[Closed] The road disk debacle continues - banned from French Sportives

There's got to be an emerging market for carbon fibre protective fairings developing from this on-going story.

If any of you 'things I have made' thread contributors profit from my idea, I want a cut.

What are they going to do about the large disc covered in sharp teeth?

Except that'd just lead to overheating calipers/disks?

Mehhh, unless they're closed roads, you could wind them up twice over and just go ride anyway without paying, with the now obvious get out of jail free card if anyone asked "no, I'm no freeloading off your sportive, look I'm using disks, therefore not part of your sportive at all".

What are they going to do about the large disc covered in sharp teeth?

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What are they going to do about the large disc covered in sharp teeth?

Consider it an unavoidable risk with known outcomes and not introduce more risks of a similar nature?

Other than whataboutery do you have any points to make.

What are they going to do about the large disc covered in sharp teeth?

Tell the riders to MTFU and stop using the granny ring.

where the hell am i going to get rim brakes for my fatbike?

Stopping pedaling gives about 3g of deceleration, ime, Jo.

I've had to start using extra strong fixative to stop my dentures flying out.

Just stick yer foot in behind the crown of the fork Jo. You're not likely to be going that quick anyway, right?

😆 Lee.

Tell the riders to MTFU and stop using the granny ring.

😆 😆 😆

It's a fair point though as the chain does a remarkably good job of covering a good 3/4 of the teeth.

Consider it an unavoidable risk with known outcomes and not introduce more risks of a similar nature?

It's not unavoidable: there is a picture of the solution on this thread.

You can't put a fairing on, they'd boil.
Enclosed discs could be useful as a portable grill on long trips.
Perhaps the Scottoiler chaps could find a way of rerouting burger grease to the chain?

Surely you could just uglify the discs a bit with some expandable protective beading?
I think B&Q might have a sale on.

Flog 'em to the lookalikes as 'Disc Protectors' and claim some spurious aerodynamic advantage.
There might even be a new standard in it.

This really is pathetic - has any one on here ever been 'sliced open' by a disc brake?
With the amount of times i crash Its an injury I for one would certainly expect to have been inflicted with in the last 2yrs of using disc brakes - can't say I've every heard of any mtb'er getting cut up like those rodies are going on about.
Now branding on the other hand......

F1-style Halo device on fork blade to protect riders from rotors, but give cooling airflow? 😆

has any one on here ever been 'sliced open' by a disc brake?

I did cut my hand on one a while back in a bungled bike maintenance manoeuvre.

has any one on here ever been 'sliced open' by a disc brake?

No?

Only me then?
Ah well.

What are they going to do about the large disc covered in sharp teeth?

More importantly, what are they going to do about that hard road thing?

what are they going to do about that hard road thing?

Require everyone to wear a protective layer of thin stretchy material?

No, but then how many of you have ended up under a pile of a dozen or more bikes after a 50kph crash?
No?

Only me then?
Ah well.

In a sportive? Hopefully no-one, ever

You seen some sportive riders 😯

(and i meant in a road race, but you knew that.)

Something like this shouldn't tax the designers/manufacturers too much....

[img] [/img]

No, but then how many of you have ended up under a pile of a dozen or more bikes after a 50kph crash?
No?

Only me then?
Ah well.

So that's 100% of STW riders have never been "sliced open by a disc brake" in race conditions then!!

My mate once burnt his hand (he touched it to see if it was hot 🙄 ) on an MTB disc rotor when he got to the bottom of an alpine ride. Does that count?

I'm surprised TimK's not posted...

Is there any footage of Fran Ventoso's crash? Just puzzling how a disc rotor could cause a deep cut like that. Maybe if the edge had notches in it I suppose.

edit:

just seen this:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/teams-cast-doubts-on-whether-disc-brakes-caused-francisco-ventosos-paris-roubaix-injury-221630

Seems other teams aren't convinced either

Sliced? No, cut? Yes, in fact it was a combined cut and branding from a hot disc. It was off road mind you, and it was going too fast, down an unfamiliar hill on a bike I didn't know.

Bloody hurt that did, I still have the scare to prove it.

[s]My mate [/s]A very young child once burnt his hand (he touched it to see if it was hot ) on an MTB disc rotor [s]when he got to[/s] at the bottom of an alpine ride. Does that count? 🙂

Nobody who uses a bike as a bit of sports equipment bought a disc bike anyway, they can still be made and will be bought by anyone who wants one.

Whats the problem?

*Awaits the arrival of Tim "Fingers" Kershaw to the rhread*...

Maybe they'll be banning these on the Fred Whitton next, and it's fine trying to make your square pegs fit round holes but burying yourself on a sportive under dozens of bikes at 50KPH is commendable.

What I cannot fathom out is this? WHY are rim brakes now deemed to be inadequate for descending when up until fairly recently they have been fine? The UCI called for a ban on disks and now the French follow suit, what did everyone expect them to do overrule and challenge them?

I personally cannot see the point of Disks on a lightweight bike intended for road riding / racing. How many descents will be longer and faster this year than previous years?
At what point did someone actually think "Do you know what, I'm just too fast for that and it's not capable of stopping me safely"

I'm not an expert in this field as others are but my feeling is that the whole Safety thing is an excuse to out them and also to dissipate their own heat from dangerous motor bikes getting in the way of proceedings.

[i]up until fairly recently they have been [s]fine[/s] tolerated as the only reasonably reliable and readily available solution[/i]

So why didn't All the Pro teams have everything lined up at the start of the season and roll out this new tolerated braking system?

I personally cannot see the point of Disks on a lightweight bike intended for road riding / racing. How many descents will be longer and faster this year than previous years?
At what point did someone actually think "Do you know what, I'm just too fast for that and it's not capable of stopping me safely"

It would be nice to have a braking system that didn't eat away at a key, structural part of the bike every time you used them.

As I've always said: Disc brakes are largely pointless for professional racers, but would be beneficial to Joe or Jane Average Bike Owner.

Just stick yer foot in behind the crown of the fork Jo. You're not likely to be going that quick anyway, right?

Just use your hands

What are they going to do about the large disc covered in sharp teeth?

Mandate 1x11? Can't get hit by a tooth if the chain is in the way!

Besides, it's France. Compliance with rules is optional anyway.

What I cannot fathom out is this? WHY are rim brakes now deemed to be inadequate for descending when up until fairly recently they have been fine?

You're so right. Bring back wooden rimmed wheels, I'm sure they were once deemed adequate.

Seriously. Inadequate > adequate > good > better > best

No-one's saying you can't opt for rim brakes, just that there is a new alternative. Except there isn't any more because someone's knee-jerkily decided they aren't safe, when so far I've only seen one piece of evidence that they aren't, and that evidence (one rider's opinion) was then immediately discredited when the same rider said someone else had had the same happen with the same results only for it to be proved there was an entirely different cause!

Disc brakes are largely pointless for professional racers, but would be beneficial to Joe or Jane Average Bike Owner

In terms of racing performance - this.

Those recent pro crashes with the disc rotor injuries are looking increasingly like a joke - one crash not even involving one of the teams with disc brakes fitted.

If the pros don't want them, then fine, but don't blame injuries on things that weren't even there.

Same ridiculous arguments as in every orher disc thread, bottom line- If the users wanted them you wouldn't need convince them.

What I can't figure out is why someone who uses a bike in one way, should get so upset by what sort of braking system someone who uses a bike completely differently prefers!?!

I have a disc equipped road bike. I can categorically say that they make me a far more confident rider, can descend better and brake in a more controlled (less panicky) manner and as such am a much safer rider, especially when in groups.

I'm not sure they're required in the pro peloton, but to start banning them in sportives or amateur events is wrong.

It'll be interesting to see what manufacturers do in response to this...

What next all BMX should have panniers because you think their the best way of carrying luggage?

I think the difference between this and a pro race is that one would hope a sportive would be reasonably open to people who only had one bike (albeit a fairly sporty one) - as far as I am aware you wouldn't expect a spare wheel etc. on a sportive.

That said, a spinning disc is more likely to cut than a chainring and will continue spinning as long as the bike is moving, or even for a while when not (particularly if you have mechanical fraud going on, eh?). I'm not sure of the safety argument in any case, but it is certainly a different set of considerations to what the pro peleton should be running.

The manufacturers just need to make disc only frames.. The only way to make stuff obsolete is to stop making it and bring in a new standard.. Down with rim brakes and those scared of discs!

The biggest knee jerk reaction is by all the disk brake equipped road bike owners.
Do they not see at all how a disc on the front wheel can cause injuries , especially in a high speed mass pile up?

can descend better and brake in a more controlled (less panicky) manner and as such am a much safer rider, especially when in groups.

I can't see how the braking systems makes any difference, people have been riding in groups for over 80 years without problems. Heck on the velodrome they don't even have brakes (use the fixie for controlling speed).

one would hope a sportive would be reasonably open to people who only had one bike

They aren't and have never been, you think recumbents are allowed?

It is worth noting that a sportive in France is really a race, they aren't like UK ones. I don't know whether the French run them under full UCI rules, but it wouldn't surprise me, and hence possibly the discs ban.

It is worth noting that a sportive in France is really a race, they aren't like UK ones. I don't know whether the French run them under full UCI rules, but it wouldn't surprise me, and hence possibly the discs ban.

Indeed, if you really wanted to mess up a French Sportive, then you need only turn up with a drug testing van...

Do they not see at all how a disc on the front wheel can cause injuries , especially in a high speed mass pile up?

Um, I can't.
Especially when compared to the numerous other sharp sticky-outy fast-spinny things on bikes.
Basically if any part of you hits a disc rotor, that same part of you would have been going into the wheel if the rotor wasn't there.

And the ground can cause injuries too. That tends to be quite hard and unyielding. Best ban that as well.

It is worth noting that a sportive in France is really a race, they aren't like UK ones. I don't know whether the French run them under full UCI rules, but it wouldn't surprise me, and hence possibly the discs ban.

Yes, French (and Spanish) sportives are essentially races - certainly up the sharp end. It's not uncommon to get ex-pros turning up to them for a bit of training. I've ridden a couple in Belgium and the riding standard is far superior to anything over here but by God they're fast! The only difference between a Sportive and a race is that during a Sportive everyone stops for junctions and red lights and "attacking" is seen as very poor etiquette. You ride as a group - but properly ****ing smash it!

people have been riding in groups for over 80 years without problems

Pneumatic tyres can he a blow out. Potentially lethal. Ban them.
A brake cable might snap, leaving brakes potentially lethal. Ban them.

Ban EVERYTHING!

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one would hope a sportive would be reasonably open to people who only had one bike
They aren't and have never been, you think recumbents are allowed?

Note "albeit a fairly sporty one". Recumbents are generally comfort/fun machines rather than sport machines. Anyway, recumbent riders are weird, who'd want one in their sportive? (My dad has a recumbent, I should know)

Simple soloution....round the edges of the disk.

Does any one thing this could happen to uk sportives or even club runs. Swapping over from MTB riding with big discs mainly to a rim brake Defy I just hated rim brakes but am now far happier on a discs brake Defy. Not all of us are happy doing 50 + down hill on roads.

If the users wanted them you wouldn't need convince them.

Users do want them. If you need evidence, just ask your LBS.

😆

This story is hilarious, for all the right reasons.

[quote=wilburt ]Same ridiculous arguments as in every orher disc thread, bottom line- If the users wanted them you wouldn't need convince them.
What I can't figure out is why someone who uses a bike in one way, should get so upset by what sort of braking system someone who uses a bike completely differently prefers!?!

THIS

Do they not see at all how a disc on the front wheel can cause injuries , especially in a high speed mass pile up?

I think banning them is excellent for 1 reason and 1 reason alone. And that is because last year I bought a bloody lovely rim braked road bike and the longer new tech takes to become mainstream, the longer it takes for me to decide I want another new bike.

It'll be interesting to see what manufacturers do in response to this...

I commend the French!

Disc brakes should be banned from all road bikes under international law (and while they're at it, fat bikes need to be banned as well!). They go completely against the spirit of what a road bike is about, namely minimum weight, maximum speed and aesthetic elegance.

Crazy-legs, so what you are saying is that you wouldn't be bothered if you had stopped sharply and dabbed straddling your bike when the riders behind you who aren't managing to slow down to a stop quite so well went into the back of you, wouldn't you think that a disk hitting your calf could damage you? The other sharp spinny shit on bikes are as suggested largely covered in a chain some of the time,

The Tarmac argument is stupid to be honest, it's not like some one is complaining that it's hard and it hurts and it's not like riders don't know this, look at Sagan when skilfully stayed upright riding over Cancellara's bike on the PR, it was that or pain and the riders know how negotiate the inevitable and sometimes your luck runs out, but just because they have temporarily banned disks doesn't mean they are looking at how to soften a riders fall or stop racing completely as some one might fall off.

Some tragic accidents have occurred in Cycling very recently and prior to the Motorbike incident safety issues were raised which resulted in one rider dead in a freak tragic accident. Imagine if a rider died after being cut in the neck by a disk after some one has raised a safety concern, The outcome doesn't bare thinking about.
I'm not saying it's gonna definitely happen and I'm not saying it's never going to happen, a concern has been raised and as the sports governing body it has to listen, something which the UCI doesn't always get right.

i don't know what you do for a living but let's say for instance you ride bikes as a job, a colleague raises concerns about something and the team manager passes this up and nothing's done at the top, the governing body chooses to ignore the complaint, 3 weeks later your dead. Everyone around you has to accept it was an accident and nothing could be done about it OR look at the problem, asses the likely outcomes then act on findings.

Arguing about cogs, sprockets brake levers spokes and the road surface have been categorised in the sports genetics since the dawn of the governing body and are widely accepted by most riders as a risk to yourself and others.

I think there will be a shift change once the relevant boxes have been ticked and papers shuffled. Until then this will probably rumble on much like the great wheel debate?

Quite an interesting article on how the UCI works using discs as the latest example...

http://inrng.com/2016/04/the-disk-brake-fiasco/

Crazy-legs, so what you are saying is that you wouldn't be bothered if you had stopped sharply and dabbed straddling your bike when the riders behind you who aren't managing to slow down to a stop quite so well went into the back of you, wouldn't you think that a disk hitting your calf could damage you?

I'd be more worried about 80+kg of bike and rider hitting me. It's going to hurt. They might not hit me if they had disc brakes cos they'd be able to stop in time. 😉

Bikes have lots of sharp sticky outy bits - so do riders for that matter. Brake levers, bar ends, pedals, nose of saddle. Any of those bits going into a soft squishy person is going to hurt. Chances of being cut by a rotor are virtually zero (given how well the rotor is protected behind the rear triangle or the fork) and as for having my neck sliced by one as you suggest - frankly if I'm face down on my own or someone else's wheel in a big pile up, I'm going to be in a bad way. 32 spinning bits of high tensioned wire slicing into me for a start!

I think you're just talking bollocks for the sake of it TBH.

OK, thats's fine, I'm just amazed that you consider bikes to be so sooooo dangerous, i'm surprised you can throw a leg over without half killing yourself on the deathly implements, And the Tarmac being so hard must play havoc with you.

I think most of what you put is Bollocks quite frankly but then again i haven't got Disks on a road bike so i'm not bothered in trying to convince everyone else that i made the right purchase.

Easiest solution to the whole debacle would be to enforce Alu rims OR alu tracks on Carbon rims then the scary prospect of riding such a dangerous implement might go away?

Accidents can and do happen, freak accidents are exactly that you cant replicate them in your garage with LYCRA and an old work bench, pretending everythings fine and that you didnt hurt yourself so the Pro Peleton is wrong and Lying, Good Work.

sputnik - Member

The biggest knee jerk reaction is by all the disk brake equipped road bike owners.

It's hard to see how they're knee jerking at all. Meanwhile the UCI just banned discs because of 2 imaginary accidents. If you're going to ban things for imaginary reasons, why not make it fun? Like how they contine with the minimum weight rules to stop tiny dragons flying off with people's bikes.

Meanwhile the UCI just banned discs because of 2 imaginary accidents.

A trial was being conducted. The trial has been put on hold pending an investigation. The UCI have not "just banned discs".

The only people really impacted by the trial being put on hold are World Tour teams, who don't really want it, and manufacturers, who do want it to leverage marketing.

The rest of us (other than French sportifists) are free to ride whatever we want 🙂

I'm just amazed that you consider bikes to be so sooooo dangerous, i'm surprised you can throw a leg over without half killing yourself on the deathly implements

That's my point though, I [b]don't[/b] consider bikes to be dangerous nor do I half kill myself on any bits of them so I'm really failing to see how removing two rim brakes and adding two disc brakes is going to make the blindest bit of difference safety wise.

Other than being able to stop more reliably.

So what about the hard Tarmc, "GNARMAC" if you like, 32 deadly spokes, bar ends, brake levers and saddle noses that you mentioned earlier? you sound like a man on the edge to be honest,

And how has a picture from a pro rider from a Hospital bed been construed as Imaginary? who makes up this shit? the same people who still think motors weren't used in frames i bet.

Theres a good chance that concluding a review and once the manufacturers pump more money in some people will look at it through slightly different coloured spectacles and there will be a change in attitude towards heavier bikes and slower wheel changes. Once all the teams are running them then everyones wheel changes will be as slow so the playing field will be levelled.

All this bollocks about brakes when all the Pro's want to do is go faster,

I'm really failing to see how removing two rim brakes and adding two disc brakes is going to make the blindest bit of difference safety wise.

In the context of a pro peloton, the disc brake trial is meant to establish whether it makes the blindest bit of difference safety wise. There's been a reported incident. The trial has been put on hold while that incident is being investigated. Sounds a pretty reasonable course of action.

It seems knee jerk but I think the French spotifists have taken quite a reasonable stance. If in the unlikely event that an accident was to occur you can bet that, given the current climate, questions would be asked and there would be legal action.

How has a picture from a pro rider from a Hospital bed been constued as Imaginary?

Well given that no riders from either of the 2 teams racing with disc brake equipped bikes in the race recall any incident with the rider in question...

So it's make up then on his leg? Cosmetic's Ah i see........ I thought he had claimed it was real and not Imaginary.

So it's make up then on his leg?

Nope, it's a nasty gash but the general consensus is that it had absolutely **** all to do with contact with a disc rotor.

But that's why the Trial has been halted i thought, As mrblobby said above, I didnt think it was imaginary and the letter which he wrote i also believe to be real.

Under such a serious allegation what did people expect to happen? Surely investigating this they have the relevant info and experience to find out what actually happened, i mean it's not like they have a track record on keeping shit covered up is it?

xyeti - Member

I thought he had claimed it was real and not Imaginary.

That's the thing, when you imagine things.

I don't think he's lying btw, I just think he's wrong. He admits himself he wasn't aware of the injury at the time, so he's retconned the entire incident in a way that makes sense to him, but without recourse to facts. And he's tied it into the other incident which has now been proven to have nothing to do with discs, which demonstrates how reliable his judgement is. It's a shame really, he's had a pretty traumatic experience and it's understandable why he's gone off on one.

Baring in mind though one of the few people he spoke to directly after his crash was the other Injured party sat in the back of the Ambulance both recounting what happened, its hardly surprising he's confused.

Dont forget its his job to stay out there so if he's seen an oportunity to aportion blame.......... I mean i would if i thought "Sheeeeet i ****ed up there" Ooooooh what happened to your leg,

I think i caught it on a rotor when i piled into the back of that tit,

AHHHHH ! I think thats how i did mine........ SNAP!

So now you're agreeing that it probably wasn't anything to do with rotors? As it's been as good as confirmed that the other person's injuries definitely weren't rotor inflicted...

NO, What i'm saying is this, I CAN SSEE BOTH SIDES. But until an investigation takes place.
Allegations have been made, a written letter has been submitted. I'm of the opinion that face planting into an upturned bike 'Unlikely" i know or a rider running straight into another may be unlikely it may also be likely.
However
Prior to this concerns were raised about Motor Cycles, A Cyclist died.

These concerns have to be taken as seriously as a Golfer saying "Seriously...... you want me to go out in a thunder storm and tee off" then getting struck by lightning, or a butcher saying i think that meat slicer is dangerous without the guard fitted and then loosing a finger.

It's these guys job so it has to be taken seriously, i didn't for one minute think it was make up and i cast my own aspertions and tried to picture what might have happened on Monday when i saw the story break. I do know they shared the same ambulance. They prob swapped stories and IF he was thinking how the F did this happen he may well have found an answer?

i also saw my mate get mugged and his face slashed from his chin to his temple and down his ear onto his neck neding 300 stitches, he didnt know he'd been cut. so baring in mind he'd got a couple of hundred KM's in his legs i doubt feeling that would have registered straight away. I'm awaiting the outcome.

xyeti - Member

Baring in mind though one of the few people he spoke to directly after his crash was the other Injured party sat in the back of the Ambulance both recounting what happened, its hardly surprising he's confused.

Absolutely. But that's exactly why it's no basis for the UCI to take action. You run a trial to collect evidence.

I'm still standing by the fact that i dont think they are needed on road bikes though. However using Cork Pads on plastic rims is just as stupid.

I'm still standing by the fact that i dont think they are needed on road bikes though.

Nor were;
Pneumatic tyres
QR wheels
Gears
Cable, rather than rod, operated brakes
Aero spokes
Aero in general
Electric shifting
Clipless pedals
Internal cable routing
Helmets
Lycra
Ratchet, velcro, Boa etc shoe systems
Bike computers
Power meters
Team cars
Etc, etc, etc.

None of these were actually needed. They were all part of this crazy thing called progress.

All that is needed, really, is this;
[img] [/img]

Mais, en bref.... Vous êtes des assassins!

(Hat to anyone who knows the bike by the way.)

Northwind, Yes i suppose?

But i'd imagine they wanted a STOP on the trial with immeiate effect after the accident "Just in case" with a view to a descision being made after collating their evidence. Disk brakes will make a re introduction but i think the first findings with heat dissipation will factor massively in the frame design and materials where it is attached to the frame.

I take it theres No footage of this incident then?

I still struggle to see why discs represent such a risk, but bladed spokes, for example, are perfectly OK.

But i'd imagine they wanted a STOP on the trial with immeiate effect after the accident "Just in case" with a view to a descision being made after collating their evidence. D

Why didn't they STOP motorbikes after the recent horrors?
Why didn't they STOP media and team cars after this...
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