[Closed] The woman who tragically died in Dent on the LEtJOG ride...

does it matter if she was/wasn't wearing a helmet though?

What a strange thread.

I am sure it will matter to knee-jerk local crappy paper. Whether or not the poor lady died of complications of a low-ish-speed impact to her head is another thing though. 🙁

What a strange thread.

My thoughts exactly when I opened it this morning. Was going to reply, but thought against it.

I'm not quite sure what the intended outcome of this thread is?

STW overeaction again.

There is no expected outcome to this thread. I asked a question - I wasn't lighting any touch papers and I certainly was not being disrespectful.

Given that helmet-wearing is pretty controversial, and the [url= http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cyclist-dies-on-cumbrian-road-1.877095?referrerPath=sport/town ]news reports[/url] say that she sustained serious head injuries, it should be made clear if she was or wasn't wearing a helmet.
A few years ago when I lived in Cambridge, the newspaper reported the death of a woman who got knocked off her bike. I know for a fact she never wore a helmet (I'd see her every day as rode to work), yet the paper said she dies of head injuries and didn't mention the helmet.

Sad for her and her family all the same.

Sometimes the police/ambulance press person will make the point of telling reporters about lack of helmet wearing, other times not.

Few reporters will think to ask the question - and if their editor prompts them to follow it up the information will possibly not be available without checking with the officer/paramedic at the scene - who will probably be off duty.

Just saying, in case anyone thought there was a consipiracy of silence on the subject or anything like that.

Overall, there aren't many cycle accidents where wearing a helmet is the difference between life and death. So not mentioning what is likely to be an irrelevance in this tragedy isn't really worth debating.

there aren't many cycle accidents where wearing a helmet is the difference between life and death

not this sh1t again, ir_bandito put a lid on it will you...

irbandito - 10 a year is the CTC estimate if everyone wore helmets

That's 10 lives.

You can't put a price on that.

Lets suppose the law is changed and everybody is required to wear a helmet. If 5 cyclists a year are saved from life threatening head injuries would that be worth it? In my mind yes.
The NHS spends millions every year to use newer and safer medication which in the end only actually save a few people per year compared to older ones.
How many people die as a result of wearing a helmet?

i think ten is a lot.

Edit: Edit: RIP cyclist. 🙁

hugor - Member

Lets suppose the law is changed and everybody is required to wear a helmet. If 5 cyclists a year are saved from life threatening head injuries would that be worth it? In my mind yes.
The NHS spends millions every year to use newer and safer medication which in the end only actually save a few people per year compared to older ones.
How many people die as a result of wearing a helmet?

200 more people would die from lack of exercise as they gave up cycling. thats the CTC position from looking at the evidence.

compulsory helmets cost lives

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=5339

200 people really need to get over themselves then, it's only a helmet ffs we are not out to pull

200 people really need to get over themselves then, it's only a helmet ffs we are not out to pull

LOL

God, it's like Groundhog Day...

When we've got compulsory helmets for cyclists, will we make them compulsory for the consumption of alcohol, seeing as how a significant number of head injuries are caused when people are drunk?

Or car drivers, who suffer a number of head injuries?

Or children, especially those who are at risk of being physically abused; significant number get head injuries...

And maybe before we make them compulsory, we could have some actual definitive evidence that they work, because the life saving potential of an inch of polystyrene would seem to be currently somewhat overstated.

Consider too that no helmet manufacturer has ever ever ever been sued, even in the US, when someone has ended up with a head injury while wearing a helmet.

Rather than trying to make protection compulsory, lets look at changing drivers behaviour, or is that too complex for us to even consider?

As you were...

I'm a Paramedic. Trust me, you should wear a helmet. Voice of experience here.

Oh yes, do carry on making political capital out of someones death, I'm sure it's what she would have wanted... 🙄

v8ninety - you don't trump crikey -nor the actual evidence

I'm an ITU nurse of 23 years, and I'm not convinced.

v8ninety - Member

I'm a Paramedic. Trust me, you should wear a helmet. Voice of experience here.

I mean no offence, but a surprising number of medical professionals told me my helmet saved my life when I had my big road crash, even though I wasn't wearing one.

I have worked in neuro ITU and neuro rehab ( a bit) Seen more drinking head injuries than cyclist ones - many more.

Sometimes this place is like an arsehole convention...

200 more people would die from lack of exercise as they gave up cycling. thats the CTC position from looking at the evidence.

Lol at Northwind, classic stuff.

I'm not anti helmet, just bought yet another, had one of the first Spesh Sub Sixes in the country back in the day, but it's so much more complex than helmet = no head injury or No helmet = certain deathy/disability.

Unfortunately people like soundbites rather than plowing through reams of data.

LOLLERCOPTERS @ Northwind

crikey -
Member
God, it's like Groundhog Day...

200 more people would die from lack of exercise as they gave up cycling. thats the CTC position from looking at the evidence.

Bollocks. If you're so vain that you give up cycling because you have to wear a helmet, you're not going to become a fat bloater, you'll find some other way to exercise.

Agree - every time I see those CTC figures I cringe, nothing to do with the helmet debate but its painful that on the one hand they demand the highest standards for data in favour of helmet prescription but on the other are quite happy to make this statement based on a limited body of study.

Actually given helmets increase drag, weight and perspiration surely we could aggregate up the health benefit of all that extra effort across cyclists and prove that mandatory helmet use would save lives through enhanced cardio workouts? 🙂

Still not in favour of prescription however.

And edited to add my sympathy for the poor lady who died, which was the reason I started to read the thread in the first place

.

Agree - every time I see those CTC figures I cringe, nothing to do with the helmet debate but its painful that on the one hand they demand the highest standards for data in favour of helmet prescription but on the other are quite happy to make this statement based on a limited body of study.

Huh? Plenty of research showing the same thing - minimal or no reduction in head injury as helmet wearing rates increase and that compulsory helmet wearing reduce the number of people who cycle significantly and that cycling improves health..

this was the BMA position until a recent undemocratic decision and its still the position of many medical folk.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4690

Time for a new Forum rule?

"Only one 'Helmet' thread per week / month ....year" ?

Unless this was the objective of the OP, isn't the (repeated) arguing of this topic a bit disrespectful to the victim, I just hope this thread doesn't come up on any searches of the incedent.

DEP.

ITU nurse of 23 years? Well you only see the ones that survived as far as hospital then, even if all they are good for is harvesting, don't you? Oh well.

More drinking injuries than cycling ones???? Well, duh, really? What a suprise. How many more people go end up in A&E through alcohol than through falling of a bike? Lol.

Listen. Wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet, I'm all for freedom of choice. You're not going to hurt anyone but yourself, after all. (i suppose your loved ones might be quite upset, mind you) Doesn't bother me, I mean you keep me in a job, right? All I'm going to say is it isn't the people that I've met who survived because of or despite the fact they were or weren't wearing a helmet that convinced me to wear one, it's that other, quieter type of patient that I come across from time to time.

Northwind, as a medical professional, I can conclusively tell you that it wasn't your helmet that saved your life, it was your big, thick skull. 😉

why do we have to do this?
no ones data is proof and no one convinces anyone. I dont think this thread was the best choice for this debate.
Bullheart +1

RIP to the cylist involved.
Having recently completed JOGLE and having several near misses (per day) it has put me off riding a road bike enough to sell mine 4 months after buying it and the day after i finished at Lands End, too many bad roads, too many bad drivers (especially here in Cornwall), even with a hi viz, helmet and gloves on i didn't lose the constant feeling of vulnerability, each to their own but i prefer to get my thrills hitting a trail faster than i should on my proper bike or attempting jumps, drops, trails a little out of my comfort zone not by getting clipped by a wing mirror or swerving to avoid a head on with some idiot who can't wait a few seconds.
Road bikes are gay and helmet threads are boring, end of thread.

TJ, let's not bore the good people now, but sometime I'd really like to have this out with you properly - all this lofty medic arrogance which actually flies in the face of overwhelming evidence, both anecdotal and from the bulk of research, that wearing hats clearly helps reduce death and serious injury on the margins.

Yes, if it's high velocity, then the hat don't help, and yes, plenty of hat wearers still get serious injuries (but otherwise might have died), and yes, the bulk of traumatic brain injuries are not caused to cyclists whether on or off the mountain or with or without the lid - they happen to people in RTAs, falls, assaults, etc. However, even if the likelihood of TBI is only marginally less through wearing a helmet - why not just do it? The hat won't harm you, or even your pride, or your gelled hair, let alone your 'libertarian rights'. Seems like plain perverse behaviour to me.

"v8ninety - Member

I'm a Paramedic. Trust me, you should wear a helmet. Voice of experience here. "

Please confirm...

1. You have never treated a motorist, pedestrian or anyone else in the with a head injury.

2. Are cyclists the most common group for head injuries? All stats suggest they are only a minority.

3. Do you give the same advice on prevention and recommend helmets for pedestrians and drivers/passengers.

4.If not, why do you feel head injuries in these groups are not worth being given the same professional advice reserved for cyclists?

meh, paramedics want people to wear helmets so they stop going to so many head injuries.

So ban smoking, they can stop going to so much breathing difficulties?

Im sorry but this can go on forever. There are good and bad points and everyone has their stance. As it is at the moment I don't really think it's the foremost priority for the government to resolve this issue.

irc....paramedic here too, cant answer for v8ninety but i'll give my opinion if it helps?

I wear a helmet on my bike, not for any great fear of other road users (i reckon if a car hits me hard enough i'll die regardless, motorcyclists die and they wear far more protective kit that we do)....a cycling helmet may protect my head but wont help if my chest, pelvis etc are mullered by a car.

I wear one because at times i hit a decent speed on the road....we're not talking 'Tour de France' mountain descent speeds but i reckon i'd hurt myself if i came off, i cant guarantee i'd tuck my head in or not hit the kerb either so i just play safe and wear the helmet instead...its slightly different when off road, my speeds tend to be lower but tree trunks look pretty hard when whizzing by even at my paltry speeds....therefore i wear a helmet, personal choice and if others dont want to wear one then thats cool, i didnt for years either but the older i get the less brave i get!

Regarding advising pedestrians, motorists etc to don helmets....you cant wrap people up in cotton wool even though it might be best for them!....walk into an A&E on a friday night and there will be a multitude of minor head injuries all waiting to be stitched up....would a helmet have prevented some of these?....no doubt, but who wants to go drinking wearing a helmet?....where do you draw the line?....back protectors for walking down stairs etc....

Common sense has to play a part, cycling sometimes involves moving at a faster speed than i can propel myself, there are times i dont feel 100% in control so the helmet gives me the percieved feeling of protection even if some evidence might suggest otherwise....when walking to the shops however i feel completely in control however misplaced that sense of security may be.

*faaz....the more injuries that occur then the more secure my job is!

Wow, so according to the 'wise' people of STW racing drivers, motorcyclists, horse riders, cricketers, soldiers, construction workers, firemen...etc etc should all throw out their helmets just because people driving normal cars and drunks don't wear them?

hmm common sense seems to override that philosophy doesn't it.

Wow, so according to the 'wise' people of STW racing drivers, motorcyclists, horse riders, cricketers, soldiers, construction workers, firemen...etc etc should all throw out their helmets just because people driving normal cars and drunks don't wear them?

hmm common sense seems to override that philosophy doesn't it.

Eh? Who's said that?

"Regarding advising pedestrians, motorists etc to don helmets....you cant wrap people up in cotton wool even though it might be best for them!....walk into an A&E on a friday night and there will be a multitude of minor head injuries all waiting to be stitched up....would a helmet have prevented some of these?....no doubt, but who wants to go drinking wearing a helmet?....where do you draw the line?"

We all draw it in different places so why do some people feel the need to preach about helmet wearing. Why do medical professionals single out cyclists?

If pedestrians and drivers can choose not to wear helmets despite them accounting for 99% of head injuries then so can cyclists.

Eh? Who's said that?

3. Do you give the same advice on prevention and recommend helmets for pedestrians and drivers/passengers.

4.If not, why do you feel head injuries in these groups are not worth being given the same professional advice reserved for cyclists?

This ^^^ and similar comments about drunks etc. Why stop at singling out the advice given to cyclists? What about everyone else who wears a helmet? Lets include them on the discussion too.

Why the hell is helmet wearing even a debate on a cycling forum?

I mean, seriously, why? Surely common sense would say that if you are going to crash/fall off and hit your head, having some protection there would be better than none?

Ultimately, that's what it comes down to - regardless of whether the crash was caused by a car, yourself or anything else - having head protection makes sense.

personally i'm not planning on crashing, falling or hitting my head, so i have no need for a helmet.

v8ninety - Member

Northwind, as a medical professional, I can conclusively tell you that it wasn't your helmet that saved your life, it was your big, thick skull.

I concur.

Ultimately, that's what it comes down to - regardless of whether the crash was caused by a car, yourself or anything else - having head protection makes sense.

Evidence justin bieber doesn't wear a helmet and gets a head injury.

1. You have never treated a motorist, pedestrian or anyone else in the with a head injury.

2. Are cyclists the most common group for head injuries? All stats suggest they are only a minority.

3. Do you give the same advice on prevention and recommend helmets for pedestrians and drivers/passengers.

4.If not, why do you feel head injuries in these groups are not worth being given the same professional advice reserved for cyclists?

For the record, I don't agree with compulsory helmet wearing, for bikes or even for motorcycles. I don't even care if you wear a seatbelt. It matters not by the time you meet me, just a matter of patient history, and maybe more challenging patient management. (or maybe just a case of covering with a blanket and filling in some paperwork, which is much easier) I'm all for personal choice and responsibility. Its up to you. I've ridden a motorcycle lidless through Arizona. It was my informed choice, and I had the capicity to make that decision, and it was fun.

I am not advising anyone whether they should wear a helmet or not. I'm just sharing what I do, and why. From the things I've seen, I have decided that a helmet has the potential to make a real difference, and thats enough for me. Wheres the downside? Why NOT wear one? You could say that you don't intend to fall off, but I don't think anyone does... You can be damn sure that my one year old son will be brought up never even considering not wearing a helmet.

BUT, if I don't ride with you, or you're not someone I care about, I REALLY couldn't care less about what interesting and inventive ways you think up of increasing your risks of injury. Like deviant says, You keep me in a job...

Here is a question: Your head is precious, traumatic injury to it can quite easily be serious, potentially life threatening and difficult to fix, unlike most other parts of your body that generally bounce well and sometime snap but will heal/can be fixed. You enjoy travelling faster than the human body was designed to, maybe surrounded by metal boxes that travel around many times faster, often driven by idiots that aren't paying attention. There is an easy way of providing a little additional protection for your head that neither breaks the bank, nor is incredibly inpractical or performance reducing. [b]why NOT wear a helmet?[/b]

well put.

I've never been in a car crash. But I still always wear my seatbelt, and buy modern cars with airbags and what-not.

I've never crashed or been knocked off my bike. But I still always wear a helmet.

It's about mitigiating against the worst-case scenario.

A serious head injury sustained whilst cycling may be unlikely, but the consequences are immense.

If something as serious as a head injury may be preventable, then why not take the precaution - if it reduces the likelihood of my young children growing up with a disabled* or deceased Dad then it's a no-brainer for me.

(*of course, there are numerous other injuries I could sustain that could leave me disabled, but if I worried about every possible eventuality then I'd never get out of bed in the morning)

Here is a question: ... why NOT wear a helmet?

Because I make a risk assesment of the activity I am going to undertake and for the vast majority of road cycling I am happy that I don't require a helmet and therefore I choose not to wear one. if the risk factors alter i.e off road, risk of falling increased for whatever reason I'll reconsider my desicion. To paraphrase a later poster; there are numerous other injuries I could sustain that could leave me disabled, but if I worried about every possible eventuality then I'd never get out of bed in the morning.

Why do people so keen on free choice and live and let live always try to convert non-serial helmet wearers?

Having seen the effect of head injuries on a couple of friends I usually wear a crash helmet.

One of them had a bad bike crash (ancient el-cheapo helmet failed) and one fell over in a swimming pool.

Slurred speech, memory loss, loss of concentration, unable to walk any distance, unable to ride a bike. I wouldn't want that.

They both got better and are now mostly fine but still very subtly different.

My thoughts are with the family and friends of this poor woman and their tragic loss.

Re car safety, there again some lack of knowledge being sprouted. You have more chance now of surviving a crash that before would have killed you outright. However the type of injuries you get now often mean slow painful death or painful reconstructive surgery to lead a less than normal life.

People just assume that 'safety' features ie helmets, air bags etc mean they will be ok, when there is no evidence to prove it.

And yes I wear a helmet but no I don't think it will save my life if I have a bad accident.

someone has died every year since 2008? 😯

why NOT wear a helmet?

A "[i]sense of security[/i]" is way over rated.

I make a risk assesment of the activity I am going to undertake and for the vast majority of road cycling I am happy that I don't require a helmet and therefore I choose not to wear one

Yes, helmet's are only good for sub 30mph incidents, but that can be all it takes.

Sorry, I'll stop ranting now.

I agree it shouldn't be a legal requirement though. If you don't have the common sense to save your own life, its Darwinian.

[i]I make a risk assesment of the activity I am going to undertake[/i]

I think what you probably do is decide if it 'feels' safe rather than review all the peer-moderated medical evidence, anecdotal evidence and accident statistics for the routes that you;re proposing to ride?

It's not a risk assesment, it's a 'do I feel confident enough on a road bike to not wear a helmet' assesment.

I'm all in favour of choice but I really don't understand why people choose not to if they have a helmet next to the bike. If it's uncomfrtable then get another lid, if it's comfortable then why not just put it on?

Having seen the effect of head injuries on a couple of friends I usually wear a crash helmet.

[i]. If you don't have the common sense to save your own life, its Darwinian.[/i]

But probably not in the way that you imagine though. The ladies get impregnated by some virile risked taking stud who doesn't wear a helmet, and then get's some cautious helmet wearing lesser male to raise it as their own.
But it's the helmetless rider who's genes get carried on to the next generation 🙂

I really don't understand why people choose not to if they have a helmet next to the bike.

[i]Have any of the fanatical helmet advocates yet justified why they don't do that? [/i]

It's not about being fanatical, it's about realising that there are things that ytou can do easily in a relatively high risk activity that make things safer.

Most car drivers wear seatbelts and the injury rate from accidents has reduced as a result. No one describes them as 'fanatical' seat belt wearers, they're just being sensible?

Pedestrian head injuries (not alcohol related) are fairly low?

So do you wear one when in a swimming pool and given your anecdotes, if not why not?

The risk factor in the swimming pool turned out to be drinking a (single) beer in the jacuzzi 🙄

On a bike, I wear a helmet. In a pool, I stay sober. Will this make me 100% safe? Of course not. But a broken brain isn't the same as broken ribs so I do what I can to take care of it.

it's about realising that there are things that ytou can do easily in a relatively high risk activity that make things safer

fanatical helmet advocates

TBH i dont care if people wear helmets and for those who dont I hope your heads are as thick as they appear to be 😉

[i]so why don't you?[/i]

because I'm not a bloody fool.

and the reason you don't wear a helmet on a bicycle?

and the reason you don't wear a helmet on a bicycle?

So Junky, presumably you wear a helmet when driving and walking?

mm wonders if we can have a grown up debate with a chance of persuading each other
Can I presume you have had a a head injury form not wearing one as seem to be repeating yourself a bit 😀

[i] and the reason you don't wear a helmet on a bicycle?

because I'm not a bloody fool. [/i]

well, you see, that's the point at which our opinions diverge quite substantially.

I think I'll walk away from this thread now, there's no real point to it - everyone's just standing at opposite ends of a car park shouting at each other.

the '[b]why not[/b]' people will never win the '[b]why[/b]' ones over and vice versa.

well, you see, that's the point at which our opinions diverge quite substantially.

the 'why not' people will never win the 'why' ones over and vice versa.

''when her bike failed to negotiate a bend.''????? Surly it was the women which did not negotiate the bend,not the bike.
I see so many road bikers cycling on the road with no helmets, its barmy, although if she was wearing a helmet, its just one of them things, it does not state wether it was external or internal head injuries,Most people die of damage that can not be seen due to the brain slamming into the skull and bleeding and swelling internaly.

So do you wear one when in a swimming pool, and given your anecdotes, if not why not?

🙂

At least my opinion is a rational one - you insult people for not wearing one when doing one activity, but consider that only a fool would wear one when doing another activity where a lump of polystyrene would actually be more useful.

I see so many road bikers cycling on the road with no helmets, its barmy

Less barmy than walking or driving with no helmet.

aracer - apologies I shouldn't have resorted to name calling.

I still don't understand why no one questions wearing a helmet on a motorbike around town at speeds less than 30 but are adamant that bicyclists are invulnerable and thus don't need one even though they probably average similar speeds. Anyway, that's all from me.

"I make a risk assesment of the activity I am going to undertake

I think what you probably do is decide if it 'feels' safe rather than review all the peer-moderated medical evidence, anecdotal evidence and accident statistics for the routes that you;re proposing to ride?

It's not a risk assesment, it's a 'do I feel confident enough on a road bike to not wear a helmet' assesment."

I make an assesment based on my riding skill, my general roadcraft skills, where i'm riding, the prevailing conditions, the nature of the activity, who I'm ridin with and other factors. Risks identified, outcomes considered, risk mitigation measures considered Good enough for me.

"It's not about being fanatical, it's about realising that there are things that ytou can do easily in a relatively high risk activity that make things safer."

When did cycling become a relatively high risk activity?

"I'm all in favour of choice "

"Why do people so keen on free choice and live and let live always try to convert non-serial helmet wearers?"