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just been looking at goods on the fresh Friday thing.
some weeks I look on there and think to myself that I am missing something.
I have always liked bikes and bikes stuff, and have spent a lot of cash over the years. but I look on there sometimes and I feel like the bike trade are proper taking the piss.
this week alone, £700 rims. a 4.5k bike and 150 quid helmets.
now even tho I am loaded and can spend what I want on bikes and bits, I feel these type of products are pretty ridiculous.
am I alone in thinking this?
How much should they charge?
No, not alone. But the price is what some people will pay.
I'm a keen observer of diminishing returns too, but let's face it, it's not like there isn't plenty of much cheaper stuff out there, and for the most part the cheap stuff just keeps getting better. So if people want to spunk stupid money on bits, I say let them, they're the ones driving the trickle-down.
How much?
The cost to make it plus a reasonable amount (10-20%) of profit.
Never understood why a 25mm road tyre costs £55 when I can get one for my XC90 for £105, makes no sense to me.
when I look at stuff now it seems like everything has gone up by 50% in a couple of years.
I couldn't pay £700 on a single rim even if I could afford it - there are rims that will be 98% as good, aluminium and £70. And I've seen a few carbon rims dying from JRS (OK, not JRA but not doing anything we haven't done hundreds of times before on alloy rims.
£4.5k on a bike...meh. It's a good spec, but even so it's a grand less than my HB160 was.
£150 on a lid...meh. PPE innit
Tailwagger I bet if you gave it a bit of thought, you could work out why though, it's not massively complex market economy
Some stuff has always been expensive, and there's always been a cheaper version.
£700 buys me 3 sets of handbuilt wheels from Spa cycles. they last me a very long time.
The cost to make it plus a reasonable amount (10-20%) of profit
Just the cost of materials or all the costs, marketing, rent, legal etc?
As I imagine that’s not far off what each link of the chain is doing.
Thing is, there are often 3 links. Manufacturer, distributor and retailer.
Never understood why a 25mm road tyre costs £55 when I can get one for my XC90 for £105, makes no sense to me.
Economies of scale innit fam.
The cost to make it plus a reasonable amount (10-20%) of profit.
That has very little to do with price of most retail goods. The kind of extreme example is take a bottle of mineral water. What could you sell that for to a man drifting on a life raft about to die of thirst? What could you sell it for in Tesco when people have potable water at home? The bottle of water cost the same to make, but the price could be anywhere from £100000+ to £0.45.
On a less extreme scale, what a bike tyre and car tyre cost to make matters very little. One is going to be purchased to boost someone's hobby, where they want all the marginal gains on their cafe run. The other on a dismal trading estate when your car fails its MOT.
To me this is too separate questions
Have things gone up? I think things have gone up. Usual story of a weak pound. Plus the loss of some grey market stuff. I'm thinking maybe forks. But overall there is still plenty of good value stuff out there
But I'm with Ton all the way on what the cycling media focus on. £700 rims would be a classic example. I'm coming into a time in my life when I could spend what I like on a bike. But it's going to get muddy and dropped on Rocks. If not I might be nicked. I don't see that it's going to be that much better. I have demoed a few flash bits of kit. They didn't seem that amazing
An article on where to buy say Novatech hubs and which one for which job would be priceless
And then you can go and buy a really nicely spec'd hardtail for a grand, that's dripping with lovely bits that you can ride hard as hell, out the box.
We need the really expensive stuff, and the "industry" needs to push it, because it's that bleeding edge high profit stuff, and the boutique stuff that means people try really hard to compete with the stuff everyone wants in the mags, but at a lower price point.
Yeah, there's a lot of really insane price stuff out there, but that's sort of always been the case, it's just better stuff you can get for the same money now.
Bike media have always pimped overpriced gear, it's part of their Faustian pact with the industry.
Only a few mugs will actually buy the stuff you've highlighted at RRP.
You can buy a bike tyre for £14.99 that will be roughly the equivilent of your £100 car tyre
£60 bike tyres are closer to high-end racing tyres, which are £500 a pop and last half a race.
High end, relatively low volume, loads of differnt casings and widths and tread options mean huge investment in tooling for relatively low volume production. andf therefore higher prices.
In 1997 when I started riding a IRC Missle (The hard riding trail/DH tyre of choice at the time) cost £34.99, they were TERRRIBLE and, adjusted for inflation, they cost £62.18 in today's money.
If making high end bike tyres was easy money we'd see a hundred little indie direct to consumer tyre brands springing up, the fact we're not suggests that it's a little tougher than some are making out.
I'm with you! Was browsing in the LBS the other day and was properly shocked to see Maxxis tyres for £75! It was explained to me that these were the all-singing, all-dancing Exo+ blah blah. I'd known for a while that RRP was north of £50, but hadn't realised it had got that expensive. That's only about £30 cheaper than the premium brand tyres I stick on my car and last a couple of years, unlike bike tyres which I'm lucky to get 6 months out of...
...and then Hope stuff. I'm lucky enough to get mates rates on stuff like headsets and BBs. In my head they're £50ish, but I've been pricing up a new build and its suddenly now all £75, which is still marginally cheaper than on line as it includes fitting, and is a good chunk less than RRP (when did £95 for a Hope BB happen?)
...and none of this is esoteric stuff!
I know my wages haven't gone up by 50% to match... (and I know the guys selling the stuff aren't rolling in cash either)
Never understood why a 25mm road tyre costs £55 when I can get one for my XC90 for £105, makes no sense to me.
Because companies tend to cash in on the latest trends, like MAMILs trying to regain their youth by cycling, who often have the disposable income to splash out on nice new toys. 😉
Me? I stick things on an ever growing wish list until I need them or they get offered at relative bargain prices! 😆
Oh and Brexitflation.
Hatter - You make a good argument, but I think most clued-up riders would agree Maxxis have waaaaaaay too many variants in their product range.
I'm sure many of us could do a better job than their product managers of deciding which tread patterns, carcasses & compounds people will actually want and/or need.
Meanwhile you can get awesome Schwalbe tyres from Germany for £35 a pop and don't have to wade through hundreds of variants to find the one you want.
Prices have skyrocketed in the last 10 years. Bought my Mojo HD in 2011 and it was £2k, latest equivalent HD5 is £3K, so 50% more. I was looking at Commencal Meta's around 2008/2009 and for well under £2k you got a cracking spec and you got it from a shop, nowadays a shop bought bike with components worth keeping is easily £3k... Working in the trade has it's benefits, but the price of things is still ludicrous.
Never understood why a 25mm road tyre costs £55 when I can get one for my XC90 for £105
It's more interesting that Maxxis motorbike tyres seem to be a similar price to their MTB ones.
Prices have definitely gone up, and ST has also gone upmarket with it's goods/reviews. I also think it's insanity having waterproof jackets starting at £150, and helmets too. But i understand that the cheaper stuff is getting better, and I get the cheaper stuff. Also, seasoned (i.e. OLD ;-)) riders are more likely to be jaded around MTB trends, myself included!
I found this the other day in a clearout. Year 2000 LBS insurance valuation of a 1999 spec bike I'd just bought 2nd hand.
What's remarkable is how unremarkable almost everything is cost wise in today's terms, after 20 years of inflation and tech improvements.
Everything is now better, obviously, especially brakes and forks.
The frame's still gert lush, being ridden regularly, and the BB (one thing that's not better these days!) and rear mech are on the everyday commuter/errand bike. The computor is in a drawer somewhere.
Yep, we've never had it so good - if we're prepared to do a bit of shopping around.
am I alone in thinking this?
Nope.
MTB = the new golf. Fashion is the driver of costs in this sport imo.
To be honest when I first started MTbiking in late 80s you could hardly buy a cycle helmet much under £100 now you have much more choice and way cheaper swings and roundabouts mind you have a point about the Friday goods I always wonder how much they ever sell when they want £100 for a multi-tool or £50 for a set of grips???
I love it when people complain about the price of a top end component (what ever it may be) - "I was shocked at the price of xxxxx " etc.... well if you are shocked dont buy it , buy something cheaper, it possibly wont be as good (but more than likely plenty good enough, depending how cheap you go, just remember Light , Cheap , Strong pick two....) Also dont go comparing a bike component with a car component - thats a pointless exercise really - different industry, different economics.
As mountain bikers we are I feel in a very special time - we have some incredible high end stuff that performs really really well and some incredible value stuff that also performs really really well (and lots in between) enough choice to keep everyone happy - if you cant afford the high end stuff dont complain there is plenty of great affordable stuff. I cant afford a 50k car but why would I complain as my 5k 2nd hand Hyundai does a really good job.
this week alone, £700 rims. a 4.5k bike and 150 quid helmets.
That Orbea is available in a different spec from £2000 upwards. It's a decent spec alloy bike, as well. (To compare, I first spent a £1000 on a MTB - a front sus alu - back in 97 or 98. It wasn't remotely top spec even then.)
And of course bike companies send high level bikes to mags. Do car mags review entry level cars? Do people aspire to owning Tesco furniture? If you're foolish you actually believe that everyone is riding around on these things. Or driving around, sitting around.. 😀
To be honest when I first started MTbiking in late 80s you could hardly buy a cycle helmet much under £100
you must be having a laugh.
my lycra covered polystyrene thing cost about a tenner.
you must be having a laugh.
my lycra covered polystyrene thing cost about a tenner
.
They (Bell) have a graphic in their sales literature projecting that average helmet prices will drop in 1996 to $15, down from $21 in 1995. Bell's opinion: "If somebody doesn't do something quick, helmets will end up like water bottles: cheap commodity items."
From https://helmets.org/helmet96.htm a report on helmets in the 96 season.
And an ad in MBUK in 2002 - we have a box of them out in the warehouse - shows Noah's Ark selling Spesh helmets from £25 for an Air Wave to £70 for an M1.
MTB = the new golf. Fashion is the driver of costs in this sport imo.
I don't understand this. MTB is not new. I have been getting to the trails alongside a Golf club since the 1990s.
I have been building bikes for 20 years and components have never been so cheap despite the weak sterling and inflation.
But the big difference is that the finished article will be a far better,more competent, more reliable, safer and more fun bike now than in the past.
Fashion in cycling didn't start last Tuesday either. Actually fashion is a very good driver for low prices, it really helps lower the cost of parts that are not fashionable this week.
oops
I don’t understand this.
Golfists are bored of golf, not unreasonably, and are looking for a new hobby. Lots pick MTBing, and some brands have seen this and set the pricing of their wares accordingly. See also that plenty of ‘urban’ golf courses are being turned into trail centres, or plans are submitted to that effect.
I'm more annoyed by the misinformation in FGF. "Shimano's 4 piston brake technology has trickled down to SLX"
But what is rarely mentioned is that Shimano very quietly launched very good 4 piston brakes right down to Acera / Alivio level. The Germans will sell you a complete f & r set for under £100!
I’m more annoyed by the misinformation in FGF. “Shimano’s 4 piston brake technology has trickled down to SLX”
Ignorance rather than deliberate misinformation.
But then I'm a bit of a geek and I thought it only went down to Deore. Got a link to the lower brakesets?
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shbimano-br-mt420-disc-brake-set-870486
https://www.bikemag.com/gear/tested-shimano-bl-mt501-br-mt520-145-per-brake/
(review is for the slighty higher model with split lever clamp).
Easy to tell anyone who hasn't been in business making stuff:
The cost to make it plus a reasonable amount (10-20%) of profit.
Seriously, if you're making stuff and not making 50% gross margin then you're barely going to break even / probably not going to stay in business long.
Bike part costs $10 in materials and labour in Chinese factory
Bike part is sold to bike brand for $20
Bike brand sells part for $50 / £30 to UK distributor (shipping + duty added)
Distributor sells bike part for £60 to UK bike shop
Bike shops retails part for £144 (VAT included)
Cheers, every day ist ein schultag, eh?
🙂 must admit I only stumbled on them last week. Tempted to try a set but rest of family is kind of standardised on 2pot and think (but not 100%) it means keeping stock of another shape of pad. Already annoyed that the newer road stuff has subtly changed from the regular mtb pad.
Tempted by those MT420 Shimano brakes as they don't have that servo-wave nonsense which i'm sure greatly contributes to the bite point moving all over the place
My Deore M512 brakes were the only modern Shimanos I had which never did the wandery bite point thing. And I used them for about four years.
Hopefully that's carried over to the new 4-pot version.
Seriously, if you’re making stuff and not making 50% gross margin then you’re barely going to break even / probably not going to stay in business long.
Bike part costs $10 in materials and labour in Chinese factory
Bike part is sold to bike brand for $20
Bike brand sells part for $50 / £30 to UK distributor (shipping + duty added)
Distributor sells bike part for £60 to UK bike shop
Bike shops retails part for £144 (VAT included)
In an ideal world maybe. Bike shop then finds it can't sell at 50% margin as some web shop has it at 30% off and everyone wants a price match. And distributors are struggling as they're an added layer in the route to market and anything coming through them can be undercut by grey imports or a direct to consumer brand. Brand-building allows you to protect product value but that's expensive and takes time.
Online competition and ease of price searches has lowered the value of it all in the opposite of the auction price hike phenomenon. Someone is always price-shagging something devaluing the whole market for that product and similar items. I think you'd be shocked at the RRP of many things if a distributed brand had 50% of margin at each stage. Some things have high margins, some are low, the mix aims to be about right.
But yeah, £700 rims = Veblen goods.
Edit, just had a look at FGF. Those rims are £700 EACH. I'm all for nice things that are made with skill and care though, maybe they can justify it. I could spend £2k on a steel frameset so whatever floats your boat or rolls your bike.
Different industry, but I worked at a distributor for 10+ years, we dreamt of double digit margin...
Those rims are £700 EACH
Enve are £1100. Each.
And Enve is a hilariously and admirably successful marketing brand imho.
(edit, ok maybe 'hilariously' is a bit past fair. I'll go with 'interestingly'.)
Golfists are bored of golf, not unreasonably, and are looking for a new hobby. Lots pick MTBing, and some brands have seen this and set the pricing of their wares accordingly. See also that plenty of ‘urban’ golf courses are being turned into trail centres, or plans are submitted to that effect.
Yes and those brands thought they would only sell to Golfists even at the risk of pricing themselves out of the reach of their core customers. I doubt it.
It doesn't change the fact that stuff has never been so cheap. Yes there is also very expensive stuff but there has always been. Remember the price of Ti frames in the 90s, compared to now.
So you can buy an entire set of Shimano brakes F+R for £85 fully bled. Total rip off.
Those brands are the once boutique small producers that have become global mega brands (relatively speaking). They never really had a mass market following, so no loss to go for the high end. They’ve done well out of it so have expanded.
Remember the price of Ti frames in the 90s, compared to now.
This. A Marin Team Ti which I coveted in the early 90s was 5000 early 90s pounds - with no suspension, cantis and 3x7 gearing.
Helmets? On-one £10 jobbies!
Some bike shops, get up to 60% mark up on Specialized bikes - I wonder what they cost to build.
Some bike shops, get up to 60% mark up on Specialized bikes
I know what the biggest volume retailers make on those brands. Before someone goes to a local IBD and starts haggling based on what "bloke said down' pub" ... it's a fair bit below that : )
There was a news piece, just after Christmas I think, 10 years Fresh Goods or something where the author made some snide wisecrack about people complaining about the high price of the reviewed product for the whole decade.
It's nice to see my comment that after such a long period of time, most companies would have taken on board customer feedback and perhaps they should try reviewing the lower price kit most people want to buy. 🙄
I rarely venture onto the front page now because my perception of the prices of reviewed kit means I'm as likely to purchase it as I am to plait shit. £700 rims suggest my perception is not wrong. If moderately priced gear reviews, with the occasional bling kit was the normal fare, hell, I might even start buying the magazine again!
Some bike shops, get up to 60% mark up on Specialized bikes
I know what the biggest volume retailers make on those brands. Before someone goes to a local IBD and starts haggling based on what “bloke said down’ pub” … it’s a fair bit below that : )
I owe you an apology - mark up and margin are often mixed up, this time by me : ) if phone reading is an excuse I'll take it. If you meant mark up, then yes that's pretty common. Works out at under 40% margin, earlier in the thread 50%+ margin was mentioned as good business (it is but it's not always what you get partic on bikes)
I might even start buying the magazine again!
There's a magazine?
the lower price kit most people want to buy.
Folks don't want to buy the cheaper stuff, but sometimes they have to.
An article on where to buy say Novatech hubs and which one for which job would be priceless
ampthil, that would make a great article. Even better if formula and bitex and any others were included. Likewise, spokes and rims.
Folks don’t want to buy the cheaper stuff, but sometimes they have to.
A fair point, but I reckon as many spend much lower down the diminishing returns curve even if they can afford the bling, which means the vast majority of purchase volume, by choice or preferance is on the low to mid range product, which Singletrack largely ignore. I'm sure they aren't alone in that, but this is the primary cycling media I expose myself to.
You can't compare margins on full bikes and on bits. Margin on bikes around 20%, double that for parts as a ball park figure.