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So following the terrible injury to Paul Basagoitia last year and the resulting rider and press out cry ( mainly shown through the # of F##kRampage we seem to have lost the general distaste in the media, fourms, riders about the event. It seems to have died off completely, it sees that Paul Basagoitia is recovering slowly re learning to wallet but he's still not in a great place.
Is this just sponsorship overriding safety, should more have been done to keep riders safe? I know there is a level of risk in all riding at that level but this seems to have died a death.
Haven't they changed the format somewhat this year? More big mountain and less slopestyle on a big windy mountain...
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I've said a few times that the Rampage worries me and the risks are too great for riders up and coming to perform/push.
Abit of a weird analogy. In road cycling cyclists took risks with their health to win, beit by Amphetamines in the old days, doping, blood transfusions etc. In mountain biking it seems the health risks were externally pushed. A wrong analogy?
I was worried someone was gonna get killed at the world champs on Sunday. Is the sport as a whole going too far?
that. I love the spectacle and some people look beautifully in control but it does seem like the risks outweigh the rewards for mostI've said a few times that the Rampage worries me
You're just going to have to accept that the #gnarrporn world of [i]"actionsports"[/i] has rather a short collective memory and that 10 minutes or so of righteous indignation over any misfortune the participants might suffer is about the limit.
Is this just sponsorship overriding safety
Well Duh!
Somehow I doubt they'll be dwelling too much on last year, life changing injuries don't sell caffinated piss water...
In road cycling cyclists took risks with their health to win, beit by Amphetamines in the old days, doping, blood transfusions etc. In mountain biking it seems the health risks were externally pushed
A lot of the roadies doping didn't do it from desire to win, they were doing to keep their Contracs do they could keep food on the table. So probably no less external than rampage.
I'm conflicted when it comes to rampage, it's great to watch, until someone gets hurt.
Am I right to say it's off the FMBA tour? That's a good move if so, takes away a lot of the excess pressure to ride it.
It's pretty complicated isn't it. Some people seemed surprised to learn Rampage is dangerous. The lack of reward is a bit surprising to me (though we don't know what it's worth in terms of sponsorship etc, the prize fund may not be that important...) but it definitely shouldn't have been a surprise to competitors, that stuff felt either a bit daft or very opportunistic.
Brandon Turman's articles were pretty good I thought.
I was worried someone was gonna get killed at the world champs on Sunday. Is the sport as a whole going too far?
With the Hard Line this weekend people are bound to say (again) that all DH racing should be like that. It is a very impressive display of speed, skill and nerve and it is great to watch, but I don't think there'd be many pros queuing up for the World Cup circuit if all the races were that dangerous.
People want to do it, let them do it.
Why is it any different to extreme skiing etc?
As much as I don't want riders to get injured something like Rampage has to be big and have even hardcore MTBers amazed at the skills as that's all the event is about really. I can't ride 100th as well as a world cup XCer but I don't watch XC races transfixed by the crazy skills on display but then the skills is only part of XC racing.
I do understand the spectacle of the event and my sponsorship o ear riding safety was more rhetorical ( I think it does
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But if you look at F1 in the days of Prost, Senna etc the drivers started to band together a it more re safety it seems hats not happened yet with MTB free riding.
You're just going to have to accept that the #gnarrporn world of "actionsports" has rather a short collective memory and that 10 minutes or so ....
That'd be the concussion.
It's ridden by young men who are full of confidence and think they can pin it the whole way, bricking it at the top doesn't stop them, neither will chance of severe injury. Look at Mcgazza and stevie, both gone but not from mtb sponsored event injury.
Some of the backlash was already there, see the otherwise dull and badly edited Cam Zink film
http://www.redbull.com/us/en/bike/stories/1331740498875/new-documentary-highlights-rampage-icon-cam-zink
The spectale of rampage is huge, I'll say agin the TV doesn't do it justice at all. But the other fact is the riders pick threir own lines. In terms of Paul Bass's crash it really seemed to come down to him trying to bail before hitting a photographer. It was a messy crash but the level of crowd control on the race day was excellent, less so on the qulai day as I managed to get right up to the canyon gap.
Having said all that an event that has so much potential energery around it will always pose risks, the dirt is probably some of the most forgiving around.
In road cycling cyclists took risks with their health to win, beit by Amphetamines in the old days, doping, blood transfusions etc. In mountain biking it seems the health risks were externally pushed
More bones were broken in probably the TdF or the Olympic road race than at Rampage. Medics were on scene faster at Rampage than at either of the highest profile road cycling events of the year. There were 2 or 3 choppers on standby for medivac at all times.
The fact the riders are able to decide if they will run or not in the conditions also puts some of the power back with them. The event did feel like it was more facilitated by redbull but run by riders who really did know what they were doing.
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I think most of the upset was around two things - the level of risk versus reward - and the emphasis was very much on the reward side of that argument - and secondly the way it was jusdged - Zink felt the risks he took on hsi run weren't recognised in the judging, and more points were being awarded for sending the big pre-built lines.
not having medical insurance or checking that it covers you is the stupid part.
People want to do it, let them do it.Why is it any different to extreme skiing etc?
Because it's organised. There's a difference between shooting a video segment where you can control the camera angles to make it look good, you get to decided whether to wait half a day for the sun not to be in your eye or the wind to die down, etc.
Rampage is more a case of go big when your names called, or go home.
Because it's organised. There's a difference between shooting a video segment where you can control the camera angles to make it look good, you get to decided whether to wait half a day for the sun not to be in your eye or the wind to die down, etc.Rampage is more a case of go big when your names called, or go home.
There are plenty of similar format events in skiing.
I have to admit that I'm a of the opinion that these guys do it because they want to. They know the rules, and they know that if they get it right they'll get glory, and if they get it wrong they'll get hurt. Possibly seriously. It's pretty transparent, and therefore, I feel, rather fair.
It's not like there's a Red Bull rep at the top saying "no - don't worry, there are magic unicorns that will prevent you getting hurt if you fall"
It's not like there's a Red Bull rep at the top saying "no - don't worry, there are magic unicorns that will prevent you getting hurt if you fall"
Have you seen the red bull adverts? Gives you wings dunnit.
More bones were broken in probably the TdF or the Olympic road race than at Rampage
Indeed, but there was also around 170 more riders on the start line.
Medics were on scene faster at Rampage than at either of the highest profile road cycling events of the year.
Got any evidence for that?
The fact the riders are able to decide if they will run or not in the conditions also puts some of the power back with them.
True, but there is a heck of a lot of pressure for them to do the run. When your job is as an extreme athlete, saying 'No' to a run takes a lot and can cost you a lot.
But surely if your job is being an extreme athlete the risk is part of it. If they held Rampage at bikepark Wales on the A470 tabletops no one would watch it and everyone would want to have a go.
Bit harsh maybe but ultimately is that not the point, pushing limits?
Pretty sure the main issue wasn't the 'forcing' riders to take risks, as above that's their choice.
But the main issue was the rewards vs support. red-bull get massive exposure from the event and the risks the riders take, in return the riders get a very small payout and no ongoing support from red-bull if they injure themselves.
With the Hard Line this weekend people are bound to say (again) that all DH racing should be like that. It is a very impressive display of speed, skill and nerve and it is great to watch, but I don't think there'd be many pros queuing up for the World Cup circuit if all the races were that dangerous.
Yes, I was thinking along these lines - I don't think it's a coincidence that they run it at the end of the season. It is a great spectacle, but I wouldn't want anyone to be doing it for the money, in the case of this and Rampage.
That said it wouldn't hurt to provide medical cover for the participants rather than getting them to pretend they have it when half of them are living out of the back of a van.
If you could ride like that and there was a competition, where you got to ride an amazing location under controlled conditions, wouldn't you do it?
The fact that good riders won't do it, tells you that no not everyone would. It seems to be more the desperate freestyle / slopestyle rider that is willing to risk all at these events and those with more solid revenue streams stay away.
But the main issue was the rewards vs support. red-bull get massive exposure from the event and the risks the riders take, in return the riders get a very small payout and no ongoing support from red-bull if they injure themselves.
If the reward was bigger I wonder if there would be more injuries as more people think the risk would be worth it. I agree with the point about ongoing support though.
Ah now that's a valid point, the riders should be given medical insurance for competing, either by organisers or sponsors. Pretty stupid to do something like that without insurance
the level of risk versus reward
The reward is throwing yourself down a mountain using skill, and not killing yourself doing it. Its the best feeling out there, the prize is secondary.
You either get that bit or you don't.
Skiing back in the day I used seek out the stuff that was dangerous, bigger drops etc, try and do more difficult lines than my mates. Now in my 40's I wouldn't do half that stuff.
Don't Red Bull also ban journalists from filming & taking pictures of crashes that result in serious injuries?
The reward is throwing yourself down a mountain using skill, and not killing yourself doing it. Its the best feeling out there, the prize is secondary.You either get that bit or you don't.
What I said was what the riders were saying. Huge amounts of effort to create lines, with riders trying to get helpers work for free or peanuts, living 5 or 6 to a truckstop hotel room. Coming out of it with no return other than 'exposure' even if they dont seriously injure themselves, which they cant afford to insure against as (understandably) the premiums are huge.
The main gripe was Red-bull making a huge amount off it and not supporting the riders such as providing accom, food, medical support (not just immediate requirements on the mountain).
dragon - Member
Medics were on scene faster at Rampage than at either of the highest profile road cycling events of the year.
Got any evidence for that?
The file data on the pics has it as 13mins from Paul Bass dropping into the crash to the chopper taking off with him in it (it had 2 or 3 go's to land) the medics were with him in under a minute (I stopped taking pics)
There were people with Nicholi Rogatkin in under 30s
The main gripe was Red-bull making a huge amount off it and not supporting the riders such as providing accom, food, medical support (not just immediate requirements on the mountain).
It' hard to tell what Red Bull make, it's about $30US a ticket and limited numbers, probably 1000-1500 all in? so even at 2000 it's $60,000 USD. There will be sponsorship and merchandise on top of that.
There were 10 camera setups (8 fixed I think)
[url= https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5830/22105189310_31fd03746c_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5830/22105189310_31fd03746c_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/zFmSDC ]IMG_2769[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikewsmith/ ]Mike Smith[/url], on Flickr
Probably 30 staff doing tickets/merch and free redbull, 50+ Marshalls and barrier checkers, some rent a cops, 3 Helicopters, one doing video, medics on quads all over the place along with the power, food and drink hospitality and
the bandwidth to broadcast it Somebody even paid for Claudio to fly out there.
philjunior - MemberWith the Hard Line this weekend people are bound to say (again) that all DH racing should be like that. It is a very impressive display of speed, skill and nerve and it is great to watch, but I don't think there'd be many pros queuing up for the World Cup circuit if all the races were that dangerous.
Yes, I was thinking along these lines - I don't think it's a coincidence that they run it at the end of the season. It is a great spectacle, but I wouldn't want anyone to be doing it for the money, in the case of this and Rampage.
That said it wouldn't hurt to provide medical cover for the participants rather than getting them to pretend they have it when half of them are living out of the back of a van.
Brendon Fairclough was saying recently that he'd like to change the format of WCs and Worlds, far less riders, maybe 30 of each sex (although based on the current field I think they'd struggle to find 30 female riders at the level he wants) and make it much harder - although this was prior to this years worlds - it would make tracks like Hard Line more of the norm, but that's only the opinion of one rider, and one frankly it would suit.
As far Rampage, I said last year it was too much, RedBull with events like Rampage are looking to create content to entice non-riders, and if you've never really ridden a Mountain Bike, some impossibly tough stuff looks pretty mundane, TV never does justice to steepness or the speed of anything. Rampage footage will reach mainstream media, even if it's in things like Rudetube on E4, whereas WCs won't - to create that level of spectacle they have to convince riders to ride potentially fatal stuff - but they're all grownups, I just hope none of them get really badly hurt, and more so none of them are only their because they need the profile to ride bikes for money.
mikewsmith - Member
The main gripe was Red-bull making a huge amount off it and not supporting the riders such as providing accom, food, medical support (not just immediate requirements on the mountain).It' hard to tell what Red Bull make, it's about $30US a ticket and limited numbers
We all know its not about what RB make at the actual event, but whats its worth to them as a brand. If it was a small event or even just people riding in their own time then that's fine, but a big event run by a multi-billion$ company can afford to support their competitors a little bit more than they do. To not do so is morally objectionable and that is what they were being picked up on.
A fair point, it's also a murky world of where red bull actually pull cash in from. I genuinely dont know.
A fair point, it's also a murky world of where red bull actually pull cash in from. I genuinely dont know.
mikewsmith - MemberA fair point, it's also a murky world of where red bull actually pull cash in from. I genuinely dont know.
It's not Rocket Surgery, Red Bull sold 5.6 BILLION cans of pop globally in 2014 and generated €5 billion in revenue from that. If they have a similar model to Coke and Pepsi then about a quarter will go on production, packaging, shipping and to retailers, a quarter will go on Marketing and half is profit. So they're spending about €1.4 billion a year on marketing. They do traditional marketing like TV ads, but they've built the brand on 'extremeness'.
Rampage and Mountain Biking in General is actually a decent sized portion of their output, not as big as their football clubs or F1 teams of course, but it has an onus that's disproportionally greater than MTBs place in the world.
Because they're a private company they don't produce too much data, but it's not impossible that some of their 'promotions' are actually income generating - if Mclaren made F1 profitable before they had road cars to sell, Williams do now. I don't know much about football, but I assume you can make a team work without going all giddy and spunking all your money on surly teenager with hair gel to kick your pigskin about.
What I always wonder is - who actually drinks redbull though? I mean, apart from on a night out when you're wasted and think it's a good idea?
and half is profit.
I very much doubt that. Gross margin may be in the region of 50% (would need to check) but would wager that their profit margin is considerably less. Probabaly 20-25% at the OP level and less at the PBT or PAT stage
would be interesting to know the exact figure...
More bones were broken in probably the TdF or the Olympic road race than at Rampage. Medics were on scene faster at Rampage than at either of the highest profile road cycling events of the year. There were 2 or 3 choppers on standby for medivac at all times.
The fact the riders are able to decide if they will run or not in the conditions also puts some of the power back with them. The event did feel like it was more facilitated by redbull but run by riders who really did know what they were doing.
Very good points
What I always wonder is - who actually drinks redbull though? I mean, apart from on a night out when you're wasted and think it's a good idea?
I reckon thats the largest chunk of it!
I think the Rampage is in danger of getting too big these days - some of the gaps etc are huge and it doesn't sound like the (financial) reward for the riders is there. Of course there's the kudos / bro-slaps for doing well.
From Red Bull's point of view it does generate interest outside of mountain biking - a fair few people I know who have no interest in bikes were sharing McGarry's helmet cam vid of the canyon back flip etc.
I get the impression that Zink was largely screwed over massively at one stage - no support from sponsors for riding it and then naff all prize money.
In a nation of massive medical bills and with risks these huge, I can't imagine any / many / all of the riders being able to afford proper insurance cover. Feels to me like Red Bull have a moral responsibility to look after the riders, but I'll be very pleasantly surprised if they do so.
No ones holding a gun to their heads and making them ride. I'd say most riders (who are into this sort of riding) want to attend this event and the money doesnt really factor into it.
They love riding and know the risks so this is just another great experience for them.
Out of curiosity does anyone know what the winner of the fest series rounds wins or even how they decide a winner? It seems like a lot of the riders in that are in it mostly for the fun and I think the gaps in that are the size of most of the gaps in rampage but less chance of falling off a cliff to be fair...
I get the impression that Zink was largely screwed over massively at one stage - no support from sponsors for riding it and then naff all prize money.
If his film is to be believed his entire career since he left a newly formed syndicate. Companies going bust and not following through on promises
No ones holding a gun to their heads and making them ride. I'd say most riders (who are into this sort of riding) want to attend this event and the money doesnt really factor into it.
They love riding and know the risks so this is just another great experience for them.
You make it sound like a few mates having a knock about in their local woods, when it's a very good example of the commercialisation of MTBing... Go back to the very early 00's and it was very much an informal type event with a bunch of riders knocking about digging rough lines and having a crack, documented in a couple of videos and mag articles (see dirt/sprung) it would have pettered out but for the investment of redbull (and some other sponsors) and the emergence of live streaming of less mainstream sports... Now it's an annual [i]"Event"[/i] getting plenty of coverage and exposure for any logos draped on the side of the hill and stuck on the riders...
It's a business now, and as such capitalises on riders with skill and ability beyond that of most, it also requires them to take risks with their health, so safeguards and insurance are a real requirement. You can't have it both ways claim it's all props and high-fives while redbull and specialized flog their wares off the back of it...
These two articles on Vital sum everything up for me and are well worth a read:
then
I think the rider are 'progression junkies'; riding local trails and jumps as kids - pushing to do more tricks etc. combined with natural talent/courage gets them to this place. I dont think they can stop it
Riding has progressed immensely over the past 10 years or so. There's little kids on skate parks now who are pulling tricks that would've won them the x-games 10 or 15 years ago.
It's about marketing, even the marketing for this weekend's red bull hard-line states with the course cleaning many victims last year many riders consider just finishing the course a victory. Danger and risk sell. Look how popular the isle of man tt is.
This says it better than i ever could...
Rampage was the catalyst that started my fiancé, Kyle Strait's, career. He is an insanely talented rider as we all know, but I am confident in saying if it wasn't for Rampage Kyle would have never had the opportunities he has had that have greatly shaped his career. I have been to 3 Rampages now and every year they become more complicated. To hear him reminisce of the "old days" makes me frustrated. Why does corporation greed have to ruin something so pure. But on the flip side, would NBC have ever aired Rampage if it wasn't for Red Bull?
The action sports community needs to know that this year was the hardest rampage ever to support. One of the conclusions that I came to is that Red Bull is making short term financial decisions regarding rampage. When you are fighting against the athletes rather than working with them to make this the best possible event, you guarantee its destruction. If they were to offer an environment where the athletes were free of any worries other than getting down the hill (by giving health insurance, pay, covering expenses, etc) they would loose out in a small fraction of their profits, but would ensure the longevity and progression of the sport. It made me sick to see how distracting it was for Kyle to be fighting with them every step of the way rather than being allowed to focus on his line and run down the hill. The man rarely crashes and he crashed twice, hard. And this is where is because even more dangerous. I am extremely thankful that he is safe, but can not help but wonder if this distraction effected other riders too. RB seems to care about one thing in regards to Rampage, to obtain as much as possible for as little as possible in terms of giving back. The "Show" that Rampage has turned into is something I find hard to support anymore. Which is a shame since so many people in our sport truly love Rampage for what it really was, a true freeride event.