opposite of what I really mean.

The real issue is that you are saying 'men this' and 'women that'. That is the root cause of this. It's futile but also damaging to say that. If I said 'men like outdoorsy things' that would be just as wrong as saying 'women like outdoorsy things'. Because some men and some women do, and other men and other women also don't. You can like whatever you like (obviously!!!) but you must not talk in generic terms about genders, because that then leads to the kind of social condition that leads to people not realising that they might like something.

The whole narrative is that men are doing the “correct” hobbies and are impervious to brainwashing but women are feeble minded victims who don’t realize they’ve been brainwashed and will continue to mindlessly do stuff they don’t really like until men mansplain to them that they are all wrong.

THAT IS NOT THE NARRATIVE!

****'s sake.

@molgrips - you and I both know that outofbreath isn't so stupid as to unintentionally misinterpret your point.

@molgrips, what is the narrative then ?

I hear poor women we need to help them, but men don't need help in choosing their leisure activities.

You may not think that's what you are saying, but you are.

zerocool
Molgrips I feel your pain.

RSI ?

Well this has gone a bit weird....

I just kind of assumed everyone should be free to have a go at anything they fancy, and we all need to make sure we are helping and not hindering that, which may mean some eople and groups need extra help.

It's plain that some folk on this thread need extra help.

@molgrips, what is the narrative then ?

Haven't you been reading the thread?

Let's summarise:

1. Society conditions boys, girls, men and women to like certain things and not like other things. We need to work against that, because people are missing out on opportunities that they would enjoy and in some cases could make a big positive difference to people's lives.

2. We must not generalise about men and women because this is how point 1 comes about. Even if 80% of women would never like something, we mustn't say 'women don't like that thing' because a good portion of the remaining 20% would probably be dissuaded from doing it from early childhood. And we mustn't say 'women don't do that thing' because that will have the same effect.

3. We work against point 1 by dissolving these ideas - by depicting the activities we love (whatever they are) as being inclusive and importantly NORMAL. If this means women only clubs or sessions of whatever it is then fine.

4. 'Liking' an activity is a pretty fluid idea. How many times have we done something with a boring group of people or on a crappy day or a badly run course and thought 'bah that was rubbish', when we could have done the same thing with a great group of mates and had a great time? Most activities are good, otherwise no-one would do them, but how we pick the ones we end up doing is complex and influenced by many things. But gender should NOT be one of them.

Just re posting from 2 pages back (although I have corrected the grammar!!)

You can keep trying molgrips, I don’t think he will get it though!!!

Most of us get it molgrips, i think you have been really clear. Some of us are either really really feel threatened by something or are deliberately trying to get a rise.

Probably time to give up.

@molgrips - you do get the feeling that some here are deliberately misunderstanding what the point is here, because otherwise it might mean admitting they're wrong about something.. 🤔

Actually, I can give a couple of good examples here:

1. Society says that eating meat is macho, masculine, tough, etc - hence why most vegetarians/vegans are women (because they can see through or aren't affected by that conditioning), and why you end up with pejorative terms like "soy boy" and so on. However, I grew up with a dad who was, and still is, vegetarian - so seeing that as a primary influence meant that the notion of men who don't eat meat as weak held less sway, which made it very easy for me to go vegan.

2. As a kid I skateboarded and rode BMXs, mountain bikes, etc because that's what my friends did, and I loved it (and still do) - but they were very much "boy" things. I knew of girls at my school that rode horses, but that was seen as being a "girls thing" that boys didn't do. Having now had the chance to get into horse riding as an adult, I wish that it hadn't been seen as something that boys didn't do, because I could have been a half-decent rider and not had to overcome a lot of the fears that I've had due to learning to ride as an adult that have hindered me.

So,there - I've actively stopped doing something that society deems men should do thanks to seeing someone in my youth who bucked societal norms, and have started doing something as an adult that I wish I'd had the opportunity to do as a youth but didn't because it wasn't seen as normal for my gender and I didn't see anyone of my gender doing it. Which is exactly the point being made here!

.

deliberately trying to get a rise.

I believe the term is trolls and agree best to not waste any more typing on them.

No people are interested in a debate, and what they get instead is called names.

No they aren't.

So,there – I’ve actively stopped doing something that society deems men should do thanks to seeing someone in my youth who bucked societal norms, and have started doing something as an adult that I wish I’d had the opportunity to do as a youth but didn’t because it wasn’t seen as normal for my gender and I didn’t see anyone of my gender doing it.

That's great, overcome your conditioning and do the things you want to do. That's exactly what I'm advocating.

I get that, but the main thing that's being advocated is a removal of the societal norms so that in the future people don't grow up conditioned to think that certain activities aren't for them due to their gender/race/etc, and thus don't have any conditioning to overcome - do you get that?

do you get that?

I think his brain has exploded 😃😃😃😃

Outofbreath. The point I’m trying to make is that rugby, biking, wrestling, cars, mechanics/engineering isn’t a man thing and seeing, cooking, staying home and raising your children while hubby goes to work down t pit isn’t woman’s stuff. These are all just preconceived ideas that have gradually been put in place over the last however many decades/centuries.

But after reading your all your posts I’ve finally come to the conclusion that you either A) don’t quite get it,
B) are a troll or
C) just a massive bellend
So I’m going to give up trying to make you understand where I’m coming from.

Tootle pip.
Tom Kp

Ps - Molgrips seems to understand.

The point I’m trying to make is that rugby, biking, wrestling, cars, mechanics/engineering isn’t a man thing and seeing, cooking, staying home and raising your children while hubby goes to work down t pit isn’t woman’s stuff.

Of course they're not, nobody is saying they are. But there are people in this thread who used to regard them as such and say they do gender specific stuff themselves to this day *because* they thought they had thought they were gender specific in the past.

I'm saying the easiest solution to that is for them to do the stuff they want to do regardless of their previous gender assumptions about those activities.

You've been given on example of someone who thought horse riding was a female pursuit (which is a bit mad, my brother rides horses and male riders are commonplace, unremarkable. There are less female jockeys than male IME) and in later life has decided to do it in spite of his previois views. If he can do it, you can do it. Get a grip, put aside your predudice and quit the things you're doing because you think society expects it and start doing the things you want to do. Don't blame society for your life choices. Take responsibility for your own hobbies.

(Alternatively, if you think you genuinely like your hobbies and don't want to change them them then you might want to face the fact that other people feel the same way as you.)

As I touched on above I also think the cited examples of gender specific hobbies are terrible. Men in Horse riding are totally unremarkable, if you saw a bloke on a horse you wouldn't think it worthy of comment. Ditto women on bikes, I'm struggling to think of a woman who doesn't own and use a bike among my own neighbours and friends. Riding around my local area it's deffo 50/50 with many people riding as couples and in family groups. Kayaking was offered as an example as well - I kayak a lot - among the people I see there's a 50/50 split but I don't count them all so maybe that's wrong. My daughter has joined a kayak club this year - those numbers I can count and there's exactly 50/50 split - they allocate places in that ratio. I'm sure people could have come up with far better examples than those cited. Even rugby - the club's I'm familiar with all have one or two women's teams and 2/3 men's tears. I reckon on average that works out higher than 1/3 of the participants are female. There are far better examples.

Ffs out of breath, are you just deliberately trolling now..?

But there are people in this thread who ... say they do gender specific stuff themselves to this day *because* they thought they had thought they were gender specific in the past.

You’ve been given on example of someone who thought horse riding was a female pursuit (which is a bit mad, my brother rides horses and male riders are commonplace, unremarkable. There are less female jockeys than male IME)

<bangs head against brick wall>

I’m saying the easiest solution to that is for them to do the stuff they want to do regardless of their previous gender assumptions about those activities

Dear god, could you be more stupid?!!?!?!

But there are people in this thread who … say they do gender specific stuff themselves to this day *because* they thought they had thought they were gender specific in the past.

Literally nobody has said that..

Here's someone saying it: "I wish I’d had the opportunity to do as a youth but didn’t because it wasn’t seen as normal for my gender and I didn’t see anyone of my gender doing it."

you’ve actually proven my point in a way – because you knew someone of your gender who rode horses, it wasn’t ever presented to you as something that wasn’t for your gender.

Not really, I'm saying I think horse riding is a very poor example of a gender specific pass time and I explained why. If people think otherwise fair enough, the specific examples make no difference to anything under discussion.

Is it just me or have you just quoted someone saying the exact opposite of what you have claimed they have said? As in you're claiming that someone has said that they DO things because of conditioning by quoting someone saying that they DID NOT DO something because of conditioning?

As someone who has never felt the need to see someone of the same gender doing something that I fancy having a go at or have it presented to me as a choice I find this thread very confusing.

I thought society had moved forward quite a lot since the 60s and 70s when I was a kid. But after reading this thread I think there are more worrying issues than gender equality being raised here.

Is it just me or have you just quoted someone saying the exact opposite of what you have claimed they have said? As in you’re claiming that someone has said that they DO things because of conditioning by quoting someone saying that they DID NOT DO something because of conditioning?

You're right, I meant not do in my original post. Not sure it makes any difference, if they've been conditioned not to do horse riding by definition they must be doing something else that suits their conditioning better, unless they spent the time they would have spent horse riding sitting still in a darkened room.

I think this is where your argument is failing though.
Your premise appears to be that people are ONLY doing the things they do because they are conditioned to do them. When the reality is that it is more likely that people are conditioned to perceive a set of options, and then pick from them. If, as per the above example the options presented to a male were MTB/football/rugby/competitive drinking, but the male in question was discouraged from horse riding, it doesn't actually mean that they don't enjoy MTB. It just means that they may have chosen to do horse riding AS WELL AS something else. Or it may have replaced some other hobby. There is no logical reason as you keep asserting that if a man wishes to take up knitting, he must give up football, or cycling, or hitting people in the face after 8 pints of Stella. The fact that you keep insisting that everyone must give up everything that they do and choose another subset of hobbies instead suggests that you actually believe that there are subsets of hobbies that are male and female.

Ah, the old "I've never experienced it so therefore there isn't a problem" defence.. 🤣

If you grew up in an environment where you had no influences on what was or wasn't expected of you or open to you due to your gender, or were immune to those influences then bully for you. But those influences are still extant, still subconscious, and still insidious. They also apply to not only your gender, but your ethnicity, social class, sexuality, and more. One of the most important things that can be done to reduce this is to make sure that kids are exposed to media showing people who are like them having experiences that previously they may have perceived as unavailable. See: normalisation of gay relationships and romances in film and on TV, etc.

This is really not that hard to understand.. 🤦‍♂️

To summarise while trying to type on a tiny phone screen:

The general premise that you appear to be arguing against is that society presents an almost subconscious set of choices to individuals of male and female pursuits. Thus some feel excluded from following particular pursuits that are in the "wrong" category.

E.g. I am given the choice of apple, orange or banana. My sister is given the choice of grapes, raspberries or beetroot. If I choose apple, even though I would quite like some raspberries, that doesn't actually mean that I don't like apples, oranges, or bananas. It just means I don't get raspberries because they are not on offer

Can I suggest a little light reading of Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez?

Your premise appears to be that people are ONLY doing the things they do because they are conditioned to do them.

No. I think people are saying that conditioning is a significant factor for large gender disparities in take up of pass times/interests/hobbies. Not the only factor.

There is no logical reason as you keep asserting that if a man wishes to take up knitting, he must give up football, or cycling, or hitting people in the face after 8 pints of Stella. The fact that you keep insisting that everyone must give up everything that they do and choose another subset of hobbies

Yeah, no need to give up anything. Just do exactly what the horse riding guy did, take up the stuff you fancy regardless of whatever conditioning you think you've had. ...but by definition if you do more of one thing you will tend to do less of other things. If you spend more time reading chick-lit you're gonna have less time to make the airfix models of spitfires you've been (partially) conditioned to do.

Ok, we seem to be getting somewhere. So if you are saying there's no need to give up anything, why were you insisting to an earlier poster that they should sell their bikes, stop posting on single-track and instead join Mumsnet and start reading "chick-lit" (I assume that is the author you were referencing, not familiar with their work. But again, clearly referencing "chick-lit" is not going to discourage males from exploring their work is it?)?

Why did you insist they would have to leave Single-track and post only on Mumsnet? Why not both?

And yes, you are correct, people are saying that conditioning plays a large part in the choices people believe are open to them.

What you appear to be arguing back though is that people cannot be enjoying any of the choices they have selected from the options given to them, purely because they may also have enjoyed the options of thngs that were believed to be not available to them.

I'm sorry. I couldn't see past the hot pants the girls were wearing.....

Blah blah blah.... Yeah, more girlz is good.

@idiotdogbrain Was your last comment aimed at me? If so, I wasn't offering a defence for anything. Of course I am aware that inequalities exist I just think it could be tackled at a more fundamental level.

outofbreath

Not really, I’m saying I think horse riding is a very poor example of a gender specific pass time and I explained why. If people think otherwise fair enough, the specific examples make no difference to anything under discussion.

Horse riding is perhaps a very good example of why certain people do certain things, it just has little or nothing to do with gender.

I grew up on skank estates, I for reasons I don't remember really wanted a horse (probably the books I was reading).
I'm pretty sure the reason I didn't get a horse had nothing to do with my gender and more to do with not having enough food or heating for the 3 of us without a horse.

My mate Martin (primary school) was always the smallest in the year ... he actually dreamed of being a jockey.

My mate Neil (secondary) lived on a farm and though they weren't well off had a horse in the family... again this is hardly rocket science is it?

idiotdogbrain

Ah, the old “I’ve never experienced it so therefore there isn’t a problem” defence.

Erm.. perhaps because that seems to be the exact point being missed that OOB is making.
It just doesn't fit the narrative.

.. lets say girls in the UK have no peers for DH ? (oh - oops )
or Why didn't Jolanda Neff (or Nino for that matter) take up DH? (In the case of Jolanda earlier)

is this because of their specific genders ?

What about Maren Lundby ... does she do Ski jumping because its a 'women's sport' or because the Norwegian Ski Federation pour 95% (whatever it is this year) of all funding into ski jumping?

Or to put it another way, why did the Jamaicans give up bob sleigh or where is Edwina the Eagle?
Or in terms of MTB gender equality how couldn't we get a womens rider to the WC with Tahnee and Rachel out through injury?

I thought society had moved forward quite a lot since the 60s and 70s when I was a kid. But after reading this thread I think there are more worrying issues than gender equality being raised here.

To put that in context ?
The issue is being misrepresented ...
We couldn't get a woman to the DH world cup because BC wouldn't pay... pure and simple.
If DH was an Olympic sport they'd have been all over it.

The reason no-one M/F I grew up with rides horses is because it's an elitist sport with a high cost of entry.

The reason I did martial arts, fell running, climbing, caving, kayaking and bikes were simply down to availability and with the only exception of being near 50/50 on caving where there were definitely more males and kayaking where there were definitely more females. (NE lancs 1970's)

If I look at my sons friends today I'm pretty sure if I actually totted up more than 50% of his MTB friends we ride with are female.

The only people I hear objecting to girls riding MTB are not men but women and I say that in all seriousness. Mothers, sisters and grandmothers even ... I have never to my recollection heard a bloke say "girls shouldn't be doing that" but I have heard it from countless mothers.

I can also say that until this year my son never thought if the people he were riding with were M/F either and the only reason he seems to have now noticed is because his hormones started to kick in and he seems to have has developed a preference for riding with (hanging out around) girls.

Horse riding is perhaps a very good example of why certain people do certain things, it just has little or nothing to do with gender.

Apart from the fact that the majority of horse riders are female of course.

I live in horse riding land, neighbours each side of me own horses and I would estimate that a quarter of the village ride horses. How many of those are men? 1. Yes, 1.